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MarkyMark wrote: I just cant see the LoC doing well agains the palaies, he may be toughness 6 but with perferred enemy and possible str10 the palies will force weapon him to death without eternal warrior.
For me Jim, try one game with the DP (three biomancys) and one game with the LoC, see if there is much difference!. Enfeebling the palies and tau is huge as the massed str6 becomes instal kill on failed saves (palaies and tau being 2 wounds, eldar doesnt matter as much)
He can do well because of his re-rollable 2++ save. With 5 Lvl 3 Divination psykers, there's a very good chance to get Forewarning. Combined with the Grimoire, he's getting a re-rollable 2++ save. He's got the Staff of Change (lesser gift) for S8. In combat, challenge Draigo to take him out of the picture. Then just start insta-killing some paladins. BTW, he becomes even more vicious with Precognition, re-rolling all hits and wounds. And woe to the pallies if one of the Heralds should get Misfortune. Without a psyfleman dread there, they only have a 1/3 chance to deny it.
The DP can be just as good if he gets Iron Arm but that's about a 50/50 chance only. Enfeeble + horror shooting can definitely be nasty. It really makes you want to add Coteaz in with the paladins and pray he gets Precognition for some re-rollable 2+ saves of his own. But to do that, you'd probably have to downgrade Draigon to a normal Grandmaster w/psycannon (which is actually pretty good!) and get rid of some of the upgrades. Hey....I actually like that!
zaak wrote: I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
zaak wrote: I honestly think POM + 9 shrikes w/ LW&BS, TS, AG, DS is the strongest deathstar. They are mobile, have weight of dice in shooting and bring everyone to less or equal to their initiative value in combat. Not many deathstars put out mass s8 shooting, just cc.
Not bad...durability may be an issue: POM is only 3W with 3+, and the Shrikes are more or less expendable shooters, 1W 5+ isnt very tough. This isn't really a deathstar, more like a glass cannon.
I see where you're coming from. If we are talking about deathstars acting independently without army support then warriors with 3w can eat up some rending shots, flamer templates and bolter like shots. Not much s8 shooting comes from deathstars. Only a couple need to get through (4-5 + POM) to make short work of just about anything. The problem with warriors and shrikes is T4 but there's no battlecannons or vindicators in deathstars... maybe orbital bombardment.
And because there are plenty of points leftovers, I'll even throw in the Doom
Doom - Spore
875
They have good mobility and are excellent in assault. Sorry to say, but their shooting just cannot compete. You're looking at 27 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds (against T4) and only 1.5W will go through against 2+ models.
Compare that to 3 dakkafexes - 36 TL-shots, 27 hits, 22.5 wounds (against T4) and 4W will go through against 2+ models.
Compare to the Pinkstar shooting (with Prescience) - average 67 TL-shots, 50 hits (actually more, but I'm basing on BS3 only), 42 wounds (against T4), at least 7 2+ models will fall (most likely more if you factor in BS4 by the Heralds).
As for resiliency, you're looking at 30 Wounds of units (not including the Doom) with only 5+ saves (1 with 3+). They're only T4 as well.
Against shooting by the Pinkstar (assuming they will get cover), they will lose:
67 TL-shots, 50 hits, 42 wounds, that's 28W after cover (more like 25W if you factor in the PoM's 3+)!
Tau is just as bad, as they are twin-linked (Command & Control Node) and ignore cover (Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite).
Really, the resiliency of this unit is piss-poor compared to the other deathstars. They won't even last through 2 turns of shooting!
As much as I championed them I doubt it :(. Against the Tau I reckon a white wash, but against the eldar everything will be psyhic tests on 3d6 and DTW on 5 plus (from the horror squad itself a 4plus) and against dragio wing again 5plus from the heralds and LoC and 4 plus from the squad DTW's.
Which is why i'm glad i'm not betting money
But as a fellow demon player its what i'm going with unless Necrons make it in!
I actually think that they will do well. The only problem will be that Tau will outrange them (and then jump back) and the seer council with 2+ re-rollable Invisible cover can resist their shooting (as well as screw with their shooting with Runes of Warding).
I'd like to see something similar but with everyone on a bike:
Interrorgator Chaplain - Bike, Portarack, Mace of Redemption, Digital Weapons
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Conversion Field, Digital Weapons
2xTechmarine - Servoharness, Bike, PFG (1 with Auspex)
10 Black Knights with 2 or 3 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, 4++ (3++ turboboost) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable
7-8 twinlinked Plasma Talons, 2 twinlinked plasma pistols, 2 flamers
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
When you go in to charge then the techmarines can peel off if the opponent doesn't have a 4++ invulnerable already
Grenades can drop T, WS, I by one each time you charge.
Edit: Corrected Zealot
Not bad. Better mobility without Sevrin....but have you seen the guy? He is a psychic monstrosity and way OP. That guy is a huge force-multiplier. I really don't know what Forgeworld was thinking when they designed him.
Thariinye wrote: Just a quick note, iirc ever-living should work even if the Royal Court gets swept -- they're still 'removed as casualties,' which should trigger ever-living. So they're even more resilient, and their lack of fearless doesn't hurt them as much.
Yeah, if they die before they get swept, then they can come back. However, if they get swept before they die, then no.
So it's better to kill off your characters rather than to have them survive and then the unit swept. However, if the unit doesn't get swept, then there's a 50/50 chance you killed him for nothing.
ace101 wrote: Yeah, I see, definately switch the Redeemer with LRC. Also a change that I don't know if you saw was to switch Lysander with Vulkan to get the MCTHs; this would make them much more deadly, and would also enhance the MM incase a hard target/vehicle in encountered. Sucks how you can't fit 12 terminators in a terminator DT; if FW is an option, i could switch with a CAR (Caestus Assault Ram), since its a flyer; assault vehicle; and has a melta pie-plate, and can fit more than 8 terminators.
You could if you had the Land Raider Spartan, but that LR is 300pts (maybe more). It can house only 10 terminators so you still may have to drop a couple of guys to fit everyone in, but it's definitely worth it to keep everyone together and protected. Also, the librarian with Null Zone is a good option agasint deathstars with Invuln's.
Sevrin Loth is another good option, though he is more expensive than the librarian and I don't know if he can get Null Zone. Null Zone is the shiznit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/26 20:12:25
The point of Loth is that he combines with Rad Grenades with guaranteed Enfeeble to reduce T by 2, which is very useful for ID'ing things like Paladins, Crisis Suits and Biker Nobz with the Black Knight plasma rapid-fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/26 21:29:33
Mobility:B The mobility of the Pinkstar itself is poor. However, the Lord of Change is highly mobile. His mobility will help the army, especially against the likes of Tau.
Shooting:A- Shooting is the strong point of this army. As a matter of fact, if everything is clicking (i.e. all their psychic powers go off), the Pinkstar may have the best pure shooting of all the deathstars here. The LoC himself has very good shooting. This is definitely a shooty deathstar.
Then there's the psychic powers that makes its shooting much, much more potent. Prescience gives them re-rolls to hit. Perfect Timing will take away enemy cover saves. This can be huge against eldar with re-rollable 2+ cover due to Invisibility and also to Tau gun drones with 2+ cover from Shadowsun's Stealth + Shroud. Then you've got Misfortune which will help against 2+ save models as well as Fortune.
There are 2 limitations to the Pinkstar's shooting. First, it is susceptible to psychic defense such as Runes of Warding and then to Deny the Witch. Second is its rather limited range. The range issue shouldn't be a factor except against Tau. Runes of Warding, however, may play a big part in these battles.
Assault:B The Pinkstar has poor assault. However, what it does have is excellent "anti-assault". If the right powers go off, this unit can be nigh invincible to both shooting and assault with a re-rollable 2++ Invuln! And then you've got the LoC. He can be one nasty mofo in combat with S8 hits and good resiliency. He can also be used to tarpit a unit in combat if you give him the right powers. The LoC makes an excellent complement for the Pinkstar as a counter-assault unit, but you can also play him very aggressively against certain armies like Tau.
Intangibles:B The greatest Intangibles to this army are its psychic powers. Psychic powers are a huge force-multiplier and this army has got 5 of them. The downside is that their powers may get denied and Runes of Warding can stop them right in their tracks. The rewards and exalted gifts are also big force-multipliers. Get the right gift and the LoC will be twice, maybe even 3 times harder to kill. The Grimoire can make a unit sensational at times or it can screw the daemons pretty badly as well.
If not for Runes of Warding the fickle nature of daemons, I'd probably give them an A for Intangibles.
Overall Grade:B
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
Spoiler:
Mobility:A JSJ. Jump Shoot Jump. The trademark of Tau mobility and strategy. I can't say enough how important this is to the Tau army. Thanks to Shadowsun, who should always be the Warlord in this deathstar, now they can jump 3D6" in the Assault phase. That is just crazy good! With the exception of the LoC and the seer council, none of the deathstars here will be able to catch them.
Shooting:A+ The best shooty deathstar, possibly in all of 40K. As if their shooting with JSJ wasn't good enough, they've got wargear that makes their shooting even better. The Command and Control Node basically makes all of their shooting twin-linked. Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite let's them ignore cover. The Puretide Engram Neurochip gives them Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter. And Target Locks let them split-fire and shoot at different units. Moreover, they are not affected by Night-fight thanks to Blacksun Filters.
Assault:B- Assault will forever remain a Tau weakness. However, for the Farsight-bomb, it isn't so bad. JSJ will let them get away from many assault units. The Puretide Engram Neurochip can make them Stubborn in combat and Vectored Retro-thrusters give them Hit & Run to get out of combat just in time to shoot the enemy next turn. Iridium Armor gives 1 bodyguard 2+ saves where you can allocate normal hits against. While they suck in assault, they can easily avoid it and even survive it.
Intangibles:B+ Tau has got a whole bag of tricks here. Shadowsun provides the unit with Stealth and Shroud, so if the unit can get cover, it's going to be 2+ cover. They then put all the gun drones with 2+ cover in front to absorb incoming fire. Shadowsun also let's the unit jump 3D6" in assault instead of the normal 2D6". They can twin-link their guns, ignore cover saves, shoot at different targets, become Stubborn in combat and then get out of combat as well. Probably their main weakness is their lack of psychic defense.
Overall Grade:A-
1000 Draigowing Grey Knights
Spoiler:
Mobility:C The knights can get Scout from Grand Strategy but otherwise, there is not very much mobility here. Fortunately, they have their shooting to help make up for their dismal mobility.
Shooting:A I'm actually using the Draigo-less paladin build, swapping out Draigo for a psycannon Grandmaster and Coteaz instead. Now they can get Prescience and if they're lucky, Perfect Timing (ignores cover) or Misfortune (target has to re-roll successful saves). There's also an extra psycannon now from the Grandmaster. That's 20 twin-linked S7 rending shots. Hell yeah! The only drawback is their range, which is only 24". This isn't a really a problem except possibly against Tau.
Assault:A+ An army with all force weapons, WS5, Prescience and multiple Hammerhands? Can I get another....hell yeah!
By the ways, if Coteaz gets and casts Forewarning (4++ Invuln for the unit), that means the guys with the Nemesis Force Swords will be getting 2+/3++ saves in assault.
Intangibles:A- Draigowing is a tried-and-true deathstar who has had much success. They are ultra-resilient with excellent assault and excellent shooting as well. Psychic powers are also a boon for this unit. More importantly, they are less reliant on them compared to the Pinkstar. Thus, Runes of Warding won't affect them as much. They will dare assault units to assault them and can shoot it out with the best of them thanks to their ability to absorb punishment. They are a perfectly balanced deathstar with the only exploitable weakness being their lack of mobility. Moreover, while it doesn't matter in my test game, they can be made scoring. This is a huge boon in objectives-based games and almost an autowin for missions like the Relic.
Overall Grade:B+
1000 Jetseer Council Deldar
Spoiler:
Mobility:A+ Without a doubt, the fastest deathstar ever. Nuff said.
Shooting:C+ Pretty poor, though Destructors, if placed properly, can do some damage. Overall, this unit isn't going to win by its shooting.
Assault:B+ Though it lacks power weapons, the assault capabilities of this unit is often under-estimated. It kills with volume of quality attacks. Guide/Prescience gives the WS5 warlocks accuracy. Doom and witchblades means that any hit is almost guaranteed to wound. Misfortune will force the enemy to re-roll saves. Invisibility means enemies are hitting them on 5's. Fortune makes them highly durable in combat and every warlock is a character and so can accept/issue challenges. All these buffs add up to make them much more effective in combat than most people think. While they like the quantity of attacks of some of the other deathstars, they make up for it with quality of attacks....and then they can Hit & Run out of combat just to use Destructor on you and charge right back into combat.
Intangibles:A The seer council is all about its intangibles. They've got so many tricks up their sleeves it's not even funny. They have awesome, force-multiplying psychic powers, the best psychic defense in the game currently and jaw-dropping resiliency (how about re-rollable 2+ cover?). Their weakness used to be that you can tie them up in combat, but by allying in the Baron, that is no longer a weakness as they can get out of combat with Hit & Run. Runes of Witnessing cancels out enemy Runes of Warding so the only real psychic defense against them are the Space Wolf Rune Priests. Finally, they've got the mobility to get to anywhere they need to. No unit is safe from them.
And he's already beaten me once with his Tau before. Thus, he would make the perfect test partner to go up against my paladins and daemons.
1000 Pinkstar Daemons
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (Re-roll Invuln's, Fleshbane), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Useless power, Prescience, Flickering Fire
I deploy my horrors in a line with the Heralds behind them.
I hide my LoC behind the ruins.
As soon as I finished my deployment, I begin to realize just how bad it was. Crap....I think I may have just gave my opponent the game! Oh well, too late....he's already deploying his guys now.
My opponent infiltrates his army about 18" away from my guys.
Overview of our deployment and his infiltration. Now I am out in the open and just waiting for him to stick it up my a**.
They then rain hell on my horrors. I make a respectable number of saves. However, I still lose 11 horrors and 2 of my Heralds.
They then jump back 15".
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 0, Tau: 344
Daemons 1
I cast Prescience on my horrors. I use the Grimoire on the LoC. However, it reduces him to a 6++ Invuln instead!
LoC flies up and then runs forwards, hoping for the protection of the central terrain. Horrors need to spend the Movement getting back into coherency and cannot even fire because I need to run in the Shooting phase to get back into coherency as well.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Tau 2
Tau twin-links their guns (they would do this every turn) and take away cover from my LoC. Because of my pitiful 6++ save only (re-rollable), I lose my LoC. Target lock missile pods also shoot down 2 pink horrors.
Tau then jumps back 7".
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 0, Tau: 667
Daemons 2
I am fighting to the very last warpspawn. Horrors cast Perfect Timing on Farsight's unit and Prescience on themselves. He denies one of my Herald's shooting!
Horrors move up.
Shooting only kills 3 drones.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 36, Tau: 667
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Tau 3
Tau advances.
Fortunately, I got off the Grimoire last turn. Tau shooting only takes out 3 horrors this turn.
And now he's back behind cover for the 2+ cover save.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 36, Tau: 694
Daemons 3
I cast Prescience and Perfect Timing. Unfortunately for me again, the Grimoire fails! Ughh! Well, that's game.
I manage to shoot down 5 more drones, but I can't even manage to break 100 VP's.
That was a complete domination by Tau. Going second really hurt the daemons because they did not get a chance to cast any of their powers. Then I made a huge mistake in deployment, leaving my guys and more importantly, my Heralds, vulnerable to the Tau onslaught. Finally, it didn't help that I failed with the Grimoire 2 out of the 3 turns! This is one of the reasons why daemons will have a hard time winning consistently. When they're on, they are crazy good and can beat any army out there. But when they're not, well, this is the result as this game demonstrated.
Oh well, I thought my daemons would have problems against Tau. I was right.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Prescience, Useless power, Flickering Fire
Daemons got some really good powers this time. Short of Perfect Timing, which really isn't necesary in this matchup, I got all the powers that I wanted. Moreover, I got 2 Forewarnings, thus allowing me to buff up the Invuln's of both units. This is when Tzeentch is at its best - Forewarning + Grimoire = stupid, what-the-heck-was-GW-thinking, invincible, cannot-be-killed units. The best you can do is to hope they fail their Grimoire or to go after the unit without the Grimoire's protection. Hellfire Gaze couldn't come at a better time for the LoC. That's a S8 AP1 lance shot for the LR Spartan.
Space marine strategy will be to go straight after the horrors. Forget about shooting...it won't do much of anything. It just doesn't have the volume of shots to do much to the daemon army. Daemon strategy will be to just destroy the LR (probably via assault) and then to just dakka the crap out of those terminators.
Sevrin casts Invisibility on the Spartan, which moves 12" and then pops smokes. 2+ cover, baby.
Daemons 1
Powers cast: Precognition and Forewarning on Big Bird, Prescience and Forewarning on the Pinkstar. Misfortune fails to go off on the LR (denied) and the Grimoire reduces the LoC's Invuln to 5++.
Horrors move back 6". The LoC swoops forwards 24".
The Warp Storm would do nothing of significance the entire game.
Big Bird shoots at and pens the Spartan with his Hellfire Gaze. However, the Spartan would pass its 2+ cover save.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Space Marines 2
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Sevrin casts Iron Arm (+2 S/T), Endurance on the unit and changes his armour into a 2++ invuln. He does, however, suffer perils while casting one of his abilities. Only 1W remaining.
Spartan goes around the LoC and then moves flat-out another 6" to get dangerously close to the horrors. I admit that this is a mistake on my part. I forget that there is a risk to being so close to the enemy....
Daemons 2
Daemons cast all their psychic powers. For the 2nd straight turn, the Grimoire fails to go off and instead reduces my LoC to 5++ once again.
Now I remember about the "risk". Horrors move forwards to try to surround the LR. The LoC lands and prepares to assault.
Horrors run but don't run far enough to completely enclose the LR. The LoC fires at the Spartan but fail to pen or glance this time.
He then charges.
Fortunately for the marines, he explodes the tank and I am able to place the entire unit on the table.
15 horrors get caught in the explosion. Only 4 dies.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 295, Space Marines: 36
Actually, things aren't too bad for the marines. They're actually in a pretty good position. Neither units of daemons are protected by the Grimoire currently. All the marines need to do is to multi-charge, putting Sevrin in a challenge against the LoC. Then kill some pink horrors and let Daemonic Instability do the rest. If they get lucky, Daemonic Instability may even be able to wipe out the LoC!
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Space Marines 3
Sevrin casts Iron Arm (+1 S/T only) and 2++ Invuln on himself and Endurance on the unit. It's a shame daemons aren't Fearless. Otherwise, he would cast Invisibility and Terrify instead.
Vulkan flames the horrors, hitting 6 and only killing 2.
Marines than multi-charge. Sevrin issues a challenge. Big Bird accepts.
Big Bird fails to stomp a mudhole in Sevrin's face as he passes all 5 Invuln saves. Terminators and Vulkan then proceed to kill 5 horrors.
6 more horrors would then succumb to Daemonic Instability! However, the LoC passes his DI test on a 4!!!
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 295, Space Marines: 135
Daemons 3
This is the turn everything goes right for the daemons. They successfully casts all their powers, including Misfortune on the marines who fail to deny. The Grimoire goes off on the horrors for some re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
With Misfortune, the LoC is able to take out Sevrin. Paladins pass all their saves. However, they cannot penetrate the re-rollable 2++ saves of the horrors.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 500, Space Marines: 135
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Space Marines 4
Overview of the top of Turn 4. Things aren't looking too good for marines.
Big Bird goes super-saiyan this turn. Precognition + Misfortune = 4 dead terminators. Horrors also put 2W on Vulkan. Marines remain frustrated at invincible horrors.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 660, Space Marines: 135
Daemons 4
Again, everything goes off for daemons. They are just crazy when this happens!
Vulkan challenges the LoC to try to stem the blood loss. Marine goal currently is just to try to survive a potential tabling.
His sacrifice is not in vain as the terminators survive another turn of combat.
Even with several mishaps - 2 failed grimoires - the daemons are still very strong. But when all 4 wheels are turning (as was the case in the 2nd half of the battle), daemons are just ridiculously crazy-good. I really think that they are unbeatable with the right psychic powers and when they are making their grimoire tests. Re-rollable 2++ is just crazy. I really don't know what the heck GW was thinking when they designed this codex. Other than the turn they charged, even the almighty hamminators were helpless in combat.
The LoC is perhaps the single most powerful character in the game today. I kid you not. He wiped out the entire army all by himself. The horrors didn't kill a single thing (well, they did put 2W on Vulkan, who the LoC insta-killed anyways). Of course it helped that the terminators were stuck in battle with a unit they couldn't really hurt, but the offensive potential of the LoC (and his resiliency) is just sic! Marines did have a small chance to win it on the turn they assaulted, but they just couldn't kill the LoC through Daemonic Instability.
This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2013/04/28 16:14:46
If your going with the second list for gk, then its going to be a shooting game, and I think the gk will pull it off with the 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls.
Not sure about tau but Im guessing most of the guards have a 3+ save and no invun?
with jsj, Im guessing there will be no combat as the pallistar is to slow to catch the tau. I will be a shooting game.
tuiman wrote: If your going with the second list for gk, then its going to be a shooting game, and I think the gk will pull it off with the 20 psycannon shots with re-rolls.
Not sure about tau but Im guessing most of the guards have a 3+ save and no invun?
with jsj, Im guessing there will be no combat as the pallistar is to slow to catch the tau. I will be a shooting game.
I'm going with the new GKGM/Coteaz list. That's 5 psycannons with Prescience.
Tau will have 2+ cover! Shadowsun gives the unit Stealth + Shrouded. As long as they remain in cover, they'll going to be damn hard to shoot down. First the GK's need to get past 13 drones with 2+ cover!!!
GK's can compete in the shooting game....if Coteaz can get Perfect Timing. Otherwise, it may be a victory for Tau (at least that's my prediction).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/26 22:45:50
I was thinking about this myself, going to the unusual routes, SM and BA Bikers generally, but I came to this:
Lucius Lvl 3 Slaaneshi Termie Sorceror: Power Axe, Force Staff, Spell Familiar, 4++, VotLW
20 Noise Marines: 2 Blast Masters, 17 Sonic Blasters, all CCW's, Icon, Champion has Doom Siren and PF/LC, VotLW
Just under 1000pts
Lots of models and FNP, I5 for combats, 3 Champs for challenges, slow but heavy shooting to whittle down enemies, Sorceror boosts all Sonic Weapons. Combat is reasonable but won't stand to Paladins.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/26 23:02:28
Sorry, I'm a little behind on my evaluations of the deathstars. I will get to them all eventually. I actually like your MANz deathstar but won't probably evaluate it until tomorrow.
Tonight I have 2 games planned, both of which will involve Tau.
ace101 wrote: Yeah, I see, definately switch the Redeemer with LRC. Also a change that I don't know if you saw was to switch Lysander with Vulkan to get the MCTHs; this would make them much more deadly, and would also enhance the MM incase a hard target/vehicle in encountered. Sucks how you can't fit 12 terminators in a terminator DT; if FW is an option, i could switch with a CAR (Caestus Assault Ram), since its a flyer; assault vehicle; and has a melta pie-plate, and can fit more than 8 terminators.
You could if you had the Land Raider Spartan, but that LR is 300pts (maybe more). It can house only 10 terminators so you still may have to drop a couple of guys to fit everyone in, but it's definitely worth it to keep everyone together and protected. Also, the librarian with Null Zone is a good option agasint deathstars with Invuln's.
Sevrin Loth is another good option, though he is more expensive than the librarian and I don't know if he can get Null Zone. Null Zone is the shiznit.
I checked the psykers FAQ, and Loth knows every codex power except Gate & Dome, so he can use Null, Invuln spell, and force weapon in the same turn. He is a beat stick, and you could model the fw as an ax to get AP2
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/26 23:20:37
The model has a axe anyway Ace, so no issue there!. I have the model just never used his rules
Yep you are right Jy2, as long as you pass the grimoure test you are fine!, if not you are screwed.
Used LoC tonight, had the insta kill warlord trait took out 3 wraiths then DP swept the destroyer lord, then insta killed two spyders and DP insta killed 6 scarab bases and another lord was swept,
In second game against a farsight bomb, they killed 6 horrors as I went to ground for 3 cover then LoC flew over, took all the shooting not losing a wound, took one wound on overwatch (thanks to 4 plus FNP) then challenged and insta killed farsight and swept the unit. The staff of change blowing up characters is also fun!. Yes he is a beast, just the force weapons worry me a lot! Hopefully your grimoure rolls are good
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
Dozer Blades wrote: This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
Nobody is forcing you to read this thread.
I can say that I, for one, am very interested in seeing the outcome of these match-ups. Deathstars may not be as viable as they were in fifth edition, but that doesn't mean they can't still curbstomp armies that aren't prepared for them. Moreover, having read many of jy2's battle reports, I know that this bloodbath will be well worth watching.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 00:44:05
DT:80+S++G++M--B--IPw40k11+D+A+++/cWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 8000, mostly painted
14000, all over the place
I've played/played against Ravenwing, but despite it's mobility, I think the 3+ without access to an invulnerable saves leaves them, well, vulnerable similar to Death Company. The Tau and Nob Bikers work around this by being multi-wound and/or having 4+ cover save.
Did you even look at the list?
Azrael gives them a 4+ invuln, as well as rolling Telepathy for Invisibility.
Sevrin Loth can also cast Endurance on them for FNP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 00:57:52
Azrael kills their mobility, too. The 4++ is nice, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure it's worth it (particularly given Azrael is over 200 points with no Eternal Warrior...). Personally, I'd rather take an attached Techmarine on a bike with a PFG. That also opens up the option of a second Librarian rolling Telepathy for Invisibility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 01:02:56
DT:80+S++G++M--B--IPw40k11+D+A+++/cWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 8000, mostly painted
14000, all over the place
Damn, just played against Sevrin -head Loth last night. Lol. He was in a 50-man blob squad.
Only had 1 S8 shooting in my army - soulgrinder phelgm - which I shot at his blob squad (with Sevrin in front). He failed all but 1 Look-Out-Sirs and then proceeded to roll a for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat.
Damn, you can get 10 biker units? I like it! I will add this to the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
You can, and conga-line them into CC. Not entirely sure why he put Sevrin in the front really, since he becomes majority T3 and then all he has is a 2+ save, which he is LOS ing. Surely the point of the blob is to protect him Or was it Ordnance?
I think RW are a dark horse here because people seriously underestimate Hit and Run. They have the mobility and assault potential to catch the shooty Deathstars and the mobility and guns to kite, shoot, and counter-charge the assault deathstars, and then hit and run out to do it all over again. They do hugely hinge on Invisibility though, I have no idea what BKs are like without it (I've rolled invisibility in every game for the past 17 games... what) and are not as durable having only 1w each. Blind is also a surprise, although I have no idea how it works in multiple initiative units. Does it test on majority or what?
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Azrael kills their mobility, too. The 4++ is nice, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure it's worth it (particularly given Azrael is over 200 points with no Eternal Warrior...). Personally, I'd rather take an attached Techmarine on a bike with a PFG. That also opens up the option of a second Librarian rolling Telepathy for Invisibility.
How does Azrael kill their mobility? They still can move 12", scout, and turbo 12", all they have to do is conga-line and remain in coherency. Azrael is majority T5 in the bike unit, and he won't be in challenges- that will be left to Sevrin.
The problem is the 3" invuln bubble only stretches out so far, and having two more Bike ICs pushes the points over 1000.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/27 01:12:44
Dozer Blades wrote: This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
Some people just can't have fun with this game.
Those people can go powerlist and pay 2 win against each other in a dark basement somewhere, preferably far away from myself.
The problem is there's no such thing as cutting edge armies. The closest thing to it is Tony Kopach's ThunderStorm list with 3x Thunderfire and 3x Stormtalon.
Everything else is speculation at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 02:13:55
I think there are plenty of cutting edge armies with the plethora of new codices that are being released now. It's all about balance now which these types of armies are sorely lacking... Too many points tied up in some uber army of one units.
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
What about a Blood Angel ally:
Interrogator Chaplain - Bike, Auspex, Digital, Portarack, Mace of Redemption
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Digital, PFG (Try to get Invisibility)
Techmarine - Bike, PFG
BA Librarian - Lvl 1, Bike, (Biomancyx2 Enfeeble or Endurance would be best)
10 Black Knights with 2 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, Auspex, 4++ (3++ turboboost, 2++ with invisibility) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable, 5+ FNP 8 twinlinked Plasma Talons
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), at least a 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
Techmarine could break off prior to the first charge to suck up overwatch
I wanted a Sanguinary priest instead of the Techmarine for FnP and Furious Charge but they only affect BA
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/27 03:34:06
Jy2 check pg 38 jink, no 3+ cover for nob bikers. 4+ when turbo boost now but they always get 4+ from exhaust fumes. Not huge but wanted you to know so #s aren't skewed.
Dozer Blades wrote: I think there are plenty of cutting edge armies with the plethora of new codices that are being released now. It's all about balance now which these types of armies are sorely lacking... Too many points tied up in some uber army of one units.
What exactly is a 'cutting edge' army? The only 'cutting edge' I see is 3 ABarges with Destroyer Lord Spam and Helldrakes.
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
What about some Blood Angel allies:
Interrogator Chaplain - Bike, Mace of Redemption
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, PFG (Try to get Invisibility)
BA Sanguinary Priest - Bike
BA Librarian - Bike, Epistolary (Biomancy)
10 Black Knights with 2 grenade launchers
T5, 3+ Armor, 4++ (3++ turboboost, 2++ with invisibility) Cover, 4++ Invulnerable, 5+ FNP 8 twinlinked Plasma Talons
Zealot (Fearless, reroll all misses on charge), at least a 5+ DtW, Hit and Run
Could drop the Mace or a BK and squeeze in a 2nd PFG
Edit - Nevermind I just saw the BAFAQ that FNP and Furious Charge is BA only
I'm not sure what the BA bring to the table. Azrael can get the Furious Charge warlord trait already. Also it's single force org chart. Sevrin Loth gives FNP from endurance, because Sang Priests don't work on Dark Angels.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/27 03:32:13
I'm not sure what the BA bring to the table. Azrael can get the Furious Charge warlord trait already. Also it's single force org chart. Sevrin Loth gives FNP from endurance, because Sang Priests don't work on Dark Angels.
Biomancy on a Bike... Sevrin Loth is definitely a better Psyker.
Mobility:B The mobility of the Pinkstar itself is poor. However, the Lord of Change is highly mobile. His mobility will help the army, especially against the likes of Tau.
Shooting:A- Shooting is the strong point of this army. As a matter of fact, if everything is clicking (i.e. all their psychic powers go off), the Pinkstar may have the best pure shooting of all the deathstars here. The LoC himself has very good shooting. This is definitely a shooty deathstar.
Then there's the psychic powers that makes its shooting much, much more potent. Prescience gives them re-rolls to hit. Perfect Timing will take away enemy cover saves. This can be huge against eldar with re-rollable 2+ cover due to Invisibility and also to Tau gun drones with 2+ cover from Shadowsun's Stealth + Shroud. Then you've got Misfortune which will help against 2+ save models as well as Fortune.
There are 2 limitations to the Pinkstar's shooting. First, it is susceptible to psychic defense such as Runes of Warding and then to Deny the Witch. Second is its rather limited range. The range issue shouldn't be a factor except against Tau. Runes of Warding, however, may play a big part in these battles.
Assault:B The Pinkstar has poor assault. However, what it does have is excellent "anti-assault". If the right powers go off, this unit can be nigh invincible to both shooting and assault with a re-rollable 2++ Invuln! And then you've got the LoC. He can be one nasty mofo in combat with S8 hits and good resiliency. He can also be used to tarpit a unit in combat if you give him the right powers. The LoC makes an excellent complement for the Pinkstar as a counter-assault unit, but you can also play him very aggressively against certain armies like Tau.
Intangibles:B The greatest Intangibles to this army are its psychic powers. Psychic powers are a huge force-multiplier and this army has got 5 of them. The downside is that their powers may get denied and Runes of Warding can stop them right in their tracks. The rewards and exalted gifts are also big force-multipliers. Get the right gift and the LoC will be twice, maybe even 3 times harder to kill. The Grimoire can make a unit sensational at times or it can screw the daemons pretty badly as well.
If not for Runes of Warding the fickle nature of daemons, I'd probably give them an A for Intangibles.
Overall Grade:B
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
Mobility:A JSJ. Jump Shoot Jump. The trademark of Tau mobility and strategy. I can't say enough how important this is to the Tau army. Thanks to Shadowsun, who should always be the Warlord in this deathstar, now they can jump 3D6" in the Assault phase. That is just crazy good! With the exception of the LoC and the seer council, none of the deathstars here will be able to catch them.
Shooting:A+ The best shooty deathstar, possibly in all of 40K. As if their shooting with JSJ wasn't good enough, they've got wargear that makes their shooting even better. The Command and Control Node basically makes all of their shooting twin-linked. Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite let's them ignore cover. The Puretide Engram Neurochip gives them Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter. And Target Locks let them split-fire and shoot at different units. Moreover, they are not affected by Night-fight thanks to Blacksun Filters.
Assault:B- Assault will forever remain a Tau weakness. However, for the Farsight-bomb, it isn't so bad. JSJ will let them get away from many assault units. The Puretide Engram Neurochip can make them Stubborn in combat and Vectored Retro-thrusters give them Hit & Run to get out of combat just in time to shoot the enemy next turn. Iridium Armor gives 1 bodyguard 2+ saves where you can allocate normal hits against. While they suck in assault, they can easily avoid it and even survive it.
Intangibles:B+ Tau has got a whole bag of tricks here. Shadowsun provides the unit with Stealth and Shroud, so if the unit can get cover, it's going to be 2+ cover. They then put all the gun drones with 2+ cover in front to absorb incoming fire. Shadowsun also let's the unit jump 3D6" in assault instead of the normal 2D6". They can twin-link their guns, ignore cover saves, shoot at different targets, become Stubborn in combat and then get out of combat as well. Probably their main weakness is their lack of psychic defense.
Overall Grade:A-
1000 Draigowing Grey Knights
Mobility:C The knights can get Scout from Grand Strategy but otherwise, there is not very much mobility here. Fortunately, they have their shooting to help make up for their dismal mobility.
Shooting:A I'm actually using the Draigo-less paladin build, swapping out Draigo for a psycannon Grandmaster and Coteaz instead. Now they can get Prescience and if they're lucky, Perfect Timing (ignores cover) or Misfortune (target has to re-roll successful saves). There's also an extra psycannon now from the Grandmaster. That's 20 twin-linked S7 rending shots. Hell yeah! The only drawback is their range, which is only 24". This isn't a really a problem except possibly against Tau.
Assault:A+ An army with all force weapons, WS5, Prescience and multiple Hammerhands? Can I get another....hell yeah!
By the ways, if Coteaz gets and casts Forewarning (4++ Invuln for the unit), that means the guys with the Nemesis Force Swords will be getting 2+/3++ saves in assault.
Intangibles:A- Draigowing is a tried-and-true deathstar who has had much success. They are ultra-resilient with excellent assault and excellent shooting as well. Psychic powers are also a boon for this unit. More importantly, they are less reliant on them compared to the Pinkstar. Thus, Runes of Warding won't affect them as much. They will dare assault units to assault them and can shoot it out with the best of them thanks to their ability to absorb punishment. They are a perfectly balanced deathstar with the only exploitable weakness being their lack of mobility. Moreover, while it doesn't matter in my test game, they can be made scoring. This is a huge boon in objectives-based games and almost an autowin for missions like the Relic.
Overall Grade:B+
1000 Jetseer Council Deldar
Mobility:A+ Without a doubt, the fastest deathstar ever. Nuff said.
Shooting:C+ Pretty poor, though Destructors, if placed properly, can do some damage. Overall, this unit isn't going to win by its shooting.
Assault:B+ Though it lacks power weapons, the assault capabilities of this unit is often under-estimated. It kills with volume of quality attacks. Guide/Prescience gives the WS5 warlocks accuracy. Doom and witchblades means that any hit is almost guaranteed to wound. Misfortune will force the enemy to re-roll saves. Invisibility means enemies are hitting them on 5's. Fortune makes them highly durable in combat and every warlock is a character and so can accept/issue challenges. All these buffs add up to make them much more effective in combat than most people think. While they like the quantity of attacks of some of the other deathstars, they make up for it with quality of attacks....and then they can Hit & Run out of combat just to use Destructor on you and charge right back into combat.
Intangibles:A The seer council is all about its intangibles. They've got so many tricks up their sleeves it's not even funny. They have awesome, force-multiplying psychic powers, the best psychic defense in the game currently and jaw-dropping resiliency (how about re-rollable 2+ cover?). Their weakness used to be that you can tie them up in combat, but by allying in the Baron, that is no longer a weakness as they can get out of combat with Hit & Run. Runes of Witnessing cancels out enemy Runes of Warding so the only real psychic defense against them are the Space Wolf Rune Priests. Finally, they've got the mobility to get to anywhere they need to. No unit is safe from them.
Overall Grade:A-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/27 08:19:32
Just played 2 games today - Tau vs Grey Knights and Tau vs Daemons. Stay tuned for the BR's coming out tomorrow (Saturday).
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I think everyone will have slightly varied opinions... I think you are better off just deciding on a few and playing them otherwise you will never face them off on eachother....lol
Don't worry. I still plan to play primarily my original 4 deathstar lists, though there may be a "guest" deathstar matchup between the original 4 and armies in the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
BaconUprising wrote: I want the horrors to win butm afraid I'm gonna have to say the tau will win...
Tau is definitely very strong. Daemons have potential, but they can hurt their chances with even 1 bad roll of the dice (especially if they roll bad on the Grimoire).
bocatt wrote: If I'm reading this right, the Dais of Destruction acts like a regular raider so 10 man capacity
Would:
Asdrubael Vect
Drazhar
7x Incubi + Klaivex with all the upgrades
all on a Dais of Destruction (that's still only ten models)
for 921 pts, be worth throwing at someone? It's not the full 1000, but man can they rip and tear
Not viable.
They've got speed. They've got hitting power. But they've got no resiliency whatsoever. You're talking about T3 guys with only 3+ saves. When Vect fails even his 1st save, chances are that he's getting insta-killed by S6 horror shooting, S6/7 Tau shooting or S7 psycannons. Drazhar's got no Invuln against rending psycannons or Tau plasma. This is truly a glass jaw deathstar.
gpfunk wrote: Draigowing is only lacking in mobility which is why I think they'll suffer in most of these match ups. In situations where they can't force the issue, they will struggle. The farsight bomb will be able to completely outrun them with their assault moves while peppering them with fire. Same with the Seer Council. I think that they have a fair shot if they get average rending with their psycannons and the Tau Bomb gets less than average assault jumps.
Still...go paladins! Draigo must carve his name in Farsight's chest!
And also the Baron.
I agree. Their shooting is good, but most of their opponents will be getting 2+ save of some sort. Farsight's unit will give them problems. Horror shooting may hurt also, but at least they've got a 5+ Deny the Witch against them along with 2+ 2W models. The seer council will struggle against them as they have poor shooting (compared to the other deathstars on my list). The seer council does most of its damage in assault but they will struggle against 2+ models. What Draigowing needs to beat these 2 armies is favorable psychic powers - either Perfect Timing to ignore cover or Misfortune to counter-act Fortune (and, of course, Prescience).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 08:10:15
Its probabilly to late now, but what do you think of the harlestar? Karandras' infaltrating the unit to 12-18 inches away from enemy and with first turn *likily with vect* you move and run forward to be VERY close to the enemy. Tau CAN get out of charge raneg with good JSJ but if they fail they are in combat, then they lose.
Tanky with 2+ re-rollables and will stop pinkstars powers with RoWing. We know that a harlestar beats a palliestar if they meet in combat, which they will unless you kill them first turn. The only other one that can out menover them is the seer council, but they want to be in combat. And that will be a massive hit and run fest.
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
I don't believe you can take allies of the same army.
This is a very resilient and extremely dangerous deathstar in assault. My only problem with it is that it needs some type of delivery system. Slow and Purposeful makes them even slower than slow. They'll never catch some of the other deathstars.
As much as I like this deathstar, I've got to say, "Sorry, not viable unless you can somehow get them into some type of fast transport."
I'd take Zogwart just for the hilarity of it. It'll be worth it just to see the look on the opponent's face when Zogwort turns Draigo or Sevrin Loth to a squig. Just thinking about it makes me chuckle.
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++, Orb
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
Harbringer of Despair w/ Veil of Darkness
Harbringer of Despair
Harbringer of Despair
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
This is how a supercourt looks like, two rerolls, Veil for mobility, 3 AP1 templates even when getting charged, all but 3 guys dont have a 3++, you have 5 scythes and 5 shackles...
Is this even legal? I don't have my codex currently, but can you even join a member of a Royal Court to another Royal Court?
Eldrad using own powers (see fortune...)
Karandras
Vect
6 harlequins with kisses
2 harlequins with kisses and fusion pistols
Troupe master with power axe
Shadowseer with kiss.
All this meets up to 940 odd points, and 600pts of it one 3 models.
Resiliency. stealth plus shrouded leads to a constant 4+ cover, 2 + in cover. Not that survivable. Add in fortune *which WILL go off, he can try twice, rolls 3 dice and picks lowest, and RoW and RoWitnessing cancel each other out* and that become a lot better. Both Karandras and Vect can tank at the front of the unit with there 2+/+ re-rollable. Karandras at front to LOS onto vect for AP2. Speed is an issue but karandras lets his unit infaltrate closer. Then movement and fleet should catch up.
In combat on the charge thats 36 rending wounds which re-roll 1's and to wound *doom will also go off...*, 7 AP3 attacks that wound on 3's and will hit on 3's, re-rolling. 7 stength 8 AP2 hits and 3 woud on 2's ignore armour hits. In other words it hits like a brick. Hit and run means we can keep FC and keep shooting in with fusion pistols + vects ap2 blast. So, what do you think, im sure you have already thought of them.
While its mobility isn't the greatest, at least the Harliestar is a tried and true deathstar with some tournament success. I prefer the seer council over the harliestar, but I think it is good enough to warrant a place in my Deathstars Under Consideration list. Added.
Dozer Blades wrote: Deathstars aren't competitive in sixth edition unless a TO specifically designs their tournament to buff them. A veteran player playing a balanced army will beat a less experienced player playing a deathstar in this edition. Sixth edition does cater well though to what I often refer to as a quasi deathstar. There is no one unit now that can single handedly win a game but there are definitely some units that can go a long ways. For instance Dark Harliestar looked promising... Too many points though sunk in one unit that can only hold one objective at the end of a game. Maybe a true deathstar will eventually emerge but the direction I see in sixth edition so far is not a good indication.
I myself don't really run deathstars currently, though I do run mini-stars (Necron wraithwing). I think deathstar armies are viable and that you can have a balanced deathstar army, though I wouldn't suggest actually running a 1000-pt deathstar in a normal game - it is just too unbalancing. Now I'm not saying deathstar armies are the best armies out there - they're not - however, they can compete even against some of the best armies today. It all depends on what you surround your deathstar with. Some armies have better supporting units than others. Grey knights, eldar/dark eldar and orks can all run deathstar armies that are also good TAC armies because they can surround those deathstars with cheap and efficient complementary units.
Siphen wrote: I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
I'm rooting for the Tau, but I don't think they can win. They'll struggle to kill even the Baron in a single round of shooting (let alone all the other 3+/4++ rerollable). Once in combat, the Seer Council will sweep them.
Against the Daemons, they'll always be snap-firing at the LOC. Even with monster-hunter, hitting on 6's is too much for them (unless he flubs the gift rolls and doesn't get 3+ armor, reroll invuls, or fnp). Once in combat, the LOC stands a decent chance of sweeping them.
As dumb as it would be, I think it would be funny if two deathstars managed to do nothing against each other. There are at least 2 units that can get a 2++ re-rollable, so it's at least possible.
Actually, Draigowing, the Pinkstar and Nob bikers are better because they are scoring. Being scoring makes a huge difference, making a unit that you can ignore now a unit that you are forced to deal with. And scoring deathstars have a huge advantage in the Relic mission (which, IMO, is a poorly designed and unbalanced mission) as well as the Emperor's Will.
However, for the purposes of this mini-tournament, it is irrelavent. This tournament is mainly to gauge the sheer destructive capabilities and durability of each of the deathstars involved. It's like Michael Jordan and Lebron James going one-on-one instead of the the Championship Bulls team versus the Championship Heat team. Look at it as "Who is the best player (deathstar)" rather than "Who is the best championship team (tournament army)".
Don't count out Tau in assault. The seer council doesn't have what it takes to wipe them out in combat so easily, not with a stubborn deathstar who can hit & run out of combat. Against the LoC, they have all twin-linked weapons and can take Monster Hunter, though killing him (the LoC) will depend on what rewards and psychic buffs he gets.
I doubt that they will fail to hurt each other. The volume of attacks/fire that each deathstar is able to put out is just staggering. Then you've got Precision Shots (especially for the 4 Tzeentch Herald characters) and cover-ignoring powers that can be placed to hurt the deathstars.
16 psycannon shots will be enough to make a dent by the time they hit combat, also I guess you will be able to use grand stratagy? Then give them scout or re-rolls to wound so they become even better
Nick Navanti (aka yermom here on dakka) brought something like this:
Draigo
Necron Lord
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, not sure what else
5x Warrriors - Night Scythe
5x Warrriors - Night Scythe
5x Warrriors - Night Scythe
3x Annihilation Barges
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/04/27 15:24:25
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
I don't believe you can take allies of the same army.
This is a very resilient and extremely dangerous deathstar in assault. My only problem with it is that it needs some type of delivery system. Slow and Purposeful makes them even slower than slow. They'll never catch some of the other deathstars.
As much as I like this deathstar, I've got to say, "Sorry, not viable unless you can somehow get them into some type of fast transport."
What about putting it in a Deffrolla? That's an open-topped transport, so you get to move + disembark + assault. You can move 12"-18" per turn between normal move and flat out, in order to corner your opposing Deathstar. It's AV14 front armor, which a lot of these Deathstars are going to have a hard time with. Oh, and you're thowing S10 hits on each Deathstar once you tank shock it, regardless of whether they DoG or not, and those hits ignore cover saves.
Edit: Oh, and as an additional bonus, you can disembark, tank shock to bunch up the opposing Deathstar, then unload with a volley of combi-scorchas before charging in. Should be extra fun against those Deathstars that are relying on cover to boost their survivability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 15:49:02
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
14000, all over the place 
-head Loth last night. 
for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat. 
Or was it Ordnance?
10,000+
