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 Firebreak wrote:
I'm glad you're addressing these kinds of questions, Dave. It's a promising start, for things much more positive than the KS could ever accomplish. Thank you.

Always good to remember that a Kickstarter is a tool, and a starting point, not an end.

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dave said before that they plan on keeping the pledge manager open until just before manufacturing begins so you can always pledge $1 and then add a pledge level like the standard $115 starter pledge if you like what you see in the intervening months. Dave, feel free to correct me if the details here have changed since IIRC a week ago when you said it.

Indeed we will be open to more rewards being chosen after the Kickstarter ends though I have to say this clearly. Whatever is unlocked at the end of the kickstarter is all that will be produced in plastic. Even if the backers all decide to chip in more the stretch Goals will only be unlocked if we get them unlocked during the kickstarter period. Though $1 pledges are good for getting those post-KS update mail outs that might include all kinds of nice messages.

Cheers!
Dave

Another Stretch Goal, we are now exceeding $100,000. Heading to the Iguana mini-stretch Goal:

Cheers!
Dave


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated core set contents:



Now north of the $100K mark!

So we made it past $100,000.

And the Kickstarter staff made the project one of their Staff Picks.

Anymore questions folks have to ask?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Yeah, it's something that could only be done in a total reboot. Like if HG actually died and someone was bringing it back later.

When 40k transitioned from 2E to 3E, GW started with pretty much a clean sheet. They got rid of the Follow Fire / Sustained Fire dice, along with all of the DnD polyhedral dice, moving everything to d6s. They got rid of the variable Flamer templates, down to just one. They ripped out pages of rules and special interactions, along with Psyker levels (a la Dark Millennium). They got rid of the random template phase. 40k3 was a very successful ground-up relaunch.

Same with GW WFB moving from 5E to 6E.

40k3 and WFB6 are what I consider the high points of both systems - clean and simple, easy to learn and play. Pity that GW has forgotten the lesson entirely.


Anyhow, point being, DP9 could have done the hard work to write a clean ruleset for a new edition of Heavy Gear to Kickstart, something to grow the game, rather than cater to the tightest core of existing players.

It's just a jump to the left.
And then a step to the right.
With your hand on your hips.
You bring your knees in tight.

@JohnHwangDD:
I would like to point out that two years before 40k 2E was released there was a management buyout, so none of the original 'visionaries' were left in control. Also keep in mind that after 40k 2E was released the company went on the stock exchange, after that 3E was released and the game was made as accessible as possible for as large a crowd as possible. If you want to point at a start of the current state and hate for GW you need to look at those events. I for one didn't feel that 3E was an improvement and do you really think that the 3E starter boxed set with the two squads of Dark Eldar was a good idea? The 5E and 6E/7E boxed sets are far better, but the rules are still the same variation of the same theme/rules.

I seriously doubt that the folks behind Heavy Gear, dp9 want to walk the same path as Games Workshop...

That said, dp9 has a past of creating a great universe, but often offset by horrible decision making (scale change, rapid rules set changes, not finishing a line of supporting army books, etc.). So if nothing was changing, I would be worried. And if this was a KS for another iteration of the same rules in the same format and another new range of metal/resin minis I wouldn't support it at all. Dp9 has stated that they are going for cheaper hard plastic minis (the kind GW/Revell uses), a complete rewrite of the rules, they are only keeping the Blitz! name because of recognition (don't know if that's a good idea though). They want to go for the 'living rulebook' format that Blood Bowl and Infinity uses (both available for free online), this is a great improvement imho. This allows for easy access for new people and combined with the new plastic starter set a far lower point of entry then previously thought impossible. The contents of the new starter are even better then the GW starters (or any others on the market, as far as I know), it comes with four factions, it allows out of the box for two allied forces that give you enough variation to play the standard 150pts (4-20 miniature, 2 hour) format. With two starters you can provide enough minis for four players and have four unique factions. It also comes with a lot of options in the starter, most game companies make starters as option free as possible. The core starter currently currently costs ~20% of the equivalent in metal/resin, that pretty much destroys the pricing hurdle for HG.

Combine that with the discussion that's been going on in the months leading up to this KS, what went from a KS to produce the next HG rulebook, became a KS for a plastic core starter set. They listened to folks on the boards, not to everyone equally, but that would be madness. They changed their initial ideas, adapted and changed some more, the result is this moderately successful KS. For me this is the moment to put my money where my mouth is, they have pretty much done what I always wanted #1 Far cheaper plastic miniatures; #2 An online 'living' rule set; #3 Listening to (some) ideas from the community. Honestly, if dp9 bugger this KS up in delivery (and I'm not talking about delivery date, more like quality), it will be their complete downfall.

If you wanted change from dp9 and the HG property, this is the moment to support the KS, because if this wasn't successful, I suspect that it would have suffered the same fate as Renegade Legion or Silent Death, a life without any real support. Battletech is a pretty big beast compared to HG and that barely survived the FASA closing and the clickytech exodus...

Hell, even if the rules set isn't everything you would want, it's still a great deal on the minis, $1.60US/Hunter is very nice. The 'living' rules set makes it very easy to copy the rules into your favorite word-processor and 'fix' them for your group.

ps. I haven't bought any 1/144 minis to date, I'm still playing around with the 1/87 RAFM Gears from way back (and bought a ton from ebay, etc.) I have bought the Blitz pdfs, but in my head HG is still 1E, just as 40k is still RT (1E). Some rules streamlining is fine, alternate rule sets for bigger or smaller battles are great, but 'dumbing down' a game is not what makes a great game imho.

pps. The same could be said for Reaper and their CAV line, that was not very well supported. When they made them in plastic 'Bones' everyone came out of the woodwork to support a good idea, hope for a great rules set and get a ton of cheap minis. Or Robotech, it's not as if Palladium or Harmoney Gold have a stellar reputation or anything, but folks wanted their Robotech minis (and the Battletech fans their Unseen). Everyone hoped for better rules/support then the past would have indicated...

ppps. There are haters, there are fans, and there are critics that have valid points/concerns. The point of constructive criticism is say "x is bad, it could be made better by using y." making a list of gripes is NOT constructive criticism. Folks blindly defending against any point of criticisms is also not helpful. dp9 did a ton of unpopular things in the past, they are indicating a change, so the question is whether you give them a chance by supporting this KS or not.

Cergorach wrote:
suffered the same fate as Renegade Legion or Silent Death, a life without any real support.

And here I thought I wouldn't cry today.

BrandonKF wrote:
So we made it past $100,000.

And the Kickstarter staff made the project one of their Staff Picks.

Anymore questions folks have to ask?

All the same ones that have been asked all along.

 Firebreak wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
So we made it past $100,000.

And the Kickstarter staff made the project one of their Staff Picks.

Anymore questions folks have to ask?

All the same ones that have been asked all along.

Well... Most, if not all, the questions that have been asked have been answered already. What I do see, are a lot of complaints, often repeated by the same poster(s). Some of those complaints certainly do have a valid origin, but they are not questions that can be answered...

Scale change change happened 17 years ago, after the metal miniatures industry was force to use a far more expensive non-lead alloy. Not to mention rising costs of the metals used. An 1/87 mini uses 4.5 times as much metal then a similarly sized 1/144 mini (not to mention the metal base). My Mammoth is a lethal weapon, much more so then the classic SockDread made by GW. Tin is currently four times as expensive then in 1997, a few years ago there was a peak of six times as expensive. The pricing '95 was $4.50-$8 for lead and $5.5-$10 for pewter, as pewter is pretty much the only option these days, prices of $22-$40 for a 'mini' just isn't all that acceptable anymore... As dp9 has indicated, they don't intend to change the current scale (1/144) again, no reason to doubt them on that point.

A well balanced, good rules set isn't a requirement for a successful miniatures game, just look at 40k/wfb! Your not going to tell me that's a GOOD, well BALANCED rules set, are you? It needs to be not repulsive and it must be understandable. HG certainly suffered from the last point, to many overlapping rules sources, making it almost incomprehensible during the later Blitz! period. With the intent to publish online a 'living' rulebook, they are pretty much solving that issue.

Not sticking to their 'guns' and completing a range of source books for their game and having a new edition every two years is indeed a big issue with me. Dave has stated his intention of sticking to the new beta rules for years through the 'living' rulebook format. That said, GW just adapted the 2 year edition with 40k and that was easily swallowed by most of their customer base... Whether to believe Dave or not is a personal decision, Dave can have the best intentions in the world but he's not the owner and business decisions might very well be out of his purview.

But it does look like that Dave has been able to sway the current dp9 owner(s) to the reality of the miniature wargaming business, the money is in the miniatures and not in the rules, finally getting far enough away from their RPG origins (I love RPGs, but their business model is directly opposite to miniature wargames).

Another issue was price and availability, availability in this case is directly related to price. Just ask European retailers why they don't stock HG anymore: "Doesn't sell well enough to justify the shelf-space/storage or the money sunk in stock that doesn't move as much as the competition.". Lower the prices and folks will be more willing to buy it, retailers will be more willing to stock it, making it more available. The only way to lower costs is to cut material costs and manufacturing costs. While plastics have a high upfront cost for molds, each 'cast' is a lot cheaper in materials and time-money. Not to mention that if you use steel molds, those can last for a long time, we could easily see the same minis for a decade. That translates to cheaper minis for us and more profit in the long run for dp9, thus a healthier company, which translates (hopefully) in more and better products for us.

As for closing discussions and/or ignoring certain posters, I can kind of get that. My business is customer support in IT, I have a ton of patience with my customers, but it isn't infinite. When I look at the IT, when I look at the 'next level' in IT support, the system admins, they are notorious for not being customer friendly and lacking patience for customers. That's the reason why there's a translator between them and the customer, that's pretty much me. Now Dave has a lot of customer relations experience, but even he will have a point where he stops discussion and will discourage further discussion under his 'roof'. Because if your not a customer and not a potential customer due to your own words, your a disruptive influence for the rest of the customers, your pretty much kicked out of the store/forum. These are the 'haters' and we've had them in this thread as well (Hi Smilodon_UP ;-), that doesn't mean that they don't have good points, but as they've stated themselves they will not be swayed to any point of view then they currently hold. That means they aren't customers, nor will they ever be (unless they lied and can be swayed), so why waste resources on these people beyond an initial best effort?

History is important, but it can't be changed, only the future can be changed. We do need to learn from history, but whether to give dp9 the benefit of the doubt is a personal choice.

Cergorach wrote:A well balanced, good rules set isn't a requirement for a successful miniatures game, just look at 40k/wfb! Your not going to tell me that's a GOOD, well BALANCED rules set, are you? It needs to be not repulsive and it must be understandable.

After someone buys into a miniature game all you need to do to keep them interested is make a moderately fun, mediocre game. They already have an investment so as long as your game is passable, they should keep up with it. Yet everyone I know who bought the starter armies for Blitz:L&L:1.1/FM assembled their miniatures, tried the game and never spoke of it again. I doubt the local experience is an isolated thing. Other companies took advantage of the same promotion and distribution opportunities with Beasts of War and Wayland and have exploded in popularity, while for HG, it seems to have largely been for not.

And what's this beta? It's a set of rules cobbled together for the appeasement of those who liked the previous edition enough not only to stick with it, but to post about it on the internet. I don't see this "abandon the RPG approach for the sake of a miniature game" in there at all. I see more of the same.

HG certainly suffered from the last point, to many overlapping rules sources, making it almost incomprehensible during the later Blitz! period. With the intent to publish online a 'living' rulebook, they are pretty much solving that issue.

Unfortunately it reads like a software support document. It's not the kind of living rulebook that inspires you to play it upon reading.

But it does look like that Dave has been able to sway the current dp9 owner(s) to the reality of the miniature wargaming business, the money is in the miniatures and not in the rules

They only need to be mediocre in terms of game play, but great in terms of inspiration to generate the excitement needed to keep people buying. The beta is unfortunately neither. "The miniatures matter, not the rules" only works when your rules are not bad enough to actually detract from the experience and are actually useful in selling people armies. Like how 40k and Flames of War sell people on army building. If you can't use your rules to inspire people to build an army, there's something wrong with them.

That means they aren't customers, nor will they ever be (unless they lied and can be swayed), so why waste resources on these people beyond an initial best effort?

I won't speak to personal interactions with individuals, but when someone who used to give you money tells you why they are not, you need to listen to them, even if you end up deciding that in the end you won't be able to address their concerns. And when you hear the same thing again and again, it might be time to rethink whether or not it's worth addressing their concerns.

This KS is going alright and I hope it results in nice plastic gear models coming out on time, but given DP9's history of cancelled editions, delays and the fact that it's their first attempt at plastic like this (also the amount of plastic miniatures is very high relative to the funds raised, so that's worrying), I think the smart thing to do is to sit this one out.

18 months from now, I'm hoping that people can tell me how wrong I was and how they've been painting and expanding their armies for half a year already. Somehow though, I think we'll be occasionally watching this thread get updated about why the KS hasn't delivered yet.

Seeing as DP9 has always treated the rules themselves as an after-thought next to selling minis, I'm not sure I see any change in policy there.
If anything, this KS is once again "Minis first, rules... whenever we can", especially when it was supposed to be about a new rulebook in the first place.

Well, I can't address the living rulebook deal, since the Beta does read like software support.

Then again, so did Final Fantasy Flight PDFs when they wrote them up for their Beta.

Beta documents being subject to change and modification and altogether nuking of rules, this should be something many playtesters would be accustomed to.

I do not know what the plans are for the living rulebook, but if Dave has any ideas my guess is he going to continue producing small videos and pictures for examples that will be uploaded into the documents at a later date to make it more visually appealing.

The original idea behind the rulebook being the Kickstarter died, Hudson. Dead. Let me repeat. You have thrown your last batch of dirt on the grave with this, between you, mrondeau and Smilodon. We know what it was supposed to be.

Toward that end, the Kickstarter just achieved Dream Pod 9's goal of 105,000 dollars for everything they were hoping to include in the package. Everything after this is even more bonus material for those who want to join in.

As for how it ends, I will most certainly keep updating here.

Peace.

 frozenwastes wrote:

After someone buys into a miniature game all you need to do to keep them interested is make a moderately fun, mediocre game. They already have an investment so as long as your game is passable, they should keep up with it. Yet everyone I know who bought the starter armies for Blitz:L&L:1.1/FM assembled their miniatures, tried the game and never spoke of it again. I doubt the local experience is an isolated thing. Other companies took advantage of the same promotion and distribution opportunities with Beasts of War and Wayland and have exploded in popularity, while for HG, it seems to have largely been for not.

This isn't unique to HG, we see this around here (Netherlands) a lot, there's a burst of popularity and then a game dies down. We've seen this with most Spartan Games games, the new Warzone, the Mongoose miniature games, 15mm sci-fi gaming (Gruntz, etc.), Dropzone Commander, Anime Tactics, Hell Dorado, etc, etc. The folks go back to their bread and butter games like wfb, 40k, LotR, WarmaHordes, etc.

I think this has something to do with these companies not being able to keep up a release schedule in the same way as the bigger companies can. People lose focus and die down from the shiney-new-model-syndrom and go back to their regular addiction.

 frozenwastes wrote:

And what's this beta? It's a set of rules cobbled together for the appeasement of those who liked the previous edition enough not only to stick with it, but to post about it on the internet. I don't see this "abandon the RPG approach for the sake of a miniature game" in there at all. I see more of the same.

If you have a fanbase, you don't entirely alienate your existing fanbase. You don't cater to the extremes, you cater to what you have and what you could possibly can get. This is not bad, it's sound business. GW killed the Squat (Space Dwarves) decades ago (one tiny race) and folkes are still miffed about that... ;-)

 frozenwastes wrote:

Unfortunately it reads like a software support document. It's not the kind of living rulebook that inspires you to play it upon reading.

I do agree with you there, but I do think that this is the barest alpha/beta test, with a lot of work on presentation and readability. It's not the polished beta of the AAA computer game companies, but i've seen worse ;-)

 frozenwastes wrote:

If you can't use your rules to inspire people to build an army, there's something wrong with them.

I also had a moment of wtf! with the army building, needs to be presented a lot better!

 frozenwastes wrote:

I won't speak to personal interactions with individuals, but when someone who used to give you money tells you why they are not, you need to listen to them, even if you end up deciding that in the end you won't be able to address their concerns. And when you hear the same thing again and again, it might be time to rethink whether or not it's worth addressing their concerns.

You need to take note, but if the expectations of the customer are not in line with your game/business you need to ignore it. A lot of comments is relative, 10k for gw is a drop in the bucket, for dp9 that might be their entire customer base...

 frozenwastes wrote:

This KS is going alright and I hope it results in nice plastic gear models coming out on time, but given DP9's history of cancelled editions, delays and the fact that it's their first attempt at plastic like this (also the amount of plastic miniatures is very high relative to the funds raised, so that's worrying), I think the smart thing to do is to sit this one out.

18 months from now, I'm hoping that people can tell me how wrong I was and how they've been painting and expanding their armies for half a year already. Somehow though, I think we'll be occasionally watching this thread get updated about why the KS hasn't delivered yet.

Delays I'm not having a problem with (much), but if quality is an issue, if that's not up to par, it's going to completely kill HG and dp9 right along with it.

Cergorach wrote:

If you have a fanbase, you don't entirely alienate your existing fanbase. You don't cater to the extremes, you cater to what you have and what you could possibly can get. This is not bad, it's sound business. GW killed the Squat (Space Dwarves) decades ago (one tiny race) and folkes are still miffed about that... ;-)

It's definitely good not to alienate your existing fan base, but what if they are simply too few to support a revenue stream and continuing to make the products they are asking you for prevents you from getting new ones? I just see those who actually like the Blitz:L&L:1.1/FM line of games to be a tiny subset of those who might be potentially interested in HG. The KS will get people on hype and on plastic miniatures, but the real question will be how many of those will be sufficiently inspired to continue to play and make future purchases?

If I were DP9 I'd bank on that number being "not enough" and have another KS ready to go just as the product from the first one is arriving in people's hands. That way they'll have the feeling of "this company delivers!" and the initial impression of the plastic gears in mind, but not the experience of actually playing the full game. Then you can get them on some more KS hype rather than just hoping they don't sort of fade like every other time Blitz has been put out there.

Delays I'm not having a problem with (much), but if quality is an issue, if that's not up to par, it's going to completely kill HG and dp9 right along with it.

A last minute switch to PVC?

 frozenwastes wrote:

Cergorach wrote:

If you have a fanbase, you don't entirely alienate your existing fanbase. You don't cater to the extremes, you cater to what you have and what you could possibly can get. This is not bad, it's sound business. GW killed the Squat (Space Dwarves) decades ago (one tiny race) and folkes are still miffed about that... ;-)

It's definitely good not to alienate your existing fan base, but what if they are simply too few to support a revenue stream and continuing to make the products they are asking you for prevents you from getting new ones? I just see those who actually like the Blitz:L&L:1.1/FM line of games to be a tiny subset of those who might be potentially interested in HG. The KS will get people on hype and on plastic miniatures, but the real question will be how many of those will be sufficiently inspired to continue to play and make future purchases?

If I were DP9 I'd bank on that number being "not enough" and have another KS ready to go just as the product from the first one is arriving in people's hands. That way they'll have the feeling of "this company delivers!" and the initial impression of the plastic gears in mind, but not the experience of actually playing the full game. Then you can get them on some more KS hype rather than just hoping they don't sort of fade like every other time Blitz has been put out there.

Delays I'm not having a problem with (much), but if quality is an issue, if that's not up to par, it's going to completely kill HG and dp9 right along with it.

A last minute switch to PVC?

Well, there is still Peace River, NuCoal, Utopia, and Black Talons to cover. That and these aren't all the available Northern and Southern miniatures.

Edit: PVC would be bullet to the head.

Cergorach wrote:
@JohnHwangDD:
I would like to point out that two years before 40k 2E was released there was a management buyout, so none of the original 'visionaries' were left in control. Also keep in mind that after 40k 2E was released the company went on the stock exchange, after that 3E was released and the game was made as accessible as possible for as large a crowd as possible. If you want to point at a start of the current state and hate for GW you need to look at those events. I for one didn't feel that 3E was an improvement and do you really think that the 3E starter boxed set with the two squads of Dark Eldar was a good idea? The 5E and 6E/7E boxed sets are far better, but the rules are still the same variation of the same theme/rules.

I seriously doubt that the folks behind Heavy Gear, dp9 want to walk the same path as Games Workshop...

RT was a mess of a RPG. 2E was playable, but still very clunky. 3E was far more playable than 2E. The rules were clean, and the 3E starter was fine for what it was: 2 opposed forces with everything you needed to play in a single box.

I suspect that you are correct - DP9 doesn't want HG to become the best selling and most profitable tabletop wargame in the world.

Cergorach wrote:
if this was a KS for another iteration of the same rules in the same format and another new range of metal/resin minis I wouldn't support it at all. Dp9 has stated that they are going for cheaper hard plastic minis (the kind GW/Revell uses), a complete rewrite of the rules, they are only keeping the Blitz! name because of recognition (don't know if that's a good idea though).

I've tried my hand at current Blitz, and I've tried the new rules, which I find to be essentially similar, but playable instead of unplayable. The minis are simply converting metal to plastic, but there's no obvious indication that retail prices will drop in any significant way (i.e. -30% or more).

Cergorach wrote:
They want to go for the 'living rulebook' format that Blood Bowl and Infinity uses (both available for free online), this is a great improvement imho. This allows for easy access for new people and combined with the new plastic starter set a far lower point of entry then previously thought impossible. The contents of the new starter are even better then the GW starters (or any others on the market, as far as I know), it comes with four factions, it allows out of the box for two allied forces that give you enough variation to play the standard 150pts (4-20 miniature, 2 hour) format. With two starters you can provide enough minis for four players and have four unique factions. It also comes with a lot of options in the starter, most game companies make starters as option free as possible. The core starter currently currently costs ~20% of the equivalent in metal/resin, that pretty much destroys the pricing hurdle for HG.

The KS isn't the new starter - it's the KS deal, with a bunch of adders. As I understand it, the new starter is 8 vs 8 minis, and everything else is KS-only bonuses. If DP9 is going to be providing all 40-odd minis from all 4 factions in the starter at the $115 CAD KS price, that's news to me. Where is your source for the KS bundle being the new starter at / around the KS price?

Cergorach wrote:
Hell, even if the rules set isn't everything you would want, it's still a great deal on the minis,

Right now, I am only looking at HG as a toybox of 40+ minis for $110 USD, and weighing that against Robotech Tactics which I'll receive my first portion of very shortly.

Cergorach wrote:
ps. I haven't bought any 1/144 minis to date

I own several 1/144 Gears in metal. If I didn't own those mins, I wouldn't be looking at this KS at all.

Cergorach wrote:
pps. The same could be said for Reaper and their CAV line, that was not very well supported. When they made them in plastic 'Bones' everyone came out of the woodwork to support a good idea, hope for a great rules set and get a ton of cheap minis. Or Robotech, it's not as if Palladium or Harmoney Gold have a stellar reputation or anything, but folks wanted their Robotech minis (and the Battletech fans their Unseen). Everyone hoped for better rules/support then the past would have indicated...

Reaper CAV finished with 60 minis for $100 USD. I bought into Robotech, because it was licensed 1/144 pure scale minis at a great price (90 hard plastic minis for $140 USD), even though I have no interest in the RIFTS-based RPG-like Robotech rules by Palladium. Again, I'd have preferred a Flames-like approach for Robotech as well. But I will have a 1/144 scale Destroid Monster backed by other in-scale Destroids, Valks & Zentradi come this time next year, which is all that I wanted.

Cergorach wrote:
ppps. the question is whether you give them a chance by supporting this KS or not.

At $120 USD shipped, I'm not sure it's worth throwing more of my money at DP9 when I have so many other games in queue to be delivered...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The KS isn't the new starter - it's the KS deal, with a bunch of adders. As I understand it, the new starter is 8 vs 8 minis, and everything else is KS-only bonuses. If DP9 is going to be providing all 40-odd minis from all 4 factions in the starter at the $115 CAD KS price, that's news to me. Where is your source for the KS bundle being the new starter at / around the KS price?

I'm not sure how they could make it any clearer. It is in the text description on the front page of the KS AND in the faq...

Our desired goal is a Core Starter Set of 46 miniatures and color quick start rulebook, which will be accomplished by reaching the 13th stretch goal of $105K CAD. This would allow for a variety of eighteen different models from 4 factions in a Core Starter Set for two players, with a multiplayer option of up to four players.

Our desired Stretch Goal would be #13 for $105K CAD, which would then include 46 minis with 18 different models from 4 factions in the Core Starter Set along with a printed color copy of the Quick Start Rulebook. We think that would make an amazing Core Start Set.

We apparently just reached that goal this weekend so I'm finally going in on the KS. $105k was my break even point on this in terms of value versus cost in $ and frustration.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

I suspect that you are correct - DP9 doesn't want HG to become the best selling and most profitable tabletop wargame in the world.

Don't ever pass me whatever it is you just smoked.

-Brandon F.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The minis are simply converting metal to plastic, but there's no obvious indication that retail prices will drop in any significant way (i.e. -30% or more).

Ayup, the KS FAQ mentions this:

Are the prices we see here going to be the retail cost of the models when they are released?
No. We expect to have to adjust the cost upwards from 10 to 50%. The individual Add-on rewards cost is being kept low during the Kickstarter as a thanks to our backers.

To be fair, there was a $1 CAD drop on several of the KS model add-on prices a week or two ago.

Back on October 9th there was also a small $$$ drop for the online store, because quite a few people would wait months so as to order during a sale period:

We have updated nearly all the prices on the Dream Pod 9 Online Store. Our main goal is to have an everyday lower pricing for our customers and no more special sales in the future. To that point we have lower all book prices by 10% and pewter miniature prices have been lower by 10% to 15% on average (a $20.99USD Two Pack Blister is now $17.99USD). Larger resin and resin/pewter hybrid models have had their prices lowered as much as possible (a Hun Light Tank is now $19.99USD, an Aller Main Battle Tank is $28.99USD and a Naga Strider is now $34.99USD). Costs of resin Badlands Terrain and Stoneheads have been lower by 10%. Decal prices have remained the same as before.

Which is still quite high for individual Striders & conventional vehicles of any size under the (4) action minimum per combat group using the Beta ruleset force construction system.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The KS isn't the new starter - it's the KS deal, with a bunch of adders. As I understand it, the new starter is 8 vs 8 minis, and everything else is KS-only bonuses. If DP9 is going to be providing all 40-odd minis from all 4 factions in the starter at the $115 CAD KS price, that's news to me.

Until it changes, the KS FAQ mentions this:

Will there be a retail version of the Core Starter Set and how much will it cost?
Yes, we will have a Retail Basic Pledge level at the start with 6 copies of the Basic Starter Set of 16 miniatures for a $350 CAD pledge, with a SRP of $79.99 USD ($92 CAD) each.
We'll be announcing an updated retailer package after the Kickstarter is done and we see how may stretch goals have been unlocked.

If I did my math correctly, a retail box of that size at that SRP would have about a 27% profit margin.
As the KS currently stands there are (2) retail backers.

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 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The KS isn't the new starter - it's the KS deal, with a bunch of adders. As I understand it, the new starter is 8 vs 8 minis, and everything else is KS-only bonuses. If DP9 is going to be providing all 40-odd minis from all 4 factions in the starter at the $115 CAD KS price, that's news to me. Where is your source for the KS bundle being the new starter at / around the KS price?

I'm not sure how they could make it any clearer. It is in the text description on the front page of the KS AND in the faq...

Our desired goal is a Core Starter Set of 46 miniatures and color quick start rulebook, which will be accomplished by reaching the 13th stretch goal of $105K CAD. This would allow for a variety of eighteen different models from 4 factions in a Core Starter Set for two players, with a multiplayer option of up to four players.

Our desired Stretch Goal would be #13 for $105K CAD, which would then include 46 minis with 18 different models from 4 factions in the Core Starter Set along with a printed color copy of the Quick Start Rulebook. We think that would make an amazing Core Start Set.

We apparently just reached that goal this weekend so I'm finally going in on the KS. $105k was my break even point on this in terms of value versus cost in $ and frustration.

That's the KS deal, not the retail starter. Try again.

You're looking at the retail deals.

warboss is talking personally about the KS deal.

The company's desired goal was to fund the full-color rulebook plus the miniatures mentioned to be switched over to plastic.

The Caprice line I've already written about earlier, with the cost of savings (even WITH a 30% price increase after the KS is completed) being substantial.

Try again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Mastergunz has recently been posting up a little primer for new painters (such as yours truly) concerning how to adequately paint Heavy Gears, using some old bits and 1/144th Tactical scale miniatures he still has left over.

I know some of the previous commenters in this forum and also in other threads have mentioned that the Tactical line scale change was what killed it for them with the retailers, and also that the lack of detail was horrible.

So I thought I might share these with you all so you can see that there is in fact a great amount of detail, even in those old warhorses:





The above is actually not a Jaguar Destroyer, but a Jaguar with a Hunter body, however, for the sake of the awesomeness of said painting I'm will to say it's an earlier version of a Jaguar Destroyer and let that dawg lie.

Then, in the spirit of the anime that inspired Heavy Gear, he pulled one out of his hat and shared it with us from start to finish:







All of those bits are from the Tactical scale line. But they are certainly fine looking. I look forward to giving it the old try myself with some of his tips (albeit I won't be able to do the same as swiftly as he).

Peace.

-Brandon F.

OK, Brandon, 18 months from now, exactly what is going to be on the shelf of Toroto Hobbies and Games?

How many models for how many CAD?

BrandonKF wrote:
Then again, so did Final Fantasy Flight PDFs when they wrote them up for their Beta.

1) Fantasy Flight Games
2) Er, no. Most of the stuff in the beta has made its way unchanged into the rulebooks, at least in the case of the two core Star Wars RPGs. Trust me on this one. And they don't read anywhere near as... muddy, as the current HG. And of course, the FFG betas have actual, real layout, which makes them immensely more manageable and readable.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, Brandon, 18 months from now, exactly what is going to be on the shelf of Toroto Hobbies and Games?

How many models for how many CAD?

Go, pledge a dollar on the KS, and ask Dream Pod 9 or Dave. They can give you a straight answer.

Albertorius wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
Then again, so did Final Fantasy Flight PDFs when they wrote them up for their Beta.

1) Fantasy Flight Games
2) Er, no. Most of the stuff in the beta has made its way unchanged into the rulebooks, at least in the case of the two core Star Wars RPGs. Trust me on this one. And they don't read anywhere near as... muddy, as the current HG. And of course, the FFG betas have actual, real layout, which makes them immensely more manageable and readable.

Most of the stuff made its way in unchanged, and most of it was still not in a 'pretty, made-up font' while it was in Beta. It was a spreadsheet. Yes.

Dave has continued to repeat that the rules and everything you guys are pointing out will be addressed, and in fact he is already addressing.

The FFG guys had a whole company of God-knows-how-many folks to playtest. HG has Dave, and those playtesters who are joining him over there right now.

We also have the Terra Nova DMZ, my old Pictures Facebook Group, which is also extending questions, concerns, and pointing out mistakes and typos and other errors from the Beta in the DP9 development forum. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/302254736538781/661392040625047

So headway will be made on this. I welcome you to join in.

..

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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I suspect that you are correct - DP9 doesn't want HG to become the best selling and most profitable tabletop wargame in the world.

Even though I think you have some very valid points, I don't really think that is one. Warhammer 40k in particular and GW in general were already the best selling and most profitable tabletop wargame in the world back in 2nd edition.

As you say, back in 2nd edition, 40k was "playable, but still very clunky" and 3rd was "far more playable than 2nd", arguments, btw, that I agree almost completely with: 2nd edition 40k was a skirmish game played with far too many minis for its ruleset, whereas 3rd edition 40k was a game designed wholecloth for the amount of minis they were actually playing with, and it is actually my favorite "big game" edition of 40k.

But it is also true that 3rd edition onwards, 40k's position as the "most profitable tabletop wargame in the world" has been slipping away a bit at a time, losing market share with every new edition and mounting up finantial losses every year. 40k was much more the only game in town back in 2nd edition, and it's been losing ground with every following edition.

So, were we to follow the "might makes right" theory of gaming design (or at least the one you seem to have been toting around over here, namely that as 40k and FoW are the most successful games they are therefore the best ones), we would have to reach the conclusion that 40k 2nd edition was indeed a better game than 3rd and onwards, wouldn't we?

One of the older RPG holdovers (of which I have a fairly good memory of) used various nomenclature for a wide variety of chassis in Heavy Gear.

The most recent Field Guides were an attempt (as is the current Beta) to use similar nomenclature for Gears using weapon loadouts that are similar. So, a Destroyer Jaguar carries a Medium Bazooka. A Destroyer Hunter carries a Medium Bazooka. A Destroyer Tiger carries a Medium Bazooka. The difference then lies in the Gears themselves and their GUN, PILOT, EW abilities, plus their Traits.

Edit: @Albertorius and @JohnHwangDD, I was never a player of the GrimDark. Enjoyed the setting. Perhaps you could enlighten me some. What is the biggest difference between 2nd edition and the latest edition? And in that instance, what similarities does it share with, say, Flames of War and X-wing?

I know that they are completely different settings, I am just curious what is their mechanic that makes them so simple yet fun to play?

BrandonKF wrote:
Most of the stuff made its way in unchanged, and most of it was still not in a 'pretty, made-up font' while it was in Beta. It was a spreadsheet. Yes.

Again, no. The basic layout of the Star Wars books' rules chapters is completely unchanged from the betas, except for the lack of some images (as in, the finished book has more). Everything else is completely unchanged. And how do I know this, you ask? Well, for starters I have both books of the two lines, but I also happen to personally know the guy who did the design and layout for both books.

Frankly speaking, comparing the layout, quality and design of FFG's beta books with HG's Beta (incidentally, the FFG's beta physical books were in color, whereas AFAIK the HG beta was B/W. Not that it would change a whole lot, though) would be... well, insulting.

 Albertorius wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
Most of the stuff made its way in unchanged, and most of it was still not in a 'pretty, made-up font' while it was in Beta. It was a spreadsheet. Yes.

Again, no. The basic layout of the Star Wars books' rules chapters is completely unchanged from the betas, except for the lack of some images (as in, the finished book has more). Everything else is completely unchanged. And how do I know this, you ask? Well, for starters I have both books of the two lines, but I also happen to personally know the guy who did the design and layout for both books.

Frankly speaking, comparing the layout, quality and design of FFG's beta books with HG's Beta (incidentally, the FFG's beta physical books were in color, whereas AFAIK the HG beta was B/W. Not that it would change a whole lot, though) would be... well, insulting.

Are you saying that he did it all by himself? Edit: I have just the one book and one spreadsheet from Edge of the Empire. But I know that while the layout of the book was pretty much the same, you can't tell me that it was 'pretty'. And no, the Beta does have a few color bits, although all that involves counters and terrain/concealment layouts more than anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, color in the Gear tables would help folks, I think. I will pass that suggestion along.

BrandonKF wrote:
Are you saying that he did it all by himself? Edit: I have just the one book and one spreadsheet from Edge of the Empire. But I know that while the layout of the book was pretty much the same, you can't tell me that it was 'pretty'. And no, the Beta does have a few color bits, although all that involves counters and terrain/concealment layouts more than anything.

Layout for a book is generally done by just one guy, yes. In this case, both the layout and the general layout design for the core EotE book and beta were done by the same guy, David Ardila. And yes, I'd say it was quite pretty. Not as pretty as the finished book with all the pretty pictures, but pretty anyways. And very readable. You canot really say the same for the HG Beta, which is clearly just a word file ported over to InDesign.

And well, as you obviously need physical proof, here it is:










Clearly totes the same. Totes.