Grey Knights are next ! - UPDATED 15/8 --- pre-order up on GW website

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**Red Corsair**

agnosto wrote:
Too bad hammerhand doesn't affect shooting... Then I wouldn't gripe about losing psybolt ammo.

Just stop. GW doesn't need more bad ideas. I am just happy they didn't get army wide rending like Eldar... Because that was such a needed buff

**WrentheFaceless**

agnosto wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Purgators got...night vision i believe..

But no they're still the same, 4 can take special weapons per 5 man.

lol with a 24" range gun. woo!! Don't do anything crazy now!

Well they can deep strike.

**Quickjager**

One interesting thing is that Techmarines are a HQ, but if you already have a HQ they do not take a FOC slot. Also they have access to relics.

Yes that means Techmarines in Terminator armor might be a thing now.

**l0k1**

Fingers crossed that these aren't true. Losing psybolt ammo is a huge hit, so is the change to halberds.

**Red Corsair**

agnosto wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Purgators got...night vision i believe..

But no they're still the same, 4 can take special weapons per 5 man.

lol with a 24" range gun. woo!! Don't do anything crazy now!

Yea they are outclassed in every way by the NDK. This is GW's major problem they can't seem to ever get right. They make units that are borderline useless that compete for slots with units that are overly efficient for their cost. I no perfect imbalance is a thing but this is far from perfect, this is just imbalance for the sake of being different.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

WrentheFaceless wrote:
agnosto wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Purgators got...night vision i believe..

But no they're still the same, 4 can take special weapons per 5 man.

lol with a 24" range gun. woo!! Don't do anything crazy now!

Well they can deep strike.

Right because the NDK can't, or move 30", or have better weapons on a more durable platform with increased range.... wait.

**Super Newb**

So the DK will come standard with power fists in the new edition? Would it strike at initiative 4 with those or 1?

**Red Corsair**

Quickjager wrote:
One interesting thing is that Techmarines are a HQ, but if you already have a HQ they do not take a FOC slot. Also they have access to relics.

Yes that means Techmarines in Terminator armor might be a thing now.

Sounds like C:SM... not surprised. Are orbital relays still a thing?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:
So the DK will come standard with power fists in the new edition? Would it strike at initiative 4 with those or 1?

4, at initiative, like all MC's

**ForeverARookie**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
ForeverARookie wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Not sure about the rest of you, but DTW on force is still farily difficult having to roll 6's for each charge.

Its not as easy as people are making it out to be

If they have any Psykers, they'll have a decent dice pool for denying, whereas if the Dreadknight throws too many dice into Force to prevent the opponent from denying it, he practically guarantees a Perils of the Warp which could kill him. It's not worth the <4% chance of successfully getting an Instant Death vs an enemy. The Heavy Psycannon will just kill them with wounds, and does it better.

Less than 4% chance? Where are you getting this math from? Activating force is a 50% chance on just one die, it only goes up from there. Whereas your opponent rolling 1 die to deny it is a 17% chance. The odds are in your favor of getting it off

More specifically each shot has < 4% chance of causing an instant death.

If you load up a NDK with 2 Gatling Psilencers you get 24 shots. Hitting on a 3+ (x2/3), Wounding T5 on a 5+ (x1/3), enemy 3+ save being failed (x1/3) brings the statistical number of unsaved wounds to 48/27, or 1.78, or 1-2 wounds per shooting phase, which is 7.4% of the shots taken.

Edit: fixed math error
Now let's look at the Force power. Using 3 dice has a 87.5% chance of success, but also carries a 7.4% chance of getting a Perils of the Warp. If your opponent also uses 3 dice to Deny the Witch, he'll also have a 7.4% chance of denying 2 successfully harnessed Warp Charges. Bringing the chance of successful activation down to 81% chance of successful activation.

So each shot has a 7.4% chance of causing an unsaved wound, and you have a 81% chance of activating Force, meaning your chance of sucessfully inflicting Instant Death on the opponent with 2 Gatling Psilencers is roughly 6% under the best conditions.

*Also, I've been told that you still can't take 2 of the same gun on a Dreadknight, which would again drop that percentage down to 3%.

If my math is (still) wrong please correct me.

**WrentheFaceless**

Math is fine, but you can only take one, so yes its not so hot

**Elmir**

Personally, I'm still going to see if I can't take a full unit of terminators with 2 psycannons with an inquisitor with a liber heresius/ psycannon for the scout move.

Or even consider a LR variant to put a 5 man version of that squad in with the inquisitor? It would give them a 12 scout move if I'm not mistaken?

It should be a good midfield or even flank unit at a more reasonable price now and it has 3 psycannons and the justicar of that unit can carry a teleport homer to guide in any shunters. It could make for a very surprise flank change tactic against some opponents.

**Redemption**

ForeverARookie wrote:
If my math is wrong please correct me.

Force is a Blessing, so you can only deny it on a 6, not a 4+.

**Elmir**

WrentheFaceless wrote:

Well they can deep strike.

I think purgations and purifiers cannot deep strike.

**WrentheFaceless**

Elmir wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:

Well they can deep strike.

I think purgations and purifiers cannot deep strike.

Guy on /tg/ listing off profiles said theirs had deep strike, at least purgators.

So take it as you will

**Red Corsair**

Maybe orbital relays will add an element of AT.

**WisdomLS**

I understand peoples annoyance at the general loss of power and utility on a number of units but speaking for myself I got into playing GK's for their cool Daemon Hunting fluff and teleporting pure Terminator armoured elite forces - so for me the new book is looking good to go. (wish I could keep my old halberds though ;-)

**ForeverARookie**

Redemption wrote:
ForeverARookie wrote:
If my math is wrong please correct me.

Force is a Blessing, so you can only deny it on a 6, not a 4+.

Three Deny the Witch dice have 216 possible combinations.

91 of those combinations have at least 1 successful 6 to deny a Warp charge.
16 of those combinations have at least 2 successful 6 to deny both Warp charges.

16/216 = 7.4%

So you're correct that there was an error, but it was that I calculated for 1 denied dice instead of 2, not assuming a denial on a 4+.

**Red Corsair**

WisdomLS wrote:
I understand peoples annoyance at the general loss of power and utility on a number of units but speaking for myself I got into playing GK's for their cool Daemon Hunting fluff and teleporting pure Terminator armoured elite forces - so for me the new book is looking good to go. (wish I could keep my old halberds though ;-)

I think its the loss of content period that has people upset. Even if it was foreseeable, that isn't much consolation. Whats worse is when others tell them they are happy for the looses, or that they should share books with friends. That doesn't address the injury, just patches the wound a tad.

**Quickjager**

WisdomLS wrote:
I understand peoples annoyance at the general loss of power and utility on a number of units but speaking for myself I got into playing GK's for their cool Daemon Hunting fluff and teleporting pure Terminator armoured elite forces - so for me the new book is looking good to go. (wish I could keep my old halberds though ;-)

I wouldn't mind half the losses if we could stick psycannons onto our vehicles; we used to be able to proxy with an assault cannon with psybolt ammo. It made my Land Raider Redeemer fun to use STR 7 AP3 Flamer template, STR 7 AP 4 Rending Psycannon, could fit my Termie squad and a IC. Now we don't have that :(

EDIT: Also Purgation Squads can't deepstrike, that was a typo.

**buddha**

Well I guess we might actually see Grey Knights in an army rather than the superior henchman. I'd be pissed at the removal of Inq. stuff but i guess they still have their own dex so no real loss. Interestingly, the Inq. dex still technically has psybolts and psychic pilot for now.

**Sir Arun**

I can't believe it.

Everything that was good in the previous Grey Knight codex has been nerfed to shreds. Everything. Not just the removal of Inq and Valeria and henchmen, not just the removal of Assassins, not just the removal of Mordrak and Thawn and the Brotherhood Champion, I mean literally everything. Psycannons on non termies? Nerf. Halberds? Bleh. Swords on termies? Bleh. Psycannons on vehicles? Nope. Rifleman Dreads? Bleh. Psybolt Ammo? Nope. Rad grenades? gone. Psychotroke grenades? gone.

We're not haters or whiners, we're just expressing our shock at witnessing our army butchered in front of our very eyes.

The only thing good about the new codex are cheaper Dreadknights (especially with teleporters), cheaper Libbys, cheaper Apothecary upgrades, better psilencers and an even more powerful Draigo.

Pretty much everything else took a beating with the nerfbat.

**Red Corsair**

buddha wrote:
Well I guess we might actually see Grey Knights in an army rather than the superior henchman. I'd be pissed at the removal of Inq. stuff but i guess they still have their own dex so no real loss. Interestingly, the Inq. dex still technically has psybolts and psychic pilot for now.

Unless you factor in the cost of the added books....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Arun wrote:
I can't believe it.

Everything that was good in the previous Grey Knight codex has been nerfed to shreds.

We're not haters or whiners, we're just expressing our shock at witnessing our army butchered in front of our very eyes.

The only thing good about the new codex are cheaper Dreadknights (especially with teleporters), cheaper Libbys, cheaper Apothecary upgrades and an even more powerful Draigo.

Pretty much everything else took a beating with the nerfbat.

They will be awesome allies for a libby, a termy squad and a NDK.... That's as far as I'd take them though.

That said I can already see someone using dual CAD to run 6 dreadknights

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

I just wish there was some reason to take Purgation squads. Night fighting aint gonna do it...

**PapaSoul**

Quickjager wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
I understand peoples annoyance at the general loss of power and utility on a number of units but speaking for myself I got into playing GK's for their cool Daemon Hunting fluff and teleporting pure Terminator armoured elite forces - so for me the new book is looking good to go. (wish I could keep my old halberds though ;-)

I wouldn't mind half the losses if we could stick psycannons onto our vehicles; we used to be able to proxy with an assault cannon with psybolt ammo. It made my Land Raider Redeemer fun to use STR 7 AP3 Flamer template, STR 7 AP 4 Rending Psycannon, could fit my Termie squad and a IC. Now we don't have that :(

EDIT: Also Purgation Squads can't deepstrike, that was a typo.

This. The psycannons on vehicles is a huge Nerf. Not to mention I Own a Forgeworld Redeemer with Psycannons and incinerators, as well as 3 razorbacks with Forgeworld Psycannons turrets. I now have very little use for these :(

**WrentheFaceless**

Well I would think the redeemer would still be valid?

**daedalus**

Quickjager wrote:

I wouldn't mind half the losses if we could stick psycannons onto our vehicles; we used to be able to proxy with an assault cannon with psybolt ammo. It made my Land Raider Redeemer fun to use STR 7 AP3 Flamer template, STR 7 AP 4 Rending Psycannon, could fit my Termie squad and a IC. Now we don't have that :(

EDIT: Also Purgation Squads can't deepstrike, that was a typo.

There is a FW option for vehicle psycanons. I want to say it was either the same or 5 points more expensive than assault cannon+psybolt ammo though, which made it of dubious utility back in the day.

**Sir Arun**

Here's stuff posted from a guy who has the codex on /tg/. I take this as his timestamp:

many nerfs.. some buffs. i still like it however.. some neat combinations are possible now. for instance a libby with 3 rolls on telepathy and 1-2 additional rolls on sanctic.

melee weapons:
nemesis force sword: s user ap 3 melee, daemonbane, force.

nemesis force halberd: s +1 ap 3 melee, two handed, daemonbane, force.

nemesis daemonhammer: sx2 ap 2 melee, unwieldly, concussive, specialist weapon, daemonbane, force.

nemesis warding stave: s+2 ap 4 melee, daemonbane, concussive, psiprotection, force.
psi protection: user gains adamant will usr

nemesis falchions: s user ap 3 melee, daemonbane, force, specialist weapon
(you always buy these in pairs so +1A)

nemesis longsword Sx2 ap 2 melee, daemonbane, specialist weapon master crafted, force.

daemonbane: a unit that activates its force weapons may reroll all failed to wound and armour pen rolls on enemys with the daemon special rule.

servo arm: same as marines. sx2 ap 1 melee, specialist weapon, unwieldly.

ranged weapons:
psycannon: 24" s7 ap 4 salvo 2/4, rending (hard nerf for PAGK )
heavy psycannon: 2 fire modes:
scattered: 24" s7 ap 4 heavy 1,blast 5", rending
concentrated: 24" s7 ap 4 salvo 3/6, rending

psylencer: 24" s4 ap- heavy 6, force
gatling psylencer: 24" s 4 ap - heavy 12. force
that force addition might become nice but no longer wounds daemons on 4+.

incinerator: template S6 ap 4, assault 1, soul blaze
heavy incinerator: template S6 ap 4 heavy 1, torrent, soul blaze.

psyk out grenades: enemy psyker that assault a unit with these does not gain +1 attack.

you can throw psyk out grenades now:
8" s2 ap - assault 1, blast 3", psy shock

psy shock: a random psyker within the unit suffers a perils of the warp if the unit is hit.

Army wide Special rules:
Aegis: a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rerolls all rolls of 1 on deny the witch rolls.

spiritual purity: cannot use malefic daemonology. only perils on double 6's when casting sanctic.

Combat squads: (we all know this one)

Warlord Traits:

1: daemonhunter:
the warlord has the hatred (daemons) special rule. when the warlord casts the banishment psychic power he succeeds in channeling on a 2+ on the warp charge rolls instead of 4+.

2: hammer of righteousnes:
the warlord and his unit gain the hammer of wrath USR

3: unyielding anvil:
the warlord and all units of codex: grey knights within 12" gain the stubborn usr

4: the first in the battle:
if you place the warlord and his unit in deepstrike reserve he arrives on turn 1 and can reroll the scatter dice.

5: master of counterattack:
the warlord and his unit gain the counter attack USR

6: master scholar:
the warlord may roll one additional psychic power when generating psychic powers. this power has to be from the daemonology: sanctic discipline.

RELICS

brotherhood banner: allied units of codex: grey knights within 12" of model with the banner reroll failed morale tests. in additon all models in the same unit as the banner bearer gain +1 attack.

reliks (suck mostly.. but are cheap..)

deimos rage: stormbolter with 36" s4 ap 5 assault 3, master crafted, precision shots.

domina liber daemonica:
the wielder of this relik can roll for a additional psychic power. this power has to be generated from the daemonology: sanctic discipline.
in addition every allied unit of codex: grey knights within 6" of the model with this relik can reroll all rolls of 1 when they try to channel daemonology: sanctic powers.

bone shard of solor:
the bearer gains a 3+ invulnerable save if he is within 12" of a model with the special rule daemon. this invulnerable save becomes a 2+ if a model with the special rule daemon of khorne is within 12". in addition the bearer also gains the hatred: khorne special rule.

armor of martyrs:
terminator armour with 2+/5++. the user gains it will not die, relentless, feel no pain, bulky and cannot sweeping advance.

nemesis banner:
allied units of codex: grey knights within 12" gain the fearless usr. all units in the same units as the banner gain +1 attack. all daemons with the daemon usr treat all terrain within 12" of the model with the banner as dangerous terrain. even open terrain counts as dangerous.

the soulgleeve:
s+ 1 ap 3 melee, daemonbane, force, soulprint(sp?), two handed.

soulprint: a character that wields the soulgliev may reroll all failed channel rolls when activating the forceweapon. in addition the wielder rerolls all failed to hit, to wound and armour pen rolls when the gleeves force effect is active. (against everything, not only daemons)

now to the beef, points:

ARMORY

melee weapons:
a model may replace his melee weapon with one of the following:
nemesis force halberd: 2pts
2 nemesis force falchions: 4pts
nemesis force stave: 5pts
nemesis daemonhammer: 10pts

special weapons:
a model may replace his stormbolter and melee weapon for one of the following:
incinerator: 5pts
psylencer: 10pts
psycannon: 15pts

termionator special weapons:
a model may replace his stormbolter for one of the following:
incinerator: 10pts
psylencer: 15 pts
psycannon: 20 pts

special equipment:
a model may take:
melta bombs: 5pts
digital weapons: 10 pts
teleport homer: 10pts
making one of his weapons master crafted: 10 pts

reliks:
per army each one may only be taken once. a modell may take a single:
deimos rage: 10 pts (replaces stormbolter)
bne shard of solor: 10 pts
armour of martyrs: 15 pts (replaces the terminator armour of the model)
soulgleeve 20 pts (replaces the melee weapon of the model)
domina liber daemonica: 25pts

dreadnought weapons:
may switch multimelta for:
TL autocannon: 5 pts
TL heavy bolter: 5pts
TL heavy flamer: 5pts
plasmacannon: 10 pts
assault cannon: 20 pts
TL lascannon: 25 pts

)

**Super Newb**

Red Corsair wrote:
buddha wrote:
Well I guess we might actually see Grey Knights in an army rather than the superior henchman. I'd be pissed at the removal of Inq. stuff but i guess they still have their own dex so no real loss. Interestingly, the Inq. dex still technically has psybolts and psychic pilot for now.

Unless you factor in the cost of the added books....

Yeah.

And being forced to have two GK squads of troops (could've had a bunch of purifiers or interceptors with henchmen... can't do that with the new dex)

And being forced to use a GK hq rather than an Inq one. On top of that 2 HQs are required to run GK/Inquisition rather than only one HQ before.

So besides paying around a hundred bucks for three codices to replace the old one, besides what I said above, besides all of the purely GK things stripped from the new codex (mordrak, thrawn, psybolts etc; ). No real loss.

**Auswin**

Sir Arun wrote:
I can't believe it.

Everything that was good in the previous Grey Knight codex has been nerfed to shreds. Everything. Not just the removal of Inq and Valeria and henchmen, not just the removal of Assassins, not just the removal of Mordrak and Thawn and the Brotherhood Champion, I mean literally everything. Psycannons on non termies? Nerf. Halberds? Bleh. Psycannons on vehicles? Nope. Rifleman Dreads? Bleh. Psybolt Ammo? Nope.

We're not haters or whiners, we're just expressing our shock at witnessing our army butchered in front of our very eyes.

The only thing good about the new codex are cheaper Dreadknights (especially with teleporters), cheaper Libbys, cheaper Apothecary upgrades, better psilencers and an even more powerful Draigo.

Pretty much everything else took a beating with the nerfbat.

Yep. They'll be amazing allies and I suspect most marine players will look at them as their primary allies to get cheap ML3 units, but that's about it. I can't work out how this army is supposed to operate on its own unless you happen to be up against a demon or footslogging list.

Simply put: They don't fit into the meta, at all.

**Goresaw**

At least so far it doesn't look like you're getting orked, where your army no longer functions on a basic level.

I think forced range weapons are a real wildcard. So much stuff doesn't have EW... and all you have to do is fail one save... sure the probabilities are low, but I can see that sort of thing absolutely ruining someones day

**daedalus**

The problem isn't killing things. They'll still be able to do that pretty well. The problem is anti-tank.

The classic solutions went away and weren't replaced with anything.