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The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.

Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.

The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.

It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.

Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.

Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.

The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.

It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.

Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.

This, 200% this. Space Marines can be cool and everything. But when they're immune to everything, faster than everything, etc, they get boring and stupid real fast, and the ability to suspend disbelief breaks and it starts to look more and more like bad internet fanfiction than badass super soldier.

They also get vastly overestimated, often to the detriment of equivalent or even more powerful units. People will accept a Marine punching all sorts of ridiculous things to death, but try to do the same with an Ogryn and the range of things they'll believe is a lot smaller, despite the Ogryn having been consistently portrayed in every iteration of Warhammer 40,000 as being much stronger and tougher.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.

Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.

The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.

It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.

Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.

This, 200% this. Space Marines can be cool at everything. When they're immune to everything, faster than everything, etc, they get boring and stupid real fast, and the ability to suspend disbelief breaks and it starts to look more and more like bad internet fanfiction than badass super soldier.

Agreed compeletely, Space Marines are my favourite faction and I agree with this whole heartidly.

Also I've missed a lot of the previous discussion but I'm from the OP, I'm assuming he doesn't have much experience with AM or particularly well rounded AM players, some of the best players and toughest games I've had have been against the original IG and now AM and they are literally one of the most iconic factions in the game/books/lore etc.

Pretty sure the OP is trolling, but this is a good thread to discuss our feelings on the AM and other factions in that context. So that's good.

I'm glad to hear that, Vaktathi. It's good to have Guard players who don't succumb to irrational Marine hatred because of this silliness.

Kids, you are knee deep in the "can superman beat batman" bs. Just stop.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.

Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.

The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.

It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.

Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.

Exalted, couldn't agree more.

Reading 'There is Only War' at the moment - a short story collection. Probably 6-7 space marine stories in a row that get progressively worse. Was running a mental tally of some Flesh Tearers' kills (vs CSM), every bolt is a killshot, every hit sustained is 'defeated by the Astartes Battleplate(TM)'. Other highlights included a single Space Wolf killing a creature that was destroying vast agri-machines on an ocean world. The marine was around the size of this things eyeball, but that's ok because he's brooding over his lost pack and also is filled with rage(TM). And of course, it wouldn't be complete without some Dark Angel no-name killing a lord-tier Fallen veteran. Seriously. I started just skipping ahead at the first hint of power armour.

Then it moved onto a story about a war orphan by the name of Bas surviving on a world overrun by Orks. Not a space marine in sight. Fantastic read with a damn awesome ending.

Zsolt wrote:Kids, you are knee deep in the "can superman beat batman" bs. Just stop.

Nobody is arguing, so I don't know what you're saying. We're discussing how Space Marines are massively overrated in the books, and, while their power, strength and fighting prowess are formidable, the extent to which the books take it is just numbingly absurd. Also that it is just as irksome to Marine fans as it is to non-Marine fans.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Spoiler:

The kind of insanity often depicted in the books is best ignored.

Believe me, I love Space Marines. Heavily-armoured and individually powerful warriors have always been one of my favourite tropes.

The books take it way, way too far, though. They are made out to be literally the best at everything. They're invincible even without their armour (unless they are Chaos Marines and not the protagonists, then they are made of paper). They're stronger than a Carnifex and faster than an Eldar jetbike. It takes out all of the fun. They can't just be good, they have to be so good that they not only invalidate everyone else, but absolutely shatter any attempt at plausibility.

It's just childish "my guy beats up your guy" "no, my guy is stronger" "my guy is 10x stronger than yours and has laser eyes and an invincible force field and he runs super fast and breathes fire!". It's ridiculous and not at all interesting, and it only gets worse when the Primarchs are involved.

Not to turn this into a Matt Ward hate thread, but this is the same reason a lot of people don't like his writing. Little bits like Tigurius being so much better than every other psyker ever that he can even probe into the Hive Mind. It's also a source of dislike for the Space Wolves and Ultramarines, as stories frame them as being just plain better than other Space Marines in a number of ways. It's also why a lot of people find Superman to be incredibly boring.

Exalted, couldn't agree more.

Reading 'There is Only War' at the moment - a short story collection. Probably 6-7 space marine stories in a row that get progressively worse. Was running a mental tally of some Flesh Tearers' kills (vs CSM), every bolt is a killshot, every hit sustained is 'defeated by the Astartes Battleplate(TM)'. Other highlights included a single Space Wolf killing a creature that was destroying vast agri-machines on an ocean world. The marine was around the size of this things eyeball, but that's ok because he's brooding over his lost pack and also is filled with rage(TM). And of course, it wouldn't be complete without some Dark Angel no-name killing a lord-tier Fallen veteran. Seriously. I started just skipping ahead at the first hint of power armour.

Then it moved onto a story about a war orphan by the name of Bas surviving on a world overrun by Orks. Not a space marine in sight. Fantastic read with a damn awesome ending.

Thank you! My favourite example of awful Marine over-exaggeration is that Iron Warrior who bounces a bolt under a vehicle and kills a sharpshooter in a window two miles away. I do a lot of creative writing, so I don't understand how an author can actually put instances like that into their story without immediately realising how absurd it is. It's like something from a terrible fanfiction. A close second is a story where five Chaos Marines wander into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and proceed to whip them all to death with treads ripped off their tanks.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A close second is a story where five Chaos Marines wander into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and proceed to whip them all to death with treads ripped off their tanks.

That one is actually pretty reasonable though - it does not say all of them where whipped to death, just some.

Plus, it was a company, not a regiment.

Assuming the company just had lasguns, the CSM could very well just take their time and dismantle the company at their leisure. If they had been toting melta/plasma, then yes, they would probably have done a little less procrastinating.

What about the example where a bandolier of frag grenades exploded at a Marine's feet and his armour remained intact?

Or that time a Marine fell a kilometer and not only survived but was also soon able to walk away?

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

Take a look here, I get much of my debate material from this list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But there are some things I think we actually should ignore, like this one.

The First Heretic wrote:“Everything was in motion to an exacting standard – each twist of the spear haft brought the blade up to block las-fire or down to cut flesh…

A clunk, a click, and the weapon was reloaded. Sythran rose again, already cutting the air with grand sweeps, batting aside the streaking laser fire.

Sythran leapt his cadaver barricade and met them head on. They fell in pieces, and beyond a las-burn along his shoulder guard, the blood on his blade was the only evidence he’d even been fighting.”

Batting aside lasfire, suuuuuure. There's being fast, and then there's being fast.

I'll never understand why people attempt to compare e-peens.

EDIT: Okay, I take that back. I kind of get it, it can be fun to compare fluff. What I don't get is when people treat fantasy fluff as objective material representative of the "true" capabilities of a faction. Or is plot armour an objective trait of power armour (or flak armour, depending on who's being written about). You physically can't do it. It is impossible to maintain fantasy, fluff, and objectivity all at once. Literally, they are mutually exclusive.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You do realize that you're all talk, right?

At least I had a video of something that actually happened, where 3 masters took out 48 guys of lower skill in real life.

Until you have something real to show, maybe you should stop.

Who cares?
1 man with a belt fed chain gun can take out 50 masters in seconds.
And thats what CC is about. Its not pointy sticks. Its Pointy sticks + guns + grenades + shovels + anything.
Your grand master is facing 50 guys pointing guns at them. In the words of a certain comic strip on the same topic-FREEEM!

Just going back to an earlier point made on how each Loyalist bolt shell kills a CSM, it may not be as unreasonable as you think.

Look at the Mk V armour. Although each suit is a hodge-podge of scraps and spares, the one thing they all have in common is the bonding studs which secure extra layers of sub-standard material like plasteel. The reason for this is cited as being to add extra protection vs enemy Bolter rounds.
In Know No Fear, which details the attack on Calth, the initial attack by the Word Bearers doesn't seem at all faltered by the Ultramarine's armour. In fact, in that case, and when the XIII counterattack, it seems that PA is pretty naff vs Mass-reactives. In fact, the is a scene in it where .

As we all know, GW is of the opinion that al CSM forces have the inability to manufacture or maintain the modern equipment of the Loyalists such as Razorbacks, Land Raider variants, Stormravens/Talons, Whirlwinds, Mk VIII armour. A lot of the cult troops are shown in variants of Mk 2 or 3 armour as well (looking at the Khorne Berserkers and Plague Marines in particular).


So from all of that I have a loose theory that in those novels, the CSM are wearing the older plate, Mk 2 and 3 and 4, which are lighter and not as Bolter-proof as the later Mk 5, and presumably 6 and 7, that the loyalists wear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A close second is a story where five Chaos Marines wander into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and proceed to whip them all to death with treads ripped off their tanks.

That one is actually pretty reasonable though - it does not say all of them where whipped to death, just some.

Plus, it was a company, not a regiment.

Assuming the company just had lasguns, the CSM could very well just take their time and dismantle the company at their leisure. If they had been toting melta/plasma, then yes, they would probably have done a little less procrastinating.

What about the example where a bandolier of frag grenades exploded at a Marine's feet and his armour remained intact?

Or that time a Marine fell a kilometer and not only survived but was also soon able to walk away?

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

Take a look here, I get much of my debate material from this list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But there are some things I think we actually should ignore, like this one.

The First Heretic wrote:“Everything was in motion to an exacting standard – each twist of the spear haft brought the blade up to block las-fire or down to cut flesh…

A clunk, a click, and the weapon was reloaded. Sythran rose again, already cutting the air with grand sweeps, batting aside the streaking laser fire.

Sythran leapt his cadaver barricade and met them head on. They fell in pieces, and beyond a las-burn along his shoulder guard, the blood on his blade was the only evidence he’d even been fighting.”

Batting aside lasfire, suuuuuure. There's being fast, and then there's being fast.

You don't bat it aside from intercepting it mid-fight. You do how the Jedi do it. You predict where the lowly Guardsmen is aiming, and simply make sure you have your energised blade waiting for the shot. You only need it in the correct spot for a billionth of a second to block the shot. You say that's impossible to predict? Not really. Marines have a much higher mental capacity than humans due to their intense training and their stamina. Marines won't get hampered by fatigue or sleep deprivation, and will operate at full capacity even in battle due to their training to remain calm no matter what. They are trained to calculate things like angles and distance and range, plus have their autosenses to help.

They know the shot travels in a straight line as a laser. They can predict where the shot is going to be by the angle and direction of the firer. They can move faster than the Guardsman's finger, and so by the time the shot actually fires, the blade is in the way and blocks the shot.

Of course, that doesn't work if everyone in the 50 strong Guard squad is all firing at one marine. But that's unlikely to happen. If 50 Guardsmen were spread out in rows of ~10, each is going to fire at one of the 10 marines closest at him, so in reality, the Marine only has to deal with 3 enemies, all firing at slightly different times. He doesn't have to block every shot either, as some miss or go wide. There's just little point mentioning those shots.

I haven't read all the Space Marine fluff but even in the little that I've managed to read their capabilities vary so much from book to book that it's hard to draw any conclusion about what they can really do.

On the one hand in Tome of Fire for example there is at some point a battle scene between Dark Eldar and an IG Armored Column. the DE are simply to fast for the guardsmen to do anything about it, to the point they dodge bolt pisto shots at PB range. Then marines come in and are more than able to match the Dark Eldar in speed.

On the other hand, in the first books of the Horus Heresy: Loken has a rather lengthy duel vs. an Interex officer (which seems to be just a highly trained human with fancy gear) and in general the marines don't seem to be significantly faster than their human opponents (to the point that, in Galaxy in Flames during the attack on Istvaan III capital Lucius says a group of presumably human defenders with Jet Packs are 'too fast').

Entertaining as the past few pages have been, none of this is a reason for IG to be the worst thing in 40k, though.

Let's assume a normal heartbeat takes half a second.

We know that a Space Marine (Source: Void Stalker) is capable of sprinting 10 meters from stationary and vaulting a command console in that time.

Let's also assume that the vaulting part ate 1/4th of the time that the whole movement took.

That means we have 0,375 seconds for running 10 meters.

That's something like 30 meters per second, or 95 kph, or about 152 mph (!)

I made a pair of assumptions there, but I doubt shifting that number would affect the main point:

He is not only fast, he is far too fast for even the best human in the galaxy to counter. Unmodified humans have a delay time of 0,5 seconds between seeing something with their eyes and the information being registered in their brain, with additional time then added for deciding on an action and tasking the muscles with carrying out that action. Marines have faster reaction times than that, repeatedly described (I have a ton of sources if you'd like) as being able to move faster than the eye can follow and with millisecond reaction times (Example source: Space Wolf Omnibus page 258).

This sounds...far more like Eldar hopped up on Movit #11 than something someone in a suit of power armor should be capable of. I mean, I get that this is space fantasy and physics ought to take a deep breath and go read a textbook instead of getting involved, but do we really need to steal its lunch money while we're at it?

Going from the RPGs...I don't have Deathwatch, but I do have a number of Only War books, and they've got stats for Chaos Marines in one of them. At a dead sprint, they can move at a much more reasonable six meters a second - still far faster than a regular human, but not up to superhero speeds. Seems like they should be roughly equivalent. I also get that GeeDub's not huge on enforcing The One True Canon and sources are all over the place and that I'm certainly not going to convince anyone to change their minds over the internet, of course. Just my own headcanon. I do like space marines. I think they're iconic to the setting and pretty cool when they're not overplayed. I also think they're head and shoulders - literally - above Guardsman Joe, who typically regards them as literal Angels of Death and if he's lucky might have a spent Astartes bolter casing as a holy relic. That's nifty and characterful. But I tend to see things like 'a squad of space marines can take and hold a planet' as Imperial propaganda, unless the planet was very very small or they just shot the corrupted governor in the face and teleported out so the PDF could clean up. They're impressive shock troops that rely on mobility and concentrated force, and that does have limits.

From my perspective, anyway.

Oh! Right! Guardsmen!

Still able to take your average Gretchin in a fight.

 Spinner wrote:
Going from the RPGs...I don't have Deathwatch, but I do have a number of Only War books, and they've got stats for Chaos Marines in one of them. At a dead sprint, they can move at a much more reasonable six meters a second - still far faster than a regular human, but not up to superhero speeds. Seems like they should be roughly equivalent. I also get that GeeDub's not huge on enforcing The One True Canon and sources are all over the place and that I'm certainly not going to convince anyone to change their minds over the internet, of course. Just my own headcanon. I do like space marines. I think they're iconic to the setting and pretty cool when they're not overplayed. I also think they're head and shoulders - literally - above Guardsman Joe, who typically regards them as literal Angels of Death and if he's lucky might have a spent Astartes bolter casing as a holy relic. That's nifty and characterful. But I tend to see things like 'a squad of space marines can take and hold a planet' as Imperial propaganda, unless the planet was very very small or they just shot the corrupted governor in the face and teleported out so the PDF could clean up. They're impressive shock troops that rely on mobility and concentrated force, and that does have limits.

From my perspective, anyway.

Oh! Right! Guardsmen!

Still able to take your average Gretchin in a fight.

I don't think I've ever heard an interpretation I liked better. Epic, gothic, characterful but also with limits and therefore both grand and believable. I can totally imagine guardsmen swapping stories around the campfire of how their great-grandpa honest-to-the-Emperor once witnessed a drop pod assault. To build on what you said, I can imagine bolter cases being sold as relics, like saintly bones in the Dark Ages!

 God In Action wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
Going from the RPGs...I don't have Deathwatch, but I do have a number of Only War books, and they've got stats for Chaos Marines in one of them. At a dead sprint, they can move at a much more reasonable six meters a second - still far faster than a regular human, but not up to superhero speeds. Seems like they should be roughly equivalent. I also get that GeeDub's not huge on enforcing The One True Canon and sources are all over the place and that I'm certainly not going to convince anyone to change their minds over the internet, of course. Just my own headcanon. I do like space marines. I think they're iconic to the setting and pretty cool when they're not overplayed. I also think they're head and shoulders - literally - above Guardsman Joe, who typically regards them as literal Angels of Death and if he's lucky might have a spent Astartes bolter casing as a holy relic. That's nifty and characterful. But I tend to see things like 'a squad of space marines can take and hold a planet' as Imperial propaganda, unless the planet was very very small or they just shot the corrupted governor in the face and teleported out so the PDF could clean up. They're impressive shock troops that rely on mobility and concentrated force, and that does have limits.

From my perspective, anyway.

Oh! Right! Guardsmen!

Still able to take your average Gretchin in a fight.

I don't think I've ever heard an interpretation I liked better. Epic, gothic, characterful but also with limits and therefore both grand and believable. I can totally imagine guardsmen swapping stories around the campfire of how their great-grandpa honest-to-the-Emperor once witnessed a drop pod assault. To build on what you said, I can imagine bolter cases being sold as relics, like saintly bones in the Dark Ages!

It turns out that the Black Library books aren't 40k themed novels, they're propaganda published by the Imperium uses to instill fervor in the general population.

 Deadshot wrote:
So from all of that I have a loose theory that in those novels, the CSM are wearing the older plate, Mk 2 and 3 and 4, which are lighter and not as Bolter-proof as the later Mk 5, and presumably 6 and 7, that the loyalists wear.

IIRC, the early marks of 2-5 armor employed by CSM are *better* than the current Mk. 7 used by SM.

They don't make 'em like they used to.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
So from all of that I have a loose theory that in those novels, the CSM are wearing the older plate, Mk 2 and 3 and 4, which are lighter and not as Bolter-proof as the later Mk 5, and presumably 6 and 7, that the loyalists wear.

IIRC, the early marks of 2-5 armor employed by CSM are *better* than the current Mk. 7 used by SM.

They don't make 'em like they used to.

Depends on your source. The Mk 4 was superior to Mk 2 and 3 (an uparmoured 2). But the Mk 6 Corvus has many similar systems that gave the Mk4 superiority. The rotatable helmet, advanced autosenses, shielded cables. Except Mk6 was even better. Mk6 reportedly has superior autosenses. It has the shielded cables but also the compartmentalised sections that can be swapped out easily for replacements and also are apparently lighter and stealthier for no loss of protection.
And apparently Mk7 has all those features as well as some minor improvements.