Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/05/02 21:24:42
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 p.6)
This is a great idea actually! Didn't consider it. You could even place Loth in front with this method to tank all the plasma with 2++. and still be in range to unleash your Perfect Timing/ Rad Grendade/ I-1 Blind/ Rapid Fire Plasma, and Objuration Mechanicum/Vortex of Doom is quite good against the Tau. Losing Enfeeble isn't that bad against Tau, but losing Endurance might be huge though. I was planning to combine it to force a -2T Haemorrage test on the Farsight Bomb (Focused Witchfire means you can pick out that pesky Command systems suit)....
I would only recommend going for GoI against the Tau since there is no way you will get your cover saves. At least for other psychic deathstars they have to get the right psychic power and successfully cast it. Focused witchfire might help but you still have to roll that 5 and under on the psychic test to pick that crisis suit out... not exactly reliable but worth a shot.
2013/05/02 22:39:10
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 p.6)
Bonus Deathmatch #5 - Ravenstar Dark Angels vs Farsight Bomb Tau
1000 Dark Angels Ravenwing Bikers
Because I don't own a Ravenwing army (don't own any of the models) and I really wanted to try out this army, I used a Count-as Khorne army to represent the Dark Angels.
Top row (from left to right) - Librarian on bike (Karanak), Sevrin Loth (Herald of Khorne), Azrael (Skulltaker)
Bottom row - Ravenwing bikers (Flesh hounds)
Azrael
Librarian - Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex - Perfect Timing, Prescience Sevrin Loth - All Biomancy Powers (Forge World character)
10x Ravenwing Black Knights - 2x Rad Grenade Launchers
1000 Farsight-Bomb Tau
I made a slight change to this list, swapping out 1 of the Target Locks for a Drone Controller.
If anything, I'd say Tau is the underdog in this game. That is because Perfect Timing removes the one advantage that they have against Ravenwing....their 2+ cover. Now they have no saves against the ravenstar's plasma talons. To make matters worse, Rad grenade launchers from the bikers or Enfeeble from Loth will make those plasmas insta-kills against the Tau suits. Thus, you've got shots that insta-kill from the Ravenstar and which you get no save against (except for Farsight and Shadowsun). Wait, that's not all. The Ravenstar are going first and with their Scout move, they can effectively move 24". There really isn't anywhere to hide. Thus, I am going to take a huge risk for Tau this game. I am going to do something very unconventional, at least for these series of games....I am going to deepstrike Farsight's unit (who I will make the Warlord)!
The Scout move has won me so many games by catching opponents completely off guard. If I was playing Tau I'd deploy well at the back to limit the Ravenwing threat range on turn one. (which, granted, is still enormous).
Endurance is huge for RW as the FNP and It Will Not Die on 3 characters (one with 4 wounds) is very strong, also considering the other units don't have Toughness reduction tech other than Enfeeble. Relentless also allows Azrael to rapid fire his Blinding combi-plasma and still assault.
If I'd grade the Ravenstar it would be
Mobility: A-
Not quite as fast as the Seer Council, but still extremely mobile with 12" scout and 24" turboboost range. Also all bike models ignore terrain and dangerous terrain tests with Skilled Rider.
Shooting: A-
Second shootiest Deathstar after the Farsight bomb, but with more tricks. Rad Grenades reduce Toughness by 1, and Stasis can reduce your Initiative by one for I2-3 Blind tests.
Can put out up to 18 twin-linked Plasma shots, with Blind. Can get ignores cover from Diviniation. Can get Null Zone from Sevrin Loth.
Assault: A+
Probably the strongest assault Deathstar in the list, possibly even stronger than the Bloodcrushers. Blind/ Invisibility means most enemies will be fighting them at WS1, and at -1 WS -1 Initiative. Azrael taking the Furious Charge trait means the Black Knights put out 40 Str 6 Rending attacks with 7-10 Str 4 Hammer of Wrath; Azrael puts out 6 Str 7 ap 3 I5 attacks, Loth puts out 6-9 Str 5-9 Ap 2 attacks with Warp Speed and Iron Arm, and Librarian puts out 4 Str 7 Ap 3 Blind attacks on the charge. Lib can get Prescience for re-rolls. Most importantly, Hit and run at I5 means they can disengage, shoot, and charge you again.
Defense: B+
Hugely dependent on cover saves, especially rolling Invisibility for a 2+ cover save. Otherwise, 3+ with 4++ at T5 and 5+ Feel No Pain. Azrael can tank in front with a 2+, 4++ and Sevrin Loth can also tank with a 2++.
No easy access to rerolls. Probably second most squishy Deathstar after the Palstar.
Psychic: A-
Sevrin allows access to all the powers of a single discipline, or Rulebook SM powers, so the element of chance is much reduced. May pick and choose powers to suit situation: Endurance, Enfeeble and Haemorrage during the shooting turns, Warp Speed, Iron Arm and 2++ during assault, or GoI for mobility. ML3 for 5+/4+ DTW.
The only problem with the Ravenstar is that I would never field it in a normal game, because MSU Black Knights is far more effective and nobody plays with Deathstars in my meta anyway.
I deploy Shadowsun by herself only. Farsight and friends will be deepstriking.
This is a very risky tactic. If Farsight doesn't come in on Turn 2, Tau will most likely get tabled. Oh well, you know what they say....no pain, no gain.
Overview of our deployment.
Dark Angels then scout forwards 12" (6" for the guys on foot).
Ravenstar advances. Loth casts Iron Arm on himself (T7 currently) and Endurance on the unit. He fails to cast 2++ Invuln on himself but it won't really matter this turn.
Bikers then turbo-boost another 12".
There will be no place to hide.
Tau 1
Shadowsun comes out to play. She fires both her fusion guns at the bikers but they make their 4++ thanks to Azrael.
Shadowsun then jumps away. I make a little mistake here as I roll 3D6" for her assault jump. However, since she isn't the Warlord in this game, her jump move should only be 2D6" like normal. In any case, it wouldn't really matter. She won't make it past next turn.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Dark Angels 2
Angels cast their psychic powers and go after Shadowsun.
She never really stood a chance.
VP's - Ravenstar: 135, Tau: 0
Tau 2
Fortunately for me, Farsight comes in. What can I say? I like to live on the edge, take a ride on the wild side, yadda yadda yadda....
The trick is to stay out of LOS of his psykers so they can't cast their nasty powers on me.
Even with Endurance on, I blow away all the bikers that my suits/drones could see, which is 6 plasma bikers.
Now I jump away. Fortunately for me, he's only got 2 plasma talons left and he's going to have to go through a bunch of gun drones before he starts insta-killing my suits.
VP's - Ravenstar: 135, Tau: 252
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Dark Angels 3
Bikers advance after casting their psychic powers.
1 Rad Launcher reduces Tau toughness to 3 and shooting kills off 7 drones.
Bikers are now about 8-9" away. Can they make it into assault? If they lose even 1 guy to Overwatch, you are looking at an 11-12" charge!
Fortunately for the angels, Tau fails to kill even 1 guy with Overwatch, thanks to 2 passed FNP saves from Endurance! Bikers make it into combat.
Farsight challenges the librarian, who accepts. They both whiff against each other.
Bikers then kill 4 drones and in return, the suits kill 2 bikers.
Crap! I am not Stubborn this turn! The fate of the Tau hinges on this Morale test on LD 8. Fail and they will probably get run down. Pass and they can Hit & Run out of combat and finish off the Angels with shooting.
Fortunately for Tau, they pass Morale.
However, I then roll a for my Hit & Stay! Doh!!!
VP's - Ravenstar: 267, Tau: 336
Tau 3
The Angels pile-in. This turn, the Tau become Stubborn.
Librarian and Farsight whiff against each other once again.
Azrael and Loth kill 1 normal suit and put 1W on the 2+ bodyguard (with Iridium Armor). The Tau kills the last 2 bikers.
VP's - Ravenstar: 380, Tau: 420
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Dark Angels 4
Only the characters remain for Dark Angels. This turn, Loth becomes S5/T5. He also casts Endurance on the unit.
Disaster for Tau! They manage to take off 1W from Azrael. Librarian, on the other hand, force weapons Farsight to death. The other characters kill another 2 suits, including the Neuroweb bodyguard.
Now with Farsight gone, I am taking my Hit & Run initiative tests on I2 from the suits. The Tau fail to get away, though they do manage to pass morale.
That 1 failed Hit & Run attempt really killed Tau's chances for a victory in this game. Had they made it out of combat, their chances of winning was high. Fail and they are going to lose to force weapons. My risky deepstrike for Tau paid off. However, DA caught a couple of big breaks in this game. The first was to make it into combat and not lose 1 single guy to Tau's Overwatch. The second was when Tau failed to get out of combat.
Overall, if the Ravenstar can get the right powers (i.e. Perfect Timing), then they can overwhelm the Tau. However, fail to get the right power and IMO they are looking at a truly uphill battle. The Farsight Bomb has the potential to cripple the Ravenstar with just 1 turn of shooting.
Warlord Trait: Enemy uses lowest LD within 12" of Warlord
Grand Strategy: Scout
1000 Pinkstar Daemons
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - ?, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire
In their first matchup, daemons convincingly trounced the knights by blocking their path and then assaulting them with the Lord of Change. Can they do it again? I feel that the paladinstar will be the underdog in this matchup. If the Grimoire goes off, it's going to be bad news for the knights. If not, then the knights have a decent chance of taking down the daemons. So that is a 2/3 chance that things will bad for the knights and a 1/3 chance that it will go well for them.
Daemons cast their psychic powers including Forewarning on the LoC. However, Grimoire fails on the LoC. They also cast Misfortune on the grey knights, who promptly Deny both times.
Horrors move slightly. LoC hides behind terrain this turn and bides his time.
Herald drops off the Portaglyph. It fails to produce any troops this turn.
I don't believe the Warp Storm does anything of note.
The Portaglyph Herald fails to cast Flickering Fire and Perils.
Shooting does only 2W on damage on 2 separate models. Paladins deny shooting from the horrors.
I believe they fail their Warpflame test but fail to take any damage (or perhaps one of the wounds was from the Warpflame....don't quite remember).
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 55, Grey Knights: 75
Grey Knights 1
Coteaz casts both psychic powers. The knights then advance.
However, instead of shooting the horrors, they opt to assault the Portaglyph instead.
They don't want a repeat of last game, when they ignored the Portaglyph and was blocked off by the spawned troops.
They blow up the Portaglyph. The Grandmaster takes 1W in the explosion.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 55, Grey Knights: 75
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 2
This turn, the Portaglyph Herald dies while trying to cast Prescience. The Grimoire Herald successfully casts Forewarning on the unit but takes 1W to Perils in the process.
However, daemons do manage to cast Misfortune on the paladins and the Grimoire goes off on the horrors for re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
Horrors move back as far as possible.
The LoC swoops on top of impassable terrain. BTW, he has Precognition on.
Shooting is devastating this turn as everyone manages to cast Flickering Fire successfully (paladins failed to Deny a single one). The LoC insta-gibs 1 paladin with his Hellfire Gaze and Flickering Fire from all kill another 3 paladins.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 268, Grey Knights: 225
Grey Knights 2
Paladins continue to advance.
It would be fruitless to shoot at the horrors with re-rollable 2++'s so they fire at the LoC instead. They put 2W on him.
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Pinkstar 3
Prescience on the horrors. Everything else on the LoC, including the Grimoire and Forewarning. Paladins get Misfortuned.
The LoC goes on the offensive.
Daemons fire everything at the grey knights.
Paladin saves are horrible! I've never seen so many failed 2+ saves in my life (courtesy of Misfortune)!
There is no need for assault as the paladinstar gets tabled from shooting!
That was just horrible rolling for the paladins. Of course Misfortune played a part in it, but still, maybe the paladinstar does need an Apothecary. I'm not sure what else they could have done in this game. Even had they not died to daemon shooting, they probably would have been wiped out by the LoC in assault. I think daemons are proving to be quite a tough matchup for the paladins. Then again, I honestly feel that the Pinkstar (along with the LoC) is one of the toughest deathstars in the game today, with their only weakness being Runes of Warding eldar.....but we all know that's not going to last for too long.
Tomb King issued a challenge between a wraithguard Tau/Eldar deathstar combo against Draigowing. Since there are a lot of readers interested in this deathstar, I decided to set up a battle with them.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
Coteaz - Precognition, Prescience
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
This is actually a bad matchup for the Grey Knights. The power they needed in this game is either Misfortune, Perfect Timing or Forewarning. They got none of them, which means paladin shooting is basically neutered by re-rollable 2+ cover from the Wraith Bomb. On the other hand, taudar shooting is extremely deadly to an elite deathstar like the grey knights, who have poor invuln's and no cover from their shooting (Draigo would have probably been much better against this type of army). I doubt the knights will seriously hurt taudar with their shooting. Their best chance is to assault taudar, though they just may have to weather 2 turns of shooting plus Overwatch in order to do so....and then taudar can still get out of combat with Hit & Run.
Note: I played this game such that the Tau characters can benefit from Guide since this is actually still an eldar unit (the wraithguards). If I am wrong, please let the readers know why this is so (or isn't so) and consider this a houserule then. Thanks.
Overview of our deployment. GK's deploy right on their deployment line. Taudar makes sure to deploy 30"+ from the knights (just outside their shooting range).
No psychic powers cast. Grey knights move up and then run, making sure to stay more than 18" away from the wraithguards (but within their own shooting range).
Taudar 1
Taudar casts Fortune and Guide and then move up.
Dual plasmas from the Tau Commander finish off 1 paladin, who fails both of his Invuln's.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 0, Taudar: 55
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Coteaz Perils and fails to cast Prescience.
The knights shuffle around, making sure to stay more than 18" from the wraiths.
Shooting fails to do anything. The knights cause about 15 wounds but taudar makes all their re-rollable 2+ cover saves.
Taudar 2
Wraithstar advance yet again after casting all their psychic powers.
Only Shadowsun's fusions and the Commander's plasmas are in range. They insta-kill another paladin and put 1W on a hammerdin.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 0, Taudar: 138
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 3
This time, Prescience goes off. The paladins back up some more.
Their shooting once again is ineffective (almost 20 wounds) as Taudar makes every single 2+ save thanks to Fortune.
Taudar 3
Eldrad actually Perils while casting one of his psychic powers. It does go off but Eldrad would fail his Ghosthelm save.
Taudar advance. What irony. The shooty deathstar advances while the assaulty deathstar retreats.
The 2 Tau characters shoot down another 2 paladins!!!
This is getting ridiculous. Paladins are losing this war of attrition BIG time. The entire paladinstar can do nothing to the wraithstar over 2 turns of shooting. Meanwhile, just 2 characters from the wraithstar shooting has already killed 4 paladins!
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 0, Taudar: 220
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 4
Grey Knights have finally had enough. Coteaz successfully casts Prescience once again and the knights finally advance.
The the 3rd straight turn, the knights fail to shoot down a single taudar.
Grey knights then declare a charge. Taudar shoots down the banner paladin with Overwatch. They now need to make an 8" charge....
....which, fortunately for the knights, they manage to do.
Coteaz and paladins manage to successfully cast Hammerhand whereas the Grandmaster fails and Perils.
No challenges.
Paladins actually roll poorly on their saves and lose 2 guys. However, they would kill 7 wraithguards and both of Shadowsun's shield drones (due to Look-Out-Sirs!).
Now that's what I am talking about.
However, taudar would Hit-&-Run out of combat.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 285, Taudar: 403
Taudar 4
Eldrad would Perils a 2nd time (1W remaining) but manages to cast all 3 powers successfully, including Doom on the grey knights.
The Tau characters would split up from the eldar. Divide and conquer.
Shooting kills everyone. Only the Grandmaster is left.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 285, Taudar: 765
Turn 5
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 5
Last chance for a comeback. The Grandmaster goes after Eldar.
His shooting would fail to do anything.
He then charges and manages to survive Eldar Overwatch. The spiritseer issues a challenge to minimize the damage. Eldar has got this game in the bag as long as they don't get wiped out.
The Grandmaster wins that challenge.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 316, Taudar: 765
Taudar 5
Taudar movement.
Eldrad issues a challenge again to try to minimize the damage, but the Grandmaster strikes him down even with Fortune on.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 526, Taudar: 765
I then roll to see if the game continues and it does not. Holy cats!!! First time one of these matches didn't end in a tabling!!!
I can't believe that after 3 turns of shooting, the paladins could not even get a single kill! For the grey knights, I held off on assaulting initially because I wanted to see just how resilient the wraithstar was. That's just how crazy and broken re-rollable 2+'s are. You just can't beat them with shooting unless you can get powers like Misfortune or Perfect Timing. From decimating seer councils with just 1 turn of shooting (twice!) to doing jack against the wraith bomb with 3 turns of shooting....that's just crazy!
As I suspected, if the paladins can engage the wraithstar, then they can do some major damage. Paladins were fortunate to be to make it into combat and to avoid the wraithguard shooting. Just the 2 tau characters alone was able to take out 4 paladins. Imagine what the entire unit could have done had they all been able to shoot.
Despite the Wraith Bomb dominating the paladins this game, I still don't see them as a viable deathstar. They actually match up well against the grey knights but I just don't see them as having what it takes to take on the other 3 deathstars - the Pinkstar, the Farsight Bomb and the Seer Council.
This message was edited 24 times. Last update was at 2013/05/12 23:40:36
MarkyMark wrote: As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
ok.....but then what is the point of turbo boosting 6"? you arent getting any cover saves vs the farsight deathstar......
furthermore moving 6" a turn will never get you into combat with the farsight bomb.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/02 22:44:52
MarkyMark wrote: As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.
ok.....but then what is the point of turbo boosting 6"? you arent getting any cover saves vs the farsight deathstar......
furthermore moving 6" a turn will never get you into combat with the farsight bomb.
you don't run the infantry, they stay put in shooting phase and bikes turbo boost but the back ones lag behind to keep the infantry in coherency.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
Thanks jy2 I totally missed it. It's is such a great thread, sometimes to get to the reports I skip some of te comments...I think you're right I guess I was just grasping at straws.
Tyranids are definitely a synergistic army and can't rely on a single unit to pull all the weight. Thanks for the response!
2013/05/03 01:48:56
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4)
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
Thanks jy2 I totally missed it. It's is such a great thread, sometimes to get to the reports I skip some of te comments...I think you're right I guess I was just grasping at straws.
Tyranids are definitely a synergistic army and can't rely on a single unit to pull all the weight. Thanks for the response!
Of course, if it were an "Arena of Death" style Deathstar tournament, where each unit begins in CC, no one has the charge advantage, etc., the Swarmlord, TG + Prime unit is one of the best.
I have always liked a 3 pack of Carnifexes with TL devourers, with a pair of Primes armed with deathspitters, whips and swords. Give everything adrenal glands and toxin sacs, and LOS to your heart's content. Points should be in the 800 to 850 range, a little more if bioplasma is taken.
What's that, 36 tl s6 shots, 6 s5 bs4 shots, two instant death ignores armour high initiative cc weapons, 3 I10 s9 HOW hits, and 15 S10 (on the charge) ap2 low initiative hits.
I think it'd be pretty effective, but rerollable saves might still beat it. It's quite the beatstick, if a bit slow.
Man! What a day. I got 4 games in all in 1 single day! Yes, you read that right....4 games in 1 day!!!
Here's a preview of the battle reports coming up:
Game #4 - Seer Council Deldar vs Paladinstar Grey Knights
First game of the day was the Seer Council versus the 0-2 Paladins. The paladins lost to both the Pinkstar daemons and Farsight Tau. Can they prevent a shut-out in what may be the greatest upset in the tournament?
Game #5 - Seer Council Deldar vs Pinkstar Daemon
Then it was the Seer Council against the 1-1 Tzeentch daemons. Daemons did well, losing to Tau and beating the grey knights, but have they hit their kryptonite in the Seer Council? Just Runes of Warding alone is enough to seriously screw with the daemon army.
Game #6 - Seer Council Deldar vs Farsight Tau
Finally, we have the game clincher for the 2-0 Tau. This game would decide whether Tau wins it all or not, after beating both the grey knights and daemons. Can the Seer Council stop them in their tracks? Is this a bad matchup for Tau? We shall see.....
Finally, we have....
Game #7 - Mystery Bonus Match
So what other deathstar did we play today? Was it a rematch or was it an entirely new deathstar. Find out in a couple of days.
Man, I've got a lot of reports to write.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 05:36:03
Loving all the battle reports, but i feel the original draigo list was better as you need the tank in the front to survive and also draigo may have stood a chance vs the LOC.
This would be my take on the draigo deathstar as its main weakness is ap2 spam like plasma and also you still get the prescience, also the warding staves thrown in for more survivability.
2013/05/03 15:01:24
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 p.6)
First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
2013/05/03 15:14:54
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 p.6)
Salacious Greed wrote: First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
This idea was borne from using the pinkstar/horrorbomb. The LoC was added in to enable the use of more expensive deathstars.
2. Luck is a factor in all games, if you want to mathhammer averages in anyone can do that, it doesnt need a entry in bat reps (more tactics). There is no acutal measurement of a deathstar as you pointed out it is down to the general and to the opponent on how he counters any deathstar, that is a impossible to answer question and something that cannot be attained in a bat rep. This isnt (I think, excuse for me for putting words in your mouth Jy2) a test to see make each deathstar a paper rock scissors (i,e Tau ALWAYS beats paladins, Pinkstar Always beats palandins etc) it is a interesting read up on Jy2's tactics and experince of deathstars and other peoples.
Bat Reps really is not the place for math hammer as there are real life people rolling dice here.
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2013/05/03 15:25:42
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 p.6)
Some math hammer would be cool, but I think jy2 already has his work cut out for him by playing all these games and writing up the battle reports. Asking for some math hammer on top of all that is a bit demanding.
That's where I stand
I RIDE FOR DOOMTHUMBS!
2013/05/03 15:51:02
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 p.6)
Salacious Greed wrote: First: Let me say, great games so far, been interesting to see them play out.
Second: A few questions though on your methodology.
1. You keep pointing out that instead of DeathStars, some people are bringing up Army lists, which I agree. But in your GK vs PinkStar, you didn't really run the PinkStar as a Star. If it was a DS, wouldn't the LOC have to be IN the DS, otherwise you're running a mini-army by not having it as part of the Star. Just trying to parse what we effectively consider a DS, and what's not.
2. While this is a great thread, and you are producing great matchups, you're really only providing one-offs for us (the readers), and not really showing which DS is better. It would be much more boring, but I think to show which DS is statistically the best, you'd have to approximate average rolls (3.5 for 1d6[being a 3 or 4 on a rotating basis], a 7 for 2d6, 10.5 for 3d6, etc.). You're really incorporating the luck factor into these matchups, which you've pointed out multiple times to likely determining the winner. Also, I think knowledge of using the DS and generalship are also in play here, and thus not giving a true measure of the actual DS.
I'm just asking, as I see so many people throwing so many hats into the ring, and want to know where the majority stands. Thanks! Great stuff as always JY2.
Those are some very good questions. Let me address them as best I can.
1. It's not a pure deathstar vs deathstar as there are discrepencies in points between them. Draigowing runs in at almost 1K, but many of the other deathstars run much less. Examples include the Pinkstar, the Dark Harliestar, Dark Eldar Beastmasters, etc. These deathstars are too big to be considered a mini-star (about 500-pts) but not big enough to be considered a true deathstar (1K). Thus, in order to make it as fair as possible, I allowed complementary units so that the units can get up to 1K. Otherwise, you bring in allegations that the matches aren't fair...."well, naturally the 700-pt pinkstar should lose to other deathstars, they're 300-pts less! It was never a fair battle. Etc." And it isn't an army list as it doesn't consist of a legal army composition (though it does have to obey legal FOC compositions). In a sense, you can kind of look at the LoC as a complementary unit to the Pinkstar in a way that the Land Raider Spartan is a complementary unit to the hamminator deathstar. They're both separate units.
2. It would be much more boring if this was just a mathhammer/theoryhammer thread. It would also be inaccurate as well. No amount of theoryhammer can let you know which deathstar is best. Because theoryhammer does not and cannot take into consideration tactics, terrain and all the random variables in a game. Just some of the stuff theoryhammer will not account for:
- Terrain.
- Tactics. How will the grey knights deal with the plasma-heavy Tau? How can Tau and the Pinkstar deal with the mobility of the Seer Council? How can you avoid some of the psychic powers such as Doom, Misfortune, Enfeeble, etc.? How would you play/deploy if you were going 2nd? Tactics is a huge portion of the game that theoryhammer will never be able to account for.
- What psychic powers or daemonic rewards you get. Without Forewarning, there will be no re-rollable 2++ for daemons. Powers such as Misfortune and Invisibility makes a huge difference in a game if the army can get it. So do gifts such as 4+ FNP, +1W or re-roll Invuln's. Then you've got Iron Arm from Biomancy. Or what about Hallucination on the paladins? All these powers and gifts really change the outcome of the game.
- Runes of Warding. You can't see on paper how RoW will affect psychic armies - how many models it will kill and more importantly, how it affects whether you use psychic powers or not.
- Movement. The Movement phases is one of the most important phases of the game....and yet it can't be accounted for on paper.
- Failed leaderships.
- Precision shots/strikes to target VIP models in a unit.
- The success/failure and impact of Hit & Run.
- Miscellaneous factors such as the Grimoire or the Warp Storm table. Or how if you roll snake-eyes for Daemonic Instability (it did happen!), the entire unit comes back from the dead (or dies if you roll box-cars).
Luck will always be a part of the game as this is a dice game. Yes, these games may be "one-offs". Then again, so is every person who has ever won a tournament before. So is every person who has ever played a game before. Luck is as much a part of this game as anything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 15:53:42
Redbeard wrote: I agree with jy2's interpretation of standard, although of course, there's also the second HQ in all cases. I prefer a libby, some like coteaz, but either one pushes the value over 1k.
I'm not sure that the super-tooled up GM is an adequate fill-in for draigo though, draigo adds too much synergy, being EW with 3++. He's the guy you need to go toe-to-toe with the LoC in that matchup.
In almost all situations I've seen, there's also a reinforced-aegis dread tagging along, who helps out with stopping silly pink shooting too, but that's really exceeding the point limit...
Both Draigowing builds are good. Where they differ is who they are good against. Each Draigowing build matches up better to particular army builds. I just prefer the more shooty Draigowing buiild over the more rugged and durable one.
Yeah, most of these units will function much differently when they have the rest of the army to support them. That's why it is a whole different ballgame in an army-vs-army battle as opposed to deathstars in a vacuum. These battles are in no ways meant to show how good a deathstar "army" is. Rather, it is just a fun exercise to see how each deathstar can perform against each other independently of the rest of the army.
Pyriel- wrote: The apot is missing. In an environment with tons of plasma shots I´d say the apot is pretty much a must have but yes, gw priced him far, far to high to be worth taking "generally".
Also if possible a libby is a far better choice for the pallies rather then draigo.
Here's the reason why I (and I am assuming many of the good players) don't normally run the Apoc. And I will explain it in the context of a Draigowing army and not just the deathstar.
The way you normally beat a Draigowing army (actually, any deathstar army) is by going after the supporting units. You do this because it is just an inefficient use of resources to try to kill the deathstar itself (not that armies can't do it). As the Draigowing player, you want your opponent to focus on your deathstar because they can survive damage much, much better than the rest of the army. However, the harder you make it to kill them, the more you are discouraging them to go after your deathstar. I want you to shoot at my deathstar, but now if you have to go through 2+ models with 2W each and on top of that, 5+ FNP, most likely you will just go after easier prey. That is why I don't add Apothecaries of Grenade-caddy Techmarines to my GK units. Moreover, the more you put into your deathstar means the easier it is to kill the rest of the army. What you need are better supporting units in a Draigowing army, not a better deathstar.
And that is the reason why Apoc's aren't standard in a Draigowing army. While they make the deathstar better, they actually make the army worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skyfi wrote: Less sensible responses to detractors, and more bat reps!
*cracks whip*
some of us are trying to get through the work day here... and its FRIDAY!!
Lol. Got to head out now, but will be back this afternoon to work on reports. Responding to some of the comments actually takes a lot of time BR-writing time. Lol.
And I promise you that you will see 2 battles out today.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Game #4 posted on p. 6.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 23:12:56
That's what you are bound to get though, when so many of the deathstars rely on psychic powers to survive/inflict maximum damage. A lot more swing than there otherwise would be
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2013/05/04 01:14:27
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 & #4 p.6)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Well, Fortune is literally the only thing keeping the Seer Council useful/relevant.
Without it, they're terribad.
+1
As much as I hate it when people call out flukes.... this was a fluke. I don't think the Deldar Council has a great chance against draigowing, but it shouldn't be a one sided route like this. Coteaz getting off misfortune through warding and a 4+ DtW on top of a 5" assault move by the council is a very lopsided turn of dice. Like I said, I don't expect them to win this fight handily, but that wasn't even a fight.
As far as Tau go, I think if Deldar get in combat they have a very good chance of winning. Baron's I 7 (after enhance) vs Farsights I5 means Tau can't rely on H&R. One turn of lost shooting is going to hurt them bad. Against Pinkstar.....turbo boost around and let RoW kill the entire army. Assuming they don't just ignore it and murder the entire council in one turn of shooting
As to the other deathstars: who cares? Deldar or GTFO.
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
2013/05/04 04:06:02
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis/Game #1 p.4, Game #2 p.5, Game #3 & #4 p.6)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Well, Fortune is literally the only thing keeping the Seer Council useful/relevant.
Without it, they're terribad.
+1
As much as I hate it when people call out flukes.... this was a fluke. I don't think the Deldar Council has a great chance against draigowing, but it shouldn't be a one sided route like this. Coteaz getting off misfortune through warding and a 4+ DtW on top of a 5" assault move by the council is a very lopsided turn of dice. Like I said, I don't expect them to win this fight handily, but that wasn't even a fight.
As far as Tau go, I think if Deldar get in combat they have a very good chance of winning. Baron's I 7 (after enhance) vs Farsights I5 means Tau can't rely on H&R. One turn of lost shooting is going to hurt them bad. Against Pinkstar.....turbo boost around and let RoW kill the entire army. Assuming they don't just ignore it and murder the entire council in one turn of shooting
As to the other deathstars: who cares? Deldar or GTFO.
the barons iniative has nothing to do with hit and run, the test is based on their iniative, going to go double check....
tau should be able to get two turns of shooting before assault (one at max range and one at rapid fire) then they hit and run out and shoot em again!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/04 04:35:18
@jy2- the problem with quantifying DS at an arbitrary number like 1000 pts and saying that cheaper DS need to pick up the slack really undermines what a true DS is. I mean think about it, if a DE beast pack or a pinkstar can be valid and deadly at under 700 points, then in some regards they are a more efficient and useful DS. By making an unnaturally high ceiling for some races you completely negate what makes some armies DS awesome.
Now that said, I just think that the efficiency factor needs to be raised but I don't think that you can mitigate it while having an true unbiased showdown. Either you set the cost to high for some races or too low for others. I just wanted to point this factor out.
I do think it would be nice to maybe in the post game thoughts or maybe bracketed int the reports (even later on when your done) to add in the statistical mean so players can see where luck skewed results.
Also good job with the write ups and thanks for the entertainment! My suggestions are only intended to improve your data!
Could try some abhuman fun:
Azreal, Ezekial, Yarrick, 10* Ogryns
Get Mind Worm and 2 rolls on Divination, hope for something useful & Prescience. Put Yarrick up front to re-roll successful wounds on majority T5. LOS to either the guys with 2+ or 4++ on the W3 ogryns.
Very slow and HQ heavy but should do something if they get into range.
for my Hit & Stay! Doh!!! 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
My Eldar exodite Dakka Blog 
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
Color Scheme