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It's a perfectly valid option at a FLGS. It's unacceptable in a tournament setting.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.

Not nearly as much damage as GW does by being the owners.

 JimOnMars wrote:

I get where you are coming from. But asking other players to reimburse you before you'll play one of your other armies? That seems kind of odd. Eldar are broken. It is not our fault. Asking for money to keep your broken list off the table isn't really fair, is it?

If it's your table, then you can do what you like with it. At the FLGS? Not your table.

I also wouldn't play at or give money to a place that bans Forge World, even though I own a single model from it that cost me all of $20. My list is and always has been Illic, Pathfinder Rangers, Guardians, a Falcon and some Dark Eldar for Reavers and a Raider. No Wraithknight, no Jetbikes yet, no more than one Wave Serpent and most of the time that had a Bright Lance turret. But this thread isn't asking about what list do you being, it is about banning Eldar. So you are explicitly saying that the list above that has zero cheese in it, no overpowered units, no spam, the hardest thing being a Dark Eldar squad with Farseer support, should be banned for the sole reason that it is Eldar. You didn't ask if my list was broken. You just want to ban it for the Faction on the Dataslate.

The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.

Martel732 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.

I didn't play before 6th edition, so I can't say anything about them being overpowered for too long. But the only things wrong with the 6th edition codex were the Serpent Shield and the Wraithknight being undercosted.

Besides, your point is moot. Spess Muhreens have always been the top sellers.

 Vaktathi wrote:
What's worse is that this isn't even the first time they've done this with Eldar. The 3E reboot was in large part because of the 2E Eldar codex.

All second edition codices were invalidated by the release of third. The power level of the codex had nothing to do with it. Furthermore the third edition book (AKA Starcannons/Bright Lances) was one of the strongest Eldar books.

All the armies were nasty in second edition, at least the ones that had a codex. Second was a whole different game, made by people who cared about the game and not the current " new models are AWESOMETASTIC BUYBUYBUY!!!!" Set of designers.

This will never work, you're fooling yourself if you think you can stop people from feeding into GWs gak. Hurt them by playing something else entirely.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then.

That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.

It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.

Yes, I agree.

Unlike the majority on Dakka, I don't really have a problem with the new Eldar codex. I think the new Eldar dex is a buff -- like the Necron dex was -- but it's not game breaking or fun-breaking. If certain units end up being unbalanced and cause a lot of problems, I'm sure my friends in casual play will not have an issue making minor adjustments; and in competitive play, I'm sure that the tournament will put limits on things that are abusive.

The only people that "Operation Pitchfork" makes sense to is the nonexistent gaming population which demands the game be played RAW, is hypercompetitive, owns all the right models, AND has people who are willing to play against them.

I think a lot of people on the interwebs simply wanted an Eldar nerf -- just like they wanted a Necron nerf, and that didn't happen. GW simply wrote rules that encourage people to buy miniatures for an army that has 80% out of date models, and undercosted rules for a brand new box they put out.

To me, it hardly matters, because just like D&D rules we didn't like... we just changed them. HIGH MAJIKK!! At least it isn't like a Blizzard game, where a round of nerfs or buffs could render your 3,000 hour investment into a character totally useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.

I would actually disagree. Out of every playable faction other than Sisters.. they have the most outdated models, with no replacement in sight. Imperium get fresh models, like every third month lol.

The overpowered codices are just a way of making people buy models that they otherwise would never purchase, hehehe.

 Talys wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then.

That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.

It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.

Yes, I agree.

Unlike the majority on Dakka, I don't really have a problem with the new Eldar codex. I think the new Eldar dex is a buff -- like the Necron dex was -- but it's not game breaking or fun-breaking. If certain units end up being unbalanced and cause a lot of problems, I'm sure my friends in casual play will not have an issue making minor adjustments; and in competitive play, I'm sure that the tournament will put limits on things that are abusive.

The only people that "Operation Pitchfork" makes sense to is the nonexistent gaming population which demands the game be played RAW, is hypercompetitive, owns all the right models, AND has people who are willing to play against them.

I think a lot of people on the interwebs simply wanted an Eldar nerf -- just like they wanted a Necron nerf, and that didn't happen. GW simply wrote rules that encourage people to buy miniatures for an army that has 80% out of date models, and undercosted rules for a brand new box they put out.

How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?

The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.

The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.

You don't need to rub Eldar out entirely for the tournament scene, which GW doesn't give a damn about in the first place.

A few sensible restrictions would make them playable. 1 heavy weapon (SL or Shuriken Cannon) per 3 bikes, Range Str. D weapons --> S10, things like that.

Standout Buffs (not including formations):
-Scorpions get stealth and shrouded on a unit which can contain karendras and another Initiative hitting powerfist.
-Hawks which can haywire a flyer.
-Wraithguard get st D
-Wraithblades are cheaper and get rage
-Wraithknights are guargantuan with stD
-Crimson Hunter cheaper
-Dire Avengers overwatch at bs2
-Jetbikes get scatterlasers for 10pts
-Hemlock got a ton of upgrades

Standout nerfs:

-Serpshield is 24" one use 2d6 st6 ignores cover
-Wraithguard and Blades cannot be taken as troops with a spirit seer.

This is on a dex which was already statistically the best dex in the game in terms of results.
How on earth Talys can you not see that this is more than just a slight buff?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.

I didn't play before 6th edition, so I can't say anything about them being overpowered for too long. But the only things wrong with the 6th edition codex were the Serpent Shield and the Wraithknight being undercosted.

Besides, your point is moot. Spess Muhreens have always been the top sellers.

Sellers, but far, far from the top list.

Played against them yesterday morning... Hurt my grey knights a lot, and grey knights aren't weak.

If people choose to play Eldar because they like Eldar you shouldn't stop them... But they are frustrating and no matter how hard I tried it always seems to be a losing battle from turn 1 onwards, they have more kit, special rules and other toys.

They are an army that adds a lot of flavour though and maybe a toned down version of them would be better for everyone? If everyone played IOM armies 40k would be a very dull place.

 Talys wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then.

That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.

It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.

Yes, I agree.

Unlike the majority on Dakka, I don't really have a problem with the new Eldar codex. I think the new Eldar dex is a buff -- like the Necron dex was -- but it's not game breaking or fun-breaking. If certain units end up being unbalanced and cause a lot of problems, I'm sure my friends in casual play will not have an issue making minor adjustments; and in competitive play, I'm sure that the tournament will put limits on things that are abusive.

The only people that "Operation Pitchfork" makes sense to is the nonexistent gaming population which demands the game be played RAW, is hypercompetitive, owns all the right models, AND has people who are willing to play against them.

I think a lot of people on the interwebs simply wanted an Eldar nerf -- just like they wanted a Necron nerf, and that didn't happen. GW simply wrote rules that encourage people to buy miniatures for an army that has 80% out of date models, and undercosted rules for a brand new box they put out.

To me, it hardly matters, because just like D&D rules we didn't like... we just changed them. HIGH MAJIKK!! At least it isn't like a Blizzard game, where a round of nerfs or buffs could render your 3,000 hour investment into a character totally useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.

I would actually disagree. Out of every playable faction other than Sisters.. they have the most outdated models, with no replacement in sight. Imperium get fresh models, like every third month lol.

The overpowered codices are just a way of making people buy models that they otherwise would never purchase, hehehe.

What I personally find most hilarious & sad about this whole, "OMG! Ban Eldar 'cause they'z brokenzzz!11!" mentality is that I experience the exact opposite when Grey Knights in 5th utterly bent every single Daemon army in existence over backwards, and fed it to us strait up the poop-shute...

Everywhere I went, GK's were in abundance, and with a single 10 man unit, they could make the game 0 fun and near 0 odds of me even getting close to them. With 30 Warp Quake models, I couldn't even legally deploy a single model on the gakking table.
Yet for almost 2 years, all I and every other Daemon player got was a veritable litany of either "suck it up and learn to play noob!" up to "they're daemonhunters, so it's 100% balanced & fluffy that they auto-win against Daemons"

How hypocritical players are... It's fine and super fluffy for an Imperial force to be utterly bonkers and fully invalidate my entire collection to the point I can't even play a game, but when a Xenos force gets a strong book with a handful of bonkers unit combos, suddenly we should be burning GW to the ground?

How about, "here kettle, meet pot, I hear you two have a lot in common"

I'll more than readily give these new Eldar a shot with my Daemons... If someone's a complete tool and insists only abusing the crap out the book to table me within 1-2 turns, I likely just won't play that specific individual again, because I don't enjoy donkeycavehammer.
I'm sure the majority of Eldar players though are reasonable people who would perhaps dial back their 'Tournament' list to be a slight bit friendlier to my non-tournament list. (unlike the vast majority of GK players I dealt with throughout 5th & early 6th...)

Eldar are a strong dex with just the aspect warriors (buffs all around for them. Scorpions especially) I'd be fine playing an aspect warrior theme list with 5-15 bikes and even a WK.

I don't think the codex is all that op.

the biggest effect on the meta will be that wraith knights can't be tar pitted and will completely wreck Imperial knights, but they will still be hard countered by cent-star so don't expect to see mass wraith knights wining tournaments.

bikes and access to mass farseers could make hyper mobile seer council bike lists successful at gt's.

the D on wraith guard not a big deal the range and speed will make them a suicide unit no easy access to hit and run stops invisible wraith stars being viable. their really just a hard counter to super super heavy vehicles and gmc.

I think It will be top tier but not the game wrecking army that some are making out.

I do think that casual players are going to struggle though just like they do against imperial knights.

"Other armies were bad, so mine can be bad now," is not a good excuse and still leaves the game unfun for many.

 Vaktathi wrote:
How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?

The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.

The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.

Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --

- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
- 2 nice jets that are similar
- 3 nice wraith models - Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Wraithknights


To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic.

Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).

What did the majority of eldar players ask for? New aspect warrior models.
What did the majority of the gamer base ask for? A slight nerf to the eldar dex.

What did GW do? Release no new aspect warrior models and buff eldar to new heights.

Just crazy PR.

So someone should do a codex review that's just 5 minutes of a pitiful sad frown face.

Poly Ranger wrote:
What did the majority of eldar players ask for? New aspect warrior models.
What did the majority of the gamer base ask for? A slight nerf to the eldar dex.

What did GW do? Release no new aspect warrior models and buff eldar to new heights.

Just crazy PR.

I concur: I wish there had been new aspect warrior models. I would have gone nuts in an Eldar revival, lol.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.

I didn't play before 6th edition, so I can't say anything about them being overpowered for too long. But the only things wrong with the 6th edition codex were the Serpent Shield and the Wraithknight being undercosted.

Besides, your point is moot. Spess Muhreens have always been the top sellers.

No he is actually correct, you've been on a bad streak haven't you? To the public Space Marines are iconic and therefore sell as the standard. But when it comes to Eldar, GW obviously has an odd interest in keeping Eldar strong.

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?

The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.

The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.

Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --

- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
- 2 nice jets that are similar
- 3 nice wraith models - Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Wraithknights


To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic.

Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).

To be fair, Chaos Marines look like absolute wet rodent gak compared to the Eldar range... Sure they've got the most mono-pose models next to Sisters, but at those models look damn pretty!

Chaos Marines have the most hideous model line, and not in the good way either, as well as almost as much Finecrap as Eldar...

You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.

Your conscience seems to be fully functional. We thank you for having a soul.

Just let people proxy their stuff as Eldar units at this point. It will be more fun. Ork nobs as aspect warriors, Kommandos as scorpions, Superoverpriced Gorkanaughts as WraithKnights.

EDIT: Yes actually thank you FBP for having a soul, do you need a soulstone for it? I hear Slaneesh is fickle. Wait what does Ancient Doom do now?

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?

The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.

The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.

Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --

- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
- 2 nice jets that are similar
- 3 nice wraith models - Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Wraithknights


To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic.

Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).

Exalted. Though I still do like the look of the Vyper, no matter how outdated the kit is.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if all the finecast Aspect Warriors (read: everything that isn't Dire Avengers) go direct-order only, if they weren't already.

Who knows what will happen when they eventually phase out finecast?

Rough riders as jet bikes!

Just model a guy on a six legged horse (more legs = more speed!) carrying on his shoulder a multilaser. Badass and mostly WYSIWYG.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.

I made a thread over in the Tactics section about this. You can still make that army, and even be effective on the tabletop. Plus your opponent won't get to complain, because you didn't bring the ludicrously OP units.

 Blacksails wrote:
Rough riders as jet bikes!

Just model a guy on a six legged horse (more legs = more speed!) carrying on his shoulder a multilaser. Badass and mostly WYSIWYG.

I think I saw something like that minus two legs and the laser. Adepticon team tournament winners Team U.S.Eh?

 Blacksails wrote:
Rough riders as jet bikes!

Just model a guy on a six legged horse (more legs = more speed!) carrying on his shoulder a multilaser. Badass and mostly WYSIWYG.

Holy gak Rough Riders can be good now! Ogryns as Wraithguard are going to be making a huge comeback! Packed inside their Chimeras (Fire Prism)!