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According to Phil Kelly, there will not be an update bringing wargear into line with the new Codex Space Marines.

So stormshields for wolves, both angels and Templars will be 4+, hth only etc etc.


Good job GW.

thats stupid but owell i play ultramarines haha.

It is odd.

I know why they aren't going to do it, but they really should have.

It would have been the work of an afternoon for someone at GW HQ.

Weird...

General Hobbs wrote:So stormshields for wolves, both angels and Templars will be 4+, hth only etc etc.

The Wolves codex says to get the rules from the SM codex, so they'll get most of the new wargear toys. And Storm Shields are cheap for Wolves...

I think the point is that you can't just upgrade the abilities of something in one codex to be unified with another without changing the point value of said item, it would unbalance things. It might not be palatable, but it isn't possible to affect blanket changes in effects without a blanket change in cost.

Heh. I had hopes for just one moment that GW could have tried to make the game better through consistency.
I should have listened to my inner cynic and just remembered that GW couldn't be bothered to be that on the ball.

Hell. Atleast 3rd ed tried to be consistent.

5th ed is going to be so much fun! Let confusion reign!

"Err wait a sec...I thought that apothecaries did this one thing?"

"Nope. These apothecaries do this thing and those apothecaries do that thing."

"Ok. I shoot my cyclone at you"

"Ok. I shoot my cyclone at you too!"

"Hey! WTF! How the hell did you get two shots?"

"Remember, green marines have this cyclone, blue marines have that cyclone."

" "

Way to go GW! Keeping 40K awesome since Never!

Greebynog wrote:I think the point is that you can't just upgrade the abilities of something in one codex to be unified with another without changing the point value of said item, it would unbalance things. It might not be palatable, but it isn't possible to affect blanket changes in effects without a blanket change in cost.

I want to agree with this and normally I would. But lets compare the DA to the new SM who we pretty much know whats going to happen with. Both of these codecies are very similar, if not copy pastes of some entries.

Yet, for example, new marines get 2 shot cyclones and DA get 1? Sorry, the logic you give would be sound if it wasn't for instances such as that. DA termies are even more expensive than vanilla termies. DWA rule doesnt merit a 3 point increase. Nor does fearless wich is a drawback, not a buff.

Phil's words were "to give the Ultramarines something special".

Edit: They also showed us the greens/resins for two of the upcoming metal Legion of the Damned models and the finished Storm.

General Hobbs wrote:

According to Phil Kelly, there will not be an update bringing wargear into line with the new Codex Space Marines.

So stormshields for wolves, both angels and Templars will be 4+, hth only etc etc.


Good job GW.

Really, I think you are way off........There will be FAQ's that will bring them in line when the codex is released.

Cheers

kinghammer wrote:

Really, I think you are way off........There will be FAQ's that will bring them in line when the codex is released.

Cheers

Nope, both Phil Kelly, Arch-writist, and Jes Goodwin stated it wasn't going to happen.

Platuan4th wrote:Phil's words were "to give the Ultramarines something special".

You mean "special" as in "special" until they redo the other marine codices and give them the same 'special' stuff? Brilliant.

Smurf: "We are blue marines! our LR can hold 6 termies, even though its the exact same thing as everyone elses LR's"

Deathwing: " but...we are deathwing! We specialize in this sort of stuff!"

Smurf: "Suck it, joyboy! "

Whatever.

good thing i started repainting those BA of mine snot green. Anyone have any flamers to spare?

listen to this

No pictures allowed I'm afraid, but worth a listen.. if only so all the non brits can laugh at the accents.

At the Q & A at the end they mention NO update for dark Angels, Templasre etc with the new rules. The lack of update for BA surprised me a little, with them not actually being aprinted codex and all.

And some still pics, thanks to Mr. Dragonlady linky

Eh... I may just play Space Marines when I want a marine army and Dark Angels when I want a bike or termie army.

Then, in 3 years, the DA/BA will be updated again to include all the toys. Would be an easy update, like Tau Empire, almost all of the models are already out in plastic for the DA anyway.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:Then, in 3 years, the DA/BA will be updated again to include all the toys. Would be an easy update...

But thats the point. You KNOW that they will have a huge spasm of creative malaise and just fork the upgraded options to those armies anyways, so why make people wait years to get it when you can simply FAQ it until they do get a new codex?

This has all the ear marks of illogical asshattery, I tell you.

Hellfury wrote: This has all the ear marks of illogical asshattery, I tell you.

There is a 'logical' asshattery?

I guess this is why not to many people like the Ultramarines? Of course Space Wolves will reap the benefits though right? They need something to help them anyway, and I don't even play them.

So what the hell am I supposed to do with 100 robed marines and 90 Terminators now?

Well good thing my Marines are not painted like blood angels or I would be screwed!

Thanks GW, it was an honor playing a marine army that meant something to the fluff of the universe besides "we are strict codex, we have a notable divergence..."

RIP Fiction, and so help me god if Graham McNeil puts out another Spacesmurf book I will throw a fit.

Hellfury wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:Then, in 3 years, the DA/BA will be updated again to include all the toys. Would be an easy update...

But thats the point. You KNOW that they will have a huge spasm of creative malaise and just fork the upgraded options to those armies anyways, so why make people wait years to get it when you can simply FAQ it until they do get a new codex?

This has all the ear marks of illogical asshattery, I tell you.

Hellfury,

While I fully argee with your previous sentiments that all marine armies should be combined into a single Space Marine book for consistency sake, the reality is that is not the road that has been chosen.

Players (and GW) obviously prefer that marine chapters that are popular enough to be a big enough army get their own codex because, besides the rules, it gives them a chance to flush out that army with full fluff, artwork and minis for that army.

Cramming every marine chapter into a single book would mean that GW would have less reason to promote and sell their marine miniatures which is obviously central to their business.


But once you go down the multiple marine codex path, I have to disagree that it is a no-brainer to publish FAQ updates to keep the different codices in line. Once that choice is made you essentially guarantee that new players who pick up one of the variant army lists must also go online and find the FAQ to figure out why other players with the same army are playing differently from them.

As it stands now, your codex rules are your codex rules. Yeah, Cyclones in one marine army function differently from Cyclones in another marine army, but in this case we are talking about two distinct armies with two distinct codices.


As a veteran who doesn't mind extensive FAQs and prefers fluff continuity, would I prefer to have FAQs making all the similar rules in the marine codices the same? Absolutely. But do I understand why that is also a big can of worms that GW doesn't want to get into? Absolutely.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:So what the hell am I supposed to do with 100 robed marines and 90 Terminators now?

Use the Space Marine codex if you prefer the armies in there? It's not like the rules in the DA codex have changed with the release of the SM codex. Use the DA codex if you want, use the SM codex if you like it better.

Well, just think of it this way. On one hand Deathwing terminators scream really loud and push their teleport buttons really hard and this makes them teleport really fast when they Deathwing Assault. On the other hand Ultramarine terminators scream really loud and clench their sphincters really hard and squeeze out an extra missile with each volley from their cyclone missile launchers. These important differences are reflected in the new rules. Enjoy.

In third, the various chapters were sub codices, and so relied heavily on the base codex, and were affected by it's update.

In fourth, they become seperate books (except for wolves), and now Dark Angels, ruleswise, are no more linked to a new SM codex than a new Vampire Counts army book. Yes, their stormsheilds are different, but so are their captains. their chaplains are better, etc.

Exactly, the ultramarine termies also have more bald guys, which clearly gives them the edge.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Well, just think of it this way. On one hand Deathwing terminators scream really loud and push their teleport buttons really hard and this makes them teleport really fast when they Deathwing Assault. On the other hand Ultramarine terminators scream really loud and clench their sphincters really hard and squeeze out an extra missile with each volley from their cyclone missile launchers. These important differences are reflected in the new rules. Enjoy.

QFT.

As the Renegade Really Bad Loyalist Marines stare on emo-like.

I guess this means that my Deathwing Assault Cannons still use the old style Rending too.

Actually, the idea that the weapons won't be updated has me mad as . I can understand not allowing new units, but there is no good justification for having different rules for the same wargear. None.

Other than the justification that Yakface explained up above...

Also, show me in the DA book where the rending rules are explained. Yeah it sucks that regular Space Marines now have a few extra advantages but oh well, they had advantages in the last edition as well.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

IMHO, there are very, very few areas where Dark Angels are superior rules-wise than Vanilla SMs now (wait. . .what has changed? ), but they are there:

Dark Angels still have Rites of Battle and psychic hoods that affect the entire battlefield. I'm sure there are a few more scattered around too.


However, the cool little changes that SM get in the new book are definitely tastier than anything the DA's have IMHO.

Of course, the only way to play an all termie army that I can see is to play Dark Angels. So there's that going for 'em I guess.

The reason wargear might have different rules is simply whats used by the non-codex chapters isn't the exact same wargear used by those following more closely. The BA, SW, DA are stuck in their ways... BT are on crusade.

Hapless justification given I do think its silly not to update the rules via an FAQ, it'd sure give White Dwarf something to publish, God knows they need it.

I think that with the size and scope of the new Space Marine codex it shows that GW could probably round up all the others (DA, BA, BT, SW... etc) and do a Non-Codex Space Marine: Codex book pretty well. That would really be the best bet, it would mean less waiting between updates, it would make it easier to keep two books in line rather than five. I think that if you cut out all the redundancies in fluff and "how to" between the four non-codex books, you could get them down to the same size as the new Space Marine Codex. At that point it become a matter of nuance of how the common and army specific options would work together within the structure of the book.


Looking at codex Dark Angels what we have is a book that is only of any benefit if you choose play the elements of the Dark Angels that follow the Index Astares least. I think that really is what the individual non-codex chapters space marine books should be for. If you aren't playing Ravenwing or Deathwing and you aren't using a special character is there really that much of a reason to use that Codex... no.

Platuan4th wrote:Phil's words were "to give the Ultramarines something special".

I take it back. Phil isn't the only person in the Dev Team who knows what he's doing as, clearly, none of them would know a good set of rules even if it came up and bit them in the face.

BYE

Ozymandias wrote:Marines now have a few extra advantages but oh well, they had advantages in the last edition as well.

These aren't 'advantages' Ozzy. These are items that are identicle having different rules in two different places. Can't you see how bad that is from a rules design perspective?

I mean, I really thought GW 'got' this when they went and made the Universal Special Rules section in 4th. Rather than having four sets of True Grit with slightly different wording, they codified a single rule that covered anyone with True Grit. And this applied to lots of other rules.

Now GW is regressing. Special Rules that should be identicle can have differences between books, and now weagear and weapons that is the same can be different between books.

It's a joke, and, more than anything ever before it, it shows how little GW cares about their rules. It's all about pushing the shiny new model kit, and the rules... well they're not even tertiary. They're an inconvinence to them - a necessary evil they have to go through when releasing shiny new model kits.

Now I don't want a Legions Codex, 'cause I'm afraid an Emperor's Children Blast Master will be different to a Noise Marine Blastmaster, or we'll get 5 different versions of the Reaper Autocannon.

BYE

I'm pissed. I can't say it any other way. It's an asinine decision to not have consistency between pieces of wargear with the same name. Using this example:

Once that choice is made you essentially guarantee that new players who pick up one of the variant army lists must also go online and find the FAQ to figure out why other players with the same army are playing differently from them.

New players are also going to be wondering why their wargear with the same name, same point cost(or more expensive point cost in some places), just isn't as good. Why do my more exepensive terminators not get a 3+ save? Why does my Land Raider hold less? Etc. Aren't all these built off the STC?

Looks like my Ultrawing "counts as" is going back to being codex as I bring the Tac squads back out.

HBMC: Going back to the days of 3rd ed when you needed a full 3-ring binder to carry all your extra rules and FAQ's is just as bad IMHO. Would I like to have these extras? Hell yes, I fething play Dark Angels, but I also understand the need to make things simple for people entering the hobby and having numerous FAQ's and errata can be overwhelming.

I can wait for a few years till the DA 5th ed book (hopefully they'll do a DA/BA book like 2nd Ed).

Ozymandias, King of Kings