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2011/09/04 21:24:52
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
Some people early on seemed to suggest that Xenomorphes were AVP equivilents to Genestealers.If that was the case,could a Space Marine Sgt with a pistol and sword beat a handful of Stealers hand to hand? Don't even answer,because it is obviously no.The Predators can beat many Xenomorphes in CC,and they generally have far quicker reactions to them.That would mean that if Xenomorphes are Genestealers(Int 6),then Predators would be at least Int 7.They tend to kill Xenomorphes with a singlke blow,and every blow struck one more is dead.I woould put that as str 5 at the least.Armour,it is strong,but there isn't much of it,so a 5+.Preds don't seem to miss Xeniomorphes,so a Genestealer with WS 6,it must have WS 7.BS would be just higher than the marine due to tactical targeting systems.
Here is the general picture of Predas for 40k statlines that i havve reckoned upon.
WS7 BS5 S6 T4(couldn't be that tough,as most of marines toughness comes from the Black Carrapace and enhanced bone density) W1.A bolt could probably kill it. Int 7 Attacks 3.They are a whirlwind of melee death. Ld 10.No one will dispute this I hope. Sv 5+
Rules Fleet Stealth
Jump Infantry(they actually jump!).
Wargear Spear-allows you to REroll armour saves and +1 intiative,similar to GK Halbreds,and the reroll because they could block with the spear. Wristbaldes. Lightning Claws,but take away 1 from you armour,because they don't have a forcefield,just really sharp. 2 Plasma Casters- 2 PP. Heat Sensory mask They enemy loses 1 from its cover save. Enhanced hearing- Acute senses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/04 21:25:32
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2011/09/04 21:28:39
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
You conveniently leave out the panel showing that the predator is chest-deep in sludge and sinking when struck. Very honest argument there. What are you trying to prove with that image, that the guy could chop an arm right in front of him?
Grunt13 wrote:Again Predators are not all that.
"Marines are not all that because they've been sniped by humans. The predator could easily snipe the marine." A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C...great logic isn't it?
Since you're fixated on melee, why don't you ever talk about how lone predators carve through packs of xenomorphs?
How even predator students are able to slaughter multiple xenomorphs in close combat.
Are those feats consistent with losing to a knife-wielding human protagonist? According to your ABC logic, humans must be better than xenomorphs in melee because humans beat predators and predators beat xenomorphs.
How about predators who kill xenomorphs with their bare hands, who solo alien queens the size of Carnifexes? Could a SM sergeant defeat a Carnifex in close combat? AvP Hunter's Planet
Spoiler:
"It is true," said the short adjutant, whose name was Lar'nix'va. "These
are rank beginners and have never fought Hard Meat before. It is not fitting
that a few feints be made by the Blooded-especially when the Blooded is said
to have fought the Hard Meat bare-fisted."
"And torn off its head!" spat Nat'ka'pu proudly. "Very well. But mark my
methods, for I will leave the final killing to you, my students."
That said, the Leader turned and walked jauntily. He'd weaken the thing so
that his charges could dispatch it easily.
AvP Prey
Spoiler:
Seated in front of the sensor array on Ne’dtesei, Yeyinde watched the alien ship dwindle in their wake. He was Leader; his very name meant “brave one” but he knew the warriors called him “Dachande” when they thought his ears too dull to hear them. That name meant “different knife,” and it referred to his left lower tusk, broken in a bare-handed fight against the Hard Meat, the kainde amedha, they of the black armored exoskeletons and acid blood. He smiled inwardly at the name. It could be considered an insult, but he was proud of it.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2011/09/04 22:10:05
I think this issue should have been addressed a long time ago:
Against aliens, the predators are close combat killing machines, but against human protagonists, they often fail. * As with everything, there are exceptions. Sometimes the alien surprises the predator. Sometimes the alien just wins. A predators is able to kill multiple aliens in most of the fluff.
- So far, I've quoted passages and posted pictures showing that a predator can easily beat a xenomorph, even a pack of xenomorphs. Xenomorphs are often likened to Genestealers.
- Now, I think we can all agree that in melee, xenomorphs are much deadlier than humans. In AvP Prey, even an "inexperienced novice" predator slices up a dozen or so xenomorphs before being swamped. Veterans kill with greater efficiency, avoid being outflanked, and survive these encounters quite easily.
- However, it is also true that predators have lost to humans. Noguchi and the 1000 year old samurai are just two examples.
Going through the fluff, I can easily group the predators' performances into three categories:
1) Against xenomorphs Against aliens, predators are often portrayed as engines of destruction, even in the movie-verse. This is especially true in AvP Requiem, not so much in AvP. According to the directors, the predators in AvP are teenagers and the predator in AvP Requiem is a veteran. In the novels and comics, predators generally have no problem slicing and dicing multiple xenomorphs in close combat.
2) Against human protagonists The predators' do quite poorly here, for an obvious reason: the plot. When facing human protagonists, the predators are no longer these close combat killing machines. Suddenly, they're quite beatable.
3) Against non-protagonist humans Once again, the predators are killing machines, often slaughtering hapless victims by the dozen.
Thus, in close combat, whether the predator has a chance against the sergeant depends on which version of the predator is given more weight:
- If we focus on the predators' performance against xenomorphs, the predator has a decent chance.
- If we focus on their performance against human protagonists, then yeah, I guess the predator is doomed.
Cerebrium wrote:One-on-one, Yautja.
Why?
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2011/09/05 17:07:20
ok so a predator can kill alot of aliens in cc and maybe aliens are like Genestealers but the sergeant is not just a vicious beast. the sergeant is just as smart as predator. it would be a good fight but i still think the sm wins in cc
2011/09/06 18:58:03
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
The fact that a lone predator is able to dispatch multiple xenomorphs with a blade shows that predators are formidable in close combat.
Using the fallacious "A beats B, B beats C, so A beats C" line of reasoning, I could make the following argument:
1) A veteran predator can easily kill a dozen xenomorphs in close combat.
2) Let's give genestealers the benefit of the doubt and say 3 xenomorphs = 1 genestealer (12 xenomorphs = 4 genestealers).
3) 4 genestealers would shred a space marine sergeant in close combat.
4) The predator would wreck the SM sergeant in close combat.
This type of argument would only provoke a response that predators have been beaten by humans, and around and around we go. In my view, it's far more meaningful to actually analyze the capabilities, tactics, and equipment of both sides without relying primarily on ABC logic, which often leads to silly results as I've pointed out.
The predator's ability to snipe the marine would also depend on whether his shoulder cannon fires beams or bolts. Beam shoulder cannons tend to be almost instant hit.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Diifference between novice predator and experienced predator:
novice in action against multiple xenomorphs (AvP Prey)
Spoiler:
Gkyaun howled the war cry and jumped. He landed amid the
hissing drones and moved among them like the setg-in, deadly and
quick. So easy! He spun and slashed, burned and cut at the same
time. Two bugs fell with one slice of his spear.
A drone from behind lost its head; he gutted yet another.
He was Paya, the conquering warrior! Thwei ran at his feet, the
Hard Meat shrank in terror! More came at him, a relentless flow of fury and sound. He pivoted,
Hunted, his every movement was an arc of doom and pain.
Noguchi gulped air and pushed herself backward, toward the top of
the shield wall. The warrior was a dervish of wild energy and
prowess-the nightmare creatures fell all around him.
But more monsters flooded toward him. And despite the fighter's
speed and strength, he fought poorly; he hadn't allowed for no
outcome other than victory. It was as if he were a karateka who had
mastered kata, but had never faced an opponent in actual combat.
veteran in action against multiple xenomorphs (AvP Prey)
Spoiler:
Dachande heard the Hard Meat and spun around. He sprinted past
the two ooman strangers toward the threat, staff forward.
They came in a single-file stream, flowed from around a structure,
ten, maybe twelve. Dachande leaped to greet them.
Two arrived first, angled in from the sides. Dachande spun, swung
completely around, cut them both through their midsections in one
strike. He didn't watch them hit the ground; there was no need-they
were dead and all he need do was avoid the throes.
He extended his kicti-pa and slashed through the throat of the next
drone nearest, to his right. The drone's death cry was garbled through its own thwei.
A split second later, he jabbed the staff point through the jaws of
another, twisted the sharp blade and dug a hole through the top of
the skull. The weapon's metal was proof against the Hard Meat's
thwei, but there was no time to hesitate and enjoy the kill-when you
fight the ten thousand, you do so one at a time, but you also have to
do so quickly He thrust the spear's butt back, hard, and knocked one behind him
down, then turned and slashed its gut. Digest this, foolish creature!
The kicti-pa blurred again, jammed backhand into yet another Hard
Meat chest. The drone howled, fell, did not die but did not rise again.
Acid pumped into the dark air, pooled, smoking. Dachande jumped forward, stabbed the throat of yet another, and
then spun to meet the next. Death fell all around his feet as he and the Hard Meat danced.
. . .
[from the human protagonist's perspective]
Several of the bugs streamed from behind the shed and toward
Broken Tusk. He stepped in to battle without hesitation. Too many of
them, ten, twelve. She aimed at one of the bugs - and it was dead before she fired. She took aim again-and again,
her target had fallen already. She took a step back, transfixed by the swift movements of the
giant warrior. Here was no inexperienced novice; every step was measured,
every strike timed and sure. Within the space of a few seconds, most
of the bugs were down, dead or dying. She had enough training to
recognize a Master when she saw one. This one's skill had been
gained in battle, against deadly enemies. Broken Tusk whirled and jabbed, crouched and slashed with
precision and confidence. Never a misstep, never a hesitation. He was no dojo tiger, covered in padding and
fighting for points. Wherever he had come from, they had a martial arts more complex and dangerous than any
she'd ever seen. It was like a choreographed dance.
experience levels of the different movie predators
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/09/06 19:09:01
The Predator has a good shot if he's stalking an unaware Astartes. Once open combat has begun, the balance swings in the other direction. Even assuming their ranged and hand-to-hand prowess is equal, the Astartes has:
A. better armor - he's not wearing a fishnet t-shirt, and even assuming the spear/lance he uses can penetrate power armor, it would likely need to hit a joint or weak-point. The plasma caster is likely more dangerous, but outside of a surprise headshot from the trees scenario, the Marine's battle plate should provide some degree of protection.
B. better weapons - a direct hit from either a chainsword or a bolt round would severely cripple, if not kill the predator outright. Whereas the power armor should soak a hit or two from the plasma caster/spear/wrist-blades, and even being impaled or gutted wouldn't incapacitate an Astartes (depending on which Chapter/Legion he belongs to, it may just make him angry).
C. more durability - kind of picking up from the previous point, an Astartes' wounds clot almost instantly without needing to apply some kind of paste
D. experience against far more dangerous things - arguably things like daemons, Hrud, etc. are far more dangerous than anything in the AVP universe. For example, I don't think xenomorphs come even close to genestealers. Xenomorphs were frequently thwarted by blast doors and bulk heads, whereas genestealers are described as shredding through ceramite like tissue-paper. I would say a genestealer to xenomorphs is what a predator/astartes is to regular joe-shmo humans.
E. more potential for off-the-wall crazy - depending on which Chapter/Legion we're talking about, the Astartes could start spitting acid, or better yet, using psychic powers. At that point, it's lights out for the predator.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 23:50:30
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2011/09/07 00:10:46
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
There was a human female who lived with predators and became such a good fighter that she was accepted into their world as one of their own.
name me 1 human (male or female even though technically speaking female are weaker in combat) who could beat a space marine in combat and be part of their lives i.e going into combat with them and surviving more then 5 min - there is a reason why most imperial guardsmen don't see past their first duty and space marine live well into their 100s.
a predator in a jungle stalking a space marine - yea he could beat a space marine if he hits him by surprise, but even a guardsman can snipe a marine if he is not looking or paying attention but boy oh boy is the predator is trouble if he misses, not only will the marine actively look out for him using things like auspex and then blowing him up to pieces using his automatic grenade/missile launcher cause predators as good as they are cant escape multiple rocket barrages.
And you want to talk about fluff there is a reason why predators don't go out looking for military conquest, they are hunters, they hunt thats all - space marine kill thats all.
ps - didn't the original poster say don't use movie representation of them - in comics preds suck just as bad, a 9mm bullet will damage a predator - I doubt it would phase a space marine (heck I doubt it would get through their skin) let alone get past it armor.
2011/09/07 04:54:37
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
yevix wrote:There was a human female who lived with predators and became such a good fighter that she was accepted into their world as one of their own.
If I had to pick the 40k equivalent of that one-of-a-kind human female who joined the predators, I would say a female Death Cult Assassin.
name me 1 human (male or female even though technically speaking female are weaker in combat) who could beat a space marine in combat and be part of their lives i.e going into combat with them and surviving more then 5 min
Death Cult Assassin
there is a reason why predators don't go out looking for military conquest, they are hunters, they hunt thats all
Well there's the game AvP Extinction, in which we get a taste of predator military gear (belonging to one predator clan). Their military weapons are not too shabby.
in comics preds suck just as bad
Really? Solo-killing a dozen xenomorphs and an alien queen is lame?
Roughly how many xenomorphs is a genestealer worth? 3? 4? Let's say 5 or 6. Could a space marine kill 2 genestealers in close combat?
Not saying the predator auto-wins because he slaughters xenomorphs, but stomping xenomorphs in close combat does show close combat prowess.
Omegus wrote:being impaled or gutted wouldn't incapacitate an Astartes (depending on which Chapter/Legion he belongs to, it may just make him angry).
I think a marine's response to impalement depends on the source.
I've just read Helsreach and Age of Darkness (containing Little Horus and The Iron Within).
1) In Helsreach, an Ork stabs a a Black Templar in the back (with an Ork spear) and the marine staggers and drops his weapon, severely hurt. A guardsman head-shots the Ork, allowing the marine to recover.
2) In Helsreach, a Black Templar is stabbed in the stomach (with an Ork spear) and falls shortly thereafter (to his credit, the marine manages to throw his sword at an Ork accurately).
3) In Helsreach, a Black Templar takes an Ork axe to the stomach. The Black Templar struggles to deal with the pain and damage inflicted by the wound.
4) In Little Horus, an Iron Hand dies after being stabbed in the back (with a sword).
5) In The Iron Within, a Son of Horus promptly dies after being run through (with a gladius).
more durability - kind of picking up from the previous point, an Astartes' wounds clot almost instantly without needing to apply some kind of paste
Are you referring to Predator 2? If you are, the predator's arm doesn't squirt blood. It seems that the paste just closes the wound.
For example, I don't think xenomorphs come even close to genestealers.
Well, I guess that's a whole other debate. Genestealers tear through ceramite. Ork spears and axes are able to punch through ceramite.
How many xenomorphs would be the equivalent of one genestealer in your estimation?
the Astartes could start spitting acid, or better yet, using psychic powers. At that point, it's lights out for the predator.
Librarian = lights out for the predator
Spitting acid? I don't think so...one predators is able to kill a dozen xenomorphs in close combat. I don't think acid would be the marine's trump card.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/09/07 05:06:05
The thing is arnie and Danny glover beat predators so a marine would woop him.
No I reckon thee marine would be too strong for the predator. And one punch from a marine fluff wise would turn the pred to goo. I love predator but I think he would get proper slapped.
I am Gamesworkshop!
2011/09/07 10:39:34
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
name me 1 human (male or female even though technically speaking female are weaker in combat) who could beat a space marine in combat and be part of their lives i.e going into combat with them and surviving more then 5 min
Death Cult Assassin
Maybe survive for 5 minutes, but defeat them? Nah, we'd have to be talking about Officio Assassinorum, who would eat an Astartes for breakfast.
Roughly how many xenomorphs is a genestealer worth? 3? 4? Let's say 5 or 6. Could a space marine kill 2 genestealers in close combat?
Not saying the predator auto-wins because he slaughters xenomorphs, but stomping xenomorphs in close combat does show close combat prowess.
I'm not sure we can make such a comparison as 6 of X = 2 of Y. All that speed and strength combined in one creature is exponentially more dangerous. Let's say Bruce Lee had the strength of 100 toddlers. I wouldn't stand a chance against Bruce Lee, but I could probably stomp my way through 100 toddlers.
Omegus wrote:being impaled or gutted wouldn't incapacitate an Astartes (depending on which Chapter/Legion he belongs to, it may just make him angry).
I think a marine's response to impalement depends on the source.
I've just read Helsreach and Age of Darkness (containing Little Horus and The Iron Within).
1) In Helsreach, an Ork stabs a a Black Templar in the back (with an Ork spear) and the marine staggers and drops his weapon, severely hurt. A guardsman head-shots the Ork, allowing the marine to recover.
2) In Helsreach, a Black Templar is stabbed in the stomach (with an Ork spear) and falls shortly thereafter (to his credit, the marine manages to throw his sword at an Ork accurately).
3) In Helsreach, a Black Templar takes an Ork axe to the stomach. The Black Templar struggles to deal with the pain and damage inflicted by the wound.
Well, obviously Black Templar are a bunch of pussies. Also, Ork weapons are magic. The Iron Hand and Son of Horus took shots to vital organs, IIRC, and at least one of the weapons was powered.
more durability - kind of picking up from the previous point, an Astartes' wounds clot almost instantly without needing to apply some kind of paste
Are you referring to Predator 2? If you are, the predator's arm doesn't squirt blood. It seems that the paste just closes the wound.
He applies the paste and then cauterizes the wound. The one in Predator 1 bleeds like a stuck pig. I know we're not using the prowess/events of the movies, but I would assume they still have the same basic biology even when more experienced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
spudkins wrote:The thing is arnie and Danny glover beat predators so a marine would woop him.
No I reckon thee marine would be too strong for the predator. And one punch from a marine fluff wise would turn the pred to goo. I love predator but I think he would get proper slapped.
Given how many times this has been brought up, I can only assume you're trying to stir up a flame war. Stop it.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2011/09/07 14:59:12
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2011/09/07 14:47:11
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
Omegus wrote:Maybe survive for 5 minutes, but defeat them?
I don't really play the table top game (I read 40k books because I like the covers )...what are the stats of a marine and a Death Cult Assassin?
If you know of a fluff example of marine vs. DC assassin, that would be even better
strength of 100 toddlers. I wouldn't stand a chance against Bruce Lee, but I could probably stomp my way through 100 toddlers.
LOL but seriously, xenomorph:genestealer does not equal toddler:Bruce Lee. What you're talking about is dividing strength into incredibly small units.
A more accurate question would be "If you were a hunter with a spear, would you rather fight a single lion or several panthers?"
In my view, 20 xenomorphs are worth more than 1 genestealer. 15...still worth more. 10...still worth more. Below 10? Now there's room for debate.
Well, obviously Black Templar are a bunch of pussies. Also, Ork weapons are magic.
Ork machines are magic (things with moving parts that shouldn't be able to work), not so sure about crude blades and spears.
The Iron Hand and Son of Horus I took shots to vital organs, IIRC, and at least one of the weapons was powered.
The gladius (non-powered) kills the Son of Horus more swiftly than the power sword (different authours I suppose). Also, I don't think a blade would necessarily cause more damage just because its powered. Sure, it would penetrate with more ease, but if the puncture wound is around the same size as a puncture wound caused by a really sharp non-powered weapon, the wound shouldn't be any more devastating.
He applies the paste and then cauterizes the wound.
Well, my point is that the stump of the predator's arm doesn't leak blood, so the predator's blood, in that instance, clots extremely fast. In the movie, the end of the stump is neon green, but there's no dripping blood. The paste probably forms a layer over the open wound and I suppose the paste also cauterizes.
Biology wouldn't change with experience, but I don't think I've made a claim to the contrary.
spudkins wrote:I love predator but I think he would get proper slapped.
If you give more weight to how predators fare against xenomorphs, the predator would be dangerous in close combat even for a space marine sergeant.
If you give more weight to how predators fare against human protagonists, then yeah, I guess the sergeant would walk all over the predator.
Two of the humans protagonists mentioned earlier, the woman who joins the predators and the 1000+ year old samurai, are more comparable to Death Cult Assassins than to normal humans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/07 17:08:15
You can't really use game stats to make a comparison, otherwise the most powerful and expensive armor in the 41st millennium fails 17% of the time against a butter knife. They have fanaticism, a death-wish (hence the name), and some ninja-training on their side, but are otherwise un-enhanced humans.
You'd have to look to the Officio Assassinorum for assassins that could stand up to Marines, and they eat Marines for breakfast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/07 19:54:30
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2011/09/08 01:58:19
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
yevix wrote:There was a human female who lived with predators and became such a good fighter that she was accepted into their world as one of their own.
If I had to pick the 40k equivalent of that one-of-a-kind human female who joined the predators, I would say a female Death Cult Assassin.
just to point out most death cult assassin aren't NORMAL humans not only do they get trained from birth but a lot are cybernetic ally enhanced and psychologically trained - In inquisitor rulebook they had a death cult assassin who didn't have bones so they could fit inside water pipes with ease.
and in the movie a predator got beat by a human using a katana - now imagine that human fully armored a big chain katana and fought things scarier then a predator
name me 1 human (male or female even though technically speaking female are weaker in combat) who could beat a space marine in combat and be part of their lives i.e going into combat with them and surviving more then 5 min
Death Cult Assassin
see above
there is a reason why predators don't go out looking for military conquest, they are hunters, they hunt thats all
Well there's the game AvP Extinction, in which we get a taste of predator military gear (belonging to one predator clan). Their military weapons are not too shabby.
and in that game the predators fought against humans on fair ground - so you are saying humans marine from avp universe are better or on par with space marine? unless 1 predator in that game killed hundreds of humans (without hunting them or going stealth) I highly doubt their gear is that great.
in comics preds suck just as bad
Really? Solo-killing a dozen xenomorphs and an alien queen is lame?
Roughly how many xenomorphs is a genestealer worth? 3? 4? Let's say 5 or 6. Could a space marine kill 2 genestealers in close combat?
Not saying the predator auto-wins because he slaughters xenomorphs, but stomping xenomorphs in close combat does show close combat prowess.
you think xenomorphs are stronger then genestealers???? I would say they are genestealers are better cause they dont get beaten by ICE - you realise I can destroy a whole world of xenomorphs simply throwing liquid nitrogen on them ICE (or cold) hurts them as seen in movies and comics and games etc.
If you read comics including alien comics you can clearly see human doing similar things with guns - heck Ripley fragged a whole colony with duck tape 3 guns and a girl on her shoulder, beat the queen killed hundreds of xenomorphs and she isnt even a soldier she is a space trucker sure it wast cc but come on GUN BEATS SWORD all the time.
take 1 pred full CC gear and take 1 human loaded with guns - who do you think will win
2011/09/10 03:20:48
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
Omegus wrote:You can't really use game stats to make a comparison
Well, in my opinion game states are useful to a degree in making comparisons.
Units that are "superior" in the fluff generally have higher stats than units that are "inferior" in the fluff.
That said, I would not say something like "a guardsman has strength 3, a marine has strength 4, a guardsman is three quarters as strong as a marine".
yevix wrote:you think xenomorphs are stronger then genestealers????
What I AM saying is that in my opinion, if a predator can easily slice up 12 xenomorphs, that same predator should be able to beat a few genestealers in close combat.
I think "xenomorph vs. genestealer" is worthy of its own debate. I don't think a genestealer is that much better than a xenomorph (if at all).
just to point out most death cult assassin aren't NORMAL humans not only do they get trained from birth but a lot are cybernetic ally enhanced and psychologically trained
In comics, quite a few unaugmented human characters perform ridiculous, "superhuman" feats. Batman, Daredevil, and Elektra spring to mind. None of them are augmented. For example, I wouldn't say a Death Cult Assassin would automatically win against Elektra just because Elektra isn't augmented with cybernetic enhancements.
I would definitely categorize the Noguchi character as an unaugmented human character who performs as if she were augmented.
and in the movie a predator got beat by a human using a katana
...and in the novels/comics, one predator mops the floor with a dozen aliens and kills the alien queen in close combat. I don't know about you, but I'd say a pack of 12 aliens is more deadly than one guy with a katana. The only explanations for this difference in ability are:
1) the portrayals are inconsistent (different writers, different stories with different needs, etc.)
2) predator skill varies enormously with experience level AND/OR
3) predators are nerfed when they fight human protagonists (when they fight aliens or non-protagonist humans, they utterly dominate almost every time)
in that game the predators fought against humans on fair ground
...in the game, the predators are the "few in number but each unit is extremely powerful" race, similar to the Protoss in StarCraft. I wouldn't say that a Protoss zealot automatically loses to a SM because the Protoss fight humans "on fair ground".
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2011/09/10 04:17:17
I'd go with the predator with this one. The marine is wearing power armor but the photo details him as not wearing a combat helm, the predator can easily use either one of it's harpoon or dart weapons, disc blades or even plasma weapons to take the marines head off from a stealth position. I mean i know the marines have hardened bone structures but i don't think it can withstand any of the predators ranged weaponry.
Your honor is your life, let non dispute it!
2011/09/10 18:23:01
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
Nope, not a chance. However, I think that the photo was just to illustrate the combatants, and I will give the SM the benefit of the doubt.
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2011/09/11 14:17:13
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
My sgts don't. If you go into battle without it, you get shot, if the enemy don't first. In games I represent this by making the Sgt the first to die if he is missing a helmet, which I rarely do, because I only have 1 who fits the bill.
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2011/09/11 21:33:38
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
Some interesting pred tech featured in South China Sea
Spoiler:
A growling sound and then it had happened – so fast that even though Horia thought he had been firing as soon as Peake had turned, caution be damned, he must have been slower than that.
The creature [Predator] took a white metal ring from a waist loop, tossed it over Peake’s neck – almost contemptuously Horia thought – and disappeared.
A split second later, Peake turned into a perfect white skeleton. One moment he was there pissing his pants and struggling with the collar and the next he was just an upright skeleton, bones fused together, all of his flesh and blood just sloshing into the grass, foaming over the dirt.
Spoiler:
Then suddenly the spaceship door opened . . .
The Predator shot out from the open door atop a grey hovering surface that looked like a sled . . . With the Predator came light, an event horizon of light, radiating swiftly from the groove around the side of the spaceship. A circle of light golden and light green, mixing and hissing. Streaming out on all sides, traveling a few inches off the ground. It kept coming and coming, the Predator riding over it like a surfer . . .
Not a defensive weapon, an offensive weapon.
Gustat heard a cry . . . and another sound above the hum of the deadly light, the sound of trees and bushes splintering, vaporizing, and crumbling, and then he was looking both at the edge of the light coming at him, like a phosphorescent horizontal buzz saw, and the flat surface of that light, striations like rings in a redwood . . .
Wearily Gustat climbed out of the mud to a scene of utter devastation. The light radiating from the spacecraft had singed, burned, or just pulverized anything three inches above the ground . . .
For all Gustat knew, the entire island had just been destroyed except for the spaceship and the area immediately around it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/12 02:07:58
But again, that particular piece of fiction is stand-out when it comes to how uber Predators and their technology is. In fact, you've so far based 90% of your argument on that book alone.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2011/09/12 03:07:37
Subject: Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
Omegus wrote:you've so far based 90% of your argument on that book alone.
I suggest you read the previous few pages of debate (concerning close combat skill). "90%" of my argument has been based on AvP Prey, AvP Hunter's Planet, AvP Civilized Beasts, and other Aliens vs. Predator sources showing that a single predator can usually mop the floor with multiple xenomorphs. So far, I've only cited South China Sea for a high kill count and a few descriptions highlighting speed and durability.
Again, can I be faulted for focusing on sources that clearly feature "elite" predators if the OP specifies an "elite veteran predator"?
b1soul wrote:For experienced, "above-average" predators, I would refer to and have referred to Aliens vs. Predator Prey (the original novel, which probably should carry more weight), Civilized Beasts (a more recent comic), South China Sea (a more recent novel), Hunter's Planet (an old novel)...if someone absolutely insists on citing the movies, he should be citing AvP Requiem. The Wolf predator in AvP Requiem is confirmed by the directors to be a veteran of his race.
how uber Predators and their technology is
1) What's wrong with citing a valid and fairly recent source? The novel introduces a few new gadgets. They are perfectly valid additions to the predator arsenal.
Predators may employ less advanced or more advanced tech depending on the task at hand. It also makes sense that elite predators have access to fancier gear. Pred tech generally is "uber" in the media.
AvP Extinction details military gear of a specific predator clan. Pretty advanced stuff.
Spoiler:
Vanguard Description
A clan's most seasoned close combat veterans become Vanguards. The Vanguard has both the honor and the responsibility of leading the clans melee assaults. Unlike other melee Predators, the Vanguard is well armored and carries an advanced weapon of awesome potency: the plasma scythe. The scythe's energy blade cannot be stopped by normal matter - a crucial attribute - given that the Vanguard is honor bound to directly engage the clan's most dangerous enemies.
Default Weapon -Plasma Scythe According to Predator law, this eminently dangerous weapon can only be wielded by those who have earned the right to bear it. When it strikes, its blade leaves wounds filled with seething dark plasma. Dark plasma triggers a controlled energy reaction that causes damage in proportion to the mass of the target, enabling the weapon to kill any enemy, regardless of its power, with no more than four hits.
Upgrade - Killscreen Generator
Given its duty to lead the charge against even technically advanced enemies, the Vanguard requires a defensive system to protect against enemy fire. That system is the killscreen generator. This projection spines on this weapon emit unstable streams of dark plasma particles that vaporize incoming enemy projectiles. The killscreen can only vaporize so much mass per unit time, however, enabling enemies to overwhelm the system with large numbers of projectiles.
The Vanguard is best used to attack large or heavily armored targets like purebreed Aliens. Regardless of strength, no enemy can withstand four closely timed plasma scythe strikes. Hence, four Vanguards make for a particularly lethal heavy assault force, since they can kill any single enemy almost instantly. When upgraded, the Vanguard additionally becomes an excellent defensive choice, shielding other Predators from enemy fire and even leaping Facehuggers.
Hydra Description
The Hydra is a military-grade heavy assault Predator, designed to wade into fierce engagements and methodically crush enemy resistance. Because its guided electroshock missiles are particularly damaging to enemies with advanced sensors, the Hydra is an excellent shock trooper, in that it excels at killing enemies that counteract Predator cloaking.
Default Weapon - Electroshock Missile Battery
The Hydra's weapon is its back-mounted personal missile battery, which rapidly fires guided electroshock missiles at enemies within a 360 degree arc. These missiles unerringly seek their target before delivering an armor-penetrating electroshock plasma warhead. This warhead jolts the sensory systems of whatever target it hits, causing extra damage to non-Predator enemies with particularly advanced detection capabilities.
Characteristics - Hydra Shock Barrage
If a Hydra is engaging more than a handful of enemies, it may determine that it is necessary to unleash a full-scale missile barrage. When this happens, the Hydra fires a missile at every target within its visual range, frequently resulting in a truly overwhelming storm of projectiles. Given the energy requirements it places on the Hydra's systems, this maneuver can only be performed periodically, and even then, only when the Hydra is not cloaked.
Characteristics - Tactical Supremacy Armor
Like all military-grade Predators, the Hydra wears tactical supremacy armor. This widely feared protective suit provides its wearer with substantial defenses against kinetic, fire, and acid damage. Its exceptional hardness also deflects outright any projectiles not specifically designed to penetrate armor. Consequently, enemies must make a concentrated effort to defeat any Predators possessing this defensive system.
Upgrade - Warhead Swarm
When upgraded, the Hydra fires electroshock missiles with multiple warheads. When a missile nears its target, it checks to see whether other enemies are within range of its warheads. If so, the missile splits into as many as three separate sub-missiles, each capable of independently striking a different target. This upgrade can cause a Hydra shock barrage to release a mind-boggling number of independent warheads.
The Hydra is a dangerous combatant in most circumstances, though it excels at attacking groups of tough enemies from range. Its tactical supremacy armor gives it excellent staying power when outnumbered, and its shock barrage naturally inflicts tremendous amounts of damage in these situations. The Hydra is also an excellent shock trooper, using its electroshock missiles to destroy cloak detectors and thereby enable other Predators to engage in a sustained, invisible assault.
Blazer Description
The Blazer is a military-grade heavy support trooper capable of rapidly turning its surroundings into a raging firestorm. Its arcing inferno beam ignites most enemies it touches, causing severe fire damage. No other known personal-scale weapon system has the ability to achieve the overall damage output of which the Blazer is capable.
Default Weapon - Blazer
The blazer is a shoulder-mounted energy projector that fires a sweeping inferno beam. Hotter than many stars at its core, an inferno beam works by instantly heating objects it touches to the point of spontaneous combustion. Given this ability, the weapon is designed to hit as many enemies as possible by sweeping in large arcs across its primary target. Since it does not need to be aimed with much precision, the Blazer can continue to fire even while on the move.
Characteristics - Tactical Supremacy Armor
Like all military-grade Predators, the Blazer wears tactical supremacy armor. This widely feared protective suit provides its wearer with substantial defenses against kinetic, fire, and acid damage. Its exceptional hardness also deflects outright any projectiles not specifically designed to penetrate armor. Consequently, enemies must make a concentrated effort to defeat any Predators possessing this defensive system.
Upgrade - Dual Blazers
When upgraded, the Blazer Predator mounts a set of two linked blazers, one on each shoulder. The dual blazers coordinate their fire in order to maximize the damage they inflict, by keeping as many enemies on fire as possible. With this upgrade, a single Blazer Predator can set an entire enemy platoon on fire in seconds.
The Blazer excels at spreading large quantities of damage across multiple targets. This works particularly well against ranged enemies, since they often arrange themselves in ways that are easy for the Blazer to strafe. The Blazer's ability to fire on the move is critical for attacking melee enemies, since it enables the Predator to run from them while continuing its strafing. Finally, tactical supremacy armor ensures that killing even a single Blazer requires sustained, coordinated effort.
Spear Master Description
Among Predators, the Spear Master is recognized for its superior combat agility, mental focus, and dedication to craft. A Spear Master is one with its weapon, wielding it with a sublime grace seemingly impossible in the imperfect world of practical reality. It can keep a single enemy at bay indefinitely, send a horde of attackers hurling backwards with a single blow, or assassinate prey by surprise with a single, perfectly placed impalement attack.
Default Weapon - Spear (Combistick)
The Spear Master wields a single weapon - its spear. It is exceedingly sharp and resilient, though it does not have the armor-cleaving abilities of a wrist blade. The spear's advantage is that it can parry melee attacks, smacking aside claw and tooth as if they were hardly relevant. This only works on less skilled or smaller opponents, however - a sweeping Ravager hull blade simply cannot be stopped by a creature as small as a Predator no matter how skilled it might be.
Characteristics - Whirlwind Battle Method
When a Spear Master is surrounded by attackers, it executes its whirlwind battle method. This sweeping, spinning attack lands a blow on each enemy around the Spear Master - a blow of sufficient strength to parry most attacks and send smaller targets flying. However, it requires a fair amount of room to execute without causing collateral damage, so the Spear Master refrains from performing it when too close to more than a handful of allies.
Characteristics - Impalement Battle Method
If the Spear Master attacks an enemy while undetected through cloaking, it is able to deliver a critical strike of unmatched strength. The Spear Master relies on its extensive training to deliver a deep, impaling blow in a way that sidesteps its opponent's armor entirely. Whether through an eye slit or a soft juncture between chitinous plates, this blow often kills its opponent outright.
Characteristics - Phoenix Armor
As a rite of passage, every aspiring Spear Master must kill a Vy'drach (Phoenix) with only a spear. This winged beast lives in the infernal deserts of the Predator homeworld, surviving hear and radiation strong enough to bake most life forms. If the Predator kills the Vy'drach, its hide is fashioned into armor its nemesis wears for life. Like the Vy'drach itself, this armor is uniquely resilient to fire, energy, and radiation.
Characteristics - Conductive Recharge
A special armor-working process applied to the conductive vessels in Vy'drach scales enables the Spear Master to recharge its energy supply when struck by fire or energy-based attacks.
Characteristics - Lightning Reflexes
The Spear Master is quick enough to strike leaping Facehuggers mid-flight. This knocks the Facehugger away and often kills it in the process. While a Spear Master's reflexes are quick enough to protect it from any number of uncoordinated Facehugger attacks, they cannot protect the Spear Master from being overwhelmed by multiple Facehuggers attacking simultaneously.
Upgrade-Plasma Glaive Veteran Spear Masters acquire the deadly plasma glaive as a symbol of their status. This double-bladed weapon seethes with white hot plasma that burns through enemy armor, giving it greater penetrating power than a standard spear. The plasma glaive automatically increases its power output in proportion to the number of enemies it is striking. During the execution of a whirlwind battle method, this power output calibration can add significantly to the overall damage inflicted.
Disc Master Description
Predators gifted with exceptional intelligence and focus become Disc Masters, warriors that mentally command their discs to strike multiple targets simultaneously. When basking in the full glory of battle, a single Disc Master routinely keeps three discs aloft at once, each of which can attack three targets before returning home. While other Predators are attacking a single target, the Disc Master is attacking nine, a feat that does not go unnoticed by its fellow clan members.
Default Weapon - Disc
The Predator disc is dangerous because of its capabilities against large numbers of enemies. It has a razor sharp edge, unerring mental guidance systems, and the ability to continue flight after its initial impact. Because of these attributes, a competent Disc Master can be expected to quickly damage many targets, no matter how agile they might be. Moreover, the disc is initially thrown with sufficient force to drive back those opponents without substantial armor or large size.
Upgrade - Nanovibronic Edge
When upgraded, the Disc Master gains a set of nine nanovibronic discs. These discs possess a high-speed molecular chainsaw around their circumference that can tear through even hardened composite armors. Worse, each Disc Master is trained in the art of Ka'Ri, or "death from within". This involves embedding three nanovibronic discs in an armored opponent and activating each disc's "haywire mode". Needless to say, few enemies fare well with berserk ripping machines embedded in their internals.
AvP War features predator beam rifles and grenades.
Spoiler:
AvP Duel features a predator "bazooka".
Spoiler:
In Forever Midnight, a faction of predators has technology allowing them to mind-control sentient beings
In Three World War, a faction of predators has technology allowing them to control xenomorphs (basically, turning xenomorphs into attack dogs)
AvP Requiem features the mysterious blue liquid (which disintegrates almost anything it touches), the razor whip, the laser mines
2) I'm only sharing information some people might find interesting. The predator in the OP is NOT equipped with the "white metal ring" of death. Neither would the predator's spaceship come into play. Are you saying that the new gadgets in South China Sea are too advanced for the predators?
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2011/09/12 05:02:09
Personally, i think that even if the space marine wasnt wearing a helm, the predator would want to take the skull of such worthy prey as a trophy, and wouldnt want to blow it to fragments with a plasma cannon or rip it apart with a spear or harpoon. As depicted in the films, one of the predators biggest weaknesses are their pure arrogance, Arnie even beat one in CC (kinda)
Dammed grey knights and their rad grenades with their bloody psycotroke bombs and their millions of force weapons and ridulous rules with flippin' str 8 autocannons, vehicles that can ignore stunned and shaken everyones got psychic powers and can bloody nullify everyone else's powers... KILL 'EM ALL!!!!!!
2012/09/17 01:37:22
Subject: Re:Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)
So, you already gave the predator the advantage by making this a 1 on 1 scenario. A rank and file sergeant trained in traditional "take and hold" and "engage the enemy at the front" tactics versus an organism who's sole purpose is to find prey and kill it through skill and deceit like a hunter...who in the hell do you think would win 1 on 1?
Quibble 1 is...the fething sergeant would never be alone. He would always have his squad with him because that's just a sound tactical decision. Dark scary ruin? Better have my squad run a sweeping pattern with me as we check every nook and cranny for enemies...oh theres a predator (9 bolters rapid fire and a plasma gun for good measure). Good work team.
In the rare case that the Sarge would be alone, it would mean his entire unit was killed. Presumably fighting the predator. And, presumably, 9 of the Astartes' finest would have at least wounded the thing. Meaning that there would be more even footing when the Sarge came upon the predator. It would be a generally fresh Sgt versus a wounded and tired Predator.
You also didn't do him any favors with equipment. If the predator has a plasma caster, give the Sgt a plasma pistol to even it out, and because that technology is easily available to an Astartes Veteran. The Predator has razor sharp blades (similar to lightning claws)? Give the Sgt a power sword to even it out, and because it's easily available to a man of his rank.
The only way this could be more heavily weighted towards the predator is if you said the Marine was equipped with a stick and some throwing rocks. This is 40k, let him use the best technology available to him.
So, besides the heavy favoritism that has been injected into this scenario, I would give it to the Astartes' Sergeant. Because he is not an idiot, he would be equally equipped, and he would not be alone.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/17 14:01:03
2012/09/17 20:22:14
Subject: Re:Space Marine vs. Predator (read OP please)