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Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper






The knock against it (sky/earth) is that it looks better in photos than real-life. I haven't actually seen any in person, so I don't know. For those of you who have seen it in person, does it look crazy awesome when you can move your head back and forth in relation to the model or is it a pure single perspective thing that only works in a photo?

Oops, my bad. Yes, I mean sky earth nmm.
[Thumb - cannon.jpg]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/30 22:26:41


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Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






UK

Is this a riddle? Whats sky/earth?

If I am not in my room, is it still my room?  
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

Elmodiddly wrote:Is this a riddle? Whats sky/earth?


I was thinking the same thing!

I don't get it...

   
Made in ca
Yellin' Yoof on a Scooter





He is reffering to Sky and Earth Non-Metallic Metal. A technique used to piant metal in a chrome like appearance with non metallic paints.

I think it looks hockey unless masterfully done, and even then it can look wierd from different angles. Even more so than normal NMM, which I am generally not a fan of.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

A quick google search did not help.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Da Mekshop

Yeah SENMM. (think of the White dwarf font)

As soon as you move it loses all appeal (beyond actual appreciation of the effort obv).

   
Made in gb
Noble of the Alter Kindred




United Kingdom

Sky and earth are WW2 RAF colours

From what I have seen of the NMF looks odd
really not sure about it. I assume it is an attempt to have the sky and earth subtly reflected in the metal? Is a good idea in priciple but imagine it is hard to make convincing.

Think that should be hokey, Lead old thing!
Hockey is a whole different ball game

 
   
Made in gb
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Da Mekshop

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote: I assume it is an attempt to have the sky and earth subtly reflected in the metal?



Yup. Except subtle isn't really the right word. Contrast range is the key to good NMM.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Is a good idea in priciple but imagine it is hard to make convincing.


Nope. Just patience and planning, like all display techniques really.

   
Made in gb
Noble of the Alter Kindred




United Kingdom

That is how it would be painted in a picture, and perfectly plausible.
The reason why I think it must be hard to make convincing is because of movement, as already suggested by others.
Although contrast is required it does not exclude subtlty of touch
A reflection in metal would be shifting in response to altered viewpoints. The painted on technique is fine as long as the model is static.

I have only seen photos and some of the work is exquisite, but I am still not wholly convinced that it is worth the necessary patience and skill. Certainly not for table top. I can imagine that it works better on display models.

Usual caveats of subjectivity apply.

 
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper







Basically, developed as a two dimensional technique and then adopted by miniatures painters. It's a staple of fantasy art and often looks amazing there, but as I said, I have not seen it in three dimensions. Sorayama:




[Thumb - robot.jpg]


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Made in jp
Hacking Shang Jí






When it works, it works fantastically.

My only objection to it is that many times it often doesn't look realistic on a war-torn battlefield. The cannon above is a perfect example- why would anyone (especially GW's typically gruff and pragmatic dwarves) polish a cast iron cannon to a mirror finish? But even more to the point, why would anyone polish ammunition to a mirror finish? The robot in the picture above I can believe. On that Slaanesh special character's shield I can believe. On a magical sword I can believe. Maybe even on SM power armour i can believe (something like a RIFTs Glitterboy). Not on a cannon.

The end result kinda looks like the painter wants to draw attention to their skill as a painter rather than producing a believable miniature we can all appreciate. Done in a believable way, SENMM is incredible. Overdo it though, and it just looks gaudy IMHO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/31 03:36:44


"White Lions: They're Better Than Cancer!" is not exactly a compelling marketing slogan. - AlexHolker 
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper






JOHIRA wrote:When it works, it works fantastically.

My only objection to it is that many times it often doesn't look realistic on a war-torn battlefield. The cannon above is a perfect example- why would anyone (especially GW's typically gruff and pragmatic dwarves) polish a cast iron cannon to a mirror finish? But even more to the point, why would anyone polish ammunition to a mirror finish? The robot in the picture above I can believe. On that Slaanesh special character's shield I can believe. On a magical sword I can believe. Maybe even on SM power armour i can believe (something like a RIFTs Glitterboy). Not on a cannon.

The end result kinda looks like the painter wants to draw attention to their skill as a painter rather than producing a believable miniature we can all appreciate. Done in a believable way, SENMM is incredible. Overdo it though, and it just looks gaudy IMHO.


Why polish a cannon? You said magic sword -- perhaps this is a magical cannon? Who knows what dwarves are thinking -- I bet they polish everything -- including the inside of the ammunition. On the other hand, I agree that it's a showpiece technique, not a practical one. There's the weathered vs. newly mint argument in a nutshell. Space Marines (and others) would spit polish and freshly paint everything before they went to battle, but weathered stuff helps with scale. I think it comes down to whether you think of your models as depicting the troops before, during, or after the battle. I guess you could paint two of everything and then swap em out as they take damage?

I suspect that most nmm techniques look really amazing in photos, but possibly not as startling when you are looking at the physical object.

It's a bit of a catch 22. I've done a few two dimensional illustrations of chrome (it's a pretty standard task), but I have no idea how it will look in three dimensions. The main problem is that these nmm illusions (especially sky earth) fall apart unless they are veeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrryy carefully done. Secondly, it takes practice to learn a new technique, lotza practice to learn a finicky one like this. Ergo, I would have to expend a lot of effort to produce an example (assuming I can) and then find out I don't like the way it looks. So far, my plan is to make the attempt, botch it horribly, and then claim that I didn't like the way it looked (even though I did it perfectly -- what's that? oh no, I already stripped the model, sorry).

Just sayin -- one should find out if one enjoys swimming before one installs a pool in one's backyard (as a friend of mine failed to do, much to his chagrin).




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/31 07:31:51


10k pts Eldar (no jetbikes -- how is that possible?)

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Made in ca
Auspicious Skink Shaman





Mississauga, ON

I enjoy a good SENMM and NMM if done correctly.

Here is one that I have seen done well on a vehicle (not my work btw):




One thing to remember is that people generally try to go about it as if you are looking at a real piece of metal where light reflects from all angle. This will create this weird and inorganic feel to the model that most people relate to.

In order to make it look good...one must choose the light source hitting into on point or angle and work around that.

Here is another example of this (again not my work, but of a 'Eavy Team member):

I have seen this model in real life and up close.



At the end, it really comes down to research and learning/practicing the technique till you get it right.

And definitely lots of patience

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/31 07:54:40


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Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper






Orki wrote:

Nope. Just patience and planning, like all display techniques really.


Orki! you are a bad bad man. What dark dreams rattle round your withered black heart?
This sir, is world class work. A magnificent marriage of modeling and painting, and the resin pour is badass. Oni Warau is feeding his "pet"? Is that a run of the mill cephalopod, or something deliciously more exotic?

[Thumb - crop.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/31 08:05:52


10k pts Eldar (no jetbikes -- how is that possible?)

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Made in gb
Noble of the Alter Kindred




United Kingdom

Why polish a cannon?


Because there aren't any lady dwarves in the GW Dwarf Kingdoms?

 
   
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

SpacePanzee wrote:The knock against it (sky/earth) is that it looks better in photos than real-life. I haven't actually seen any in person, so I don't know. For those of you who have seen it in person, does it look crazy awesome when you can move your head back and forth in relation to the model or is it a pure single perspective thing that only works in a photo?

Oops, my bad. Yes, I mean sky earth nmm.


It obviously requires skill but I don't care for it myself. It seems to be more of an exercise in showing off technique than producing a realistic or even sensible looking model. I quite like NMM, but the landscape reflection stuff is going rather far, most miniatures like this seem a little arch, they're trying too hard to impress.
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

To me it looks pretty silly, though on a display piece it can be effective if designed in such a way as you can only really see it from a couple of directions, such as a diorama with set in an enclosed space. That way you can concentrate much more on what is being reflected and where, plus you then can't look at it from an angle where it looks really wrong

   
Made in de
Angry Chaos Agitator






Howard A Treesong wrote:
It obviously requires skill but I don't care for it myself. It seems to be more of an exercise in showing off technique than producing a realistic or even sensible looking model. I quite like NMM, but the landscape reflection stuff is going rather far, most miniatures like this seem a little arch, they're trying too hard to impress.


I really like it, when used in a diorama. Like OSL which also needs the light source visible in the diorama or on the miniature to be believable.
And i really like miniatures that impress .

   
Made in jp
Hacking Shang Jí






SpacePanzee wrote:Why polish a cannon? You said magic sword -- perhaps this is a magical cannon?


Nah. Gleaming magical swords are a standard part of fantasy visual lexicon. Mirror-polish magical cannons are not. For another thing, polishing a sword (not necessarily to a mirror finish mind) is an important part of making a good weapon. There is no benefit to polishing a cast-iron cannon. If whoever painted that piece wants me to think that's a magic cannon, they need to do something more to it than just slap some chrome on it.

It just smacks of virtuosity for its own sake, and that puts me off. That miniature is effectively saying to me, "look at this awesome technique I can do. Don't I rule!" in a way that actually distracts me from enjoying the miniature- which I think is the point of the exercise.

The Tetra and the skink minis above don't cause the same reaction to me because they look right with their NMM. They are fantastically painted of course, and their artists are just as talented, but I come away thinking more about how awesome the minis are, not the person who painted them. Maybe it's just me, but that goes a long way. And that Oni is ing amazing.

And I just noticed that the dwarf cannon has the landscape reflected in the cannon barrel, but not the (much closer) dwarf. Or rather, the hand and shell might be reflected, but the dwarf's head is not. Probably because distorting the head around the round barrel would be hard. And not only that but the shell is reflected on the cannon, but the cannon is not reflected on the equally polished shell. And now that I've noticed that, I can't stop noticing it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/31 14:28:06


"White Lions: They're Better Than Cancer!" is not exactly a compelling marketing slogan. - AlexHolker 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






Manchester, UK

I've tried to do SENMM before (see my gallery) and found it A) very hard to get right, B) incredibly time consuming and C) rubbish when looked at from the wrong angle. I like painting nmm but won't be using the SE technique again unless a model really needs it.

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Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.

 
   
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Da Mekshop

Thanks for the kind (but off-topic) comments about my Oni btw chaps.

You can find the full piece here - http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/132340-.html?m=2


   
Made in ca
Yellin' Yoof on a Scooter





Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Think that should be hokey, Lead old thing!
Hockey is a whole different ball game


Crud! You would think as a Canadian hockey fan I would have caught that one. I think I just have hockey on the brain too much.

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Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper






SilverMK2 wrote:To me it looks pretty silly, though on a display piece it can be effective if designed in such a way as you can only really see it from a couple of directions, such as a diorama with set in an enclosed space. That way you can concentrate much more on what is being reflected and where, plus you then can't look at it from an angle where it looks really wrong


That would eliminate most of the things that bother me about it.
good idea -- thank you

10k pts Eldar (no jetbikes -- how is that possible?)

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