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ph34r wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Defensive fire is a horrible idea. Storm Troopers deepstruck, instantly died because they were in 12" of everything it turned out. Same thing happened for the Trygon (The executioner had a line of sight, and despite being stunned last round, had regained combat readiness).

So instead of choosing to deepstrike 19" away, where they could fire safely, you chose to put them in the critical zone (Which scatters you) to get defensive fired to death? Somehow it's less a bad idea and more because you decided to deepstrike into a group of people ready to blast your butt back to the stoneage for your error.

Brilliant. Just tell the guy to DS his stormtroopers 19" away, those melta guns will be real effective from back there.

Well Duh.
Not all old tactics and load-out work in new rules-setting. And they shouldn't!
Maybe they would be better of with plasmas and targeting softer targets?

Im sorry I see the guard as terrifying to play against in 6th. Lots of separate units mean that deep strikers are DOA landing in a solid guard line. A squadron of bubble wrapped Russ tanks are going to be reasonably hard to dislodge (and be able to put out very effective and accurate shooting). Guard have in spades one of the most important things your 40k army needs now.. Speed bumps to stop the enemy alpha punch. You lose a few units at most and then return fire into them. Worse still if you go first.

Vehicles are the most durable in these rules than they have ever been in the history of 40k Transport spam will still work (especially with the disembark/shoot/embarkation silliness).

I think the review posted above is simply shock of a player unprepared for new rules



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adhuin wrote:

ph34r wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Defensive fire is a horrible idea. Storm Troopers deepstruck, instantly died because they were in 12" of everything it turned out. Same thing happened for the Trygon (The executioner had a line of sight, and despite being stunned last round, had regained combat readiness).

So instead of choosing to deepstrike 19" away, where they could fire safely, you chose to put them in the critical zone (Which scatters you) to get defensive fired to death? Somehow it's less a bad idea and more because you decided to deepstrike into a group of people ready to blast your butt back to the stoneage for your error.

Brilliant. Just tell the guy to DS his stormtroopers 19" away, those melta guns will be real effective from back there.

Well Duh.
Not all old tactics and load-out work in new rules-setting. And they shouldn't!
Maybe they would be better of with plasmas and targeting softer targets?

Or better yet just deep strike with the hotshots they are armed with and obliterate MEQ with utter impunity. The axing of cover saves means a stormtrooper squad deep striking will melt devastators or any other prime target.

Am I right in thinking all MEQ armies got borked in 6th ed?

It would be a shame, because I really wanted to do an Ultramarine 2nd Company or Crimson Fist army after I finish my 'Crons.

No, sir you are not.

junk wrote:No, sir you are not.

He's wrong in that all MEQ armies got borked, he is correct in that standard ultramarines do. The rules do not in any way benefit mixed units or defensive line formations, and thats about all standard ultramarines (assuming cold blooded or universal ld10) are really capable of doing well or better than contemporaries. Wolves maintain quite well thanks to their ability to alpha strike with rapid fire and then still function well in combat, and blood angels get a significant boost with the new deep strike rules and movement speeds. Ultramarines just sort of suffer most of the changes by either receiving minimal benefit or facing armies that are benefited much more.

ShumaGorath wrote:

junk wrote:No, sir you are not.

He's wrong in that all MEQ armies got borked, he is correct in that standard ultramarines do. The rules do not in any way benefit mixed units or defensive line formations, and thats about all standard ultramarines (assuming cold blooded or universal ld10) are really capable of doing well or better than contemporaries. Wolves maintain quite well thanks to their ability to alpha strike with rapid fire and then still function well in combat, and blood angels get a significant boost with the new deep strike rules and movement speeds. Ultramarines just sort of suffer most of the changes by either receiving minimal benefit or facing armies that are benefited much more.

Perhaps, but for the uniques; Kahn, Vulkan, Shrike... all allow for their own potentially viable builds. Lysander isn't so bad either.

As C:SM get updated every version, there will soon be a 6th version following after sooner or later that should fix it up properly to 6th edition. So it's not to much of a big deal.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:And his meltaguns will be really effective deepstriking right into the heart of the enemy forces. Though as for why you'd need deepstriking close range melta against tyranids is beyond me. You don't need close range melta against tyranids.

Yeah, I don't know why you would take melta guns at all vs tyranids, but the point remains that stormtroopers are now even worse than they used to be. They can still be accurate in their deep striking thanks to their special rules, but that's all for naught because you just free defensive fire them anyway if within 12", and if farther away their special rules are useless.

Puscifer wrote:Am I right in thinking all MEQ armies got borked in 6th ed?

It would be a shame, because I really wanted to do an Ultramarine 2nd Company or Crimson Fist army after I finish my 'Crons.

I would say that Vulkan lists can be brutal to their opponents with the new rules regarding flamers.

J.Black wrote:Looks more like a fanfic/wishlist.......

We're gonna have titans in standard rules now?

Why not. The power level has been creeping up for years anyways...

ph34r wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:And his meltaguns will be really effective deepstriking right into the heart of the enemy forces. Though as for why you'd need deepstriking close range melta against tyranids is beyond me. You don't need close range melta against tyranids.

Yeah, I don't know why you would take melta guns at all vs tyranids, but the point remains that stormtroopers are now even worse than they used to be. They can still be accurate in their deep striking thanks to their special rules, but that's all for naught because you just free defensive fire them anyway if within 12", and if farther away their special rules are useless.

Scout and move through cover are useless? Infiltrate and pinning is useless? Plus if you position deepstriking well so that your 4+ armor saves aren't overloaded by the ENTIRE army, I'm sure it'd be useful too.

Here's some thoughts on how to use some stormtroopers against vehicles/MC's, take a grenade launcher with a melta as well. Charge in assault against a vehicle, storm troopers krak grenades now hit on WS5 (as grenade launcher now reduces a moving vehicles WS by half, same with massive creatures). Break out the soft innards (or MEQ), and shoot up with hellguns + nade launcher + melta. If you fail to penetrate it, use melta. If stuck in combat against a MC, hope for the best

lazarian wrote:Well Duh.
Not all old tactics and load-out work in new rules-setting. And they shouldn't!
Maybe they would be better of with plasmas and targeting softer targets?

Sure, you can deep strike with plasma guns and try to shoot infantry... but then why even deep strike?

lazarian wrote:Or better yet just deep strike with the hotshots they are armed with and obliterate MEQ with utter impunity. The axing of cover saves means a stormtrooper squad deep striking will melt devastators or any other prime target.

So, while you are obliterating MEQ with utter impunity, what do you think they are going to do to your ST squad in return? Do you really think 18 points per model is worth it to deep strike and kill 4 points of long fangs each on average, even given that the target was stationary? Puh-leez.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Scout and move through cover are useless? Infiltrate and pinning is useless? Plus if you position deepstriking well so that your 4+ armor saves aren't overloaded by the ENTIRE army, I'm sure it'd be useful too.

Yeah, those are basically still garbage on 18 point stormtroopers.
Better than they were at running around shooting people with hot-shot lasguns, sure.
Way worse at the only thing they were sort-of good at: melta suicide.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Here's some thoughts on how to use some stormtroopers against vehicles/MC's, take a grenade launcher with a melta as well. Charge in assault against a vehicle, storm troopers krak grenades now hit on WS5 (as grenade launcher now reduces a moving vehicles WS by half, same with massive creatures). Break out the soft innards (or MEQ), and shoot up with hellguns + nade launcher + melta. If you fail to penetrate it, use melta. If stuck in combat against a MC, hope for the best

If grenade launchers lower a moving vehicles WS10, which I suspect it will not after revisions and FAQ because it makes zero sense, then you are best off just taking veterans to do the same thing with melta bombs, the example you listed is absolutely awful a stormtrooper unit with only 1 melta gun, and relying on crack grenades to destroy a vehicle? Come on, we both know that will never happen.

ph34r wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:And his meltaguns will be really effective deepstriking right into the heart of the enemy forces. Though as for why you'd need deepstriking close range melta against tyranids is beyond me. You don't need close range melta against tyranids.

Yeah, I don't know why you would take melta guns at all vs tyranids, but the point remains that stormtroopers are now even worse than they used to be. They can still be accurate in their deep striking thanks to their special rules, but that's all for naught because you just free defensive fire them anyway if within 12", and if farther away their special rules are useless.

This "sky is falling" bull for IG is ridiculous.

Deep strike to 18" away from target. (no scatter, no defensive fire, placed in formation)

Combat move 6" towards target.

Now you are 18-6" = 12" from target. Shoot meltaguns. Profit. What is so hard to understand about this? Even the fact that these rules could be different from what we see in 6th edition proper, even they have applicable solutions to problems on the 40K table.

Storm troopers are 16 points, not sure where you are getting 18 from.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Storm troopers are 16 points, not sure where you are getting 18 from.

Between the built in sergeant cost and the essentially mandatory special weapon costs their cost goes up, but yeah their base cost is 16, I was wrong.


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tetrisphreak wrote:This "sky is falling" bull for IG is ridiculous.

Deep strike to 18" away from target. (no scatter, no defensive fire, placed in formation)

Combat move 6" towards target.

Now you are 18-6" = 12" from target. Shoot meltaguns. Profit. What is so hard to understand about this? Even the fact that these rules could be different from what we see in 6th edition proper, even they have applicable solutions to problems on the 40K table.

Cool. So you get to spend 105 points on a unit to fire 2 str 8 shots with no +d6 melta, that will even more assuredly die in the following turn with 5+ cover max.

If you call ST with MG deepstriking to shoot from outside melta range profit... I've got a pyrovore to sell you.

.

Cool. So you get to spend 105 points on a unit to fire 2 str 8 shots with no +d6 melta, that will even more assuredly die in the following turn with 5+ cover max.

Take the scouts ability, get 4+ cover save

However at this point, why do you need so much melta?

This whole melta storm trooper discussion is sort of irrelevant it seems to me. Melta isn't quite as good in leakhammer. On a unit like stormtroopers plasma would be way better. Or just the hotshots would be ok. I dont think deep strike storm troopers are good in 5th either, but that is a whole other discussion.

You have to keep in mind that you can shoot rapid fire guns at full range all the time (move or not) in leakhammer. It also has no effect on assaulting. So plasmaguns are on par with melta, as opposed to 5th, where plasma gimps a lot of units.

I do think transports lost a lot so chimeras are not where it's at in leakhammer. But leman russ and valkyries are better. Competitive guard players will likely shift back to tank based builds.

Discussing the viability of a unit like storm troopers and basing the argument on it's cost effectiveness seems silly to me. They weren't cost effective in fifth, and in sixth veterans can still do all the same stuff better and more efficiently than storms.
Stormtroopers are a unit that has to compete with the utter bs of the veteran squad. Nothing can compare to that. If every codex has access to veterans, vendettas, and chimeras you'd see them in every army.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Take the scouts ability, get 4+ cover save

what

ph34r wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Take the scouts ability, get 4+ cover save

what

Had a brain fart, mistook scouts with stealth.

Though outflanking stormtroopers with melta could still accomplish what you want, what with the 6" range off the sides now.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Though outflanking stormtroopers with melta could still accomplish what you want, what with the 6" range off the sides now.

Well, if the opponent puts his tanks within 18" of the sides you can. Not terribly hard to avoid, but probably better than DS melta with the nerfs.

LunaHound wrote:Hmmmmmmm...................

If this is the new Rules I like the Evasion addition

I went through a lot of these posts and read about half this leaked rulebook and am I the only 1 that is way thrown off by having the assault phase before the shooting? It makes weapons like the flamer and pistols close to useless unless I'm missing something? (and I may be)

You are indeed, both pistols and flamers have CC applications now. Fire Sweep allows you to use template weapons in CC for 1d6 automatic hits, and pistols may either be used to 'shoot' in CC or in their normal function as secondary weapons to add an attack.

Still Assault before shooting does force you to make different tactical decisions, and you really have to know where you want your units to be at the end of the round.

As a Tyranid player, I've got to say I'd normally have very little sympathy for a IG player complaining about getting destroyed. However, seeing how drastically this changes their game, I can see why it would be a tremendous shock to them.

However, it's a new edition, and frankly, even MCs aren't safe from getting torrented by sheer volumes of fire if they remain stationary.

Marrak wrote:As a Tyranid player, I've got to say I'd normally have very little sympathy for a IG player complaining about getting destroyed. However, seeing how drastically this changes their game, I can see why it would be a tremendous shock to them.

However, it's a new edition, and frankly, even MCs aren't safe from getting torrented by sheer volumes of fire if they remain stationary.

I guess that's what happens when one of your staple army lists is literally named after the most boring thing ever, the parking lot.

I find the use of the word 'parody' in the GW response quite amazing. I'm assuming that since MadCowCrazy
is from Finland, he contacted GWUK. Perhaps GWUK legal does not know that parody is protected in the US? I would assume that it is also protected speech in the UK? As Nagashek says below, parody is protected speech in the US and if GW legal thinks its a parody, they should not have any problems with it being distributed on the net, or even printed out and sold as a parody

Nagashek wrote:Except, that if you did all that and called it a "Parody," you would legally have a leg to stand on as parody and satire are protected speech in the US. Since the GW rep called it "a parody work," you can probably redistribute it with impunity.

Pacific wrote:I find the use of 'parody' in the GW reply quite interesting. The word is imbued with a generally negative connotation, as though it is somehow a poor and shallow copy of a superior original. Not enough that they just say it is a fan made project..

The lady doth protest too much... and as many have said, it appears to be a big improvement of the current version of 40K. This GW response is probably closer to parody than the leak is.

Ronin_eX wrote: But to still have their lawyers hunting the source after two weeks seems a bit suspect.

I suspect that they are actually still looking for the inside GW "source" that leaked the document...

CT GAMER wrote:

J.Black wrote:Looks more like a fanfic/wishlist.......

We're gonna have titans in standard rules now?

Why not. The power level has been creeping up for years anyways...

Plastic Kit titans? Why should forgeworld have all the fun?

Dribble Joy wrote:

Hatemonger wrote:It also means there's no way to perform any kind of "suppressive fire" before an assault, like pinning a unit with sniper fire.

You can use pinning in other ways to good effect. Aside from the basic effects, pinned (specifically shaken) units can't perform Support actions, so they can't use Look out Sarg, Go to Ground, DF, CbC and a whole range of other things that you can then exploit.

Well, yes and no. What I was trying to say in my post was that, for some of those, pinning actually doesn't work, because of the timing. Yes, if I shoot a unit in front and pin them, they can't use Look Out Sarge to save a unit behind them (from further shooting this turn), and they can't Go to Ground if I shoot at them again. Then, after my shooting phase, my turn ends.

In your turn, you can't make any of the double/fast type moves, and can't use multi-targeting, and can't use Support actions, but otherwise are unrestricted, which means in most cases your average Tactical squad type unit isn't really affected. It's free to stand still or make a basic move, and then shoot accordingly. In your consolidation phase, the effect goes away.

Now it's my turn again, and I'm ready to bring in my reserves and make some assault moves, but everything is back where we started. If I Deep Strike, you get Defensive Fire. If I assault you in cover, you get Alpha Strike. So what did I gain?

If I'm a Tyranid or Daemon player, those are things I clearly would like to prevent, and the rules seem like they include ways to perform some kind of neat tactical tricks to do it, as you have obviously noticed. Unfortunately, while the foundation appears to be there, the actual mechanisms aren't.

junk wrote:Defensive fire is definitely a consideration; but it's always been risky to deep strike close to an enemy, for a variety of reasons; the removal of mishaps entirely, IMO, does balance it out to some extent; and the ability to assault out of deep strike balances it out the rest of the way

Defensive Fire is extremely deadly. On first look I thought it would be roughly the same as in 5th, and the chance to assault after DS made me really excited to try out Daemons under this rule set, but now I am rethinking the veracity of that. On one hand, it sounds like the same number of shots; I deep strike, you get one chance to shoot me, then I assault you, right? The difference is, as it stands now in 5th, taking that shot competes with other options of what to do during your turn, creating some difficult tactical choices, whereas with this pdf, it's just free.

Take Shadelkan's example of the Trygon. Nid player Deep Strikes it into the IG deployment zone, while moving the rest of his force up, to create pressure on multiple fronts.

5th edition: It's the IG turn, and he has to choose what to do with each of his units. He might still decide to shoot everything nearby at the Trygon, but at least the units that do so aren't shooting at something else, so it gives the Tyranid player a chance to bring something else into the fight while using the Trygon as a distraction.

Leakhammer/fakehammer: Trygon drops in, everything within 12" opens up, because Why Not? They'd be stupid not to. On the IG turn, everyone is unaffected, and fires all the same guns again, this time at different units.

So again, if you're the Tyranid player, you have to be wondering, what did you gain by doing that?

- H8

It's interesting to see how people talk about Guard surviving, since I'm utterly terrified of the potential damage they will discharge regarding the new EV and template rules - but then again, I rarely (if ever) use outflanking as an Ork or DE player.

I've already felt the burn of first turn tau destruction (including rails), I shudder to think what IG would be able to throw at me.

In general, I'm going to be quite interested to see how this edition is going to shake up how different races play, how individual units are perceived in the current codices.

Already we see that the Mandrake HQ for DE now has Ambush DS, Mandrakes in general now auto DS in the first turn, and can ouflank as well, so in general a much needed improvement in viability.

FlashGits effectively have BS3, which goes a LONG way to amend their viability predicament (outside of them being awkwardly situated in the Heavy Support FOC).

Kanwals are going to suffer considerably, since Walkers are "Massive", and as such have an EV value of 2 (ie, you're hitting them with BS+1), not to mention only ever getting 5+ saves.

Transport delivery is a whole 'nother bag o' grots. Being only ever being able to drop units if the vehicle moved at combat speed, and having units execute moves directly from entry points, changes the mentality somewhat. Trukk Orks currently have 21" assault, or a potential 27" waaagh assault. These rules instead dictate a 19" assault, or a 23" waaagh assault. For Raider/Venom DE, currently we have a potential 21" to 26" assault. Under these rules, we have a guaranteed 24" assault. So the Orks are arguably going to have a tougher time getting into combat, especially considering the increased vulnerability of vehicles. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, may have gotten a better deal out of it.

On that note, though, something I'm trying to figure out: For moving through difficult terrain, infantry can never move through it if they opt to run, and by extension can only ever make a combat move if inside difficult terrain. However, the rules go on to state: "Other Move actions and Consolidations are not affected by difficult terrain". Does this mean that one can execute an Assault Charge action through difficult terrain? Effectively moving 2x base movement value to assault an enemy unit?