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I spoke with my friend in Nottingham, he had a word with the guy writing the new IG dex (Name I won't reveal due to his popularity on the boards (Good or bad I won't say!)).
The focus of the new IG dex is troops and so is the only information I have regarding new Dex.
First of all Guard are now 4 points each, but this is the "Ground level" guard so to speak. They can have no Special weapons or heavy weapons at all, in all respects they are the new conscripts but with normal guard stats.

There are several types of Platoon as we have already heard, Heavy Weapons, Forward Team, Armoured Devision, Airborne
In addition, each platoon is able to include 1 supporting unit, and this will NOT count towards the FOC.
The supporting unit varys in accordence to how its platoon is organised.

Heavy weapon platoons may take 3 heavy weapons per squad (10 man squad) but no special weapons, these is a points increase per guardsmen but he didn't reveal these. The heavy weapons platoon may take a Fire Support Squad or a Standard Leman Russ. There is additional heavy weapons being given to the guard which are only avaliable in this Fire support squad and not in the main platoon squads.

Forward Team is able to take 3 special weapons (Flamer, Melta, Plasma, GL) but no heavy weapons, in addition they gain Infiltrate. Their supporting units include Veteran Squad and Sentinel Squad. The Veteran squad also gains Infiltrate.

Armoured devision is mounted in Chimeras. They can take a combination of either 3 special weapons or 1 heavy and 1 special weapon. Their support units are Leman Russ Battle tank and Veteran Squad who must also be mounted in a Chimera.

Airborne I was not given much information about but I am guessing it is deepstrike and probably something revolving around Storm Troopers and Valkarey.

The reason Leman Russ are being included in the platoons as they want to push it being the main battle tank of the Imperial Guard and have it represented so.

Interesting, this tallies in with Dakka members wishlists.

I wonder if they have been listening.

Orlanth wrote:Interesting, this tallies in with Dakka members wishlists.

I wonder if they have been listening.

Na, it just shows that is you guess enough times you will eventually get something right.

I'm a guard fan, yet I'm not really too enthused about any of these rumors. 4 points per guard ? is that really a better idea then just beefing them up a bit to reflect their current points cost ? i cant imagine them being a tournament army if i have to setup 150+ models. if Allesio is the one writing the book, then i will hold out hope for a competitive army, otherwise I'm pretty sure they will remain a Nerf army

I disagree. Normal humans should have the statline the infantry have, but be cheaper. 4 pts sounds right.

Hmm... these rumors sound good! I'd love to have 3 specials (although I bet it ends up being 2) in a transported squad.

I'm confused about the "ground level" guardsmen. Why would anybody take them at all? Are the other Platoons mentioned going to be "upgrades" for regular guardsmen? Sounds weird and overcomplicated. Why should the option to have a transport be a premium cost per model?

I'd guess the 4 types of platoons are upgrades. The 4pt guardsmen like he said are conscripts, people will take them for the same reason they'd take them now, cannon fodder. I get the feeling we'll see those fire support squads lined up with several rows of conscript padding.

I'm betting when they get upgraded to those platoon types their point costs will go up to something closer to if not higher than the current cost per guardsmen.

They won't be very useful without Independent Commissars, which I doubt makes it into the book.

Sometimes its good that they run away.

Dexy wrote:Heavy weapon platoons may take 3 heavy weapons per squad (10 man squad) but no special weapons, these is a points increase per guardsmen but he didn't reveal these. The heavy weapons platoon may take a Fire Support Squad or a Standard Leman Russ. There is additional heavy weapons being given to the guard which are only avaliable in this Fire support squad and not in the main platoon squads.

I'm having a hard time thinking of what new could they possibly give to fire support squads, unless it's some kind of a support weapon like a thudd gun or a rapier, but even those are ultimately redundant.

Also, the idea of line infantry platoons being simply 25+ guys with lasguns makes them, even at 4pts per man, negligible in offensive power. The maths and the metagame are simply such that firing volley after volley into the enemy, while accurate to the background material, is frustrating to play, even when it succeeds in being cost-effective (not always the case). Also, given the choice, I'm sure nobody would take line infantry at all, unless the rules force them to (conscripts are of questionable value, and that's with the 20-50 squad size).

I'm having a hard time thinking of what new could they possibly give to fire support squads, unless it's some kind of a support weapon like a thudd gun or a rapier, but even those are ultimately redundant.

I have heard Heavy Stubbers. Or :rool:: Twin-linked Heavy Stubbers.

Also, the idea of line infantry platoons being simply 25+ guys with lasguns makes them, even at 4pts per man, negligible in offensive power. The maths and the metagame are simply such that firing volley after volley into the enemy, while accurate to the background material, is frustrating to play, even when it succeeds in being cost-effective (not always the case). Also, given the choice, I'm sure nobody would take line infantry at all, unless the rules force them to (conscripts are of questionable value, and that's with the 20-50 squad size).

QFT. From the other "new" codices it seems they are steering away from units that are all but useless.

Maybe the support squads are where they're sticking the artillery pieces.

I'd take line infantry, but that's because I use conscripts as speed bumps and it looks like they're effectively getting a stat boost.

Oh, there was a support unit for the line infantry but he didn't start writing down notes until the 4 other types of platoon were talked about.

I'm more worried about what they could do to the Russ. Seeing as they are allowing for more Russ tanks I've got an odd feeling that something like the armour and main weaponry might be kicked down a notch or three.

Other than that things are sounding really good.

Does a heavy weapons platoon count as Troops or Heavy Support?

Orlanth wrote:Interesting, this tallies in with Dakka members wishlists.

I wonder if they have been listening.

Seems like a LOT of the changes in the Ork dex where in line with the bitching at the time. The Clan rules were lifted directly from a poster (with his blessing) on the Eye of Terror. In recent times they've added indexes, pages numbers, etc. A lot of loopholes have been cleaned up, or changed. Then there are the GW employees that post from time to time. I think they ARE listening. Maybe they don't always agree, but they're taking some of the feedback seriously.

Then again, it's "cool" to bitch and moan on an internet forum or something.....

Personally I think that a huge IG gun line would be a very effective tool, but I think that the logistics would be hard. Orks are 6 pts a model, and I'm very weary of playing tournament level games, and being forced to move 200 models. With IG it wouldn't be as bad, since you can set them up once, but then there's also the modeling, painting, etc.

As with many things, "we'll see," is probably the best answer. If true, could be good, could be bad.

You know, this could be really interesting...

Meatshields with no specials/heavies, could actually be great at 4 points a piece. Separating the specials/heavies out would allow them to focus their fire on targets of highest priority, while the lasgun squads focussed on keeping infantry off the specialty squads.

I think that a simple troop type - you know what I mean, guys fighting who have had a frontal lobotomy - would be good to seperate the men from the proverbial ratlings.

I mean, we need a tougher central core of Guard to make up for every time when our men haven't survived a turn because of ultra-crappiness pills prescribed to them by GW Rules.

Roll on (fly on?) entire platoons of half-decent non-Stormtrooper lads mounted in Valkyries, if you please.

~sA

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Dexy wrote:

Also, the idea of line infantry platoons being simply 25+ guys with lasguns makes them, even at 4pts per man, negligible in offensive power. The maths and the metagame are simply such that firing volley after volley into the enemy, while accurate to the background material, is frustrating to play, even when it succeeds in being cost-effective (not always the case). Also, given the choice, I'm sure nobody would take line infantry at all, unless the rules force them to (conscripts are of questionable value, and that's with the 20-50 squad size).

Imperial Grots! If the new toys are killy and fun like the orcs were, you sometimes need a unit or two that is not worth your opponents time and shots for objective grabbing.

Mpeh

Gasp, could it be, Gaurd with Grav-Chutes..... Nah...

This still doesn't solve the major problem with Guard in 5th edition - That they lose 1/3 of thier games before the game starts do to kill points. Looks like they're still keeping the lots of fragile squads system.

Hopefully they put in a fix so that Guard is playable.

And are all these upgrades troop choices, or is the only troop choice the barenaked guard with the heavy weapon one being heavy, the infiltrating being elite and the dropping being fast attack?

The Guard should be troop focused so I'd imagine all of those should be troop choices. Tanks sounds good, lots of tanks It's what every guard player wants really, at least one MBT per squad, it's what any modern proper fighting force has Orks can legally field 8 battlewagons if you beard it up like hell, and they don't have their points dropped, i'd like to see the LR stay about the same really, certainly not nerfed.

And 4 points per basic guardsman before upgrades? Sweet!!! Everyone can field a couple of essentially grot units, either use them as speedbumps, mobile cover, el-cheapo objective securing units etc etc. Ok, so they'll get shot to bits and run away IF the enemy fires at them... but your opponent is going to poo himself when he sees six LRs on the other side of the table and throw everything at them, completely ignoring the 60-80 point squad of grunts who are the real threat to objectives. Of course, if he doesn't ignore them and shoots your super cheap units to death, blow him to hell with your tanks

There are several types of Platoon as we have already heard, Heavy Weapons, Forward Team, Armoured Devision, Airborne In addition, each platoon is able to include 1 supporting unit, and this will NOT count towards the FOC.

So Guard get different "specialist" flavors, like CSM Cult Marines? OK, I suppose.

Though I'm surprised about Heavy Weapons Platoon having the Heavies per 10-man squad. It seems like that's against current design principles. I'd guess that to be similar to the current "standard" Platoon, with the option for a 3-Heavy HWS attached.

Otherwise, the breakdown as ground-pounders, infiltrate, mech, and drop makes sense.

And adding the Russ isn't bad. I'm curious to see how this pans out.

skyth wrote:This still doesn't solve the major problem with Guard in 5th edition - That they lose 1/3 of thier games before the game starts do to kill points. Looks like they're still keeping the lots of fragile squads system.

Hopefully they put in a fix so that Guard is playable.

And are all these upgrades troop choices, or is the only troop choice the barenaked guard with the heavy weapon one being heavy, the infiltrating being elite and the dropping being fast attack?

I'm shocked that someone else agrees with me on this. I love my guard, I have tons of painted vostroyans and I can't bear the wait much longer for the new dex.

But what Skyth said is painfully true. The mini-units concept is tired and lame and needs to go away. Deployment, movement phases, shooting phases, multiple units in assault... all of these things become laborious chores when fighting guard.

It pains me to say this, because guard players tend to be great guys generally. But IG armies monopolize the time in tournament settings. In 2 hours games the guard player is active in a much greater majority than their opponent.

Their set-up takes longer, their movement phases take at least as long as others (drop troop reserves being rolled for, places selected, scatters rolled, models placed, repeat), their shooting phase is twice as long, with 20+ separate small units shooting, who has shot and who has not is difficult to track.

And sadly, this abuse doesn't even play into the guard players favor competitively. They get to "play" more 40k than their opponent. But they never finish their games before time is reached, they get rolled over completely in kill point missions, and they take an inordinate number of morale tests.

These rumors are no good. "meta-units" like infantry platoons are well-intentioned but have no place in 5th edition 40k.

INFANTRY PLATOON - 10-30 models (single unit), 1-3 heavy weapons, 1-3 special weapons, lieutenant - 'platoon drill' While the lieutenant is alive, heavy weapons may shoot at a different target than the rest of the unit.

Let the players imagine the complex organization of units internally, using their imagination. Keep the number of units down, speed up play and increase enjoyment for both players... Then move on to the interesting FOC slots in 40k, elites and heavies.

Guard aren't a time problem if...
- they stay in the Chimera the entire time
- they never move
- they spend a couple turns in Reserves

So that means that GW should encourage Mech Guard, Cameoline Heavy Weapons, and Drop Troops / Infiltrators (for Outflank).

What loses out?

Ordinary Platoons of footsloggers without any Heavy Weapons.

So don't give the option!

Well I could have sworn that they are coming out with a 40k version of the movement tray. That would certainly help.

Shep wrote:

skyth wrote:This still doesn't solve the major problem with Guard in 5th edition - That they lose 1/3 of thier games before the game starts do to kill points. Looks like they're still keeping the lots of fragile squads system.

Hopefully they put in a fix so that Guard is playable.

And are all these upgrades troop choices, or is the only troop choice the barenaked guard with the heavy weapon one being heavy, the infiltrating being elite and the dropping being fast attack?

I'm shocked that someone else agrees with me on this. I love my guard, I have tons of painted vostroyans and I can't bear the wait much longer for the new dex.

But what Skyth said is painfully true. The mini-units concept is tired and lame and needs to go away. Deployment, movement phases, shooting phases, multiple units in assault... all of these things become laborious chores when fighting guard.

It pains me to say this, because guard players tend to be great guys generally. But IG armies monopolize the time in tournament settings. In 2 hours games the guard player is active in a much greater majority than their opponent.

Their set-up takes longer, their movement phases take at least as long as others (drop troop reserves being rolled for, places selected, scatters rolled, models placed, repeat), their shooting phase is twice as long, with 20+ separate small units shooting, who has shot and who has not is difficult to track.

And sadly, this abuse doesn't even play into the guard players favor competitively. They get to "play" more 40k than their opponent. But they never finish their games before time is reached, they get rolled over completely in kill point missions, and they take an inordinate number of morale tests.

These rumors are no good. "meta-units" like infantry platoons are well-intentioned but have no place in 5th edition 40k.

INFANTRY PLATOON - 10-30 models (single unit), 1-3 heavy weapons, 1-3 special weapons, lieutenant - 'platoon drill' While the lieutenant is alive, heavy weapons may shoot at a different target than the rest of the unit.

Let the players imagine the complex organization of units internally, using their imagination. Keep the number of units down, speed up play and increase enjoyment for both players... Then move on to the interesting FOC slots in 40k, elites and heavies.

But then they'll just be really weedy pink Orks.

I LOVE the current platoon set up, but then I just like playing them, I don't mind if it takes forever or that they suck, I just like the fluffiness and how cool it looks.

Shep wrote:The mini-units concept is tired and lame and needs to go away. Deployment, movement phases, shooting phases, multiple units in assault... all of these things become laborious chores when fighting guard.

It pains me to say this, because guard players tend to be great guys generally. But IG armies monopolize the time in tournament settings. In 2 hours games the guard player is active in a much greater majority than their opponent.

Their set-up takes longer, their movement phases take at least as long as others (drop troop reserves being rolled for, places selected, scatters rolled, models placed, repeat), their shooting phase is twice as long, with 20+ separate small units shooting, who has shot and who has not is difficult to track.

And sadly, this abuse doesn't even play into the guard players favor competitively. They get to "play" more 40k than their opponent. But they never finish their games before time is reached, they get rolled over completely in kill point missions, and they take an inordinate number of morale tests.

These rumors are no good. "meta-units" like infantry platoons are well-intentioned but have no place in 5th edition 40k.

Let the players imagine the complex organization of units internally, using their imagination. Keep the number of units down, speed up play and increase enjoyment for both players... Then move on to the interesting FOC slots in 40k, elites and heavies.

First GW has said it doesn't care about tournament play, that it constitutes only 5% of players. They've pretty much said they don't want to compromise the main way they intend players to play game the game for such a small percentage of players.

Next if playing against or as guards take up too much of your time, don't do it. I don't complain against Ork or Nid armies that that sometimes have just as many models.

Its not an abuse, its an unintended consequence of the nature of the army, abuse is overly dramatic.

I also think calling platoons a "meta-unit" is a bit wrong. When one says something is part of a meta-game or is a meta-unit, it means that it is a function of the rules for the sake of rules without any other basis than rules, such an acceptable basis could be fluff or back story for instance. The fact that 40k is played with armies of 2000 or 2500 pts, makes "armies" a meta-unit, the fact that the IG are army are actually defined by a structure that is separate from the point buy meta-game actually makes them into something less arbitrary and less meta-game than point sized mosh-pit military structures other armies have.

FOC and point buys are meta-game. While you might have something with your sentiment that the platoon structure be left out it helps address certain issues that IG army has.

Platoon structure has been a core part of the Guard since 2nd Ed. Removing it would be a fundamental change to the Guard, and I really don't see them doing that at all.

Plus most Guard players kind've enjoy playing Guard with Platoons (if they didn't, they wouldn't play Guard would they?), so I think the outcry would be huge.

BYE

@aka: By definition, a "meta-unit" is a unit composed of units, just like a "meta-game" is the game of the games.

So a Platoon being a unit of sub-units means it must be a meta-unit.