Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The 'Preparing Reserves' rules (rulebook, pg 94) say: ". . .the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together."

The Imperial Guard 'Infantry Platoon' unit entry (IG codex, pg 96) says: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."




QUESTION: If an Imperial Guard player has 9 Valkyries (3 squadrons each 3-strong) in Reserves, and he declares that each Squadron will be transporting ONE unit from a single Infantry Platoon (and the rest of the Valkyries will also be transporting units like Storm Troopers, Veterans and/or units from another Infantry Platoon), how exactly do you play that this situation is handled when it comes to resolving the Reserve rolls?

EXAMPLE:
IG player Bill has 9 Valkyries in his army, split into three squadrons (Squadrons 'X', 'Y' and 'Z') and two Platoons (Platoon 'A' and 'B') that are both comprised of four units: 1 Command Squad and 3 Infantry Squads. He also has a smattering of other infantry units (like Veterans, Storm Troopers, etc) in his army.

During deployment Bill declares that all of the Valkyrie squadrons will be starting the game in Reserves carrying the following units:

Valkyrie Squadron 'X': One unit from Platoon 'A', one unit from Platoon 'B' and one Veteran squad.
Valkyrie Squadron 'Y': Another unit from Platoon 'A', the Company Command Squad and a Psyker Battle Squad.
Valkyrie Squadron 'Z': Yet another unit from Platoon 'A', and two Veteran squads.

Note that the rest of the units from Platoon 'A' and 'B' are also placed in Reserves and will move normally onto the table when they arrive.

OPTION A. Since Platoons are rolled for together, as are transport vehicles along with their passengers, and since all the units involved are inter-mingled together, I play that one single Reserves roll is made for all of it and if successful, all the units involved arrive at the same time.

So in the example above, one Reserves roll would be made for all of the units listed above. This roll is successful, which means every single unit arrives on the table that turn.



OPTION B. I play that a separate Reserves roll is made for each Valkyrie Squadron (including the units being transported on them) and this means that the units embarked on the Valkyries can end up arriving on a different turn form the rest of the units in their Platoon that are arriving onto the table normally.

So in the example above, Three separate Reserves rolls would be made for each Valkyrie Squadron along with two separate Reserve rolls for the remaining elements of Platoon 'A' and 'B' that are arriving normally. Only the roll for Squadron 'Z' ends up successful, so only those 3 Valkyries along with their passengers arrive that turn. Note that this does mean that the one unit from Platoon 'Z' that is on the 'Z' Squadron Valkyries is arriving separately from the rest of its Platoon.



OPTION C. I play that a separate Reserves roll is made for each Valkyrie Squadron as well as rolls for each Platoon that also has elements which are arriving normally. A Valkyrie Squadron will ONLY be able to arrive if (and only if) all elements successfully make their Reserve rolls.

So in the example above, Three separate Reserves rolls would be made for each Valkyrie Squadron along with two separate Reserve rolls for the remaining elements of Platoon 'A' and 'B' that are arriving normally. Only the Reserve rolls for Squadron 'X', 'Z' and the foot elements of Platoon 'A' are successful. This means Squadron 'Z' is allowed to arrive (because the Squadron roll AND the roll for Platoon 'A' were both successful) but Squadron 'X' is NOT allowed to arrive (because the foot elements of Platoon 'B' failed their roll).



OPTION D. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I answered option B because IMO the rule of specific > general has to be used in a case like this.

While the platoon rules tell you that it has to arrive as a single unit from reserves, the Valk squadron rules specify what to do when an embarked unit arrives from reserves. It is a more specific sub-set of rules therefore IMO Squadron rules > Platoon rules in this instance.

PhantomViper wrote:I answered option B because IMO the rule of specific > general has to be used in a case like this.

While the platoon rules tell you that it has to arrive as a single unit from reserves, the Valk squadron rules specify what to do when an embarked unit arrives from reserves. It is a more specific sub-set of rules therefore IMO Squadron rules > Platoon rules in this instance.

How are General Rulebook Squadron rules more specific that a Special Rule for a Unit in a Codex? IMO, the only way to "Break No Rule" is that it all boils down to 1 Roll. All or Nothing.

Option B. The only way it would not be crystal clear is if it did not specify in the guard codex that elements arrive at the same time from Reserves. It's really just a reiteration of the generic rule for FOC, so it's not a case of Codex trumps BRB.

I chose option D and would tell the person to quit intentionally trying to break the game. if they're trying to do this BEFORE the game starts, i'd be worried about the shenanigans they'd pull (note not cheating, but just trying to twist a weak link in the rules until it breaks) DURING the game. i'd ask them to chose one squadron of valks and have them combine that reserve roll with the platoon. it's not RAW but that's not the point of this thread.

p.s. is it more correct to write YMTC or the more orky YMDC?

Gwar! wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:I answered option B because IMO the rule of specific > general has to be used in a case like this.

While the platoon rules tell you that it has to arrive as a single unit from reserves, the Valk squadron rules specify what to do when an embarked unit arrives from reserves. It is a more specific sub-set of rules therefore IMO Squadron rules > Platoon rules in this instance.

How are General Rulebook Squadron rules more specific that a Special Rule for a Unit in a Codex? IMO, the only way to "Break No Rule" is that it all boils down to 1 Roll. All or Nothing.

I also chose option B.

G

Gwar! wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:I answered option B because IMO the rule of specific > general has to be used in a case like this.

While the platoon rules tell you that it has to arrive as a single unit from reserves, the Valk squadron rules specify what to do when an embarked unit arrives from reserves. It is a more specific sub-set of rules therefore IMO Squadron rules > Platoon rules in this instance.

How are General Rulebook Squadron rules more specific that a Special Rule for a Unit in a Codex? IMO, the only way to "Break No Rule" is that it all boils down to 1 Roll. All or Nothing.

I know that we aren't supposed to discuss this here but my reason is basically this:

Ludovic wrote:The only way it would not be crystal clear is if it did not specify in the guard codex that elements arrive at the same time from Reserves. It's really just a reiteration of the generic rule for FOC, so it's not a case of Codex trumps BRB.

PhantomViper wrote:I know that we aren't supposed to discuss this here but my reason is basically this:

Ludovic wrote:The only way it would not be crystal clear is if it did not specify in the guard codex that elements arrive at the same time from Reserves. It's really just a reiteration of the generic rule for FOC, so it's not a case of Codex trumps BRB.

You do realise that it is not a generic rule? If a Space Marine Squad and a Rhino are Placed in reserve not embarked they roll 2 reserve dice. If a Space marine Squad is mounted in a Land Raider bought from Heavy Support, they roll only one. Where did you get this idea that each FoC only rolls one dice?

The platoon rules are more specific. While it seems fairly clear that B is the most sensible way to play it, it is certainly not the most correct.

Gwar! wrote:You do realise that it is not a generic rule? If a Space Marine Squad and a Rhino are Placed in reserve not embarked they roll 2 reserve dice. If a Space marine Squad is mounted in a Land Raider bought from Heavy Support, they roll only one. Where did you get this idea that each FoC only rolls one dice?

I meant a generic rule in the sense that the Platoon rule says what to do with platoons in reguard to FOC, deployment and reserves (or in other words, in general), while the squadron rule specifically says what to do with units embarked in vehicle squadrons for the specific case of arriving from reserves. So IMO it is a more specific rule and takes precedence.

Yes, but it is a specific special rule that modifies the reserve rules. Its also in a codex, thus takes precedence over the general squadron rules.

You should run for prime minister. You are right there with Tony Blair.

G

A.

It is the only way to "break no rule"

The codex states that all elements of the platoon count as one for reserves. It doesn't matter if you stick them in Chimeras or Vendetttas, or even if they footslog.

They must come in on one reserve roll.

D. I think that you make the roll for the entire platoon, and if they get it, the entire platoon is allowed to come in. Now since the valkyries are in squadrons, if the whole squadron isn't available, then the squad inside from the infantry platoon unit can't come in unless the specific squadron makes its reserve roll.

This is great stuff yak! Keep it up!



G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You should run for prime minister. You are right there with Tony Blair.

G

Tony Blair made for a good PM.

I voted option A BTW. It seems that the platoon must arrive as a whole according to it's rules. The valk also has a rule stating that it arrives along with whatever it has embarked, on a single role.

I like to stay out of YMDC for a reason, but I'll try the one-reply thing.

Option A is clearly wrong. The Transport Reserves rule says you roll for the unit and transport *collectively*, as a single item. There isn't any rolling being done for Platoon B, nor the Vets, nor the CCS.

Option B is also wrong, because it's rolling for Valkyrie squadrons, rather than collective blocks. The Platoon Reserve rule specifies that it is rolled as a collective, so at a minimum you need to roll for each Platoon.

Option C also fails because now, you're making 2 rolls for Platoons, rather than rolling collectively.


There seems to be this unstated leap of logic that somehow rolling for a Squadron supersedes rolling for (unit+transport).


So I choose Option D:

ignore the Valk Squadrons when rolling for the unit & transport together!

Roll for Platoons collectively, and if they arrive, they bring their *attached* Transports with them:
- roll for Platoon A (includes 3 Valks from X, Y & Z))
- roll for Platoon B (includes 1 Valk from X)
- roll for the CCS (includes 1 Valk from Y)
- roll for PBS (includes 1 Valk from Y)
- roll for each Vet squad (includes 1 Valk from X, 2 from Z)
This handles arrival per the Platoon and Preparing Reserves rules.

Now, we deal with the Valkyrie Squadrons. If the *entire* Squadron doesn't arrive from Reserves, simply following precedent for partially immobilized Squadron elements / broken coherency and treat the remainder of the Squadron as *DESTROYED*.

So, assume that the rolls are:
PA = YES (for all)
PB = NO (for all - 2 units not embarked on Valks)
CCS = NO
PBS = NO
3 Vets = NO YES YES

In this case, we have the following:

VS "X": X1(PA1) = OK, X2 (PB) = Destroyed, X3 (V1) = Destroyed
VS "Y": Y1 (PA2) = OK, Y2 (CCS) = Destroyed, Y3 (PBS) = Destroyed
VS "Z": Z1 (PA3) = OK, Z2 (V2) = OK, Z3 = V3) = OK.

Losing 4 of 9 Valks to the deployment gamble, I don't think any opponent would have a problem with the above result...

I voted for 'A' but I misread it and meant for 'B'. Imo those two choices best follow the KISS rule which I think is what GW would go for as well; KISS = Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Option B does break the Platoon rule but it avoids the idiocy of a full army walking on with one dice roll. Best option IMO.

Warboss Nidsplitta wrote:D. I think that you make the roll for the entire platoon, and if they get it, the entire platoon is allowed to come in. Now since the valkyries are in squadrons, if the whole squadron isn't available, then the squad inside from the infantry platoon unit can't come in unless the specific squadron makes its reserve roll.

This sounds exactly like B to me?

Voted B, as it just makes things simpler this way. Also doesn't let the IG player game the reserves system.

On a side note: Has anyone actually run into this madness in game?

I haven't had to deal with this yet as I don't have an opponent who plays guard, but I voted D. If I played Guard I wouldn't try to hold a squadron of Valks in reserve if that squadron was carrying individual elements from different platoons (which were also in reverve). It just causes the game to break too much. This needs addressing. I think I'll finally use the email service GW provides to see how he thinks on it.

Option A

Yet another reason why the IG faq is not all it's been hyped up to be...

Option D:

You can only put units from the same Infantry Platoon in one Squadron.

Poof... problem solved. Well until you have a Platoon with four squads anyway.

Gah, sodding mispost.

The Green Git wrote:Option D:

You can only put units from the same Infantry Platoon in one Squadron.

Poof... problem solved. Well until you have a Platoon with four squads anyway.

And until you have an opponent point out to you than no such rule exists.

I would play A and allow any opponent to do the same. I would of course bring this up pre-game if I thought it was a possibility for either of us to be able to do it in the first place and wouldn't object to playing using B if my opponent objected to A.

Keeping in mind I am not a fan of Valkries and since the new dex I have yet to buy one and probably will only buy ONE just to say I own one and am undefeated....
I VOted OTHER


I would say this:

If you make your platoon Roll. All squads weather weather mounted in a valkrie or not may WALK on.

If you make your valkrie roll. ALL SQUADS mounted inside may come on in the valkrie.

If you make your individual squad rolls, they may walk on still should thier valkrie squad fail.

Personally investing 900 points in valkries is ...well I dont know. Maybe smart but just not my style.

The bottom line is that a Valkrie squad MAY NOT break coherency. However the indivual squads can. Hence thier ability to walk on.

So this gives you more chances to bring certain squads onto the table. If they fail their platoon roll or squad roll then perhaps they can still come on if the valkarie squad makes their roll.

Edited for minor grammar and spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS this does not mean you MUST bring/walk squads on. It gives you the option. Yes, everything I said is backed up by rules even by the "Permissive" view of rules. No rules are broken by this logic. This line of reasoning is a MAY take on the rules vs. a MUST. THis gives more flexibility to the IG player.

I'm going with D
We don't allow mix and match platoon/squadron shenanigans.
I know it has no official rules bearing, but it's less abusive seeming.

I voted B

The rules clearly state on page 94, under Preparing for Reserves section in the 4th paragraph:

"...the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and arrive together."

This indicates that in terms of deployment the unit and the transport would cut most ties with there original location. In this case the infintry unit would detach itself from the platoon and be counted as part of the valkyrie squadron for purposes of deployment, but the valkyrie doesn't cut ties with the squadron because there are in-game rules for squadron but platoons DO NOT have in game rules, meaning that there are rules that mean squadrons must be kept together but the platoon does not have rules that mean it has to remain together, in fact the platoon doesn't even have any rules that mean it has to be deployed together!

The only reason that they are rolled together is because a platoon is like a small army which has some basic infintry, an overall comand and maybe some specialised heavy or special weapons crews which train together, live together, sleep together, eat together and depending on how far apart they are, will probably die together too. It would be silly for them to leave some of their comrads behind on the eve of battle! This also explains why they count as 1 troops choice. Ofcourse, it is not impossible for a single squad of the platoon to be selected by a higher ranking officer then the one in charge of the platoon to join a seperate formation for whatever plans he has up his sleeves, generals do this all the time in real life, which is what this is based on, so that it makes logical sense that for just 1 battle, the squad can be pryed away from their beloved platoon.

Also this doesn't brake any rules, nor does it make the game broken. Squad is deployed in the valk, the rest of the platoon have to find their own way to the battlefield. Simple. There is nothing unfair or broken I can see about that. That valk squadrons are completely unaffected if any of the platoons fails their reserves role because the squads inside the valk aren't really appart of the platoon anymore, or at least for deployment their not, and same aplies to all other squads attached to the valks for the exact same reasons.

Or at least thats the thought behind how I'd play it.

I would say that you have to fill up valks in a squad with your platoon before you put models in the next one.

So a 4 squad IP fills 3 valks from one squad, then 1 from the next.

2 2 squad IP's fill up 2 valks from one squad with one of the IP's, and the other IP has to fill up 2 valks from a different squad.

Then the remaining valks (assuming you are taking 3 per squad) can be filled with other units.

I would then make the person roll for each mixed unit as per normal as if they were coming on walking/flying seperately (so any valk squad with more than 1 IP and unit inside it).

Only if all the joined units passed would I let them come on. Passed rolls from previous rounds could carry over to the next turn.

Kinda... not really sure as I am not totally up on the rules, but from what I understand, that is what I would do.