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Aduro wrote:

amenzer wrote:If you have a 12 year old walking into a GW store with his parents and looking at the spiky, rapey, killy De models and codex how many 12 year olds and more importantly parents are suppoting that hobby willl come back.

And yet the still have the spiky, rapey, killy chaos models and demons with bare boobies exposed sitting on the store shelves.

I haven't checked too closely, but I believe the new plastic Daemonettes cover their boobs, unlike the previous Juan Diaz Daemonettes.

But then, when you look at the boobworm, Marauders, and Ogre Bulls, it's clear that GW isn't afraid to show a model with exposed nipples. Just not massed nipples on "feminine" models.

amenzer wrote:Well heres the thing about DE and this has been confirmed by unnamed GW employes(not redshirts) the reason they don't carry them on the shelves is their marketing strategy has gone younger in recent years. If you have a 12 year old walking into a GW store with his parents and looking at the spiky, rapey, killy De models and codex how many 12 year olds and more importantly parents are suppoting that hobby willl come back.

That said I understand that 40k in the early days more than now was/is a dark and brutal world where killing is first and foremost, but the company has adopted a more family friendly approach in the past few years.

I believe DE will get a new dex, i think it will be more family friendly, the models will not be so spiky and evil and it will come out. Its evidenced by the fact that they are putting out WD stuff and other stuff for the DE that they want to continue with the army, that combined with the seemingly huge outrage against squats disappearing and a lack of non MEQ armies if you count the SM releases seperately, I think that there will be a new dex.

I'm gonna need more salt, thanks.

amenzer wrote:Well heres the thing about DE and this has been confirmed by unnamed GW employes(not redshirts) the reason they don't carry them on the shelves is their marketing strategy has gone younger in recent years. If you have a 12 year old walking into a GW store with his parents and looking at the spiky, rapey, killy De models and codex how many 12 year olds and more importantly parents are suppoting that hobby willl come back.

That said I understand that 40k in the early days more than now was/is a dark and brutal world where killing is first and foremost, but the company has adopted a more family friendly approach in the past few years.

I believe DE will get a new dex, i think it will be more family friendly, the models will not be so spiky and evil and it will come out. Its evidenced by the fact that they are putting out WD stuff and other stuff for the DE that they want to continue with the army, that combined with the seemingly huge outrage against squats disappearing and a lack of non MEQ armies if you count the SM releases seperately, I think that there will be a new dex.

I thought DE were just made a direct sales exclusive due to the fact that they weren't selling as well as the other armies.

amenzer wrote:I believe DE will get a new dex, i think it will be more family friendly, the models will not be so spiky and evil and it will come out. Its evidenced by the fact that they are putting out WD stuff and other stuff for the DE that they want to continue with the army, that combined with the seemingly huge outrage against squats disappearing and a lack of non MEQ armies if you count the SM releases seperately, I think that there will be a new dex.

I love squats, really, but the 'huge outrage' is just a handful of people shouting very loudly. They aren't that substantial a part of the warhammer community, GW could easily wind down the Dark Eldar and get rid of them if they wished.

derek wrote:I thought DE were just made a direct sales exclusive due to the fact that they weren't selling as well as the other armies.

DING-DING-DING!!!

We have winnah!

JohnHwangDD wrote:And if you like Dark Eldar, then you should pray that GW never does a major revamp to the rules that requires all-new Codices. Because if they do, you *will* be Squatted.

Oh you mean like that 5th Edition rules revamp thing we just barely got, wherein the Dark Eldar army was represented with a brand new vignette, artwork and description with all the other playable armies' splash pages?

I also couldn't help but notice that the Inquisition was not represented at all. Hopefully that means GW is wising up and squatting some of the slowed, superfluous Space Marine clone factions...

As per the op, there are tons of projections but they're all conjecture right now. If any of them turn out to be right it will have been a lucky guess. DE might come sooner, might come later. Most of these projections are merely people trying to push the Dark Eldar release back by sheer force of will, so they can have their new army release first. Others are trying to be logical, but it comes down to a solid lack of facts. We really don't even know with certainty what's coming after SMs.

No, I mean like the jump from 2nd to 3rd, in which existing Codices were totally incompatible with the new rulebook. 5th is merely a well-needed cleanup of all the 3E / 4E FAQs, along with a couple tweaks to push Troops. But it's not like you can't field a 3E Codex according to the current rules. DE are proof of that.

If GW Squats the Inquisition, I guess I'd have to play my Sisters as "counts" as SM, what with them being in Power Armour and toting Bolters. I think I could live with that.

As for what we know, I believe I forwarded the release schedule that BoLS posted. So actually, we have a pretty good idea of what's coming. And DE aren't until late next year, with the ever-present note that they might get "bumped" until later (i.e. 2010, if ever).

amenzer wrote:Well heres the thing about DE and this has been confirmed by unnamed GW employes(not redshirts) the reason they don't carry them on the shelves is their marketing strategy has gone younger in recent years. If you have a 12 year old walking into a GW store with his parents and looking at the spiky, rapey, killy De models and codex how many 12 year olds and more importantly parents are suppoting that hobby willl come back.

That said I understand that 40k in the early days more than now was/is a dark and brutal world where killing is first and foremost, but the company has adopted a more family friendly approach in the past few years.

I believe DE will get a new dex, i think it will be more family friendly, the models will not be so spiky and evil and it will come out. Its evidenced by the fact that they are putting out WD stuff and other stuff for the DE that they want to continue with the army, that combined with the seemingly huge outrage against squats disappearing and a lack of non MEQ armies if you count the SM releases seperately, I think that there will be a new dex.

Heah, that explains why they never came out with a Codexeamons....er wait....They did!

GW worried about family friendly, please ! Common, Deamons is about as family friendly as Hustler PPV meets Saw III.

wyomingfox wrote:
Heah, that explains why they never came out with a Codexeamons....er wait....They did!

GW worried about family friendly, please ! Common, Deamons is about as family friendly as Hustler PPV meets Saw III.

Not quite true. I think only parents who follow some sort of faith will really be against buying demons, whereas a majority (and I am guessing here) of parents will be against buying toys with boobs for their sons.

The concept of demons may not be family friendly, but their presentation is (friendlier, at least).

John, you seem positively elated at the thought of DE not getting an update. Why do you take so much enjoyment from people not getting an update 10 years?

Do you hate DE and DE players that much?

BYE

Rated G wrote:

Not quite true. I think only parents who follow some sort of faith will really be against buying demons, whereas a majority (and I am guessing here) of parents will be against buying toys with boobs for their sons.

The concept of demons may not be family friendly, but their presentation is (friendlier, at least).

Yeah, no real faith issues here in America ....

I agree that GW did present the models in a friendlier way, but then the same could be said for DE (they don't have exposed breasts either). However, the codex fluff still has the excess of Slanesh and the the mass murdering of Khorn, neither of which are any more family friendly than the murdering/raping DE (which was my original point). The only real arguement worth considering is that most moms won't bother reading the codex or going online and researching the subject...again this would apply to DE as well.

So all that said, I doubt that GW will change the fluff concerning DE given the precedence of Ceamons.

I would like to thank GW for producing plastic daemonettes without exposed boobs as now my girlfriend will never get into the hobby ever again.

H.B.M.C. wrote:John, you seem positively elated at the thought of DE not getting an update. Why do you take so much enjoyment from people not getting an update 10 years?

Do you hate DE and DE players that much?

BYE

The Dark Eldar. Damn them. I've had...a bad experience with Dark Eldar.

They came from nowhere. Literally nowhere. At one point they were not there, but the next they came from this portal. They..they attacked us. They raped my father and killed my mother. They set fire to the entire city. These Dark Eldar. They deserve any hate they receive.

This is great news, now it's up to all of us to keep up the pressure on GW and make it clear WE DO NOT WANT DARK ELDAR.

Let them be a minor unit in Codex Lost and the Damned, the codex people actually want.

I am hoping they get a new codex, they need one. We need more DE players!

And a lot less SM rejects running around.

And I am hoping the DE get a Codex...

... *AFTER* every other army that outsells them gets their Codices first.

As I've stated above, 40k doesn't need Dark Eldar pirates. The DE add nothing to the 40k universe Fluff that wouldn't be better done as Chaos Eldar, and they add nothing to the 40k gaming experience that isn't already covered by CWE or Tau.

But that said, DE really are such a poor concept, I'd much rather see GW put their time and resources into a propr LatD / Traitor Guard Codex as suggested by KK. After all, aren't LatD / Traitor Guard are supposed to be the most numerous force that the Imperium fights against...

Plus they HAVE a codex, you can use it in tournaments, you can order it, you can play with it.

L&D for example have nothing! Just a campaign list that points to an out of date chaos codex.

I am hoping they get a new codex, they need one. We need more DE players!

And a lot less SM rejects running around!

Oh snap! Boo on Space Marines!

And actually I have a new Dark Eldar Codex. To get it, I had to sacrifice my own genitals on the altar of Slaanesh after raping my own mother after allowing her to be raped by a daemon.

But the codex is pretty sweet.

Scotty...you scare me.

As for helping the thread. My shop still sells atlot of DE. and the have tons more in the back, at least thats what is was like last week. But I do hope Guard get theirs first...silly Eldar Emos.


(no offense to any real Emos...)

(was that offensive?)

Buddy trying to start DE and has to wait for it to be ordered, new codex might get some stuff on the shelf and let people know it exists.


And Emos are there for your entertainment, you can make fun of them all you want, you don't even have hurt them, they do it them selves!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, I'll step up for a gentleman's wager in the amount of ONE AMERICAN DOLLAR. I propose a schedule of payments as follows:
- If DE get a new Codex authored by Phil Kelly and supporting minis by Jes Goodwin within 2 years of the last LAGD, I will pay you $1 (one) dollar.
- If DE don't get any Codex before October 10, 2010 (10/10/10), you pay me $1 (one) dollar.
- Otherwise, if DE get a Codex authored by someone other than Phil Kelly or if the supporting minis are sculpted by someone other than Jes Goodwin, or the DE release more than 2 years after the last LAGD but before October 10, 2010 (10/10/10), the bet is a push.

As far as I'm concerned the DE artwork in the current 5th Edition rulebook carries no more weight than the pictures of the Hrud and Donorian Fiend in the 3rd Edition rulebook.

I think it's a mystery because GW isn't really working on anything, so they're just blowing smoke. Again. I mean, it's great that you have faith in GW, but what makes you think that *this* time, things are going to be different?

Deal. But if you're so sure why not make it $20, $50, $100 or even more?

Name the price and I'm good for it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:And there is actual proof of them working on the DE, or have people already forgotten about those WIP greens of the two Haemonculi seen at Games Day Spain? (I think it was that one)

Heh. The Juan Diaz test pieces? Yeah, we already debunked that myth.

Nope. He's talking about the Jes Goodwin miniatures. You're talking to the man who has his army prominently featured in the Apocalypse book and who has regularly gotten his hands on Jes's miniatures long before release.

A complete new line of Dark Eldar models are an absolute certainty.

Only the exact timing of the release is still unknown.

yakface wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, I'll step up for a gentleman's wager in the amount of ONE AMERICAN DOLLAR. I propose a schedule of payments as follows:
- If DE get a new Codex authored by Phil Kelly and supporting minis by Jes Goodwin within 2 years of the last LAGD, I will pay you $1 (one) dollar.
- If DE don't get any Codex before October 10, 2010 (10/10/10), you pay me $1 (one) dollar.
- Otherwise, if DE get a Codex authored by someone other than Phil Kelly or if the supporting minis are sculpted by someone other than Jes Goodwin, or the DE release more than 2 years after the last LAGD but before October 10, 2010 (10/10/10), the bet is a push.

As far as I'm concerned the DE artwork in the current 5th Edition rulebook carries no more weight than the pictures of the Hrud and Donorian Fiend in the 3rd Edition rulebook.

I think it's a mystery because GW isn't really working on anything, so they're just blowing smoke. Again. I mean, it's great that you have faith in GW, but what makes you think that *this* time, things are going to be different?

Deal. But if you're so sure why not make it $20, $50, $100 or even more?

Name the price and I'm good for it.

You seem to misunderstand my relationship with The GW Hobby. 40k is pure entertainment, and I aim to play as cheaply as possible. Now, if I looked at 40k as a business, I might bet more. But for me, the fun is in having the wager at all.

That, and being able to talk more smack.

yakface wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:And there is actual proof of them working on the DE, or have people already forgotten about those WIP greens of the two Haemonculi seen at Games Day Spain? (I think it was that one)

Heh. The Juan Diaz test pieces? Yeah, we already debunked that myth.

Nope. He's talking about the Jes Goodwin miniatures.

You're talking to the man who has his army prominently featured in the Apocalypse book and who has regularly gotten his hands on Jes's miniatures long before release.

A complete new line of Dark Eldar models are an absolute certainty.

Only the exact timing of the release is still unknown.

Nope, they're Juan Diaz' test pieces.

But if you want to take GD Spain (2/18/2008) as the start of the 2-year mark, that'd be OK with me. According to recent GW policy, they don't preview until 3 months prior to release. Of course, that was 8 months ago, so one would think that they'd have released by now if they really were working on DE and those really were harbingers of the new line.

Or perhaps, GW has a long-awaited full army re-release that they're just sitting on but not monetizing as new sales... Do you really think GW is that crazy? GW is actually going to burn 2 consecutive 40k release windows on "wave 2" releases when they could instead finally release all-new Dark Eldar?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

yakface wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:And there is actual proof of them working on the DE, or have people already forgotten about those WIP greens of the two Haemonculi seen at Games Day Spain? (I think it was that one)

Heh. The Juan Diaz test pieces? Yeah, we already debunked that myth.

Nope. He's talking about the Jes Goodwin miniatures.

You're talking to the man who has his army prominently featured in the Apocalypse book and who has regularly gotten his hands on Jes's miniatures long before release.

A complete new line of Dark Eldar models are an absolute certainty.

Only the exact timing of the release is still unknown.

Nope, they're Juan Diaz' test pieces.

But if you want to take GD Spain (2/18/2008) as the start of the 2-year mark, that'd be OK with me. According to recent GW policy, they don't preview until 3 months prior to release. Of course, that was 8 months ago, so one would think that they'd have released by now if they really were working on DE and those really were harbingers of the new line.

Or perhaps, GW has a long-awaited full army re-release that they're just sitting on but not monetizing as new sales... Do you really think GW is that crazy? GW is actually going to burn 2 consecutive 40k release windows on "wave 2" releases when they could instead finally release all-new Dark Eldar?

Whoops, my bad on that. Without even reading who you quoted I thought you were responding to Moloch (which is whom I was referring to). You are, of course right about the Juan Diaz test sculpts, but those have nothing to do with the current work being done on the line.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And I am hoping the DE get a Codex...

... *AFTER* every other army that outsells them gets their Codices first.

As I've stated above, 40k doesn't need Dark Eldar pirates. The DE add nothing to the 40k universe Fluff that wouldn't be better done as Chaos Eldar, and they add nothing to the 40k gaming experience that isn't already covered by CWE or Tau.

But that said, DE really are such a poor concept, I'd much rather see GW put their time and resources into a propr LatD / Traitor Guard Codex as suggested by KK. After all, aren't LatD / Traitor Guard are supposed to be the most numerous force that the Imperium fights against...

Every army that outsells them *HAS* gotten their codices first... Some twice over, in fact... That's kinda what's being talked about here, and what DE players are indignant about...

And no, the most numerous enemy of the imperium would be a toss up between orks and tyranids... In fact if you read the extensive timeline provided in the 5th edition rulebook, you'll read all about encounters with orks, tyranids, eldar, dark eldar, tau, chaos and necrons. What you won't find, however, is any mention whatsoever of traitor guard/latd encounter. It's almost as though they... Don't exist. At least not as a threat significant enough to warrant mention, let alone it's own codex.

Did it never occur to you that maybe Dark Eldar need a new codex *BECAUSE* they currently don't add much to the universe? I bet Rick Priestly has been turning down rewrites because his vision of the new Dark Eldar includes them playing a much greater role as enslavers of the galaxy. And please don't ever say Chaos Eldar again. GW decided a long time ago that it's just plain slowed to make a chaos version of all the armies... Probably why they abandoned LatD.

Come on, honestly... You're denying the obviously inevitable and impending re-release of the Dark Eldar, while crossing your fingers for a LatD codex?... Really??? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction: There will be no LatD codex. Ever. GW is struggling to keep up with what it already has. The most LatD can ever hope for is a White Dwarf printing of whatever negligible differences set it apart from IG.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As I've stated above, 40k doesn't need Dark Eldar pirates. The DE add nothing to the 40k universe Fluff that wouldn't be better done as Chaos Eldar, and they add nothing to the 40k gaming experience that isn't already covered by CWE or Tau.

But that said, DE really are such a poor concept, I'd much rather see GW put their time and resources into a propr LatD / Traitor Guard Codex as suggested by KK. After all, aren't LatD / Traitor Guard are supposed to be the most numerous force that the Imperium fights against...

You must play a different version of Warhammer 40,000 than what Games Workshop releases, because the Dark Eldar are significantly different on the table top than CWE, and even more different than Tau! And do you honestly think Traitor Guard/LatD would be something significantly different from what's already out there? While there would obviously be some changes, and I think the fluff is amusing (LatD especially) and fun to see on the table, it's nothing remarkable from a play-perspective.

DE fill a fairly unique niche in the table top experience....very fast, good firepower and melee, extremely fragile. I don't care much about the fluff, but the tactical opportunities afforded by this list can't be found elsewhere and could add a fair amount of depth to a slowly narrowing field of enemies. I think most players enjoy playing against new and different army lists as opposed to more of the same, and DE could certainly fill that role well.

Grimaldi - DE play like guys on rides who jump out and massacre stuff in CC. While they do this, their long-ranged bros shoot stuff with their cannons. All the while being kinda strong, fast, and fragile. Sounds like a marine army full of scouts (and scout transports) to me. Marines solve everything.

I think most players enjoy playing against new and different army lists as opposed to more of the same

Hogwash! In my local GW everyone loves playing against Marines. Besides, didn't you know that with 50 flavors of marines, they practically play like completely different armies??

I really am not sure why people are so upset about LatD not having its own codex. In the original list, virtually every entry had a guard/inquisition/marine analog. In fact, the Imperial Armor list for traitors almost completely mirrors the IG Codex. At the end of the day traitor guard are still guard.

I am excited about a new DE codex. They deserve it. The original model line is dated, incomplete, and inconsistent-which probably led to it getting moved to direct sales for selling poorly. It will certainly play differently from any army out there.

Who knows when Space Wolves will ever return. I have about 4k points sitting on a shelf waiting to make a return to the GT circuit, but I certainly think DE need to come first.

Brice

Grimaldi wrote: And do you honestly think Traitor Guard/LatD would be something significantly different from what's already out there? While there would obviously be some changes, and I think the fluff is amusing (LatD especially) and fun to see on the table, it's nothing remarkable from a play-perspective.

Yep I do. The Guard is mostly a static gun line backed by tanks. Chaos Cults (my perfered name) would focus on infiltrating fire teams, human waves of pathetic cultists, rock hard mutants and savage demon packs.

Plus, as you said the modeling and fluff opportunities would be endless with nearly any human or humanish model able to play a role. Chaos Cults would allow for a lot of originality and and conversion while Dark Eldar would basically look a like but be painted different colors.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yep I do. The Guard is mostly a static gun line backed by tanks. Chaos Cults (my perfered name) would focus on infiltrating fire teams, human waves of pathetic cultists, rock hard mutants and savage demon packs.

Plus, as you said the modeling and fluff opportunities would be endless with nearly any human or humanish model able to play a role. Chaos Cults would allow for a lot of originality and and conversion while Dark Eldar would basically look a like but be painted different colors.

And you can't do that with the current codex? Granted, some of the units in the current list are poor choices from a cost/effectiveness perspective, but you could basically do it:

infiltrating fire teams = units with light infantry
human waves of pathetic cultists = conscripts
rock hard mutants = ogryns
savage demon packs = rough riders? (basically beasts with S5 I5 power weapons on the charge!)

Obviously, a whole separate codex would add some nuance and such, but really, how much different would it be? Looking at your description, it would be the perfect army, with no standard theme like the other armies have.

Cheap horde troops? Check, conscripts
Expensive elite troops? Yup, chaos marines or "rock hard mutants"
Melee monsters? Good (demons)
Heavy vehicles/tanks? Check (IG stuff)
Light armor/transports? Check (IG stuff)
Shooty/high firepower units (IG stuff)
Special deployment stuff (IG stuff, infiltrate, drop troops, scout walkers)

Every other army has an overarching theme to it, with some kinds of strengths/weaknesses. What you're proposing does away with that, and is basically the master codex to design whatever you want. While that kind of freedom is appealing in some ways, I don't think it's what the game designers have in mind.

DE do fill a unique role, tactically and fluff-wise, that can't be emulated by any other list (the all scout marine assault mentioned above notwithstanding!).

Every other non imperial army has strengths and weaknesses you mean.
Thanks to being able to ally with inquisition, you can build an army like the way you've just described using IG and Daemonhunters. Or IG and Witchhunters.
(Not a bad thing)
I'd prefer to see Traitor Gaurd before I saw Dark Eldar, but my sense of fair play says those poor sods who bought into Dark Eldar deserve the codex more.