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Hello,

I've been trying to make a competitive ork list in 5th edition and I've had some success. However, I am looking to buy myself a mean nobz squad and warboss, so I've got a few questions. I don't want nob bikers so I think I'll run 10 nobz in a battlewagon, so all my questions will pertain to this kind of nobz. This is a squad that I'll field in full for 2500, 2250, and maybe even 2000 point games, and maybe drop it down to 6-7 nobs for 1500 or 1750. I'll fit my questions into three parts, so feel free to comment on whichever questions you want, any advice will be appreciated!

1) What would be the ideal nob unit? I recognize the opportunity to abuse the wound allocation rules, so I'd like to make it so every nob is armed differently, or maybe at least there are 5-6 different groups to put wounds in. Is it worth it to make every nob unique by throwing a couple bosspoles or ammo runts around? The nob squad I am thinking of where every model is unique is something like this:

(all with 'eavy armor and cybork bodies)
-painboy with grot orderly
-power klaw and waaagh banner
-power klaw and bosspole
-power klaw
-big choppa and bosspole
-big choppa
-slugga, choppa and bosspole
-slugga and choppa
-kombi skorcha
-kombi rokkit and ammo runt

This unit is around 450 points, will it be worth it? Is it worth it to have 3 power klaws or would 2 be enough? I was thinking if I had 3 power klaws in the nob squad, I might just give the warboss a big choppa, that way its harder for someone in combat to pick off a power klaw by singling out my warboss. Maybe this will make the warboss a lower target priority. Is this a good idea or should I just give the warboss a power klaw?

2) How should this unit be used effectively on the table? Whats the best way to get the most 'urt out of this unit? Should I zoom their battlewagon towards the enemy as fast as possible and get them stuck in as soon as possible? If that's the case, should I just give them a trukk? Should I be more conservative with them since they are a scoring unit? What units should I avoid? I recognize the fact that power fists, especially terminator squads, would drop nobz like flies in close combat, so I guess that's something to avoid. I also know that they're going to want to stay away from things like demolisher cannons, and hopefully the rest of my army can take those out before they do some real damage to my nobz.

3) Any suggestions on how to make my nobz look great? The plastic nob box set is fantastic and I will definitely use them, but I want to spice them up somehow. I was thinking of giving all of them black ork heads. I found some cool gas mask heads for regular orks that I use for my 'ard boyz, anything on the internet along those lines for nobz? Also, are cybork bodies something that need to be WYSIWYG? Does every ork need to have some sort or cybork looking thing or can it be assumed that they have cybork implants and stuff like that?

Sorry for the very long post, but maybe this post can become a thread where people can just discuss ork nobz. Thanks in advance!
-Jeff

Copying something I wrote elsewhere to here.

--------------------------------------------
If you are going to use a nob unit, here's the "perfect solution" that I've come up with: Its as few points as possible while optimizing effectiveness:
1. Pain Boy
2. Waaaugh! Banner
3. Bosspole
4. Powerklaw
5. Powerklaw + Ammo runt
6. Powerklaw + Kombi-Skorcha
7. Big Choppa
8. Big choppa + Ammo Runt
9. Big Choppa + Kombi-skorcha
10. Normal Nob

Give them all 'Eavy armor, and they have a 4+ armor and 4+ Feel no pain. However, I would urge you to drop cybork bodies. I would posit that an intelligent ork player will pretty much never be in a situation to *need* a 5+ invulnerable save...here's why. Your nobs start in a battlewagon and need no saves. As they trundle and bounce their way up the field, they're in an AV14 front armor vehicle, which is getting 4+ cover saves from the Big Mek with the KFF who is in 6", and the sides of the battlewagon are protected by other battlewagons or trukks, meaning that there are no side armor shots against you. If you work out a lascannon shot; between the rolls to hit, glance/penetrate, cover save, damage chart....the chances of a lascannon shot meaningfully affecting you are less than 3%. Melta doesn't really matter. On Turn2+, you have a 27" assault range, and if someone meltas you, you're in range to assault anyway. So your Nobs are in a vehicle until it either A.) gets blown up or B.) You voluntarily get out to assault.

If A Happens, you get 4+ armor saves. The battlewagon either gets wrecked or exploded. If its exploded you're in 4+ cover from the wreckage and crater, and if its destroyed, you can deploy behind and around it to give yourself either 4+ cover or denied visibility. Either way, you have at worst a 4+ save. Beyond that, as you work to get into close combat you can either move from cover to cover, or dump someone less important out of their vehicle and put the nobs into it. You STILL have no need of a 5+ invulnerable save.

That just leaves close combat. With a 27" assault range, YOU decide what to assault. Since you have Ghazghkull and burnas to deal with really scary things that ignore armor saves, you can spend your Nobs wisely on MEQs and things without massed powerweapons. Just no reason to take it on this unit in a mechanized list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to ignore the burna and Ghazghkull part if you don't plan on using them. Nonetheless, my arguments against using cybork bodies stands.

I definitely think you should shy away from rokkits. If you take them, you're going to be tempted to use them against vehicles, meaning you'd have to follow it up with an assault from your nobs, meaning you've wasted the unit. Those kombi-skorchas on the other hand can be deployed at the front of your disembarking ork unit, and those can lead the charge into an enemy....possibly killing a couple of people who are GOING to strike at the same initiative or higher than yours. Besides - those kombi-skorchas give you an extra answer against tyranid players who bring genestealer / gaunt swarms; you've got an extra two flamer templates to deal with them (not to mention other ork armies).

*EDIT* To answer your other questions:

2) How should this unit be used effectively on the table?

Keep them away from terminators and genestealers, MCs...anything that gets to go first and hurt you. You want to be attacking MEQs with these. Multi-assaulting MEQ units even if you can get away with it. Also, give their battlewagon a boarding plank and you suddenly have a mobile powerklaw against vehicles. Toss a grabbin' klaw on it and you have a mobile powerklaw that has a 50% chance every turn of auto-hitting your target vehicle.

3) Any suggestions on how to make my nobz look great?

Buy a fantasy box of orks - the ones that come with the big banner? Turn that into your Waaaugh! banner. Alternatively, find an old metal box of nobs, or someone with the Waaaugh! banner from the metal box of nobs on e-bay or here on the forums and get it. I have no idea why the plastic nobs don't ship with a Waaaugh! banner, its incredibly dumb on GW's part. Farking important piece of wargear there. On the flipside, they *did* give us kombi-rokkits and kombi-flamers. These models *DO* absolutely MUST be WYSIWYG. Convert them appropriately. I used magnets for mine (check the gallery) so that I can swap around arms depending on the weapons and wargear I'm taking with nobs for a given fight. After a few games, you will memorize the nobs you have, and when you're allocating wounds, you're going to go down the line without having to point to each of your nobs....and they need to be WYSIWYG to back up what you're doing. Does that make sense?

If you do 5 wounds to my nob squad (see above) I'm going to pick up five dice and without looking at my nob squad, I'm going to do this:

"Bosspole" *roll dice*
"Normal nob" *roll dice*
"Big choppa" *roll dice*
"Big choppa with an ammo runt" *roll dice*
"Big Choppa with a kombi-skorcha" *roll dice*

I've just called out five wound groups in the unit, allocated wounds for each of them, and rolled their dice without having to pause the game to sort out which wound groups are taking wounds. And there are 10 wound groups in that unit. I avoid wounds on painboy, Waaaugh! banner, and powerklaws where possible.

Also, are cybork bodies something that need to be WYSIWYG?

No. If you decide to use it, identify it in your list and point it out to your opponent, but this isn't distinguishing wargear that can be confused with other wargear (such as making sure you identify the difference between a powerklaw+kombi-skorcha nob versus a big-choppa+kombi-skorcha nob.

OP - did you do any of this?

So what about using an 7 big choppa squad 2 PKs with painboy and 'eavy armour? How well does this outfit work?

Well, you can do it anyway you want.


But 7 big choppas are passing up some of the utility that you can make with a nob squad. ><

Dashofpepper wrote:But 7 big choppas are passing up some of the utility that you can make with a nob squad. ><

Not to mention not making you any more effective against T4 on the charge and actually reducing their effectiveness vs. T3 vs. a slugga/choppa nob.

I would like to point out that just because you CAN mix up equipment in such a way to allocate wounds like crazy, that doesn't mean you SHOULD. Yes, it's totally legal to do so, but I think the prevailing wisdom is that doing so intentionally is fairly obnoxious.

My 10-Nob unit uses Heavy Armour on all of them, a Waaagh! Banner, three Big Choppas, and a Painboy, for a total of four wound groups. It's expensive, but when put in a Trukk to escort my PK Warboss, they make for quite the brutal blunt instrument with substantial staying power. Also, don't overlook the fact that even though Big Choppas aren't as good as Klaws, S7 charges can still make a big difference when hitting at Initiative 4 instead of 1.

alanedomain wrote:I would like to point out that just because you CAN mix up equipment in such a way to allocate wounds like crazy, that doesn't mean you SHOULD. Yes, it's totally legal to do so, but I think the prevailing wisdom is that doing so intentionally is fairly obnoxious.

My 10-Nob unit uses Heavy Armour on all of them, a Waaagh! Banner, three Big Choppas, and a Painboy, for a total of four wound groups. It's expensive, but when put in a Trukk to escort my PK Warboss, they make for quite the brutal blunt instrument with substantial staying power. Also, don't overlook the fact that even though Big Choppas aren't as good as Klaws, S7 charges can still make a big difference when hitting at Initiative 4 instead of 1.

A nob unit without any powerklaws....I cannot support. ><

alanedomain wrote:I would like to point out that just because you CAN mix up equipment in such a way to allocate wounds like crazy, that doesn't mean you SHOULD. Yes, it's totally legal to do so, but I think the prevailing wisdom is that doing so intentionally is fairly obnoxious.

There is a large multi-paragraph section in the BRB specifically for describing wound allocation on multiwound models with differing stats or wargear.

Nobz are multiwound models (they're even used as the example for multiwound model allocation, so it's not like the writers didn't know) and they quite specifically have the ability to individually purchase different wargear.

I can't fathom how anyone could find it 'obnoxious' to play them that way when it is so obviously both allowed and intended under the ruleset.

Especially when you pay out the ass for the privilege of fielding nobz... on the order of 500+ points, the cost of a small army, for a decent squad in a wagon. If you don't want to spend ~20pts to make your 380pt squad ignore the first 10 unsaved wounds it takes in terms of effectiveness just because you think it's powerful, I guess that's your call.

Here is the Nob List from my Speadsheet:

470 points

Nob

Slugga
Choppa
Cybork Body

Nob

Slugga
Big Choppa
Cybork Body

Nob

Shoota
Shoota/Skorcha
Choppa
Cybork Body

Nob

Shoota
Shoota/Skorcha
Big Choppa
Cybork Body

Nob

Slugga
Power Klaw
Cybork Body

Nob

Twin Shoota
Power Klaw
Cybork Body

Nob

Shoota
Shoota/Skorcha
Power Klaw
Cybork Body

Nob

Shoota
Shoota/Skorcha
Power Klaw
Bosspole
Cybork Body

Nob

Shoota
Shoota/Skorcha
Power Klaw
Waaagh Banner
Cybork Body

Painboy

Urty Syringe
Dok's Tools
Cybork Body
Grot Orderly

They go in a DeffRolla BW next to my Big Mek with Burna and Burna Mob in another DeffRolla BW.

I love Skorchas so I use them.

I always use Cyborks and never use Eavy Armor. I think it's a waste with having Cyborks. Inv save is more useful the way I play. To model Cyborks I used the old Space Marine Tech Harness as most of my PK's and use telephone wire with the copper ends exposed and wrap it around limbs and such. Also the old Eavy Weapons heads with the targeters work well.

I print the above list out on a seperate page. They are in the exact order I want them to be wounded/removed based on game play value. Just like Dashofpepper, roll down the list. "The list is life". I mark the page if any of them takes a wound. Simple, quick, efficient. You could use pennies but my 6 year old has discovered money.

I also run a BikerBoss with 12 Bikers and 3 Nobs on bikes. Lots o' distractions. All assaulty all the time.

While I do agree that mixmatched nobz are 'the $#!7' I'm also wondering if they really 'need' it.

I've been experimenting with a nobz blob that has 3 pks, painboy, a bosspole, a banner, and then 4 'average joe' nobz. so far it hasn't done too bad. there's enough wound allocation that the squad won't pop from a few random attacks or shots, and there are a pile of S5 attacks on the charge which shreads anything that I want it to shred.

While Dash argues that 'you should never need cybork bodies with mech nobz' I'm going to go a step farther, you should never need to abuse wound allocation. if your getting hit with, say, mass power weapon attacks, your squad is going to die anyways. Most people will forget trying to shoot the nobz to death with small arms and will try for the instant death (because getting 10 wounds through is easier than getting 20 through that I can re-roll a 4+ save on)

starbomber109 wrote:While I do agree that mixmatched nobz are 'the $#!7' I'm also wondering if they really 'need' it.

That's like saying "This tournament is for 2500 point armies, but my list does pretty well at 2000, and I just don't think I need those last 500 points to win". If you're wanting to provide a soft game to someone who is still learning their army, or playing "friendly", then by all means, come to the table with a less than optimal army.

Comments like this are why I spend more time reading Stelek's blog these days than I do Dakka...

PipeAlley wrote:
I always use Cyborks and never use Eavy Armor. I think it's a waste with having Cyborks. Inv save is more useful the way I play.

I would definitely agree with this. The difference is only 8% more wounds from normal hits and not worth another 50 points unless you're playing at very high points levels.

Also, for biker nobs, since they typically are the target of more strength 8+ weaponry having your squad entirely differentiated isn't necessary. In a maxed out squad having 3 or 4 duplicates rarely affects me negatively since there's almost always a few that get killed on the way in.

Dashofpepper wrote: On Turn2+, you have a 27" assault range

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but how do you get a 27" assault range?

Trukk RPJ 13" + Disembark 2" + Waaagh fleet roll of potential 6" + Assault 6"

That's how I figure it

Just for the sake of clarity, I'll explain why many people think the "Musical Nobz" wound allocation strategy is poor sportsmanship.

It is true, as Gorkamorka pointed out, that Nobz are intended to be given varied equipment, and that the wound allocation rules are there for that same purpose. However, the wound allocation rules are there to make sure that special equipment can be put at risk from damage in a fair way. They were never intended to be a means to totally minimize the effect of damage on the whole squad.

Secondly, Nobz have so many wargear options because they fit the theme of all-purpose, experienced fighters who pick up unique tools for special jobs. The lists that give a few Nobz Ammo Runts, for instance, probably wouldn't even bother to re-roll shooting as the item was intended, the Runt is just a 5-point excuse to allocate wounds differently.

Basically, it's an exploit, a loophole, a trick developed long ago by very clever, competitive-minded players. It is totally legal and within the rules, but it is so contrary to the spirit of what the rules are meant to represent that it's just abusive. Hence, using musical Nobz is interpreted as somewhat douche-y behavior in the circles where I usually travel; there's a roll of the eyes and an "Oh, great, THIS again." If you're trying to win a tournament, fair enough, use every trick in the book, but in casual play that's just for fun, you don't need to pull a fast one on your friends.

I just think it's unfortunate that people think a squad of Nobz HAS to use wound allocation trickery to be "properly-fielded," is all.

alanedomain wrote:
Basically, it's an exploit, a loophole, a trick developed long ago by very clever, competitive-minded players. It is totally legal and within the rules, but it is so contrary to the spirit of what the rules are meant to represent that it's just abusive. Hence, using musical Nobz is interpreted as somewhat douche-y behavior in the circles where I usually travel; there's a roll of the eyes and an "Oh, great, THIS again." If you're trying to win a tournament, fair enough, use every trick in the book, but in casual play that's just for fun, you don't need to pull a fast one on your friends.

This isn't some moral grey area you are a shining beacon of correctness on. Nobz are multiwound models that can get unique wargear, there are rules for handling multiwound models with unique wargear. The 'intention' of the rules is to handle wounds on unique multiwound units.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop implying that people who play nobz to their potential instead of fielding weaker squads are 'douche-y' and should be ostracized as TFGs.
Following clear rules isn't an 'exploit', 'loophole', 'abusive', 'pulling a fast one', or a 'trick'.
I'd roll my eyes if anyone in my FLGS ever told me I couldn't field my army effectively and correctly just because they thought it was unfair or powerful.

Gorkamorka wrote:
This isn't some moral grey area you are a shining beacon of correctness on. Nobz are multiwound models that can get unique wargear, there are rules for handling multiwound models with unique wargear. The 'intention' of the rules is to handle wounds on unique multiwound units.

As I said, it is totally legal and within the rules, and I apologize if I came off as judging people who like this trick too harshly. I was just trying to make it clear to the OP why such a tactic might be unpopular in certain social environments, and why I choose not to use it to full advantage myself. No hard feelings, I hope!

I also hope people see my point about how this use of the rule is somewhat exploitative. Basically, Nobz let you take a rule that is supposed to be a disadvantage ("crap, I have to spread these wounds out evenly around my squad...") and turn it into an advantage ("awesome, I get to spread these wounds out evenly around my squad!"), which is why I say that doing this intentionally is "contrary to the spirit" of the wound allocation rules, while still being entirely within the rules as written. See what I mean? I don't think GW intended Nobz to have this technique as an advantage, but the fact that they apparently didn't catch it in playtesting is no surprise, either. Of course, we can never be entirely sure how they "want us to play," (aside from BUY MORE MARINES, of course!).

I think nobs are best used as a counter charge/secondary assault unit.

Tie the enemy down wiff DA BOYZ and then you can be very selective with where your nobs go. A nob mob multi charging 2-3 units already tied up with boyz is going to swing the combat really fast.

The problem with them as first wave is they often get shot to gak, as second wave the entire enemy army will be tied down ideally.

Malecus wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:While I do agree that mixmatched nobz are 'the $#!7' I'm also wondering if they really 'need' it.

That's like saying "This tournament is for 2500 point armies, but my list does pretty well at 2000, and I just don't think I need those last 500 points to win". If you're wanting to provide a soft game to someone who is still learning their army, or playing "friendly", then by all means, come to the table with a less than optimal army.

Comments like this are why I spend more time reading Stelek's blog these days than I do Dakka...

1-While wound allocation games are nice, I do think Starbomb109 has a very valid point. Mainly that they can beat up on most things just fine without crazy wound allocation.

2-hes only played a few months, and is in the 'try everything ever' phase. We all went through it.

3-Stelek? Really?
pic related

It is not a loop-hole, nor an exploit, nor a trick....nor is it contrary to the spirit of the rules.

Please do not creatively interpret the rulebook, or presume you know what its authors intended.

Actually I do think its probably a loop hole or an exploit. I find it hard to imagine GW would include something as slowed as crazy wound allocation nobs in their games on purpose. Fortunately the IG has largely shut down nobs from winning events.
With that said its not cheating. Someone who uses it is not in any way breaking the rules. They are simply using whats probably an oversight on GWs part to their advantage. We all do this when we are playing competitively

Alright, we'll agree to disagree. I also post on another 40k board where the opposite opinion prevails, so I guess it's just one of those things.

On the subject of modeling Nobz, michelj, I would suggest getting the entire Black Orks box if you haven't already (though you mentioned having some helmeted heads). The armored bodies are great for making 'eavy Armoured Nobz, which you might want some of, and the box also includes several brutal-looking two-handed axes that make good Big Choppas, should you choose to use them. Plus, there's a nice battle standard in there that makes a terrific Waaagh! Banner, too, something the 40k Nob box lacks for some reason.

So many Nobz ideas... *drools*

alanedomain wrote:Alright, we'll agree to disagree. I also post on another 40k board where the opposite opinion prevails, so I guess it's just one of those things.

On the subject of modeling Nobz, michelj, I would suggest getting the entire Black Orks box if you haven't already (though you mentioned having some helmeted heads). The armored bodies are great for making 'eavy Armoured Nobz, which you might want some of, and the box also includes several brutal-looking two-handed axes that make good Big Choppas, should you choose to use them. Plus, there's a nice battle standard in there that makes a terrific Waaagh! Banner, too, something the 40k Nob box lacks for some reason.

I agree 100%, I bought the Black Orks box with the intent to make 'ard boyz out of them...but I found out they were way too big for that mostly, about nob sized, in fact almost perfectly nob sized. It's an awesome kit too, throw a few power klaws and bosspoles onto them and you'll have a great nobz mob. Giving them a pistol seems easy enough, though for coherency sake, I would recommend you get the nobz box as well, there's some kombi-weapons and power klaws in there, both of which are pretty good in a nobz mob

I agree with this as well. My nobs squad is a mix of black orks and generous raiding of the bitz box. Turned out great for me.

Just as an opinion on the wound allocation stuff. I don't have a problem with it. I do think it's a little gamey, and minimise my own use of it, but hey whatever. It's my choice. I could see how certain gaming circles could roll their eyes at it however. I'm easy going. I try and play at whatever competitive level my opponent is. Some groups I've played with are at different points on the competitive scale.

I like my nobs squad. I take 10 guys - 1 klaw, one painboy, one boss pole, one waaagh banner w/ cybork on all. I used to try to run heavy armour, but I find generally I can charge the squad I want to, but many times get counter charged by a nasty squad with some fist/power weapons, and prefer the chance to save against anything.

For people who thinks wound allocation is cheese, let me ask you this question. What makes you think it is more intuitive for a wounded nob to suffer the next unsaved wound? Why should'nt wounds be allowed to spread around to other unwounded models, just as if there is an equal chance of anyone getting hit in a real arms battle? I have 10 nobs, Nob no.1 was already wounded in previous turn. Why would he be more vulnerable to incoming bullets than the others? Not quite intuitive yeah?

To the OP: A Nob squad should always have a painboy. Cybork bodies are preferred over Eavy armor. For the same point cost, a 4+/4+ saves is only slightly better than a 5+/4+ save against light weapons. Against heavier arms, Cybork gives you 33% chance of saving your model while Eavy armor provides none. If you think you are goin to depend on cover saves all the time, then good luck. (1) I wreck your vehicles on turn 1, your nobs disembark. You can choose to stay in cover and do nothing the whole game, or advance but risk getting shot by low AP weapons. (2) I bubble wrapped. Your Nobs charged and wiped the unit. Now they are left in the open - either you rely on your cybork or you go to ground for a pathetic 6+ cover save. There are many other scenarios I can list. Bottomline is - if you want to save on that 5 pts for Cybork bodies, I would rather you not take them at all. A nob squad is meant to be a highly flexible unit in your army list, capable of filling in the gaps in your army.

Last but not least, Stelek's blog is at most a source of entertainment. If you feel like losing, follow his advice :-). In fact, he is another self proclaimed big fish, but in reality living in a small pond.

Malecus wrote:Comments like this are why I spend more time reading Stelek's blog these days than I do Dakka...

My first guess would have been 'because you're a masochist', but to each his own.

Very well, I think terminators with 2+/3++ saves and hammers in a AV 14 all around that can move 12", fire a weapon (even if shaken), and launch an assault without the drawback of being open topped is also unsporting.

Add in melta spam, force weapons, and sternguard for good measure.

Almost every army has a unit that can be darn tough to kill and is killy in return. Nobz are that unit for Orks.

Nobody said Nobs are cheating. But they are fairly cheesy. If your gaming group is cool with cheese, as mine is, then they are fair. If not id leave the wound allocation game nobs at home.

Thats all that was said.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that all my Shoota/Skorchas are the Chaos Combi-Heavy Flamers. They also help the Cybork look, the arm looks like it's part metal and the shoulder pad is great for a Mob logo or other decal.