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Ejderhare wrote:
Been looking at Bolt action before.. Anyone have any experience with how it compares to Flames of War? which is the better game? (I know flames of war uses smaller minis)

Flames of War is 'company level'. Lots of tanks, lots of squads of infantry, lots of support weapons. The rules are tight and great, but IMO it plays pretty slow. It is also IGO UGO like 40k with alpha strike syndrome.

BA is more of a platoon level - probably 50 models a side at a high estimate. A couple squads, one tank, one arty piece, etc. It is semi-alternating activations - in that you pull an order dice out of the bag and if it is yours, you activate. Much more fun, simulates the ebb and tide of battle movements.

I dunno, am I being a bit silly for feeling that due to the setting, the whole this is a bit to "real" and feel that I am slightly belittling the massive human tragedy that the war was by playing it out as a table top game?

Maybe I'm thinking about it to much, but I do find it easier to enjoy the daft and OTT styles of w40K fluff or the closer and more human (though still magically fantastical) themes of Warmachine.

Have you ever played Axis and Allies or watched a WW2 movie or played a video game? Enjoyed Counterstrike? These are all entertainment things based on real life. The good part about playing a tabletop game based on real events is that you get to do real research and learn a whole lot of useful history about real things that really happened.

Flames of War also has some crazy abstractions like the "blitzkrieg" rule for Germans. In general, I consider Flames of War the 40K of WWII.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 MarkDawg wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Iapedus wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm sorry I'd rather go read interesting 40k fluff than boring WW2 fluff.

I understand your point, and I am all for Sci-Fi Fantasy and Escapism, etc. But seriously, I think you need to go away and read some WW2 history / biographies or even just watch the World at War series, then come back and revise this statement. It is absurd.

I love Band of Brothers and WW2 is fascinating, but I don't think it makes a good tabletop game. There's plenty more exciting settings. Heck, I'd even take X-Wing or Infinity over WW2 games.

Bolt Action as far as game mechanics go is light years ahead of 40k it's a way better game rules wise without a doubt. So Rage quitters Play some Bolt Action you wont be sorry you did!

Can I play bolt action with grav tanks and wraithknights?

Yes, its possible. We played with the dust mega walkers.

Not to mention real WWII had robots. Imagine if FW produced the GOLIATH TRACKED MINE!!!

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MarkDawg wrote:

Spoiler:

I have Salvation for all 40k Rage quitters.

This game has as rich of a background as 40K looks just as good or better on the table it's played at 28mm. The game is balanced and have a slick innovative rules system. It's also way cheaper than 40k for the price of one 1850 list you could be 3 huge kick ass armies! The creators of this game are Rick Priestly Alessio Cavatore. Fellas I give you

BOLT ACTION

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the models are great, the game is balanced and its cheap and fun, but rich background? Please. If there's one thing a lot of people know about 40k, even if they quit, it's that they like the lore. That's one of the biggest draws to 40k is the amount of background material. Hell, look at the amount of sales Black Library books have and the Horus Heresy. Lore is one of 40k's strongest points.

Don't get me wrong, if WW2/Historical isn't to your taste, that's perfectly ok, but please, get a fething grip. Dismissing the "fluff" of WW2 as boring? How disrespectful do you want to be?

I can only conclude you're young enough that you have yet to really gain the maturity to appreciate exactly how massive an impact the conflict had, from personal through to international levels. I don't blame you for that, it is perhaps only in the last few years, now I have small people in my life that I care about, that I've really begun to comprehend it. People (that's real people, not characters) made the sort of sacrifices on a daily basis that makes all the heroic last stand guff churned out by GW look exactly like the shallow, marketing driven PR that it ultimately is.

For instance, check out Douglas Bader, if you're unfmailiar, he lost both legs in a crash, yet still volunteered as a pilot and flew mission.

I'm of an age where my grandparent's generation were exactly the right age to be called into action. Most have passed these days, and seldom spoke of their experiences when they were here, but I will always remember one uncle speaking of swimming through red seawater filled with bodies to try and reach the boats at Dunkirk, or another uncle whose patrol ran into some German soldiers unexpectedly at night in northern France, one of whom had the drop in my uncle. Out of desperation, he said the only German word he knew (achtung) which caused the Nazi to hesitate long enough for another of my uncles comrades to stab him. Or my grandfather, whose transporter was shot down and had to try and run back to friendly lines from field to field while pursued by German patrols who had seen it from miles around.

Then there's all the stories about the holocaust, POW camps, espionage, resistance fighters etc outside of just the straight up soldier on soldier combat. As I said, you're free to follow your interests, but the only reason you could have an interest in 40K lore and not find something in WW2 "fluff" to get enthusiastic about is your own ignorance.

 jreilly89 wrote:
[

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the models are great, the game is balanced and its cheap and fun, but rich background? Please. If there's one thing a lot of people know about 40k, even if they quit, it's that they like the lore. That's one of the biggest draws to 40k is the amount of background material. Hell, look at the amount of sales Black Library books have and the Horus Heresy. Lore is one of 40k's strongest points.

Yeah, sorry, but no. The fluff isn't as good as you'd like it to be. Especially as you get older, the fluff gets more and more silly and one dimensional. Dont get me wrong - what forgeworld puts out is generally quite good and fun (especially the heresy stuff) but black library is faff, at best. The rest? For every 'Second battle of the fang', or 'the gothic war', you've got a Kaldor draigo, codex:comedy robots, or other guff.

WWII is one fascinating point in history. The bravery of the soldiers and the scale of the conflict is truly awe inspiring. As information is declassified, reading reports on espionage and counter espionage feels like you were dropped into the cheesiest of James Bond novels, except it's real. All of the armies in WWII were put into situations where they did not want to be: Germany's long range tanks forced into close range city fights in Stalingrad, Russia's cheap armour divisions in a massed tank battle at Kursk, Britain by itself in a battle for air supremacy against the industrial might of Germany. They were then forced to overcome their limitations to gain victory: Russia's use of tank traps, minefields, deception, and speed at Kursk, Churchill directing Britain's industries in a coordinated manner to produce war material, Germany. . . they lost. Go look up the Battle of Kursk, largest tank battle in history. The ingenuity on Russia's part is amazing.

The war in the East had stories that would seem unbelievable. Singapore was captured from Britain by Japan because the defenses faced towards the sea. The Japanese used bicycles to cross the jungles that the British considered impassible. The British surrendered when the Japanese revealed themselves, captured by an under supplied, exhausted force several times smaller than they were.

The problem I have with playing historicals is that I am constantly reminded that those are real people. They stop being hungry hungry 'nids, faceless PDF suicide squads, or Ultramarines, they are now humans that I could be related to or know their relations. Winning a crushing victory in a historical always makes me feel guilty.

But that is just me, I'm a little weird.

I if someone really wants to watch The Cartoon Network, and you turn on National Geographic Channel, you're likely not going to get a good response.

Telling a 40Ker who is in the game mainly for the models and fluff to play Bolt Action instead is likely going to get the same reaction.

Sorry to continue the off topic but a Vindicare assassin has nothing on this man. (Although Wikipedia gives him 542 confirmed kills, inclusive of close quarter kills with his sub machine gun the number is probably nearer 700

Simo Häyhä

"During the Winter War (1939–1940) between Finland and the Soviet Union, Häyhä served as a sniper for the Finnish Army against the Red Army in the 6th Company of JR 34 during the Battle of Kollaa in temperatures between −40 °C (−40 °F) and −20 °C (−4 °F), dressed completely in white camouflage..Häyhä was credited with 542 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers by Finnish military historian Robert Brantberg, while the documentary shown on Finnish channel MTV Oy stated 505 sniper kills. A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was made for the Finnish snipers. All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days – an average of just over five kills per day – at a time of year with very few daylight hours.

Häyhä used a M/28-30 with serial number 60974, since it suited his small frame (1.6 m (5 ft 3 in)). The rifle is a shorter, Finnish White Guard militia variant of the Mosin–Nagant rifle, known as "Pystykorva" (literally "Spitz", due to the front sight's resemblance to the head of a spitz-type dog) chambered in the Finnish Mosin–Nagant cartridge 7.62×53R. He preferred iron sights over telescopic sights as to present a smaller target for the enemy (a sniper must raise his head higher when using a telescopic sight), to increase accuracy (a telescopic sight's glass can fog up easily in cold weather), and to aid in concealment (sunlight glare in telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position). As well as these tactics, he frequently packed dense mounds of snow in front of his position to conceal himself, provide padding for his rifle and reduce the characteristic puff of snow stirred up by the muzzle blast. He was also known to keep snow in his mouth whilst sniping, to prevent steamy breaths giving away his position in the cold air.

The Soviets' efforts to kill Häyhä included counter-snipers and artillery strikes, and on March 6, 1940, Häyhä was hit by an explosive[ bullet in his lower left jaw by a Russian soldier, blowing off his lower left cheek. He was picked up by fellow soldiers who said "half his face was missing", but he did not die, regaining consciousness on March 13, the day peace was declared."

By my reckoning in 40k terms WS 5 BS12 S3 T9 Sv6+, immune to instant death

 the Signless wrote:

The problem I have with playing historicals is that I am constantly reminded that those are real people. They stop being hungry hungry 'nids, faceless PDF suicide squads, or Ultramarines, they are now humans that I could be related to or know their relations. Winning a crushing victory in a historical always makes me feel guilty.

But that is just me, I'm a little weird.

No, I don't think you're weird, at least for that reason , for me tabletop wargaming is largely like my leisure reading, done as an escape from reality and WWII is all too real. I grew up hearing about it from my grandfather who was in the Army Corps of Engineers in the Pacific and told me some hair-raising stories as I was growing up; it doesn't help that my first degree was in history either.

I think most people "went off" when someone made a comment that amounted to 40K fluff being believable, implying that WWII background wasn't. Whether this person actually meant their comment this way or not is a different conversation.

IMO 40K fluff sucks and BL library writing is the worst fiction I've read in my life, but that's just my opinion. For me 40K is an excuse to spend some time with friends who may get more from it and the background than I do, have a few beers and roll some dice. I tried to get some people into WM/H and failed miserably so 40K it is for now, even with the terrible writing and rules.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I if someone really wants to watch The Cartoon Network, and you turn on National Geographic Channel, you're likely not going to get a good response.

Telling a 40Ker who is in the game mainly for the models and fluff to play Bolt Action instead is likely going to get the same reaction.

Agreed. As much as I am sadden by the Eldar release power buff (as an Eldar player), I only play 40K. I don't play video games, card games or any other table-top games. It is, has been, and always will be 40K for me.

The only thing I am going to "Rage-Quit!" is this thread

Ive never seen so many threads hate on 1 codex. This might be a world record in 40k history.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MarkDawg wrote:

Spoiler:

I have Salvation for all 40k Rage quitters.

This game has as rich of a background as 40K looks just as good or better on the table it's played at 28mm. The game is balanced and have a slick innovative rules system. It's also way cheaper than 40k for the price of one 1850 list you could be 3 huge kick ass armies! The creators of this game are Rick Priestly Alessio Cavatore. Fellas I give you

BOLT ACTION

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the models are great, the game is balanced and its cheap and fun, but rich background? Please. If there's one thing a lot of people know about 40k, even if they quit, it's that they like the lore. That's one of the biggest draws to 40k is the amount of background material. Hell, look at the amount of sales Black Library books have and the Horus Heresy. Lore is one of 40k's strongest points.

Don't get me wrong, if WW2/Historical isn't to your taste, that's perfectly ok, but please, get a fething grip. Dismissing the "fluff" of WW2 as boring? How disrespectful do you want to be?

I can only conclude you're young enough that you have yet to really gain the maturity to appreciate exactly how massive an impact the conflict had, from personal through to international levels. I don't blame you for that, it is perhaps only in the last few years, now I have small people in my life that I care about, that I've really begun to comprehend it. People (that's real people, not characters) made the sort of sacrifices on a daily basis that makes all the heroic last stand guff churned out by GW look exactly like the shallow, marketing driven PR that it ultimately is.

For instance, check out Douglas Bader, if you're unfmailiar, he lost both legs in a crash, yet still volunteered as a pilot and flew mission.

I'm of an age where my grandparent's generation were exactly the right age to be called into action. Most have passed these days, and seldom spoke of their experiences when they were here, but I will always remember one uncle speaking of swimming through red seawater filled with bodies to try and reach the boats at Dunkirk, or another uncle whose patrol ran into some German soldiers unexpectedly at night in northern France, one of whom had the drop in my uncle. Out of desperation, he said the only German word he knew (achtung) which caused the Nazi to hesitate long enough for another of my uncles comrades to stab him. Or my grandfather, whose transporter was shot down and had to try and run back to friendly lines from field to field while pursued by German patrols who had seen it from miles around.

Then there's all the stories about the holocaust, POW camps, espionage, resistance fighters etc outside of just the straight up soldier on soldier combat. As I said, you're free to follow your interests, but the only reason you could have an interest in 40K lore and not find something in WW2 "fluff" to get enthusiastic about is your own ignorance.

Why? I actually find WW1 and the Vietnam War much more interesting than WW2 in terms of both conflict and international influence. Trust me, I've read enough about WW2 and as much as I'm sure its interesting to some, I think there are other wars that don't get enough recognition because they are outshined by WW2. Hell, the American Civil War is fascinating, especially Sherman's March.

Besides, how is it disrespectful? I fully understand the sacrifice they made, but for a goddamn tabletop game, no, it doesn't hold my interest. It's as disrespectful as me saying I don't want to play Call of Duty 2, another game centered on WW2.

Also, you know what really shows maturity? Calling out someone else's maturity and telling them to get a ******** grip. Real mature. Thanks for reminding me why I originally had you on ignore.

Because you chose, deliberately or no, to phrase your opinion as a definitive statement.

Saying "something isn't to my taste" is absolutely fine, as I went to pains to point out. Saying "something is gak" is projecting a whole other image. Sure, it's essentially a semantic argument, but it can convey a very different tone. When you're talking about video games and music, it's not a problem, when you're referring to real world events where millions suffered and died? Slightly bigger of a deal.

But I won't bother writing more than this, as I guess I'm back on ignore now, because sticking your fingers in your ears, and telling someone you're doing it is the classy move in this instance.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Because you chose, deliberately or no, to phrase your opinion as a definitive statement.

Saying "something isn't to my taste" is absolutely fine, as I went to pains to point out. Saying "something is gak" is projecting a whole other image. Sure, it's essentially a semantic argument, but it can convey a very different tone. When you're talking about video games and music, it's not a problem, when you're referring to real world events where millions suffered and died? Slightly bigger of a deal.

But I won't bother writing more than this, as I guess I'm back on ignore now, because sticking your fingers in your ears, and telling someone you're doing it is the classy move in this instance.

For a tabletop game is literally what I was referring to. In that sense, yes, 40k is much more interesting to read about than WW2. I'd even prefer a 40k over WW2 for a FPS. But sure, ignore my entire argument. Hitler was the best and I'm glad WW2 happened. Happy?

Azreal13 wrote:Because you chose, deliberately or no, to phrase your opinion as a definitive statement...

Yep, this. You basically dismissed the heroism and suffering of millions of people as 'boring' because they didn't use ray guns.

jreilly89 wrote:For a tabletop game is literally what I was referring to.

No, you weren't. If that's what you intended, you need to think before you type rather than trying to post-rationalize your way out of a sticky situation.

In that sense, yes, 40k is much more interesting to read about than WW2. I'd even prefer a 40k over WW2 for a FPS

Still no, but that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just like people who say 'History is hard, but I like X-factor!'.

But sure, ignore my entire argument. Hitler was the best and I'm glad WW2 happened. Happy?

That underlined sentence is why people are ignoring your argument. But sure, thanks for playing.

 Hesh_Tank_On wrote:
Sorry to continue the off topic but a Vindicare assassin has nothing on this man. (Although Wikipedia gives him 542 confirmed kills, inclusive of close quarter kills with his sub machine gun the number is probably nearer 700

Simo Häyhä

"During the Winter War (1939–1940) between Finland and the Soviet Union, Häyhä served as a sniper for the Finnish Army against the Red Army in the 6th Company of JR 34 during the Battle of Kollaa in temperatures between −40 °C (−40 °F) and −20 °C (−4 °F), dressed completely in white camouflage..Häyhä was credited with 542 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers by Finnish military historian Robert Brantberg, while the documentary shown on Finnish channel MTV Oy stated 505 sniper kills. A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was made for the Finnish snipers. All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days – an average of just over five kills per day – at a time of year with very few daylight hours.

Häyhä used a M/28-30 with serial number 60974, since it suited his small frame (1.6 m (5 ft 3 in)). The rifle is a shorter, Finnish White Guard militia variant of the Mosin–Nagant rifle, known as "Pystykorva" (literally "Spitz", due to the front sight's resemblance to the head of a spitz-type dog) chambered in the Finnish Mosin–Nagant cartridge 7.62×53R. He preferred iron sights over telescopic sights as to present a smaller target for the enemy (a sniper must raise his head higher when using a telescopic sight), to increase accuracy (a telescopic sight's glass can fog up easily in cold weather), and to aid in concealment (sunlight glare in telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position). As well as these tactics, he frequently packed dense mounds of snow in front of his position to conceal himself, provide padding for his rifle and reduce the characteristic puff of snow stirred up by the muzzle blast. He was also known to keep snow in his mouth whilst sniping, to prevent steamy breaths giving away his position in the cold air.

The Soviets' efforts to kill Häyhä included counter-snipers and artillery strikes, and on March 6, 1940, Häyhä was hit by an explosive[ bullet in his lower left jaw by a Russian soldier, blowing off his lower left cheek. He was picked up by fellow soldiers who said "half his face was missing", but he did not die, regaining consciousness on March 13, the day peace was declared."

By my reckoning in 40k terms WS 5 BS12 S3 T9 Sv6+, immune to instant death

His rifle was a Model28/30 Finnish Carbine, I only regret not buying an example of it that was available locally (with the SkY marking for the Winter Guard carved into the stock by the factory).

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5CaQ37VYvw

 Iapedus wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:Because you chose, deliberately or no, to phrase your opinion as a definitive statement...

Yep, this. You basically dismissed the heroism and suffering of millions of people as 'boring' because they didn't use ray guns.

jreilly89 wrote:For a tabletop game is literally what I was referring to.

No, you weren't. If that's what you intended, you need to think before you type rather than trying to post-rationalize your way out of a sticky situation.

In that sense, yes, 40k is much more interesting to read about than WW2. I'd even prefer a 40k over WW2 for a FPS

Still no, but that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just like people who say 'History is hard, but I like X-factor!'.

But sure, ignore my entire argument. Hitler was the best and I'm glad WW2 happened. Happy?

That underlined sentence is why people are ignoring your argument. But sure, thanks for playing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the models are great, the game is balanced and its cheap and fun, but rich background? Please. If there's one thing a lot of people know about 40k, even if they quit, it's that they like the lore. That's one of the biggest draws to 40k is the amount of background material. Hell, look at the amount of sales Black Library books have and the Horus Heresy. Lore is one of 40k's strongest points.

Here, because apparently in this I admitted I'm a monster. I literally said that 40k has a richer background than WW2 for a tabletop game. Where in that did I devaluate the struggle of Jewish people post Holocaust or the effect of WW2? So sue me.

Does anyone else remember the last time this much hate was heaped on an Eldar codex? I seem to remember something about a Crystal Targeting Matrix. And remember the Lash Prince list? And how about how some people STILL refuse to play against Tau? This is always gonna happen.

 Owain wrote:
Does anyone else remember the last time this much hate was heaped on an Eldar codex? I seem to remember something about a Crystal Targeting Matrix. And remember the Lash Prince list? And how about how some people STILL refuse to play against Tau? This is always gonna happen.

Unless you're a DA player

Except that GW's lore is actually stupid and terrible and lacks any logic.

Martel732 wrote:
Except that GW's lore is actually stupid and terrible and lacks any logic.

A more polite, scholarly way of saying that is:
40k lore has one dimensional characters, (all space marines are basically the same character, villains are villains just to be villains, etc) inconsistent internal logic, and often times the writing itself is fairly poor. (Except Abbnet, he's still good.)

Valedor was really good but I haven't really read much other fluff besides a few codexes when I was REALLY bored.

Martel732 wrote:
Except that GW's lore is actually stupid and terrible and lacks any logic.

Most of the codex lore is kinda lame, but I really like the black library stuff (especially written by ADB & Abnett)

 Robisagg wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Except that GW's lore is actually stupid and terrible and lacks any logic.

Most of the codex lore is kinda lame, but I really like the black library stuff (especially written by ADB & Abnett)

I'm reading Crusade for Armageddon by Jonathan Green and it's pretty good.

 mugginns wrote:

Have you ever played Axis and Allies or watched a WW2 movie or played a video game? Enjoyed Counterstrike? These are all entertainment things based on real life. The good part about playing a tabletop game based on real events is that you get to do real research and learn a whole lot of useful history about real things that really happened.

I've never been keen on War shooters, or realistic war movies.
The more fantastical or unrealistic they were, and so make them more removed from the reality of the events in them make the more enjoyable to me (Band of Brothers vs Captain America: the first Avenger for example).

Games like CS also don't require any form of engagement of the imagination as well, while TT wargames are all about the imagination, for me.

 aprilmanha wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

Have you ever played Axis and Allies or watched a WW2 movie or played a video game? Enjoyed Counterstrike? These are all entertainment things based on real life. The good part about playing a tabletop game based on real events is that you get to do real research and learn a whole lot of useful history about real things that really happened.

I've never been keen on War shooters, or realistic war movies.
The more fantastical or unrealistic they were, and so make them more removed from the reality of the events in them make the more enjoyable to me (Band of Brothers vs Captain America: the first Avenger for example).

Games like CS also don't require any form of engagement of the imagination as well, while TT wargames are all about the imagination, for me.

That's fine. Fantasy wargaming isn't for everyone either. There are just as many dudes who look at 40k and see how silly it is and dismiss it.

 mugginns wrote:

That's fine. Fantasy wargaming isn't for everyone either. There are just as many dudes who look at 40k and see how silly it is and dismiss it.

Oh I think most people should look at w40K and think it silly It's part of the reason I used to enjoy it!
Its no fun when my escapist hobby is more gritty and realistic than my own life

 aprilmanha wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

That's fine. Fantasy wargaming isn't for everyone either. There are just as many dudes who look at 40k and see how silly it is and dismiss it.

Oh I think most people should look at w40K and think it silly It's part of the reason I used to enjoy it!
Its no fun when my escapist hobby is more gritty and realistic than my own life

Yeah, obviously we all have different reasons for wargaming. Some don't want to play a caricature.

 Owain wrote:
Does anyone else remember the last time this much hate was heaped on an Eldar codex? I seem to remember something about a Crystal Targeting Matrix. And remember the Lash Prince list? And how about how some people STILL refuse to play against Tau? This is always gonna happen.

False equivalency argument spotted. Compare scatter bikes to anything else in the game with similar weapons profiles and they are far and away better. Crystal target matrix is a POS that no one ever takes and is essentially a waste of points..

 mugginns wrote:

 aprilmanha wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

That's fine. Fantasy wargaming isn't for everyone either. There are just as many dudes who look at 40k and see how silly it is and dismiss it.

Oh I think most people should look at w40K and think it silly It's part of the reason I used to enjoy it!
Its no fun when my escapist hobby is more gritty and realistic than my own life

Yeah, obviously we all have different reasons for wargaming. Some don't want to play a caricature.

It's almost as if people have their own opinions on what makes a good wargame... Gasp!

But for serious, I love 40K and will continue playing it. But I also get why people shy away from it and prefer Warmachine or Bolt Action or w/e else catches their fancy. Trying to compare these games is silly, they have separate aesthetics and play styles for a reason. To give us options.