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2014/03/03 03:50:17
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. For example, in basketball, not only is there a time clock, but there is also a shot clock as well. You only get so much time with the ball before you have to shoot (which would be 24-seconds for the NBA). It is a common tactic for teams to "milk the clock" and hold the ball for 23 seconds before shooting it to try to minimize the time the opponent has with the ball. Would you consider this tainted as well? Same with Football and other sports as well. Even competitive Chess is a timed event as well. Would you consider that tainted as well if you didn't get a chance to fully think out your moves because of time? You had better plan for your opponent possibly delaying the game, whether deliberately or not. Now I understand you don't like that, but if you want to play competitively in a tournament environment, then it's something you have to get used to and plan for as well, whether you are playing against Mr scumbag asshat or a newbie playing a horde army in his very first tournament.
Sorry but all your analogies fall flat on their face. In basketball and football either team can stop the clock during the game whether it's timeouts, free throw fouls, or taking the play out of bounds. Neither player can stop the clock in 40k. In basketball many points are scored without the clock running at all for foul shots. Basketball also does not allow much stalling because there is a shotclock. In football the offense can run a play to the sidelines and have the clock stopped or throw an incomplete pass to stop the clock. Stalling is frowned upon in football with a delay of game penalty. How about one of those in 40k. In chess the clock only runs on your opponents turn which does not happen in 40k. There are plenty of other sports where their is no clock, like baseball.
No I'm sorry but the meta within the meta is game stalling. The person who goes second does it and the person who goes first dreads it. .
Put a chess clock on these same players. The clock runs during their move phase and stops for shooting and close combat. You will see them finish games. The true winner of the game can be manipulated by the manipulation of the clock.
Last two rounds of a tourney all games that have a bearing on overall finish to completion. It's not like you guys didn't have the time at the LVO
I just watched a tourney game online. Stalling or not I saw a move where the Eldar player measured his move with 3 Jetbikes. Measured the distance they would be from Centurions, measure the move again. Shuffle a clipboard from one open space to another. Measure the distance from the centurions again. Shuffle the clipboard back. Move the first Jetbike. Measure it to the centurions, move the clipboard, shuffle that one Jetbike and measure it to a Thunderfire cannon, shuffle it again, measure it to the centurions again, shuffle the clipboard and then move the other two Jetbikes in the unit, finally measuring to the centurions for the last time.
That was one move. There were more move to make after that. I ran the Adepticon gladiator for a few years and saw all kinds of stalling going on over and over again. The most egregious example happened in the finals one year. I said right there this game would go to completion no matter the time. The stalling player finished the game in half an hour after that.
It happens in sports, especially when 1 team is ahead and the other is behind. They don't play at their "natural" pace. The leading team will usually take their time with their possessions, thereby minimizing the time the opponent has with the ball. This is especially evident when time is winding down. Stopping the clock by calling timeouts has nothing to do with it. With only half a minute left, you can bet the team that is leading with the basketball is going to kill time down to 6-8 seconds before they shoot. That is the sports method of "stalling".
In football, its the same. The winning team, when it gets down to the last 2-min or so, will stall and down the ball after about half a min. 2nd down and they do the same. Now they've got 2 more downs to do this tactic again until time runs out. Your analogy of running plays out the sidelines or throwing incomplete passes doesn't count. That's because it's usually the team that is behind who will attempt these tactics. That is not called stalling. That is called trying to stop the clock so that they can plan their next play. The leading team doesn't want to stop the clock. They want to let it run.
I agree that players sometime do try to stall the game. But a lot of the times, it isn't deliberate. Sometimes, players are naturally slow. Sometimes, their armies are unnaturally complex and/or has a lot of units. Sometimes, their armies make maximal use of all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. Sometimes, there are rules disputes that takes up time as you wait for an arbitrator to decide what the call will be. In any case, if you do feel that the person is deliberately slow-playing, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Tell him that he is taking too long. Point out to him that he needs to play faster because his turns are taking twice or 3x as long as yours. Call the judge over if you have to. Sorry to say, but serious tournament players need to manage their times and sometimes, their opponent's as well.
I do agree that in the semi-finals and finals, that the TO's should give the players adequate time to complete, even if it exceeds the alotted time.
It's good that as a TO, you did something about the event you were running. That is a sign of a good TO - someone who is proactive and does something to push the pace of the game. Bravo.
jy2 wrote: Call the judge over if you have to. Sorry to say, but serious tournament players need to manage their times and sometimes, their opponent's as well.
I think this is a big thing that so many tournament players fail to do in tournament 40k. In games like Magic, with a more organized competitive scene, players learn early that if there are any rules disputes or issues with your opponent, you immediately throw your hand in your air and yell "JUDGE!" Then you explain the situation / ask your question and get your issue dealt with. For whatever reason, in 40k, people are unwilling to do this nearly as much. It probably has to do with the "Beer and Pretzels" origins of the game, or with the long history of opponent judged "sportsmanship" (meaning if you do anything like calling your opponent out for cheating, you were going to get docked and lose any chance of winning yourself), but I think people need to embrace the fact that you aren't trying to attack your opponent when you call a judge, just ensure that everyone is on the same page and the game is going smoothly.
2014/03/03 05:55:03
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
2014/03/03 07:02:19
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-parcel with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player with a competitive list. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you). Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
SwistakCZC wrote: Ive great time while reading your reports, its nice that ive encountered one of your topics, Im gonna read them regularly.
Anyway you wrote that you feel like you didnt make any mistake, I think that you could prevent losing 2 of your barges, especially the one shot by stormtalon at its rear armour. Those are 2 points due to big guns and maybe those barges could shoot at some more bikers or take objective (not sure of ths because I dont remember well situation on a table). Its sad that game #5 was so unlucky for you! :(
It's not a mistake. There's no way I could save all my barges, and I wouldn't really wanted to. This is why:
1. His outflanking bikes have a 12"+18-24" strike range with their gravguns (don't remember the exact range of those gravguns). There's no way I could have avoided that. That's 9 shots with a good chance to immobilize my barges (he only needs 1 to do so). An immobilized barge is as good as a dead barge. I just can't protect my AB's if he had really wanted to take them out so why bother.
2. The only way to avoid his talons from shooting at my barge's rear was to point them practically due north (straight at my opponent's deployment zone). That means I wouldn't have been able to fire at his command squad, which were the only unit besides the TFC's that were on the table. So the trade-off is defense for offense....and there's no guarantee that my opponent would have even shot at them! Make it too hard to kill and he'd just go after another target.
3. I much prefer him to shoot at my barges than at my night scythes. The barges can only grab the Big Gun objectives. The night scythes could grab either Big Guns or the Relic. The scythes gives me much more tactical flexibility and is the unit that is more vital to me in the game.
y0disisray wrote: There isn't much that can be done unfrotunately. If you increase the times or allow players the time to reach a natural conclusion every game then people will slow play. This will make a tournament go on for like 10-12 hours which is far too much. Honestly when I played at the LVO all of my games reached at least turn 5 which is all I can ask for.
Yeah, all my games ended naturally as well (or at least to Turn 5). I can't really ask for more than that.
jy2 wrote: Call the judge over if you have to. Sorry to say, but serious tournament players need to manage their times and sometimes, their opponent's as well.
I think this is a big thing that so many tournament players fail to do in tournament 40k. In games like Magic, with a more organized competitive scene, players learn early that if there are any rules disputes or issues with your opponent, you immediately throw your hand in your air and yell "JUDGE!" Then you explain the situation / ask your question and get your issue dealt with. For whatever reason, in 40k, people are unwilling to do this nearly as much. It probably has to do with the "Beer and Pretzels" origins of the game, or with the long history of opponent judged "sportsmanship" (meaning if you do anything like calling your opponent out for cheating, you were going to get docked and lose any chance of winning yourself), but I think people need to embrace the fact that you aren't trying to attack your opponent when you call a judge, just ensure that everyone is on the same page and the game is going smoothly.
Yeah, between me and my opponent, when we have a rules dispute that I think will take us more than 1 minute to solve, I just call over the judge. I tell my opponent that I don't want to waste time going through the rulebooks and let's just follow the judges rulings. That's better than to waste 5 minutes trying to find the rules in the book or the GWFAQ's and finally, the LVOFAQ's.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/03/03 18:38:43
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-partial with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
This puts players to very unequal footing. An Eldar player does not care if he doesn't get to play the 5th or 6th turn, he can turbo his bikes to all objectives at will. That should not be the case, as this only causes the gap to widen between various armies. Some simply cannot or should not be used for competitive play, even if they were competitive under normal circumstances. That is the problem here. You can try to explain that it's only your skill to control the game with Necrons, when in essence it is your capability to grab the objectives at the last moment, something that your opponent might not be able to do.
But that is really the fault of GW, for making this an objectives game, where the various armies are already on an unequal footing.
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you).
It can be as you earlier wrote, that some players are naturally slower. It's easy to become That Guy by calling for the referee often enough. On top of that, proving that your opponent is slow playing on purpose is difficult.
Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
So the solution is to announce that no matter what this game will run its natural course, even if it took 5 hours
2014/03/03 15:48:49
Subject: Re:Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Life is not fair. Neither is 40K. Imbalance has always existed and will continue to do so, both in real life and in gaming. If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
I'm going to continue using basketball as an analogy. Players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant are so good that it isn't fair. Lebron is just so athletic, versatile and dominating. No one should be as tall and athletic as Durant and still be able to shoot that the way that he does (he's virtually unblockable!). Yes, teams like Miama and Oklahoma City have the advantage because they've got these types of players. These teams year after year are perennial contenders for the title. So what are teams playing against them going to do about it? What can they do about it? Bitching and moaning isn't going to help them stop these players (or the team).
Likewise, Eldar with Jetbikes (the "Lebrons" of 40K) and Necrons with Night Scythes (the "Durants" of 40K) are perennial contenders for the title in any tournament as well. Yes, they've got an unfair advantage with such mobile troops. No, GW is not going to do anything about them, at least not until an Edition or Codex change. So what are you going to do about it? You can bitch and moan, you can refuse to go to tournaments or to play against these types of armies....or you can adjust and try to find ways to deal with them in a tournament environment. What are some of the things you can do?
1. Take fast troops of your own....drop pods, transport flyers (vendettas and stormravens), deepstriking troops, lots of transports (speed freak orks, MSU-mech), etc. Yes, they're not as "super" as jetbike troops or robots in flyers, but it's not as if armies don't have options for mobile scoring.
2. Block off the objectives. Bubble-wrap and spread out to prevent these last-turn objective grabs/contesting. Also, you have to consider objective-placement as well when initially placing objectives.
3. Kill off his troops, especially the fast ones. That's what I normally do and so far, this tactic has worked out for me 90% of the time. When I go up against Eldar, screw the wraithknights, the beaststars and the seer councils. I'm going after the jetbike troops and troops in wave serpents first and foremost when given the opportunity. You need to build you list to be able to deal with these types of units. That means mobile offensive units of your own or barrage shooting or just plain shooting. For example, I see a lot of Tau players take fusions on many of their riptides. Screw the fusion and the land raider that you want to prepare for. What's going to cost you the game is the fact that you don't have SMS to deal with his hiding MSU troops or jetbikes.
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-partial with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
This puts players to very unequal footing. An Eldar player does not care if he doesn't get to play the 5th or 6th turn, he can turbo his bikes to all objectives at will. That should not be the case, as this only causes the gap to widen between various armies. Some simply cannot or should not be used for competitive play, even if they were competitive under normal circumstances. That is the problem here. You can try to explain that it's only your skill to control the game with Necrons, when in essence it is your capability to grab the objectives at the last moment, something that your opponent might not be able to do.
But that is really the fault of GW, for making this an objectives game, where the various armies are already on an unequal footing.
No, player skill put players on very unequal footing. Yes, the armies aren't completely fair. Certain armies have certain advantages that other armies just don't. That's the way it has always been in this game of ours. But the difference is, the skilled player recognizes the inequities of the matchup and should have his own plans/tactics on how to deal with it. It may still be a tough battle, but just the fact that he is prioritizing the opponent's fast troops over the slow ones means that he still has a fighting chance.
In an ideal world, all the armies are completely balanced. There would also be world peace and no such thing as crime in an ideal world. Sorry, never going to happen.
Spoiler:
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you).
It can be as you earlier wrote, that some players are naturally slower. It's easy to become That Guy by calling for the referee often enough. On top of that, proving that your opponent is slow playing on purpose is difficult.
Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
So the solution is to announce that no matter what this game will run its natural course, even if it took 5 hours
No, there is no solution, at least none that is practical. But in the Semi-finals or Finals of a large GT, I'd have judges go back and forth between the final 2 tables (and then the final table) to make sure this type of shenanigan (slow-playing) isn't going on. I'd also let those games run to their natural completions regardless of time and "police" any slow-playing that I saw....just like what DarthDiggler did when he ran one of the events at Adepticon.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/03 17:38:18
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/04 08:04:38
Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General
2014/03/04 10:39:39
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
SwistakCZC wrote: Ive great time while reading your reports, its nice that ive encountered one of your topics, Im gonna read them regularly.
Anyway you wrote that you feel like you didnt make any mistake, I think that you could prevent losing 2 of your barges, especially the one shot by stormtalon at its rear armour. Those are 2 points due to big guns and maybe those barges could shoot at some more bikers or take objective (not sure of ths because I dont remember well situation on a table). Its sad that game #5 was so unlucky for you! :(
It's not a mistake. There's no way I could save all my barges, and I wouldn't really wanted to. This is why:
1. His outflanking bikes have a 12"+18-24" strike range with their gravguns (don't remember the exact range of those gravguns). There's no way I could have avoided that. That's 9 shots with a good chance to immobilize my barges (he only needs 1 to do so). An immobilized barge is as good as a dead barge. I just can't protect my AB's if he had really wanted to take them out so why bother.
2. The only way to avoid his talons from shooting at my barge's rear was to point them practically due north (straight at my opponent's deployment zone). That means I wouldn't have been able to fire at his command squad, which were the only unit besides the TFC's that were on the table. So the trade-off is defense for offense....and there's no guarantee that my opponent would have even shot at them! Make it too hard to kill and he'd just go after another target.
3. I much prefer him to shoot at my barges than at my night scythes. The barges can only grab the Big Gun objectives. The night scythes could grab either Big Guns or the Relic. The scythes gives me much more tactical flexibility and is the unit that is more vital to me in the game.
Thats solid justification. In 1 youre totally right, my mistake. In 2 and 3, youre partially right, I think that sometimes its good to remit some shooting and take better position for next turns (i mean this barge shooted by talons), barge is worth 1 vp, can score and shoots better then scythe with greater flexibility (dont have to fly off board). But damn Ive forgotten that you played relic as well, its mean that youre more than partially right. Thanks for giving me better understanding of that game.
You played very well in whole tournament, Im looking for next batreps with necrons co-starring in
6000
2014/03/04 15:30:32
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Just throwing my hat in here (which is not a big one as I don't play warhammer as often as many of you) but that there is no real way to balance a game, there is always armies that are "better" but I kinda ignore that.
I play magic the gathering VERY competitively, and I know that some decks are "better" then others but I often don't play whatever is the "best" deck. I play decks I like, that use styles and tactics I know and are good with. Player skill will often be the turning point in most games and luck is also something to consider.
The same is true of 40k, some armies are "better" but with some bad dice rolls, or a few tactical errors and suddenly your losing a game that "should" have been your's. I play armies that I am good with first and worry about how to deal with match ups second.
Well sorry for the rant, just had been reading all the discussion and felt I had to pipe up.
Sorry about the hard loss there Jy2, one thing I don't like about the tournament settings sometimes is that one really bad defeat can really knock a guys record from high to low, hope you continue to kick ass in the future and thanks for the battle reports.
Check out my little ork story I am working on here!
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
Dude whats up with your signature?! So, do you wait for people to say that your smart and stuff and then just show it off? Lol its pretty funny the number of quotes I have seen you go through.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/04 16:03:32
2014/03/04 17:30:07
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Wow, I really didn't mean to side rail the thread with my initial comment.
It is just frustrating when players attribute player skill way higher then they need to. Having turn 2 in a timed event with units like scoring bikes, better yet jetbikes and better still NS troops is the single most decisive factor. Acting like this massive discrepancy doesn't exist or that it isn't as large as it is disingenuous.
Had you gone second in game 5, your decisions would have been on auto pilot for a turn 5 win as in your other games. It is silly how simple it is currently for certain builds to grab a win going second.
T1- smoke your pipe
T2- Grab first blood
T3-4 throw up chaff ie. do enough maneuvering to kill time
T5 Contest and win on FB or sweep with primary
If things are going quicker it is just as easy to play for T6 or 7
That said, I agree with your points with exception to the very bad sports comparisons. It is up to the players to recognize this and bring the right army, but this unfortunately is where the lions share of "skill" derives from currently. That entails bringing the right list (fast troops) and rolling for second turn.
It just strikes me as odd when players admit to horrid game imbalance while in the same breathe attribute wins to tabletop skill like they are some sort of savant. I guess gaming the system is a skill, just one that needs further distancing from battlefield tactic skills IMHO.
No where in here do I mean to discredit you personally. I want that to be clear. You are sharp and would do well in a balanced system, but the current state of the game in regard to tournament play is really not complex at all.
Meta talk aside, this looked like a phenomenal event, with great people, terrain and these batreps as usual are top notch. To me your best skill is story telling, which I value more then skills at a busted game ANY DAY. AND your photos are NEVER blurry... WTF dude hax
Red Corsair wrote: Meta talk aside, this looked like a phenomenal event, with great people, terrain and these batreps as usual are top notch. To me your best skill is story telling, which I value more then skills at a busted game ANY DAY. AND your photos are NEVER blurry... WTF dude hax
Thanks! Storytelling is fun and lets me get my creative juices out. And I have a very good camera....the Panasonic Lumix LX-5. Great quality for a sub-$500 camera.
I'll get to more comments later.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/04 17:40:04
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
How do you feel about loaded dice?
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. ....
Yes, and in turn-based games, those limits are the number of turns.
jy2 wrote:
The point is, stalling comes part-&-parcel with competitive events.
There's a difference between stalling within the framework that the game is designed for, and stalling outside that framework. Since you're into the sports analogies, here are a few...
In soccer, there's a running clock. And, when the goalkeeper is holding the ball, the other team is not allowed to attempt to kick it out of his hands. It stands to reason, then, that the winning soccer strategy is to score one goal, and let your goalkeeper hold the ball for the rest of the contest...
Of course, that's not what happens. Because the goalkeeper is expected to return the ball to the field of play in a timely manner. What is a timely manner?? How long can he give his team-mates to get into position to receive his kick? Well, that's up to the referee, and I've seen plenty of yellow-cards called in games for time-wasting.
In American football, controlling the ball to run the clock out is a viable strategy, but it's got its own limits built in. You can only run out the clock while you possess the ball, you can only run out 40 seconds at a time, at which point you have to run a play, and your opponent has a means to counter-act the strategy when they get possession of the ball. The team with the lead can't just waste time endlessly, they still have to run plays and gain first-downs, or the opponent gets the ball back.
Now compare that with turn-based games. Your opponent wants to waste time - you have no recourse.
... Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. ...
And what good does that do? I'm pretty sure everyone playing at this level has 100 excuses for why they're not "slow-playing" that would sound legit unless a judge were to monitor the game. What's worse, the real offenders know their plan early on, and waste time in the early turns, before you're watching for it. All of a sudden, you find yourself on turn 3 with 30-45 minutes left, and then the amount of time they spend on their moves seems reasonable. If your opponent goes into a game knowing that he's playing for a four-turn game and wastes 45 minutes between turn 1 and 2, they have a huge advantage over someone who expects to play a five+ turn game. It's just as much cheating to do this as it is to use loaded dice.
But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
Having played 200 model armies at high-level tournaments, I'm generally of the opinion that if a game doesn't finish on time, it's because one (or both) of the players didn't want it to. We're not talking neighborhood tournaments where the guy who plays once every few months stops in and has to keep re-learning the rules, we're talking about upper tables at highly competitive events.
Unfortunately the message was somehow misunderstood. We all know and understand that armies are not and will not ever be equal. What I meant was that in a timed event the advantage is even more on the more mobile side. I do not think there is a real solution to that as more than one game needs to be played during an event.
There, I got the last words, now let's move on to the Doubles tournament
2014/03/05 04:39:43
Subject: Re:Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Originally, I wasn't planning on attending the LVO Doubles Tournament. I had planned to make it to Day #3 and the Top 8 of the Championships. However, after losing to Eric's White Scars in Game #5, I suddenly found myself free on Sunday. Thus I decided to enter into the Doubles tournament. There were still spaces left so I started looking for partners. I mainly wanted to team up with Necrons to keep our army "pure". I knew Eric played another Necron player earlier and decided to ask him if he was interested in teaming up with me. Fortunately for me, Chuck (aka TehCheator) was also interested in playing in the team tournament. It was almost a match made in heaven as we were both running Wraithwing Necrons so the match was perfect. Our armies coalesced together very well. It was more like 1 army rather than 2 separate armies.
In any case, both persons get 1000-pts and the 2 armies have to share 1 Force Organization Chart.
Jy2's Necrons
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
Now these won't be full reports. Rather, they will be summaries of our battles.
Game #1 vs Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines
Spoiler:
Our first game was against Pascal from Frontline Gaming and Rich from Green Stuff Industries. Pascal is one of the painters for Frontline Gaming. Rich has his own company and makes some pretty cool stuff for 40K. You can find some of his products as well as his 40K blog here:
Nurgle Lord on Bike with PF and LC, BGrenades, GOM, and Sigil
1x7 Plague Marine squad with 2x Melta
1x7 Plague Marine squad with 2x Plasma
2 Heldrakes
Aegis and Relay
I looked at their lists and I immediately started to feel a little bad. They're playing more of a fluff-based army whereas our army was pretty hardcore. To make things worse, we won the roll to go 2nd. Mission was objectives and I believe Kill Points.
Turn 2 both of Rich's heldrakes came in and the only targets they had were either our wraiths or annihilation barges. Our flyers then came in the next turn and shot almost both of them down (just 1 left with 1 HP remaining).
Turn 3 Pascal gave me a little scare. His plague bearers had the banner that gave them Poisoned 2+. With Prescience from Fateweaver, the plagues were re-rolling to hit and to wound and he charged my wraiths. He almost wiped out my 1 unit of wraiths + Lord. But then the next turn, I multi-assaulted all 3 plaguebearer units and used combat res to force Daemonic Instability tests on all 3 units. Eventually, I won the battle of attrition and wiped out all 50 of his plaguebearers by the time the game ended, though I lost my Lord and most of my wraiths in the process.
Chuck on the other hand, assaulted Rich's HQ + plagues and actually lost his war of attrition. However, our shooting was just too great and almost wiped out the rest of their army. We eventually killed Fatey, though it would take until Turn 5 to do so.
In the end, we nabbed Primary, Secondary and all the bonus points for a max score of 11-pts (max here was 11 instead of the 10 that was max in the Championships).
I want to thank our opponents for taking the beating quite well despite clearly being over-matched. They never gave up. Bravo.
I knew this was going to be a tough fight. Our opponents were bringing Tau (yech!) and Necrons (yeah!...oh wait, we're playing against them....yech!). Both of us were coming in with max Battle points so far. But more importantly, our opponents were Daniel Hesselberg, the Team Captain of Sweden's ETC team, and Bob. Daniel finished the main tournament ranked #22 overall. I'm not sure how Bob ended up doing (heck...I'm not even sure if I got Bob's name correct!). In any case, I knew this match was going to be much, much different from our first game. However, I knew that this game was going to be interesting when Daniel came in with his own, personal upchuck bin. Seems like he was in a worse condition than I was on my Day #2!
This is an approximation of their lists.
Tau:
Tau "Toolbox" Commander - lots of the "necessary" upgrades
Riptide - Ion, Early Warning Override
2x units of kroots
2x3 Broadsides - several missile drones
Necrons:
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackles
6x Wraiths - some whip coils
5x Immortals - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
Annihilation Barge
The Game:
Tau is an army that traditionally gives my Necrons lots of problems. As a matter of fact, to my crons, they are an even tougher matchup than Eldar IMO. Fortunately for us, we were going 2nd.
Mission was objectives and Victory Points, though VP's only count for 1 partner. We chose their Necrons for our VP count and they chose Chuck's Necrons for their VP count. We actually make a mistake here by choosing Chuck's Destroyer Lord to be our Warlord. So now, our opponents have 2x the reason to kill him - he's both the Warlord as well as a VP in the VP mission. But in the end, it turned out to be a great choice.
This game, we played super-conservatively....which was rather quite uncharacteristic of me. Such is my respect for Tau firepower. We also ended up reserving Chuck's wraithstar unit, which turned out to be another great move on our part.
Tau deployment. All their troops are in reserves.
Overall of our deployment.
Necrons advance cautiously. The Toolbox "Buffmander" joins the broadsides and with Tank Hunters and Ignore Cover, they take out one of our annihilation barges for First Blood.
We played a game of cat-&-mouse with our wraithstars, each one staying about 20-24" away from each other. As a matter of fact, I didn't really advance my wraiths until Turn 2 when Chuck's wraiths came in.
Turn 2 their kroots and 2 night scythes come in. They do a couple of wounds to my wraiths but one of the teslas actually arcs back onto the scythes and takes off 1 HP from it.
The Tau take out another AB.
Vengeance is ours! We take out both of their night scythes. Chuck's wraiths comes in and I begin to advance my wraiths (though still weary of our opponents' wraiths). My wraiths also assault and blow up their AB.
Turn 3 the last night scythe comes in.
They take out the last AB, kill a bunch of wraiths from Chuck's unit and I believe take down 1 night scythe as well.
We then kill off 1 unit of kroots with assault by Chuck's wraiths and shoot down a couple of broadsides with our night scythes.
My wraiths attempt to multi-charge against their 2 Necron troops but I roll 1,1 to fail my charges!!!
Turn 4 his wraithstar assaults into my wraithstar, but not until after shooting at them first. They had the numbers advantage, however, my D-lord passes his MSS test while our opponent's D-lord failed his. We stay locked in combat.
I believe this turn, they shoot down Chuck's D-lord - our Warlord - but fortunately for us, he gets back up.
Our Turn 4, Chuck's wraithstar (with perhaps the D-lord and only 1 wraith left) assaults into the broadsides with Buffmander. We use terrain to minimize Overwatch and we either killed them in assault, or they fall back and off the table. That was a huge turn for us!
Both of our D-lords kill each other off in combat and neither gets back up. Wraiths would remain locked in combat for the rest of the game. My other unit of wraiths would take care of his troops and then later join the wraith assault.
NecTau Turn 5 - they shoot down our Warlord....but again he gets back up!!! Riptide then assaults him (with just 1W remaining) but gets mindshackled, loses combat and then breaks! WTF?!? So far, Chuck's Warlord + wraithstar was responsible for taking out 1 unit of broadsides, the Tau Commander and now for breaking the riptide.
Our Turn 5, we go after the objectives and their troops. Our Warlord assaults another unit of broadsides and break them as well!!! Damn....that guy was on FIRE !!!
The broadsides and riptide would rally, but by then it would be too little too late. We already had the game in the bag. We had both the Primary and the Secondary. We also got all the bonus points except First Blood. Team We'll Be Back takes it 10-1.
We probably wouldn't have won this game if not for Chuck's Warlord. That guy was clearly the MVP of the game. He came back twice (maybe even 3 times?) and basically single-handedly dismantled the Tau army. Despite the score, this was a tough, tough battle. It must have also been a frustrating game for our opponent's, but that's just how it is against Necrons sometimes. Necrons can be unbeatable when they are making their Everliving/Reanimation rolls, and I always feel bad for any of my opponents who experiences it firsthand.
Our opponent for this round was Pascal from New Zealand and Adrien. Adrien ran FMC Daemons in the Championships. Pascal was running Blood Angels and came all the way from New Zealand just to participate in this tournament. He was actually in one of Frontline Gaming's videoreps:
Sorry, don't quite remember his list exactly, but it was something like this:
Librarian Furioso Dread
Furioso Dread
Lucious Drop Pod
Lucious Drop Pod
5x Death Company - Drop Pod
Stormraven
Stormraven
So between the 2 of them, they only had 1 scoring unit. That's ONE frickin scoring unit only!!! I almost did a double-take when I saw their army. I thought to myself, wow, we are going to pulverize them!
But what we didn't know at the time was this:
1. Adrien was the Best Daemons player and ended the tournament ranked #14 overall.
2. Pascal was the Best Blood Angels player and was the #35 ranked player overall. His BA barely lost to Justin Cook's Ovesa-star and smashed a Mechdar player as well as another Tau player.
3. Adrien's Daemons would get some awesome powers, including Misfortune, Iron Arm and Terrify! Holy Ship!
4. Going into round #3, they were undefeated as well. They also got max points in their 1st game.
But sometimes, ignorance is bliss. So we go into the game thinking that we would be heavy favorites....
The Game:
The deployment was somewhat funky. We each get 1 table quarter and so can deploy all the way to the 24" line, which is exactly what we did. Adrien, on the other hand, deploys his FMC's all the way back in his corner and Pascal deploys nothing.
We deploy our wraiths and leave our annihilation barges in reserves. I make sure to stay out of range of Adrien's maledictions.
BTW, we went 2nd. Mission objectives were VP's and Table Quarters.
Fatey gets the Grimoire. FMC's advance. Both dreadnoughts come in. Here's an interesting tidbit. Apparently, the dreads can disembark on top of the Lucious pods! Pascal even verified it with FW themselves. Now why would he want to do that? So that we couldn't surround his drop pods, assault and wreck them and then kill off the dreads inside because they couldn't disembark.
Shooting kills 1 wraith, puts 1W on another and takes off 2W from my D-lord.
Necron Turn 1 - we have nothing that can shoot and so we just assault and kill both drop pods. First Blood to the crons.
Here comes the pain. My wraithstar unit gets Terrified. My other unit of wraiths gets Misfortuned. Fatey gets the Grimoire and stays flying. The other 2 FMC's prepare for assault.
Our opponents make 2 almost fatal errors this turn. First of all, they shoot down enough Misfortuned wraiths to take them out of assault of Adrien's Daemon Prince (DP).
Secondly, they charge both the dread and the LoC into my wraithstar. Had he only charged in with the LoC, he could have won combat and potentially swept my wraithstar. But by charging in with the Furioso as well, it gave my D-lord and his warscythe something to kill. Keep in mind that each penetrating hit on a vehicle counts as 2 kills when determining combat res. Thus, I kill his dread and then end up winning combat and putting another couple of wounds on their LoC.
Eventually, I would win the combat against the LoC thanks to Mindshackle Scarabs.
Next turn when our reserves come in, we bring his Grimoire DP down to 1W left with shooting and then finish him off in assault with Chuck's wraithstar.
Warpstorm would give Chaos another free unit of troops (Wow! 2 scoring units now!!!), but it would not help.
They kill 2 night scythes, 1 unit of wraiths, my D-lord and 1 annihilation barge but I believe that was all they were able to do.
We proceed to kill the LoC in combat, Fateweaver by Turn 4, the pink horrors, the other furioso and both stormravens.
We take Table Quarters 2-0 (they had the plaguebearers and death company contesting 2 quarters). We also take VP's as well as all the bonus points. Team We'll Be Back wins it with max points. Our opponents never gave up, but they really couldn't afford to make any mistakes in this matchup. Unfortunately, they did and as a result, we made them pay.
So at the end of the tournament, there were 2 undefeated Teams. We ended the tournament with 32 Battle Points (out of 33). The other team ended up with 27-pts. However, they had better paint scores than us as well as a very nice display base. Thus, they ended up taking Best Team Overall.
As for us, we ended up with this:
Told you I wasn't leaving the LVO empty-handed.
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2014/03/06 03:29:26
Yeah, that DLord came back 3 times against them, he had a total of 6 wounds (3 starting + 3 extras from RP). Him and a wraith or two assaulted and sweeping advanced a unit of broadsides with their warlord commander in it, then assaulted and broke the other squad of broadsides (they would eventually rally but way out of position behind LoS blocking ruins), and then took the charge from the Riptide and broke him off the board. So he pretty much single-handedly took care of the entire Tau half of their army.
Also, I'm pretty sure at least 2 of the times he got back up were on 4's, so the Res Orb earned it's points back and more this game.
2014/03/05 14:14:14
Subject: Re:Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Game #5 on p.7)
Life is not fair. Neither is 40K. Imbalance has always existed and will continue to do so, both in real life and in gaming. If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
I'm going to continue using basketball as an analogy. Players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant are so good that it isn't fair. Lebron is just so athletic, versatile and dominating. No one should be as tall and athletic as Durant and still be able to shoot that the way that he does (he's virtually unblockable!). Yes, teams like Miama and Oklahoma City have the advantage because they've got these types of players. These teams year after year are perennial contenders for the title. So what are teams playing against them going to do about it? What can they do about it? Bitching and moaning isn't going to help them stop these players (or the team).
Likewise, Eldar with Jetbikes (the "Lebrons" of 40K) and Necrons with Night Scythes (the "Durants" of 40K) are perennial contenders for the title in any tournament as well. Yes, they've got an unfair advantage with such mobile troops. No, GW is not going to do anything about them, at least not until an Edition or Codex change. So what are you going to do about it? You can bitch and moan, you can refuse to go to tournaments or to play against these types of armies....or you can adjust and try to find ways to deal with them in a tournament environment. What are some of the things you can do?
1. Take fast troops of your own....drop pods, transport flyers (vendettas and stormravens), deepstriking troops, lots of transports (speed freak orks, MSU-mech), etc. Yes, they're not as "super" as jetbike troops or robots in flyers, but it's not as if armies don't have options for mobile scoring.
2. Block off the objectives. Bubble-wrap and spread out to prevent these last-turn objective grabs/contesting. Also, you have to consider objective-placement as well when initially placing objectives.
3. Kill off his troops, especially the fast ones. That's what I normally do and so far, this tactic has worked out for me 90% of the time. When I go up against Eldar, screw the wraithknights, the beaststars and the seer councils. I'm going after the jetbike troops and troops in wave serpents first and foremost when given the opportunity. You need to build you list to be able to deal with these types of units. That means mobile offensive units of your own or barrage shooting or just plain shooting. For example, I see a lot of Tau players take fusions on many of their riptides. Screw the fusion and the land raider that you want to prepare for. What's going to cost you the game is the fact that you don't have SMS to deal with his hiding MSU troops or jetbikes.
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-partial with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
This puts players to very unequal footing. An Eldar player does not care if he doesn't get to play the 5th or 6th turn, he can turbo his bikes to all objectives at will. That should not be the case, as this only causes the gap to widen between various armies. Some simply cannot or should not be used for competitive play, even if they were competitive under normal circumstances. That is the problem here. You can try to explain that it's only your skill to control the game with Necrons, when in essence it is your capability to grab the objectives at the last moment, something that your opponent might not be able to do.
But that is really the fault of GW, for making this an objectives game, where the various armies are already on an unequal footing.
No, player skill put players on very unequal footing. Yes, the armies aren't completely fair. Certain armies have certain advantages that other armies just don't. That's the way it has always been in this game of ours. But the difference is, the skilled player recognizes the inequities of the matchup and should have his own plans/tactics on how to deal with it. It may still be a tough battle, but just the fact that he is prioritizing the opponent's fast troops over the slow ones means that he still has a fighting chance.
In an ideal world, all the armies are completely balanced. There would also be world peace and no such thing as crime in an ideal world. Sorry, never going to happen.
Spoiler:
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you).
It can be as you earlier wrote, that some players are naturally slower. It's easy to become That Guy by calling for the referee often enough. On top of that, proving that your opponent is slow playing on purpose is difficult.
Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
So the solution is to announce that no matter what this game will run its natural course, even if it took 5 hours
No, there is no solution, at least none that is practical. But in the Semi-finals or Finals of a large GT, I'd have judges go back and forth between the final 2 tables (and then the final table) to make sure this type of shenanigan (slow-playing) isn't going on. I'd also let those games run to their natural completions regardless of time and "police" any slow-playing that I saw....just like what DarthDiggler did when he ran one of the events at Adepticon.
The Midwest massacre being held locally on sept 19-21 of this year is actually extending its rounds to 2:45 min and there will be no random game length. Matches will be played to 6 turns. Just a heads up of one ot put on your calendar. I am actually the one writing up the mission packet so it should be legit missions. I wont be playing as I will be overseas by then but you might see if you in a couple from your area wanna make the trip.
As for the slow playing bit. In most cases it is easy to tell if your opponent is slow playing. Just let the player know he needs to pick up the pace a little if possible. If that doesn't work have a judge swing by the table to warn them. If that doesn't work then a judge can possibly watch a turn and witness it to take further action.
I had someone slow playing me in one tournament. I needed two turns to do something so they milked me down to like 18 minutes in the round and i was going second. My turn lasted i think 45 seconds. Needless to say I manage to pull off that win. You just have to have a plan if you are put in that type of situation. What needs to be done? Knock that stuff out and then end your turn if your close.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
SwistakCZC wrote: Chuck's wraiths was in normal reserves yes? They didnt deep strike am I correct?
Correct. The deployment was pretty funky. It was Hammer & Anvil. However, reserves came in from the long table edges instead of the short table edges that was customary for H-&-A deployment.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, basically....except that the opponent knows which side you will be coming in from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doubles Team Tournament completed.
One scoring unit in any tournament is ouch. Did they explain why they did it?
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
Too bad about the white scars but at least you have learned to respect the scars now.
Thanks for sharing all these batreps like this. You getting all these written up and all the pictures taken while concentrating on the tournament is very impressive.
2014/03/06 16:12:02
Subject: Re:Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Doubles on p.9)
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
Dude whats up with your signature?! So, do you wait for people to say that your smart and stuff and then just show it off? Lol its pretty funny the number of quotes I have seen you go through.
Here's something he can quote:
ImotekhTheStormlord is a walking, talking, breathing, heaving, quoting, obscure-trivia-toting member from the species known as Arcanus Trivialus Obfuscatus.
Thats solid justification. In 1 youre totally right, my mistake. In 2 and 3, youre partially right, I think that sometimes its good to remit some shooting and take better position for next turns (i mean this barge shooted by talons), barge is worth 1 vp, can score and shoots better then scythe with greater flexibility (dont have to fly off board). But damn Ive forgotten that you played relic as well, its mean that youre more than partially right. Thanks for giving me better understanding of that game.
You played very well in whole tournament, Im looking for next batreps with necrons co-starring in
Thanks, but my Necrons are going to take a break for now....
....at least until the next major tournament, which may be coming sooner than you'd think.
Just throwing my hat in here (which is not a big one as I don't play warhammer as often as many of you) but that there is no real way to balance a game, there is always armies that are "better" but I kinda ignore that.
I play magic the gathering VERY competitively, and I know that some decks are "better" then others but I often don't play whatever is the "best" deck. I play decks I like, that use styles and tactics I know and are good with. Player skill will often be the turning point in most games and luck is also something to consider.
The same is true of 40k, some armies are "better" but with some bad dice rolls, or a few tactical errors and suddenly your losing a game that "should" have been your's. I play armies that I am good with first and worry about how to deal with match ups second.
Well sorry for the rant, just had been reading all the discussion and felt I had to pipe up.
Sorry about the hard loss there Jy2, one thing I don't like about the tournament settings sometimes is that one really bad defeat can really knock a guys record from high to low, hope you continue to kick ass in the future and thanks for the battle reports.
No worries, and thanks for chiming in.
I always advocate playing what you like or what think would be funnest. I would never tell anyone that he/she should play an army because they are currently the strongest (unless that is also what that person thinks is the funnest). 40K isn't just about winning. It's about immersing yourself into a fantasy world and being the race you think is coolest. That is also why I don't endorse anything that will stymie variety, which is what I feel something like chess clocks and Destroyer weaponry (ranged) will do. You can win with any army. The only question is, how much do you like to challenge yourself?
Wow, I really didn't mean to side rail the thread with my initial comment.
It is just frustrating when players attribute player skill way higher then they need to. Having turn 2 in a timed event with units like scoring bikes, better yet jetbikes and better still NS troops is the single most decisive factor. Acting like this massive discrepancy doesn't exist or that it isn't as large as it is disingenuous.
Had you gone second in game 5, your decisions would have been on auto pilot for a turn 5 win as in your other games. It is silly how simple it is currently for certain builds to grab a win going second.
T1- smoke your pipe
T2- Grab first blood
T3-4 throw up chaff ie. do enough maneuvering to kill time
T5 Contest and win on FB or sweep with primary
If things are going quicker it is just as easy to play for T6 or 7
That said, I agree with your points with exception to the very bad sports comparisons. It is up to the players to recognize this and bring the right army, but this unfortunately is where the lions share of "skill" derives from currently. That entails bringing the right list (fast troops) and rolling for second turn.
It just strikes me as odd when players admit to horrid game imbalance while in the same breathe attribute wins to tabletop skill like they are some sort of savant. I guess gaming the system is a skill, just one that needs further distancing from battlefield tactic skills IMHO.
No where in here do I mean to discredit you personally. I want that to be clear. You are sharp and would do well in a balanced system, but the current state of the game in regard to tournament play is really not complex at all.
Meta talk aside, this looked like a phenomenal event, with great people, terrain and these batreps as usual are top notch. To me your best skill is story telling, which I value more then skills at a busted game ANY DAY. AND your photos are NEVER blurry... WTF dude hax
Hey! What's wrong with my sports comparison?
Good players recognize what it takes to win games. Their strategy doesn't just begin during gameplay. It actually begins way before that....in the list-building phase. They make sure to build their lists with everything they think it would take to combat the current meta. And yes, that includes bringing mobile scoring. Yes, bringing necron troops in night scythes, windrider jetbikes, drop-podding/deepstriking troops, ways to manipulate reserves, etc. - good players will leverage every advantage they can get and they do it even before they play any games at all. The imbalance comes from the inability for some to recognize what it takes to win games. Thus, they go into the games without necessarily bringing the right tools. In short, when building a TAC list, make sure you take some mobile scoring as well.
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
How do you feel about loaded dice?
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. ....
Yes, and in turn-based games, those limits are the number of turns.
jy2 wrote:
The point is, stalling comes part-&-parcel with competitive events.
There's a difference between stalling within the framework that the game is designed for, and stalling outside that framework. Since you're into the sports analogies, here are a few...
In soccer, there's a running clock. And, when the goalkeeper is holding the ball, the other team is not allowed to attempt to kick it out of his hands. It stands to reason, then, that the winning soccer strategy is to score one goal, and let your goalkeeper hold the ball for the rest of the contest...
Of course, that's not what happens. Because the goalkeeper is expected to return the ball to the field of play in a timely manner. What is a timely manner?? How long can he give his team-mates to get into position to receive his kick? Well, that's up to the referee, and I've seen plenty of yellow-cards called in games for time-wasting.
In American football, controlling the ball to run the clock out is a viable strategy, but it's got its own limits built in. You can only run out the clock while you possess the ball, you can only run out 40 seconds at a time, at which point you have to run a play, and your opponent has a means to counter-act the strategy when they get possession of the ball. The team with the lead can't just waste time endlessly, they still have to run plays and gain first-downs, or the opponent gets the ball back.
Now compare that with turn-based games. Your opponent wants to waste time - you have no recourse.
... Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. ...
And what good does that do? I'm pretty sure everyone playing at this level has 100 excuses for why they're not "slow-playing" that would sound legit unless a judge were to monitor the game. What's worse, the real offenders know their plan early on, and waste time in the early turns, before you're watching for it. All of a sudden, you find yourself on turn 3 with 30-45 minutes left, and then the amount of time they spend on their moves seems reasonable. If your opponent goes into a game knowing that he's playing for a four-turn game and wastes 45 minutes between turn 1 and 2, they have a huge advantage over someone who expects to play a five+ turn game. It's just as much cheating to do this as it is to use loaded dice.
But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
Having played 200 model armies at high-level tournaments, I'm generally of the opinion that if a game doesn't finish on time, it's because one (or both) of the players didn't want it to. We're not talking neighborhood tournaments where the guy who plays once every few months stops in and has to keep re-learning the rules, we're talking about upper tables at highly competitive events.
Some good points.
Ok....moving on.
Naw wrote: Unfortunately the message was somehow misunderstood. We all know and understand that armies are not and will not ever be equal. What I meant was that in a timed event the advantage is even more on the more mobile side. I do not think there is a real solution to that as more than one game needs to be played during an event.
There, I got the last words, now let's move on to the Doubles tournament
Agreed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shandara wrote: That D-lord as your Warlord, not so much a great choice as great dice!
You know what they say about Necrons.
The greatest Necron players are the ones that can roll the most 's.
TehCheator wrote: Yeah, that DLord came back 3 times against them, he had a total of 6 wounds (3 starting + 3 extras from RP). Him and a wraith or two assaulted and sweeping advanced a unit of broadsides with their warlord commander in it, then assaulted and broke the other squad of broadsides (they would eventually rally but way out of position behind LoS blocking ruins), and then took the charge from the Riptide and broke him off the board. So he pretty much single-handedly took care of the entire Tau half of their army.
Also, I'm pretty sure at least 2 of the times he got back up were on 4's, so the Res Orb earned it's points back and more this game.
Res Orbs are solid gold. Ever since running them on my D-lords, it's now hard for me to drop them. They really are a game-changing piece of wargear.
The Midwest massacre being held locally on sept 19-21 of this year is actually extending its rounds to 2:45 min and there will be no random game length. Matches will be played to 6 turns. Just a heads up of one ot put on your calendar. I am actually the one writing up the mission packet so it should be legit missions. I wont be playing as I will be overseas by then but you might see if you in a couple from your area wanna make the trip.
As for the slow playing bit. In most cases it is easy to tell if your opponent is slow playing. Just let the player know he needs to pick up the pace a little if possible. If that doesn't work have a judge swing by the table to warn them. If that doesn't work then a judge can possibly watch a turn and witness it to take further action.
I had someone slow playing me in one tournament. I needed two turns to do something so they milked me down to like 18 minutes in the round and i was going second. My turn lasted i think 45 seconds. Needless to say I manage to pull off that win. You just have to have a plan if you are put in that type of situation. What needs to be done? Knock that stuff out and then end your turn if your close.
One of these days, I'd like to attend more GT's like the Midwest. But for now, I'm probably limited to traveling 1-2 times a year for major tournaments.
Yeah, it's really up to the 2 player involved to do something about it if they feel that they are being slow-played. Because if they don't, no one else will in most cases.
Also, sometimes when I am playing against someone who is playing "slowly", I even offer to help them to speed up the pace of the game. And I even tell them why I would like to help them - to help move the game along so that we can actually finish it. Such help includes helping them move models if it is a lot, helping them pick up dice if they are rolling a lot of dice and helping them to count/keep track of the number of attacks/wounds for large units. Most people who aren't purposefully slow-playing will gladly accept, but if they refuse, then you really need to pay attention to these players and the time.
ansacs wrote: Good job pulling an award out like that.
Too bad about the white scars but at least you have learned to respect the scars now.
Thanks for sharing all these batreps like this. You getting all these written up and all the pictures taken while concentrating on the tournament is very impressive.
My pleasure!
White Scars are good, but they aren't perfect. They do have some bad matchups. I still think my crons are a potential bad matchup for them, but I will save my vengeance for a future date. Muhahahaha.....
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/03/06 16:39:26
Good players recognize what it takes to win games. Their strategy doesn't just begin during gameplay. It actually begins way before that....in the list-building phase. They make sure to build their lists with everything they think it would take to combat the current meta. And yes, that includes bringing mobile scoring. Yes, bringing necron troops in night scythes, windrider jetbikes, drop-podding/deepstriking troops, ways to manipulate reserves, etc. - good players will leverage every advantage they can get and they do it even before they play any games at all. The imbalance comes from the inability for some to recognize what it takes to win games. Thus, they go into the games without necessarily bringing the right tools. In short, when building a TAC list, make sure you take some mobile scoring as well.
The difference is that while LeBron is much better than most players and it can be easily be argued that his contract is undervalued which undermines the salary cap, the Heat can't spam LeBron to further widen the gap in talent between the teams.
2014/03/06 16:53:52
Subject: Jy2 Brings Necrons to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT - (Army Pics/Game Links on p.1, Doubles on p.9)
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
to do so). An immobilized barge is as good as a dead barge. I just can't protect my 
I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
hax
Cratfworld Alaitoc (
Grand (little) Army of Chaos, now painting! (
Needless to say I manage to pull off that win. You just have to have a plan if you are put in that type of situation. What needs to be done? Knock that stuff out and then end your turn if your close.
