Why hate Ultramarines

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**Caelun Niveus**

I under stand that many players seem to dislike the Ultramarines (myself indifferent), but I was wanting to know why they receive so much flak. As far as I can tell, it's cause they are over uses in both fluff and by novice players. Like a half-breed between "Noob-tubes" and StarTrek's Ensign Crusher.

What is the over all reason, and what is your PERSONAL reason for disliking them.

**Fearspect**

I don't care, to be honest I think they have some of the better background from a lot of chapters.

Most hate them because of the exact reasons you stated, and also because it is cool to hate things that are popular. It makes you 'edgy' - like a little emo kid.

**Brother SRM**

The same reason people hate the popular kids in high school. That and it's cool to hate the posterboys, amiriteguyz?

Personally I think they're pretty cool. I like the colorscheme, models, and fluff aside from all that "best Space Marine ever" bull-honkey.

**oggers**

Caelun Niveus wrote: Like a half-breed between "Noob-tubes" and StarTrek's Ensign Crusher.

You summed them up completely.

**Delephont**

I run an Ultramarine army, because to run any other force is pure stupidity....why?

Ultramarines are THE Codex Chapter. Which means, in terms of support from GW, these boys are guaranteed to get first look at the pie!

If you played Dark Angels, or Blood Angels and until very recentley, Space Wolves, then you would be seriously behind the times with the New standards set by Codex Space Marines.....so why the hell would you spend time and energy on an army that is below par!

Some will say its because they like the colour scheme, or the fluff, but come on...how like the fluff is the game mechanics anyway? and how important is colour scheme, when every other army is handing you your ass everytime you load your minis on the table?

Because of GW stupidity at managing their own products, its makes no sense to buy or play anything but their poster boy army!

**starbomber109**

I don't mind the Ultras, in fact I like the Roman/Greek theme they have going. The reason people hate them a lot, I think, is twofold.

1. GW over-supports them (Special Characters from ultramarines in Codex:Space Marines? Five. The other famous chapters? only one each...)

2. A lot of noobs play them (not really the fault of the noobs, see 1.) this leads to them becoming veterans and good players....but with space marines. As such, you see LOTS of space marines at tournaments, and even more Ultramarines.

**Caelun Niveus**

starbomber109 wrote:I don't mind the Ultras, in fact I like the Roman/Greek theme they have going. The reason people hate them a lot, I think, is twofold.

1. GW over-supports them (Special Characters from ultramarines in Codex:Space Marines? Five. The other famous chapters? only one each...)

2. A lot of noobs play them (not really the fault of the noobs, see 1.) this leads to them becoming veterans and good players....but with space marines. As such, you see LOTS of space marines at tournaments, and even more Ultramarines.

Ah, so my assumptions were close. Heh, even the Orks only seem to have two special characters (checking the website).

Worst part I can see about the second fact though, is that under those circumstances I'm sure that GW sees it as a reason to give Ultras more support. And with everyone playing SM the other factions are left behind as they don't generate as much profit. *Looks at Dark Eldar*

**JD21290**

Caelun, ork special characters:

Ghaz
Dok
wazdakka
Zogwort
zagstruk
Snikrot
Badrukk

7 Special characters aint bad

On topic though, i tend to agree with the main reasoning above.
Marines tend to be a starter chapter, and ultras are the main colour (being a codex chapter and all)
This leads to new players collecting and playing ultras very often.
As they get better you then have alot more ultra armies.

**Alpharius**

To be honest, it wasn't all that bad until the most recent Codex: Space Marines in which we learned that:

1) EVERYONE wants to be an Ultramarine. Everyone.

2) And not only that, but EVERYONE wants to be an Ultramarine TACTICAL SQUAD marine.

Seriously!

**Humblesteve**

I've always been that way about them. It's kinda funny how they are the "good" guys. Any boxed set has to be them fighting something. An Eldar/Ork box set ala AoBR wouldn't feel too out of place, because it wouldn't include ultras.

While we're on the subject, when did ultras pick up a roman theme? I don't remember the last gen plastic having anything roman.

**darkkt**

I dont feel one way or the other, they all fall to my legions of chaos!!!

In all seriousness, the Ultras are GW's primary marketing product. They have market presence (whether you love them or hate them you at least know them), and they are the default model for 'Space Marine Perfection'. they are viewed as generic because they are supposed to be generic. All other chapters deviate from this 'norm' and are therefore stronger in some tactical areas, and weaker in others.

It makes sense to market the baseline product broadly, and support this with your supplemental armies. But this is exactly why they generate the hate - highly marketed and baseline (boring).

**Vindicator#9**

I second darkkt.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

p. 24, C:SM wrote:...this is the tale of the Ultramarines and all who follow their example.

**grankobot**

Why hate them? Well, let's look at what they've accomplished.

Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Robute Guilliman, is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Half of all Space Marine chapters betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. Terra is sieged by the traitors, most Astartes legions suffer major losses, the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are forced to make a stand on Terra, while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld,the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed,and the Emperor is crippled. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

546.M32: 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor, into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros (Fire Hawks' world) thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completly destroyed by a warp storm, still existing today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated.

745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines homeworld Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids.

901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into an Ork Waaagh! while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels.

757998.M41 The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate, and soon Ghazghkull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

5999.M41 Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

As an additional note of interest, there stands reasonable evidence that the Ultramarines are partially responsible for unleashing the Nightbringer on the galaxy in the current age. On the planet Pavonis, it was brought to the attention of Uriel Ventris, of the 4th company of the Ultramarines, that a group of revolutionaries were digging their way straight to the Nightbringer's sarcophogus while the Dark Eldar rounded up the keys to unlock the thing. Uriel was given a choice: he could either exterminatus the planet, burying the Nightbringer, revolutionaries, and Dark Eldar all at once in a single fell swoop, or he could boost his own ego by making a balls-first attack on the excavation site with nothing but chain swords and bolters. Unfortunately for the entire galaxy, Uriel chose the latter of these options, lost the fight, and let Nightbringer get free.

Seems like the community's ill feelings aren't entirely unfounded.

**Cheese Elemental**

You didn't credit me for the copypasta sauce, man.

**Darth Bob**

Delephont wrote:

Some will say its because they like the colour scheme, or the fluff, but come on...how like the fluff is the game mechanics anyway? and how important is colour scheme, when every other army is handing you your ass everytime you load your minis on the table?

This may come as a shock but some of us actually enjoy 40k as a hobby, and consider other factors than winning...the army we choose can be greatly affected by the fluff and aesthetics (unless you are a power gamer).

I wouldn't say I hate the Smurfs...it just seems like too many people play them. I guess the reason alot of people dislike them is because they're GW's poster boys, and they leave us to gather dust while the Ultras get all the attention.

Nine times out of ten, when you say "Space Marines" the first image that comes to people's mind is the Ultramarines.

**daedalusaf**

I hate them because they have their own movie coming out.

There. I said it.

**Alpharius**

Well, there is that too...

**kaiservonhugal**

I like 'em. Though it urks me that they're always away from the fight.

**Quintinus**

Caelun Niveus wrote:I under stand that many players seem to dislike the Ultramarines (myself indifferent), but I was wanting to know why they receive so much flak. As far as I can tell, it's cause they are over uses in both fluff and by novice players. Like a half-breed between "Noob-tubes" and StarTrek's Ensign Crusher.

There you go, you listed my reason.

And the whole Marysue Calgar doesn't help.

**Bramnero**

To be honest, I don't like the colour scheme on any Ultramarines model, except for Sternguard. The thing about the colour scheme is that it just doesn't look very badass, unlike a team like Dark Angels or Space Wolves (things don't get more badass than Space Wolves).

**H.B.M.C.**

People dislike them because they are popular and highly visable. It's 40K's Tall, Grim & Dark Poppy Syndrome at work.

I can abso-fething-lutely guarantee you that if the Blood Angels had been on the front of every box and book for the past 15 years, we'd be having the exact same conversation about them.

Vladsimpaler wrote:And the whole Marysue Calgar doesn't help.

You watch your tongue boy. I'll have none speak ill of my Half Brother.

**Cease**

I ain't got anything against the Ultramarines apart from they are widely over-used by newer players. If GW gave the other chapters a bit more support then i think we would have a more balanced scenario. Myself, i like Tau.

Cease

**SagesStone**

I'm indifferent, most of their hate is probably the result of the stories about them. They just seem to always be the overpowered god-like chapter.

**Jag_Calle**

I dislike 'em, as above quoted of them being at the wrong side of tha galaxy, to do ANYTHING useful.

And the fact that they almost started a second civil war amongst the astartes when guiliman tried to shove his book down the throats of any surviving primarchs and legions (even going so far as to open fire on an imperial fist ship...

After going through all the trouble of having his book "published", almost bringing about a disaster (see above) when trying to make the rest follow it, all of a sudden, amendments start popping up like in orwells animal farm.

All legions will be split into smaller chapters, so no individual holds that kind of power again. the IG and fleet are also separated from the legions. except for the Ultramarines, who:
A: Holds an entire sector, with fleets and "pdf" enugh to put an IG battleforce to boot.
B: due to them being busy chasing some alpha legionaries and guilliman writing a book on philosophy the UM legion had the largest numbers which survived the heresy, hence some 80-90% of all chapters hail from the UM and give reverence to macragge.
C: Oh, GUillimans little book also refused to acknowledge specialist skills, hence going for a balanced approach. but then the UM's develop specialist skills (tyranid hunters) and whopety dooda, all of a sudden the ultramarines are allowed to have specialist troops...

sounds like double standards to me.

All animals are equal - but pigs are more equal...

Oh, and in the grim future of 40k, where all is dark, oppression, horridity and such, we have this wee section called macragge (check it out on the map, it's HUGE), where the sun allwas shines, the grass is green and all men (and women)are free and equal...

PHOEY! I say.
I dig their greek/spartan style in some aspects, but they should have tossed in the more ambiguos bits of greek history.. Democracy (only male, noble, landowners are allowed to vote..)... Now THAT would have fit into 40k... The spartan proverb "come home with your shield or on it" mentality rather than "let's regroup and rethink this...".

the UM could have been cool, but fluffwise now adays, they're outshined by just about any other flavour of marine, up to and including the rainbow ones...

//Calle

**Manchu**

Defending the Ultramarines

**oggers**

Maybe it would be better if, instead of ultramarines hurrr on every box, the chapters would alternate.

**SagesStone**

Well every race has their a single faction on the boxes, if there are some with alternate one's I've forgotten them. If anything the Space Marine ones are actually more diverse because there are at least three different factions for the boxes. If anything the hate for them comes from the hate of the Space Marines as it appears to be the beginners army and, while unfair to the other races, showing off the Space Marines the most actually gets new players. The problem is when they get stuck with Space Marines to the point where there are probabaly more Space Marines than Guardsmen, Gaunts and Boyz combined.

**children of filth**

I don't hate them, I just don't like them. I ignore them mostly.

**infilTRAITOR**

For me it comes from a way of thinking I adopted when I was still at school that normal is boring. The fact that Ultramarines are strictly Codex means that they have to remain the benchmark for other Chapters to compare themselves too. So, they have to be average.

Forget GWs mediocre attempt to glam them up as Tyranid hunters. These guys are just dull. Why go with Ultramarines when there are so many other chapters that are much more enriching?