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I have a 2500pt game coming up and i would like to improve on my list. I have been playing my buddy for some time now and this will be our largest battle. He is a SM player and has about 10,000pts to choose from. From interrogation I've gathered very little about his new list. He says he is going to try something different. His list is usually tailored to beat my CSM. And they have been very effective. I haven't won a game and I'm getting frustrated with this codex. He tells me he is going to try using a librarian. He is also fielding a LR. His predators are all lascannon equipped and he believes are way to costly to use. Last game he had 2 vindis that were wiped w/ my chosen (outflank) but i believe he will use them again. He also used 2 dreads w/ MM and CC. I managed to destroy both MM but he killed 3 of my units in CC. After the 4th turn all I had left was squad of chosen and 2 oblits.

Here is my new Red Corsairs list.(Plz no DP)

HQ:
Huron Blackheart

Elite:
5 Chosen - 3 Meltas, 2 Flamers, Rhino (going to outflank)

4 Terminators - 4 pair Lightning Claws, Land Raider - Demonic possession (I have never used a LR and would like to try it)

1 Dreadnought - MM, CC

Troops:
8 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Powerfist - Rhino (Huron will ride with these guys)

8 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Power Weapon - Rhino

8 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Power Weapon - Rhino

10 CSM - 2 plasmaguns - Rhino

10 CSM - 2 plasmaguns - Rhino

Heavy:

Defiler - TL Reaper Autocannon & CC (this is WYSIWYG, if he allows me to proxy then this will be 2 CC)

Defiler - TL reaper Autocannon & Heavy Flamer (as note above)

2 Obliterators


I believe i have 3 pts to spare.

Any C&C is welcome but please no "this list is SH*t" comments. If it is, then help me to fix it

Hey Styro, good to see the Red Corsairs are taking the field! Looks like a serious mechanized list... lots of scoring units, lots of mobility. I haven't played CSM often but it looks like a fair amount of long range fire-power and a swarm of things that can close fast for H-t-H action.

Not a bad 1-2 punch. Dreads will probably end badly vs. a serious tank army but by that time your troops should be swarming.

I'd ask yourself what the Dread and Terminators are adding to your list. I'd think about how you want to equipe the Terminators and I'd flatout drop the Dread.

It appears your tactic is based on Rhino rush and you've said you lose everytime to him. Thus I'd consider different tactics. Perhaps more Terminators, possibly dropping the Oblits for another Landraider to give that LR assault more punch. Maybe consider a Termmicide unit (3 with combi-meltas to DS in take out a tank and then die).

A Winged Prince with Warp Time is rarely a poor investment. Perhaps consider the Abbadon beat stick, though that does go against your theme. Likewise summoned daemons can rearly cause problems.

Essentially rather than just trying to stream line an army that he already knows how to beat give him something new to consider. Attack him in ways he hasn't seen before and do things he won't expect.

First Huron should go with the Terminators IMO.

Like Flingit said their loadout should be changed.

Huron has a heavy flamer which is good for firing before charging into combat. With LC Terminators (if you want them just as a 'get into combat and that's it' squad) you should take Mark of Khorne. This will give them extra attack and make LCs even deadlier.

it is 30 points though.

I'd drop dreadnought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with your Chosen might I suggest you take 2 meltas and 2 flamers. that way you never need to leave your rhino but can just switch the models using the hatch to fire out.

Thanks guys,

I forgot to mention last game, on his 1st turn, a drop pod fell from the sky right next to my defiler and out came a dread armed w/ a MM lucky for me the defiler has daemonic possession, but I might not be so lucky next time

FlingitNow wrote:I'd ask yourself what the Dread and Terminators are adding to your list. I'd think about how you want to equipe the Terminators and I'd flatout drop the Dread.

Actually I don't own a dread my buddy is letting me use on of his to use. I thought I'd try one before I bought any. Since I have never played one thought it would be fun and add more tank busting. Because his did such a good job wiping me out. But if you think it's not worth it then I'll drop them for the Termicide. The assault termies are there so I can use the LR and try to take out his command squad. I would like to give them a mark but im not sure which would be better in this situation. MoK for the extra attack or MoS for the Initiative?

FlingitNow wrote:It appears your tactic is based on Rhino rush and you've said you lose everytime to him. Thus I'd consider different tactics. Perhaps more Terminators, possibly dropping the Oblits for another Landraider to give that LR assault more punch. Maybe consider a Termmicide unit (3 with combi-meltas to DS in take out a tank and then die).

This will be my first Rhino rush (I will be using 4 of his old Rhinos). I was thinking of using them as a wall to protect my defilers (which explode before I can use them, because I usually end up going second). I have about 20 termies and I have used them before but not as a Termicide. After reading a few tactics on them I really wanted to use them. But my buddy has read these tactics and expects me to use them. (lol but that could be a counter tactic on its own. It hard facing the same opponent every time). I have another LR in the mail and should get it this week but won't be ready to use. (it would be nice to throw some Zerks in there). As for the single unit of Oblits. My buddy always ignores them and they are left to do a bit damage. I would like more but they are pretty expensive

FlingitNow wrote:A Winged Prince with Warp Time is rarely a poor investment. Perhaps consider the Abbadon beat stick, though that does go against your theme. Likewise summoned daemons can rearly cause problems.

I know and I realize that this is chaos' real power. But my army is fluffy and I'd rather change to the SM codex then give up on the Fluff.

Essentially rather than just trying to stream line an army that he already knows how to beat give him something new to consider. Attack him in ways he hasn't seen before and do things he won't expect.

Thanks I'm trying to be unpredictable (luckily he is not a fan of Dakka Dakka, so there is an 80% chance he wont see this). If I give him too much to shoot at then hopefully I be able to get close enough to get my revenge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I was posting at the same time

Corennus wrote:First Huron should go with the Terminators IMO.

I wasn't sure I could put Huron in their dedicated trasnport? If i can thanks. Although now i'm afraid is 4 Termies enough to protect Huron?

Huron has a heavy flamer which is good for firing before charging into combat. With LC Terminators (if you want them just as a 'get into combat and that's it' squad) you should take Mark of Khorne. This will give them extra attack and make LCs even deadlier.

So MoK is better the MoS?

I'd drop dreadnought.

I'm thinking about. I'll revamp my list when I get home and most likely when i get more ideas

Also with your Chosen might I suggest you take 2 meltas and 2 flamers. that way you never need to leave your rhino but can just switch the models using the hatch to fire out.

The plan is to keep them in the Rhino but last time the Rhino was immobilized and they had to flootslog and the extra melta came in handy. Although it looks like I might need those points.

Looking at Huron's stats. Is he not the worst special character in the game? 170 points for 3 powerfist attacks and a heavy flamer? Yuck.

You can get a Chaos Terminator Lord with Lightning Claws for cheaper and he has 2 more attacks and a better armor save.

Looking at Huron's stats. Is he not the worst special character in the game?

Taske a look at Aun'Va of the Tau a far far far worse special character...

Back on topic. If it is your first go with Rhino rush then the list is not too bad. I'd up the Terminator contingent and consider mark of Khorne.

Given what you've said about the defilers more ranged anti-tank could help you get to fire them more and if they are having that much difficulty you could always consider reserving them.

when planning armies Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes will ALWAYS look better than named characters cause they can be tailored to the list rather than the other way round.

BUT fluffwise if he wants to take Huron let him.


As to your questions Styrofoam:

Yes you can attach Huron to the Terminators and go in the land raider.
He has the same Inv Save as them so don't expect them to be an invincible unit. they're for "terror strikes" and taking on big bad enemy infantry.

Is Mark of Slaanesh worse than Mark of Khorne?
It depends.
MoS makes your terminators I5, which means they should generally strike first even if being assaulted. And they have 2 attack anyway.
With Mark of Khorne however they're attacking 3 times normally. Now add 1 attack for charging, and 1 attack for having 2 CC weapons (LCs) and each terminator attacks 5 times!
That's a lot of attacks.

Chaos Dreadnought:
Thing about dreadnought is, it's on its own. and therefore a big target.
it also can't be drop podded in like a SM dread, so it's stuck running.
Chaos Dreads really excel if you give them 2 CCWs and get them stuck into the enemy. but you need 2 of them really for it to work (redundancy)

Drop the dread and get more troops or heavy support (triple Defiler maybe?)

eNvY wrote:Looking at Huron's stats. Is he not the worst special character in the game? 170 points for 3 powerfist attacks and a heavy flamer? Yuck.

You can get a Chaos Terminator Lord with Lightning Claws for cheaper and he has 2 more attacks and a better armor save.

With my Fluff I normally don't field Huron. He would normally be on his throne surrounded by his hell hounds and other beasts. Only on rare occasions will I bring him out. When I do he hasn't been defeated. He's usually the last one standing. This battle will make or break my faith in the Chaos gods. So I believe he should be there.

If warp time is used successfully I find Huron better then any Lord. The use of the Heavy Flamer then 3 Power Weapons or 3 Powerfists attacks is more average hits and wounds then the 5 attacks and no re-rolls on hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corennus wrote:

As to your questions Styrofoam:

Yes you can attach Huron to the Terminators and go in the land raider.
He has the same Inv Save as them so don't expect them to be an invincible unit. they're for "terror strikes" and taking on big bad enemy infantry.

Is Mark of Slaanesh worse than Mark of Khorne?
It depends.
MoS makes your terminators I5, which means they should generally strike first even if being assaulted. And they have 2 attack anyway.
With Mark of Khorne however they're attacking 3 times normally. Now add 1 attack for charging, and 1 attack for having 2 CC weapons (LCs) and each terminator attacks 5 times!
That's a lot of attacks.

Chaos Dreadnought:
Thing about dreadnought is, it's on its own. and therefore a big target.
it also can't be drop podded in like a SM dread, so it's stuck running.
Chaos Dreads really excel if you give them 2 CCWs and get them stuck into the enemy. but you need 2 of them really for it to work (redundancy)

Drop the dread and get more troops or heavy support (triple Defiler maybe?)

Thanks alot Corennus, You have been very helpful.

Consider the dread dropped and I'll take MoK on the termies with Huron. Should I add another Termie or keep it at 4?

I have a 3rd Defiler but it is not built. So add Termicide instead?

What about my Zerkers I had the 1 squad with the fist to complement Hurons fist should I make it a Power Weapon. But then again I'm going to have a problem w/ his dreads. I'm not sure if I will have the points to make them all fists? I have to check tonight

Few tiny tweaks for your list:

HQ:
Huron Blackheart
170

Elite:
5 Chosen -
2 Meltas,
2 Flamers,
Rhino
155

4 Terminators -
4 pair Lightning Claws,
Mark of Slaanesh
Terminator Champions x 4
Land Raider - Demonic possession
455

Troops:
10 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Powerfist -Rhino
285

10 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Power Weapon - Rhino
275

10 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Power Weapon - Rhino
275

10 CSM - 2 plasmaguns - Rhino
215

10 CSM - 2 plasmaguns - Rhino
215

Heavy:

Defiler - TL Reaper Autocannon & CC
150

Defiler - TL reaper Autocannon & Heavy Flamer
150

Defiler - TL Reaper Autocannon & CC
150

2495

Terminators strike first and have 3 attacks each.

Bezerkers are at full strength.

3 Defilers means you can pile in with lots of CC

Sorry I'm a bit confused?

I thought the magic number for Berzerkers was 8. Anymore then that is a waste of points

4 Terminators - 4 pair Lightning Claws, Mark of Slaanesh
Terminator Champions x 4 <= I'm only allowed to have 1
Land Raider - Demonic possession

I also read that taking a Champion is not worth it. 10 points for 1 extra attack. And didn't you just convince me to get MoK on them?
http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2009/08/chaos-space-marine-terminator-tactica.html

As for the Defiler In the future I will take a third but right now I only have two. When that happens then I'll update the list, in the meantime I have 2 Oblits that get ignored by my opponent. Unless I drop it for a termicide?

OK. in reverse order>

Mark of Khorne is nice. but I was thinking more of them always striking first. No matter the opponent (unless it's an Emperor's Champion or something insane) they will always strike first even if assaulted.

Mark of Khorne makes itself felt most when you charge.
4 terminators with MOK and LCs will get:
8 base attacks
4 attacks for charging
4 attacks for MOK

Attacks: 16
Cost: 190

Now for Slaanesh to get same amount of attacks would be costly.
But let's see hoe much it is

Base attacks: 8
Charging Attacks: 4
Terminator Champion: 4

Attacks: 16
Cost: 215

25 points. cost of nearly another terminator.

ok let;s take 2 champions out

Base attacks:8
Charging: 4
Terminator Champions : 2

Attacks: 14
Cost: 195

5 points extra. for admittedly 2 less attacks, but you ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST


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AS for khorne bezerkers.......um what?

why wouldn't you take 10? you just lost 4 cc attacks

Edit: My apologies, you are right I just read that any Terminator model can be upgraded to a champion

The magic number of troops, anything more is either overkill or a waste. (points that can be used elsewhere)

10 CSM's
8 zerks
7 PM's

So I revised my list and I have 113 pts left. I can upgrade the skull champions to all have fists or add 1 berzerker to each or unless anyone has any other suggestions?

how about a bloodthirster?

When in stum you could have your bezerker champion transform into a hulking monstrosity.

until you have model you could proxy with a dreadnought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
can we see the revised list?

It would be fun to try. I have a Balrog I could use. I would do it just to see the look on his face. But I'm not sure if the Red Corsairs would use Deamons at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

can we see the revised list?

I revised it at the top. or am I supposed to leave it and post a new one?

post a new one


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsairs take warriors from any other army and make them their own. you can have Khorne Bezerkers from the World Eaters allied with the Red Corsairs..

HQ:
Huron Blackheart

Elite:
5 Chosen - 3 Meltas, 2 Flamers, Rhino

4 Terminators - 4 pair Lightning Claws, upgrade 2 Terminator Champions, and MoS (Huron will ride with these guys)
Land Raider - Demonic possession

3 terminators - combi-meltas

Troops:
8 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Powerfist - Rhino

8 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Power Weapon - Rhino

8 Berzerkers + 1 Skull Champion - Power Weapon - Rhino

10 CSM - 2 plasmaguns - Rhino

10 CSM - 2 plasmaguns - Rhino

Heavy:

Defiler - TL Reaper Autocannon & CC (this is WYSIWYG, if he allows me to proxy then this will be 2 CC)

Defiler - TL reaper Autocannon & Heavy Flamer (as note above)


2387pts.

I like it.

Add in a Bloodthirster and your opponent will be bricking it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still taking huron with the bezerkers? ok...

Oops, I forgot to fix that. Thanks

Ok I'll throw in the Bloodthirster but I will need some kinda fluff for it being there. I guess it would work I've read that Huron has Khorne death pits for His berzerkers. So I guess one Skull Champion would summon one.

Now i Just have to read on how to use them

At start of your turn call for reserves.

Explode a Bezerker Champion and replace him with a hullking Greater Daemon.

I would find pts for a second LR. Take a 10 man KB squad and fill the LR with.

The "8 is the magic number" thingy is just a fluff thing. 8 is Khornes magic number, 7 Nurgles ect...

220 points for two twin-linked lascannons and no POMS?

I agree that Land Raiders should go in pairs. but I don't think it would really suit this list.

So I had the game and I lost big time. mostly due to bad rolls. My Land Raider was useless, a drop pod filled with 10 combi-Melta SMs took it out easy. My chosen Outflanked too early too early and had nothing to shoot at. Then on his turn he Outflanked behind my chosen. It wasn't pretty. My Termicide Deep Striked with no scatter near his LR but they rolled all 1's to hit. Grrr What a waste! My Greater Daemon didn't enter the game until 5th turn and I had only 1 Champion left which was surrounded by monster killing tanks. (he was shocked to see it! But that did not last)

I really need a good set of Dice... or luck. I was soo frustrated that I bought the SM codex to convert my army!

So I told this to my 'nerd' at GW. He was tried to convince me to keep at it and it wasn't working, I had my mind set. Screw the Gods they never helped Huron or I much!
But then after 20 mins we found my problem. My friend and I used to mostly play 4th ed. We have only played 5th 7 or 8 times. As it turns out we have been playing 4th ed. annihilation games. Which is not really one of the games in the book. I was told that it is very difficult for chaos to beat SM toe to toe and that I should try the other games which Chaos it better at like holding objectives. He also mention the new book of missions and that a few of them are meant for chaos. Which I might try.

The last thing he told me was to play someone else! When friends constantly play each other it is usually always one sided. If my friend was to play a different opponent he would most likely lose for his tactics are only meant to defeat me.

So I need to look for players and hopefully i can win a few

Keep at your list.

Coming from a guy who constantly changes his i will scream at you not to change yours until you've played at least 3 games with it as it is.

Good, but i'd get another HQ.
A sorceror maybe?

like I said in last post. play with it a few times as is so you really know where you're weakest. try against different armies too.

it might be a disaster against space marines but eat orks for breakfast..

Sorry guys, My so called friend has found me on this site and has read this post. I can no longer post any information here I do not trust him not to look.


Edit: Its been a while now and he has promised me that he wouldn't look here before we have a game

Am players hate combat. I play red corsairs too but unless you want to keep to the fluffy side of things, replace Huron with a slanesh sorcorer with lash (familiar + warptime too will end up roughly 160-170p, give him termie amour and chuck him in LR, he can also cancel out your opponents librerian powers) and also, standard slaneshi marines with duel flamers can be much better than duel plasma's (plus plaguemarines go with plasmaguns a lot better)

I like the bezerkers and I do quite like the list. And I did have a friend that kept beating me, don't worry though you will get there eventually, the worst thing you can do is stop trying to beat him.