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Where do you think the Tyranids fit into the power curve?

Relative to other codices what is your opinion of the Tyranids? Are they an effective army, are they balanced? Overpowered? Underpowered?

Do you think they may have a chance in the upcoming hardboy and at what saturation do you think they will enter?

What are the power builds you have seen or experimented with directly?

I'd say top 3. The top being Space Wolves and Blood Angels, because frankly I find the latter to be a broken piece of feth.

Then again, I don't go to Tournies often and have yet to play Blood Angels in anything but casual play. Nids are still a very different and fun army to face, and even when you know the list, they find something new to throw in.

IG and Space Wolves are right up there at the top. Meanwhile, Tyranids are neither great nor bad. Above average I guess? It really depends on what you field, quite a few choices are pretty much sub-par. It's a shame that some good Tyranid ideas turned out to be testbeds for Blood Angels

No-Kidding. I wish our tervigon's psychic power granted FnP to everybody within 6", instead of just one squad right? Stupid Sanguinary Priests.

And to the poster who said top 3, I have to say thanks for the well-wishes but as a tyranid player I have to disagree. Imperial guard and Space wolves and quite possibly Blood Angels will most likely be the top-finishing armies in 'ard boys with tyranids somewhere in the middle i think. Our strength lies in close combat, the problem being that we almost never make it there when we're getting shot at from turn one. An all deep-strike list could counter the alpha strike IG build until, oh wait, MYSTICS!!! plus without 2 tyrants (one as a swarmlord and the other running hive commander) there's little to no guarantee that the army won't come in piecemeal and be even easier to shoot apart.

All that being said, I will bring my 'Nid army to the tournament and hopefully prove myself wrong. Time and dice will tell.

While I agree IG are easily going to smash nids when they're ordnance heavy, they are not actually as great as some appear. Adepticon proved that.

As a guard player and tyranid player. The two armies are miles apart in power. I would say nids are middle tier

I'd stick nids in right above Necrons. At the bottom.

I play Orks and DE, and I've yet to meet a Nids list that I did more than scoff at.

I dunno, I think they can do very well. Made a list I think would do great:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/289875.page#1494765

@dashofpepper

I agree that necrons are the suck, but Orks>Tyranids? A lot of our observations come from personal experience, but I have never had trouble with an ork army. Typically speaking, the orks outclass 'nids on a model-per-model basis in CC. However, a skilled 'nid player will always try to keep their swarm as one big functioning unit and (hopefully) pick off the enemy units one by one. If your tyranid opponents have the habit of splitting their army up to face yours head-on, I'm not surprised that they do poorly.

Strangely for a new codex they rank mid range in my opinion. I would say they are behind IG, Orks, SW, BA, SM and even CSM. It is a fun codex for casual games but is not competitive and it is showing in tourneys. I would say this is partial due to the prevalence of mech. Tyranids have better ways of dealing with mech now but they still suffer against it. On top of the mech meta the codex is a bit of mess in terms of point costs, rules, and internal balance and even external balance compared to other 5th edition codices.

Compared to other 5th edition codices I would say Tyranids are average in power.

The bugs are an army that has great potential...if you know what you're doing. Middle to high tier army...it can wreck face.

ductvader wrote:The bugs are an army that has great potential...if you know what you're doing. Middle to high tier army...it can wreck face.

This. I would say Tyranids are one of the the hardest, if not the hardest army to play effectively (Eldar and DE both have very straightforward builds that are effective). Dont go into your store playing a random nid player and expect a major challenge.

We'll see what happens when people are finished fine tuning their lists and learn how to use it effectively.

There is some nice synergy in the nid army but one of the problems is that a good bit of it is psychic so certain armies are able to easily interrupt that. A tyrant, a tervigon and a unit of juiced up hormagaunts or even termagants can combine to ruin any unit in the game even in cover but it is not a sure thing and often against armies with psychic defense it can be neutered without the other player really having to do anything other than take certain gear etc.

Plus like I mentioned before Tyranids are better vs armor but still not good against it so the mech meta works against nid players from the very start since it is so prevalent in many circles. 6th edition could help here if it makes going mech a touch less friendly than 5th.

I played Nids at Platinum Devil.

It is quite obvious they have problems with anti-tank. Their only serious options are Zoanthropes which are good but have a short range, and various Monstrous Creatures which are expensive and short range except for the one with the big cannon which has a 48 inch range but it is even more expensive.

Some codexes particularly SM and IG have access to lots of cheap, well armed tanks.

Therefore I think Nids are relatively weak given the current popularity of mechanised armies.

Hive Guard are good against transports but do struggle a bit vs AV13 plus. The Tyrannofex is just a bit too expensive for what it does. I think they thought that how effective nids are in assault that they needed to keep them somewhat limited vs vehicles. Unfortunately a lack of grenades has somewhat blunted nids effectiveness in assault making them depend on shooting that was made weaker or psychic powers that can be stopped or expensive units with expensive upgrades like warriors with lashs to deal with units in cover. I hope the pyrovore was not put in with the thought that it would help us with the lack of frag grenades lol. Our assault is also hurt by fearless and the way wounds spill over now. I like Raveners and warriors but their three wounds are often a detriment in combat because good rolls with a power fist or claw etc often mean combat resolution is brutal for nids. Also combined assaults with things like Trygons and fexs are bad news because an enemy often does not even have to land one attack on them to cause a lot of wounds as they spill over from the smaller nids. I still like nids but they do have some issues that are hard to overcome vs a good opponent wielding some of the better armies like IG and SW.

I have my Tyranid 1750pts list running perfectly. I have yet to lose a game.

Back on topic, the Tyranid codex is one of the better ones in terms of overall internal balance. It's still new and a lot of people are stuck on the old codex playstyle and it's changed. As people adapt and find the combos, it will hold its own just fine. I'm not interested in owning a Tyranid army, but if I was, the codex would not be a hindrance.

Two words: toxin sacs. The strength 3 guants are no longer a problem. They are very good with all the ability to stack buffs in CC. If you run a huge wave with everything giving cover to the bigger ones behind them their lack of armor save is mitigated. Add in a Tervigon and FNP the front lines and you're golden. Drop pod Zoeys can take down anything in suicide fashion for a reasonable cost. AP1 Lance St 10 shouldn't exist IMO. The point of lance was to counter the lower strength not to be combined with strength 10. Hive guard are amazing anti transport and can take down AV 12 and less pretty easily. The Doom of Malanti....just lame. Auto sucking wounds on BOTH players turns...not cool.

Overall I'm not going to cry cheese but I would say that Nids are very strong now. How many armies can boast that many viable troop choices? Sure, things can get pricey but overall the cheap guants will provide a numbers even out. I think people don't think they are "elite" or "top tier" because of a lack of single power build. I would argue that almost makes them better. Nids=very competitive.

As a nid payer I would have to say we aren't in the top tier at first glance, but in the hands of a skilled general with a fine list we can still surprise and beat a lot of other competitive players and lists.

I'm on the same page as Night Lords.

Yeah, Nids struggle vs. Mech, but they can deal with it, even though it is an uphill battle on a fairly steep hill. Where they excel is in a semi-mech battle. Toxin sacks are worth their volume in gold.

I think it's hard to easily answer this one. The codex is designed to require units to support one another and provide certain synergies. The codex is also designed to encourage a lot of units OTHER than the cheap carnifexes that many players relied on in the last iteration of the codex. I think it's strong, but its play style is not obvious or easy. Other top codices are easier to learn, so I think Nids overall rank a bit below the top.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:I'd say top 3. The top being Space Wolves and Blood Angels, because frankly I find the latter to be a broken piece of feth.

Then again, I don't go to Tournies often and have yet to play Blood Angels in anything but casual play. Nids are still a very different and fun army to face, and even when you know the list, they find something new to throw in.

LOL! Thanks for the laugh, you're better than any number of circus clowns.

Terminus, do you have anything relevant to add to the thread?

Nids can be done extremely well if you find the right synergies and play well.


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And to be more specific, I think that the reason tyranids haven't been showing up and doing well at tournaments is that the playstyle is so different to what it used to be and to other armies, that it takes some more time getting used to.

I myself have only found 1 build that I'm completely happy with. It relys on going second, but when it works...it works.

Only now am I beginning to work on other lists that may or may not be successful. It's hard to find units in the 'dex (except our elites slot) and say "that is awesome". We now have a look and say "that COULD work really well if I combo'ed it with...". It's a much more complicated codex compared to others.

I've been unbeaten with my nids, I did tie a game only because it ended on turn 5.

I hate to do this but here are some tips for winning with nids.

In Objective games. Your first priority is to mmoblise Vehicles. You don't have to destroy them, just stop them then forget them.

Next learn to lure units. Remember only your scoring units matter, Death leaper, The doom, a hive tyrant. non of these units matter. But people love to target them. use them to drw Scoring units out of place to claim an Objective while Downing any transports that can move them fast, Remember it's not kill points.

Lastly Move your Big MCs up a flank claiming Objectives with your big baddies. Use your redeployers, spawned gants, Death leaper, Marloc, and any winged nids to contest even use pods if you need to.

Make false threats I run 3 Trygons in my 1500 point lists 2 walk one deepstrikes. The first two take a few wonds comming in, then ll guns turn to the trygon in the backfield givving the other two trygons, hive tyrantm and Tervagon a free turn prety much.

Killpoints is easy, Again target transports, It takes skill to do this, but if you do it right for every rhino you bust with an Rupture cannon or Heavy Venom cannon they will have to strip a 6 wound MC, who is blocking your 4 wound MCs, Use your Gant screen for the first turn, Then run them away to cover on the other side of the Board and go to ground. Keep weaker units in reserve and bring them on away from the action. With a small enough MC army, Killing the transports means they pretty much have to wipe you. Cover wounded MCs with fresh ones, run badly wounded ones away. Retreating wounded units will force him to Pot shot long range while the fresh units move ever closer, this will piss him off.

I've got a few more trikes i'm not willing to share. Just use your head!

i would say nids are a mid to low tier army.

the fact i regularly pound nids with my Grey Knights supports this theory

I'm noticing a trend here. Non-Nids players are saying that 'Nids are easy to beat, While Nid players say it is a tricky but powerful army.

Interesting perspectives all round. Thanks for the posts.

So to generally summarize:

Mid tier
Antitank is still a problem
Some builds are effective
Some combination are very dangerous
Codex has internal balance issues
Codex has unique abilities
Codex requires synergy of units

One of the interesting things about the Tyranid codex, perhaps the most interesting IMHO is that I haven't seen a "definitive build" pattern yet. The Tyranid equivalent of mech marines with 4+ razorbacks and support.

I have seen a wide variety of Tyranid army builds since the codex came out:

All Drop
All Ground
Old School Nid Zilla all monstrous
Flying (Flyrants Hormagaunts Shrikes and Gargoyles)
Wave or Phalanx (Ranks of small bugs, mid bugs and big bugs)
Stealer Shock (Outflank Madness)
Alpha Bugs (All Tyranid Warrriors and Alpha Warriors)
Mawloc Spam

Usually I think a wide variety of lists coming out of a codex makes it a good codex! It's nice to see a range of lists. This also makes it hard to speak in generalities about the codex because the above armies play very differently from each other, for example deep strike patterns and timing being very different from castleing that again being very different from outflank timing and set up etc.

A discussion of the codex effectiveness probably has to include army builds to be empirical.

Here is where I think the details that really determine the fate of the Tyranid Codex are.

Do units in the Tyranid Codex have amazing potential accross the game?

Certainly.

Are there effective synergies?

Certainly.

Why then isn't there an emerging build pattern (or 2)?

I say it is because the Tyranids actually don't do anything particularly well, and everything they have that is potentially very effective is very expensive or requires synergy like Tau.

Without analyzing every build I listed, and of course speaking generally here are the handicaps I think support the argument that Tyranids a low mid tier army in any guise:

No transports vehicles
Monstrous creatures are generally to expensive to be numerous
Insuficient Antitank
Insuficient Range
Limited Psychic defense
Vulnerability to combo charge w/ <X>gaunts + MCs
Over dependence on Synergy units

I think the biggest problem is that what synergy tyranids have is fairly easy to interrupt by the other player. In my opinion the Tyranids are now one of the most unforgiving armies out there if you make a mistake. I do not think this codex is going to age very well. Things could get better or worse depending on what happens with 6th edition but it seems that Cruddace and crew laid a bit of an egg with this codex.

It was a bit comical watching how fast people bailed off the tyranid bandwagon in this area even before the BA came out. On the bright side you will be able to tell who plays tyranids because they love the army etc in about a year.

Vepr wrote:On the bright side you will be able to tell who plays tyranids because they love the army etc in about a year.

I agree, I have seen that in my area too, I think this will be interesting to see, particularly as more codices come out.

Im really liking the bugs. I think that out of all the 5th edition books (demons, orks, marines, guard, wolves, bugs, and blood angels) them and demons require by far the most finesse.

IG and wolves are top tier.
Id put blood angels, orks, and marines right below them, blood angels could ascend depending on if a super build emerges.
Demons and bugs are the lowest, simply for being such unforgiving armies, and requiring lots of synergy.

I wouldnt compare them to any 3rd or 4th edition books, as the rules changes in 5th have changes those armies up fundamentally.