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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Bringing an old list to this forum:

HQ:
Warboss
-- PK, BP, Shoota, 'Eavy Armor, Attack Squig
Big Mek
-- Pk, KFF, 'Eavy Armor

Elites
Kommandoz
-- 14 Boyz, 2x Burnaz
-- Nob w/PK, BP
Kommandoz
-- 14 Boyz, 2x Burnaz
-- Nob w/PK, BP
Kommandoz
-- 14 Boyz, 2x Burnaz
-- Nob w/PK, BP

Troops:
Shoota Boyz
-- 19 Boyz, 1 Big Shoota
-- Nob w/Shoota, BP
Shoota Boyz
-- 19 Boyz, 1 Big Shoota
-- Nob w/Shoota, BP
'Ard Boyz
-- 17 Boyz w/Choppaz
-- Nob w/PK, BP

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon
-- 2x Big Shootaz, Kannon
-- Grot Rigger, Red Paint, Reinforced Ram
Battlewagon
-- 2x Big Shootaz, Kannon
-- Grot Rigger, Red Paint, Reinforced Ram
Battlewagon
-- 2x Big Shootaz, Kannon
-- Grot Rigger, Red Paint, Reinforced Ram, Stikkbomb Chukka


The warboss and big mek ride in a central battlewagon with the 'ard boyz, with the other two battlewagons staying in close with the shootaboyz, so that they have the opportunity to take advantage of that KFF's 4+ cover saves for vehicles. And the Kommandoz, of course, just do their thing-- the burnaz in the kommandoz squads use flamers against 5+ or worse, and power weapons against 4+ or better.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






Ohio

'ard Boyz are too expensive.

All your Nobz should have PK's and if your boyz are riding in transports, they should be slugga/choppa boyz w/ no heavy weapons.

Drop the Rams, get Deffrollas.

You are seriously lacking anti-mech.

Drop the Kannon, you should be moving too fast to fire it. Stikkbomb Chukka should go away too.

Consider Boarding Planks on your Wagons.

Orks W-L-D
27-10-8
Daemons W-L-D
6-5-3
Warboss Lemmy's Speed Freaks: 1730pts painted
+ Skullbearers: 750pts painted
DT:90S++G+MB-I+Pw40k09#+D++A+/hWD-R+++T(T)DM+
My Battle Reports: Orks against: Tau , Tau , Tau  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

I would advise you against putting your Warboss and KFF mek into the same wagon; its putting all your eggs in one basket.

Having boyz mobs without a nob holding a powerklaw is a real mistake. A REAL mistake.

In fact, your list hurts my head. Instead of writing a book about all the problems I have with it, I'm going to copy and paste some general ork advice I've written in the hopes that you'll read it. I'm also going to link two threads worthy of you reading since you apparently are hoping to run mechanized orks in some fashion.

First, the general Ork advice:
----------------------------------------
I'm going to work off of a couple of assumptions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Playing Warhammer 40k is fun.
2. Playing Warhammer 40k and winning is more fun.
3. Playing Warhammer 40k and losing is less fun.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Human nature and natural selection demand that we continually seek to improve ourselves. Having an A type personality probably doesn't hurt this effort, but if you lose a game of 40k and don't reflect on the game with, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" then I can't really talk to you.

If this thought process and those three assumptions *do* apply to you, then read on.

******
Orks are a unique codex. An ork boy is significantly cheaper than just about any other model in 40k, and is basically a platform from which many things spring (other kinds of ork variants - stormboyz, lootas, nobs...). If you read the fluff, every ork starts in the same place, and as they develop, they lean towards on klan/society, which is how they figure out what kind of ork they're going to be.

In other codexes (space marines and their variants being the most prolific), basic troops are well-rounded models. You ever play Final Fight? How about ANY kind of game with character selections? You've got the big, strong guy that's slow...the average Joe....and the weaker but very speedy character. This applies in 40k as well. Space marines are like your average, well-rounded Joe. Orks are NOT. You can't mix and match orks in any order you like to make a generalized list.

This is *not* called power building, its called understanding your codex, how your codex is designed, and using it as such. Every time someone calls "playing a theme" to be "powerbuilding" I want to stab them in the F***** eye. If you look in the Ork codex, do you see the codex writers putting in pictures for the sample armies of some Lootas backing up a squad of meganobs in a trukk, who are advancing next to some buggies and a deffkopta or two?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They even TELL you how to make your army. They tell you what the Ork klans are - Bad Moons, Kult of Speed, Deffskullz, etc.

That kind of thematic army construction is the intent of the Ork codex. That is what makes orks powerful. The ork codex is written so that you can design an army list that is absolutely ridiculously powerful, but it is NOT made up of average Joe units; everything is specialized towards a specific goal. When you build an army list, you should follow the thematic advice given to you in the Codex. PICK a theme. There's a lot of them:

Green Tide. Mechanized Assault. Mechanized Shooting. Ork Gunline (Moar Dakka), Kan-Wall. Dreadz of Fury. Kult of Speed. Outflanking Goodness. Rebel Grotz. Nob Bikers. Super Units. Orky Burnas.

All of those things have something in common - the lists were designed with a theme in mind, and have the synergy to work together towards that goal. When you start combining those themes to make a list, you're being counterintuitive to the very style that the orks were created for.

Remember this: Orks can do anything that any other army can do, and they can do it better than that army. However, orks can only do it one at a time. You can outshoot a Tau Gunline. You can out-assault a khorne army or an army of genestealers. You can put down more templates than IG....whatever your goal in mind is....orks can do it better, but it has to stick to that theme. Orks are not meant to be universal, middle-of-the-line armies.

To give another analogy...if you've ever played an MMO, there are different classes. Fighter, Tank, barbarian, mage, cleric, wizard, hunter, ranger, red mage, death knight, rogue, whatever.....its all based on the game you play. The class you pick sets you on a path for the kind of game you play, the skills you get - they are pre-defined roles.

40k armies fit into that kind of typification. Except for Orks. Orks would be the generic class. You start with a neutral character, with skillpoints to assign, and you can make orks any kind of army you want them to be. People fail with orks because they want some of everything. Instead of making them a fighter, or an archer, or a guardian...and they would be better fighters, archers and guardians than every other type...they split points between all three to make a Figardian. F.A.G for short.

Do you want to excel in something, or be a F.A.G? That's what it boils down to.

Are you a F.A.G?




*EDIT* I'm adding information for the tactics article I'm working on.

If you're running a foot-slogging list, shoota boys are your friend. Slugga boys belong inside vehicles. In fact, I think you should convert your slugga boy mobs into shoota boys. In 5th edition, the shoota boy is the most efficient point purchase across all 40k.

Think on that - for 6 points...SIX POINTS....you get an infantry model with an assault 2 STR4 gun, who is WS4, STR4, T4 on the charge. In terms of math hammer between shoota and slugga boys, it's pretty simple. Slugga boys have +1 attack in close combat, and shoota boys have +1 attack outside of close combat. Since your Orks on the assault are only I3, you're going to strike last meaning that 30 boyz are going to take some casualties before getting their attacks back.

On the flip side, shoota boys get 2 shots before assaulting, and the enemy doesn't get to shoot back first and cause casualties - putting in any kind of hurt before you assault is incredibly valuable. And since it has an 18" range, you can shoot into a unit even when you don't have range to assault this turn. My advice for green tide:

Take all your troops choices as shoota boys. Consider taking a squad of gretchin - you can spread them across your front lines to provide 4+ cover saves for your whole army. Alternatively, you can take a squad of ork boyz to do the same. If you make them 'Ard Boyz they gain considerably in staying power.

Want to get real freaky? Take a squad of 'Ard Boyz, stick Mad Dok Grotsnik with them for a 4+/4+. Spread that unit out 2+ coherence to minimize the damage that blast templates can do, and have the whole thing move+run in front of your army. Your screening unit has 4+ armor saves, 4+ feel no pain, and the rest of your army has 4+ cover saves now. If your points allow it, what really tops off the list is adding some fast attack Stormboyz. You can put them into close combat, or have them multi-assault to shake/stun some tanks/artillery, have them get in fast and tie up enemy units (hello Tau!), or if the situation doesn't call for it, you can leave them behind your screening unit and keep them in reserve to get in where you need supporting assault units at.
---------------------------------------------

Second, here's the 2k list I'm fond of. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279952.page

Third, here's a 2k list I just critiqued; the comments are worth reading so I don't have to do it again. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/295628.page

Fourth, I'm too lazy to do it myself, but do a search on kommandos in the tactica section. Kommandos are awesome if they fit your theme. They don't fit the theme for Battlewagon orks so much.

Fifth, Battlewagons. They're either a delivery mechanism for boyz to an assault or a stationary bunker for Lootas. PUtting shootas in there is a big no-no. You can do a search in the tactics forum for plenty of shoota vs slugga debate, and which type of boyz belong in which scenarios, army lists, etc.

   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Claypool wrote:'ard Boyz are too expensive.
They're well worth it for the survivability bonus you get in close combat.

All your Nobz should have PK's and if your boyz are riding in transports, they should be slugga/choppa boyz w/ no heavy weapons.
I don't see why I'd need to change them from shoota boyz. Indeed, even in an assault, slugga boyz may actually do TOO much damage against some armies... like Guard for example. Killing an entire Guard squad in one phase of assault is suicide. You want to kill the Guard squad in two phases, not one, so that the Guard player can't then focus fire and wipe out that squad.

Drop the Rams, get Deffrollas.
Too expensive. Also, without the Ram, you can't tank shock, making the deff rolla even MORE expensive for what it does.

You are seriously lacking anti-mech.
Maybe. But then, not everyone plays a mech force, and frankly Orks are light on efficient anti-mech anyway.

Drop the Kannon, you should be moving too fast to fire it. Stikkbomb Chukka should go away too.

No thanks. The Kannon allows the battlewagons to fire two guns on the move, and furthermore the blast is rather painful to Guard.

Consider Boarding Planks on your Wagons.
While useful, it's not as helpful as it seems, especially when vehicles are moving around a lot.



Dashofpepper: I freely admit that I ignored everything in your post after you started your generic FAQ. And happily so!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/20 06:08:59


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut






Well thanks for posting a wall of 'My list is so great I'm going to post it for the public to possibly make suggestions... But wait my list is so great nonono your all wrong..." So if don't wish to be receptive to our advice don't post a list, we won't learn anything from it we wouldn't from the other 5-10 similar ork list that come up daily.

On that note, Nobz need PK, Wagon Need rollas and no kannon, and if your wagon(s) had a boarding plank your BigMek wouldn't need EA and you'd keep your KFF bubble bigger.
Not that that stuff is important.....

"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential






Victoria, B.C. Canada

This thread is amusing.



Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.

No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






Ohio

Melissia wrote:
Claypool wrote:'ard Boyz are too expensive.
They're well worth it for the survivability bonus you get in close combat.

Why not drop the armor for a grot squad to hold objectives?
All your Nobz should have PK's and if your boyz are riding in transports, they should be slugga/choppa boyz w/ no heavy weapons.
I don't see why I'd need to change them from shoota boyz. Indeed, even in an assault, slugga boyz may actually do TOO much damage against some armies... like Guard for example. Killing an entire Guard squad in one phase of assault is suicide. You want to kill the Guard squad in two phases, not one, so that the Guard player can't then focus fire and wipe out that squad.

Because with the wagons, you should be moving too fast to fire all those guns and you could use the extra CC attacks.
Drop the Rams, get Deffrollas.
Too expensive. Also, without the Ram, you can't tank shock, making the deff rolla even MORE expensive for what it does.

False, Deffrollas can ram and wreck vehicles
You are seriously lacking anti-mech.
Maybe. But then, not everyone plays a mech force, and frankly Orks are light on efficient anti-mech anyway.

If you are already low on anti-mech, why would you not take any? 5th edition is mech edition. It's da troof.
Drop the Kannon, you should be moving too fast to fire it. Stikkbomb Chukka should go away too.

No thanks. The Kannon allows the battlewagons to fire two guns on the move, and furthermore the blast is rather painful to Guard.

IIRC, if you move combat speed you can only fire one gun, and you should be moving at cruising speed, so no guns.
Consider Boarding Planks on your Wagons.
While useful, it's not as helpful as it seems, especially when vehicles are moving around a lot.

I consider 5 S10 attacks against rear armor very helpful. If you're concerned about vehicle moving, get Grabba Klaws.
Melissia wrote:Dashofpepper: I freely admit that I ignored everything in your post after you started your generic FAQ. And happily so!

Dash has some great tips, I highly recommend his advice.

Orks W-L-D
27-10-8
Daemons W-L-D
6-5-3
Warboss Lemmy's Speed Freaks: 1730pts painted
+ Skullbearers: 750pts painted
DT:90S++G+MB-I+Pw40k09#+D++A+/hWD-R+++T(T)DM+
My Battle Reports: Orks against: Tau , Tau , Tau  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Melissia wrote:
Dashofpepper: I freely admit that I ignored everything in your post after you started your generic FAQ. And happily so!


Awesome!

So you have a subpar, uncompetitive list. I would GLEEFULLY match up against you in any tournament, and have every confidence that you would get tabled. And with your horrible list, instead of taking criticism on your selections and combinations to improve, you take them as an opportunity to apply bad logic, misinformation and defend your poor choices.

I critique lists all the time. I write extensive notes on tweaking, fixing, editing, shifting....the thread I linked you was just that. YOUR list on the other hand, I didn't write extensively in because its totality is SO BADLY assembled that I can't even critique you on what to tweak for effectiveness, the entire thing has to go back to the drawing board, and you need to learn about thematic list building and what the point of the ork codex is.

And....you come back with "lol, ignored what you wrote happily!"

Cool beans dude.

I have an idea. You know what Vassal is right? Why don't you meet on me on Vassal for a game of 40k with this list for a 1750 game. I'll play at a point disadvantage to make things a little more fair, AND if you beat me, I'll buy you $50 worth of your choice of stuff from The WarStore.

And perhaps best of all.....if you can beat me, you can come back to Dakka and dethrone me and tell everyone that my snarky attitude is unjustified while yours is.

   
Made in us
Sneaky Kommando




Hemet california

Melissa wake up and realize that the people in this forum do not have to help you, even though you asked for it in the first place.

do us all a favor and go back to playing d and d (if they will have you)


dash of pepper thats a great tac post alot of stuff in there I never considered.

Diplomacy is the act of saying good doggie until you can find a big enough gun!!!
 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential






Victoria, B.C. Canada

Why don't you guys just agree to disagree instead of being so overtly hostile?




Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.

No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Dropping the quotes, quote spam is rather annoying to read through, so let's just use numbers.

1: Mostly for flavor reasons. I can see dropping the 'ard boyz to get more upgrades on the battlewagons, but for grots? I really can't see that working out for a Blood Axez list. Maybe for a Goffs list...

2: Maybe, except that they're a shooty squad.

3: Yes... but not tank shock. I've won plenty of games by Tank Shocking Marines off the board.

4: Eh, that depends on if you are fighting lots of "competitive" armies or not, and even then, it depends on the meta of hte competitive armies. People exaggerate the ubiquity of mech.

5: Kannons using the frag round is strength four, and therefor a defensive weapon. Yes, I know, it doesn't make sense-- the main gun is the defensive weapon according to the rules. But them's the breaks!

6: You keep adding on more and more to the cost...

7: But it's so... wall of text. And the wording is obnoxious, moreso than my average post even.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/20 17:39:44


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CT, USA

Melissia wrote:Bringing an old list to this forum:

The warboss and big mek ride in a central battlewagon with the 'ard boyz, with the other two battlewagons staying in close with the shootaboyz, so that they have the opportunity to take advantage of that KFF's 4+ cover saves for vehicles. And the Kommandoz, of course, just do their thing-- the burnaz in the kommandoz squads use flamers against 5+ or worse, and power weapons against 4+ or better.


I'd be interested in giving suggestions for this list, but based on the previous posts, I'm not sure you've grasped the general concept on the Army List section.

What do you want us to do with this list? You are apparently not in favor of having suggestions for improvement made, so I'm genuinely curious what you're after here.

...one amongst untold billions.
DR:90S+G+M+B++I+Pw40k05+D++A++/hWD318R++T(G)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I'm mostly looking to do a fluffy list, and see peoples' opinions on it. The only reason I didn' really bother to read Dashofpepper's post is because quite frankly it was too damn long, and furthermore it was copy-pasted from somewhere else so it gave me even less reason to want to read it.

Also, I'm amusing myself by seeing just how differently the various forums on the net react to the list. This is the ONLY forum where someone has absolutely hated it, I shoiuld note

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






Ohio

IIRC, Deffrollas can both tank shock and ram.

You seem so concerned about cost regarding Grabba Klaws and Boarding Planks when you are so willing to spend 72 extra pts on an overpriced unit. They would cost 30pts in your list and vastly improve the effectiveness of your wagons.

I understand you wanting to write a fluffy list. I myself have a Goff list that I like very much, but originally I was trying to run a Kan Wall with slugga/choppa boyz and rationalizing it by the fluff. After a while, losing with a fluffy army gets old, so I wrote a list that could be competitive and still fit the fluff. This is what you need to do with this list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/20 18:10:06


Orks W-L-D
27-10-8
Daemons W-L-D
6-5-3
Warboss Lemmy's Speed Freaks: 1730pts painted
+ Skullbearers: 750pts painted
DT:90S++G+MB-I+Pw40k09#+D++A+/hWD-R+++T(T)DM+
My Battle Reports: Orks against: Tau , Tau , Tau  
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Really? I suppose I need to update my Ork FAQ pdf then...

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Inside a pretty, pretty pain cave... won't you come inside?

Even without a ram or a deffrolla, the battlewagon is still a TANK and could always tank shock. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise. Trukks are the only things that need rams to be able to shock.

While I appreciate the interesting take with the kommandos, I don't see how this challenges anything mechanized or shooty. It's a mobile force... that's not assault-oriented and throws out a bunch of S4 shots that can be stopped by any glancing hit (easy to do on the long BW models). Kommandos, but no Snikrot, so footsloggers with no range and that die easily to small arms fire appear at the table edges and probably threaten nothing if the opponent simply keeps to the center. No ranged anti-vehicle, limited power klaws with no boarding planks or deffrollas... how do you expect to stop any transports or tanks? You may not always face a mechanized force, but you have no chance if you face one. DE, Eldar, IG, Razorback spam, Ork kans, etc. all table you.

Sorry, I realize that it's not about being "ultra competitive" all the time, but I think you have a big uphill battle here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/20 20:22:05


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Melissia wrote:I'm mostly looking to do a fluffy list, and see peoples' opinions on it. The only reason I didn' really bother to read Dashofpepper's post is because quite frankly it was too damn long, and furthermore it was copy-pasted from somewhere else so it gave me even less reason to want to read it.



The belief that thoughtful advice given to one person applies to no one else is criminal. Since long strings of words are antithetical to your grasping abilities, I made it short and sweet: Instead of me trying to fix your list, lets play a game of 40k where I'm at a point disadvantage against your craptastic list here. Let me personally demonstrate all the flaws you're unwilling to read about, and I'll financially back the endeavor as well.

You have nothing to lose except pride when you're soundly beaten on and put in your place.

When do you want to play?

   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Skarboy wrote:Even without a ram or a deffrolla, the battlewagon is still a TANK and could always tank shock. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise. Trukks are the only things that need rams to be able to shock.

I suppose I misread their entry . Thanks!

While I appreciate the interesting take with the kommandos, [snip]

If I drop the 'ard boyz for regular boyz, I can probably afford a couple more PKs, and the deff rollas instead of rams. I'll play around with it and give an updated list later.

Sorry, I realize that it's not about being "ultra competitive" all the time, but I think you have a big uphill battle here.
That's fine, and I'm quite used to it. I play Sisters and footslogging Guard (supported by sentinels and LRBTs), as well. I'm perfectly fine with an uphill battle.

Dashofpepper wrote:[snip]
Oh please...

This is not an e-peen contest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/20 21:36:14


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Melissia wrote:This is not an e-peen contest.


It's certainly looking like one.

This thread is done. Too much snarkiness from pretty much everyone involved.

 
   
 
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