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Hey folks!

I've finally decided that its time to take action and replace my blocks of 36 chessex dice with something more statistically normal; the latest piece of research I've read says that rounded dice with depressed pips roll 29% 1s, while square dice with depressed pips roll 19% 1s, and square dice with painted pips (no depressions/drilling) roll 16.6% 1s.

My shooting (and the number of 1s I roll) is legendary in the circles I game in - needing a 3+ to hit and getting 1-2 out of nine hits is a regular occurance.

I have some casino dice (square, painted pips) but they're too big to roll handfuls of. Ideally, I would like some 12-14mm square dice with undepressed pips. I've called a few stores and checked a few websites without much luck. I remember a guy on Dakka had at one point planned on making and selling some, but don't know where that went.

Could anyone point me in the right direction of acquiring some of these?



*EDIT* I've called GameScience. They can get non-serialized 12mm (Chessex 36 block type) precision dice with dots for $7.50 apiece. They've had quite a few requests and are going to start manufacturing these dice themselves in the next six months to a year, which will drive the cost down approximately 1/2.

While I don't want to get 36-50 dice at $7.50 apiece, I can at least get twelve, which covers the bulk of my dice rolling.

Search for Precision Dice, which is the square cornered no-pip dice used by casinos and professional game players, for games such as backgammon(sp?).

Here you go (those were a PITA to find)

You can get them on Amazon.

A few things:

1. They do not roll more 1's... That is a myth. Rounded dice can be unbalanced and can become favored to *ANY* side. Your dice can be unbalanced and predisposed to roll 5's just as much as 1's. Rolling more 1's was a clever way to sell how unbalanced imperfect dice destroy the game when it really doesn't. Technically you could buy 1000 rounded dice and then test them until you found a majority that were predisposed to 5-6s and then keep a few 1-2s for LD roll dice.

I would check out this site.
http://dicephysics.info/

2. Precision dice are easily manipulated. For them to be truly random you must do one of two things, or both:
A. use a dice cup
B. Roll against a bank

If you do not do either of these with precision dice, then the randomness is influenced by your rolling technique. People can and do use rolling techniques with casino dice to influence the game. Imperfect rounded crap dice are much harder and near impossible to influence so while it may be less statistically random, it is more protected against cheaters... And people do cheat with dice. If you did not use a bank or a dice cup, your dice are not randomized with precision dice. It is not uncommon for people to be able to always roll a 4+ with a single precision dice with a bit of practice.

3. Prepare to share dice... If you honestly believe you are rolling higher with less 1's then for the game to have integrity, both sides of the table should be rolling with the same type of dice with the same level of results. If you want to use casino dice, then expect your opponent will to. Many events require dice-sharing to protect against cheaters who use loaded dice or irregular dice, and if you honestly believe the cheap dice roll more 1's then you wouldn't want an undeserved unfair advantage over your opponent would you?


Personally, I feel casino dice have no place in wargaming as they are used to cheat with more often than not. They are too easy to influence and control and people already have 'special dice' for 'special tests' which currently cause harm to the game. if everyone rolls with the same crap dice, then everyone is equal and everything is fair.

http://www.g2ch.com/12mm-pearlized-olympic-colors-with-black-pips-15pc-dice-set-p-556.html

I have a block of those, Dave - they're squared, but with depressed pips. I like them, though, and it's often handy to have 12 of each of 3 colors.

nkelsch wrote:A few things:

1. They do not roll more 1's... That is a myth. Rounded dice can be unbalanced and can become favored to *ANY* side. Your dice can be unbalanced and predisposed to roll 5's just as much as 1's. Rolling more 1's was a clever way to sell how unbalanced imperfect dice destroy the game when it really doesn't. Technically you could buy 1000 rounded dice and then test them until you found a majority that were predisposed to 5-6s and then keep a few 1-2s for LD roll dice.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
Myth? I think not.

nkelsch wrote:

2. Precision dice are easily manipulated. For them to be truly random you must do one of two things, or both:
A. use a dice cup
B. Roll against a bank

I don't want casino dice, I want square dice - 12mm kind (the same size as chessex). I have some casino dice, but quickly realized that they were unwieldy to roll on the table.

And....I do use a dice cup, unless I'm only rolling a couple of dice. I put the number of dice in it that I need, turn it upside down, remove my hand and dump them out. Nonetheless, I'd still prefer square dice. I have no issue sharing my dice with others, and never have - and at the last few tournaments I've had to borrow my opponents' dice because mine were packed away. I see a lot of square dice, and peoples' "lucky dice" - I had one opponent use the same square white die for all of his terminator saves and roll amazingly well - I believe that volume of dice works in my favor in the end (which is why my gaming is focused around volume of dice, not quality of individual dice rolls), but like I said - my rolling *is* legendary for its terribleness, and I'd prefer knowing that I was playing on an even playing field - which is *not* the same as gaining an advantage.

Nkelsch, I think that's a terrible assumption to make. When I roll a dice, I expect an equal chance of each side coming up. If (and in this case I believe it to be true) a product isn't delivering its expected results, then you should change products - this applies to all things. I don't carry my models around in the same crappy foam as everyone else simply because "everyone else does it," nor does my superior model carrying abilities commute an unfair advantage to me. Nor do I plan on using the same crappy dice I've been using - and acquiring precision dice doesn't commute an unfair advantage to me; ANYONE has the same ability as me to get the same dice I plan on getting. An unfair advantage means gaining advantage from something my opponent cannot, usually through underhanded means. Loaded dice would be an unfair advantage. If anything, Chessex dice are loaded - not in the convention that most wargamers would prefer, but loaded to not roll accurately nonetheless. If you like, consider this being me refusing to cheat anymore with loaded dice.

But consider this - in six of my last ten games, my Baron has failed his first 2++ save. In two other games, he's failed his 2++ in the first three rolls. Ghazghkull Thraka leads my army, and is famous for getting 2-3 out of 7 hits (on a 3+), and on taking saves, I've more than once rolled almost 50% 1s (like taking nine saves and rolling four 1s.)

I choose to add another aspect of legitimacy to my hobby.

ph34r wrote:

nkelsch wrote:A few things:

1. They do not roll more 1's... That is a myth. Rounded dice can be unbalanced and can become favored to *ANY* side. Your dice can be unbalanced and predisposed to roll 5's just as much as 1's. Rolling more 1's was a clever way to sell how unbalanced imperfect dice destroy the game when it really doesn't. Technically you could buy 1000 rounded dice and then test them until you found a majority that were predisposed to 5-6s and then keep a few 1-2s for LD roll dice.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
Myth? I think not.

Yes, myth... That article is propaganda and not scientific at all. It was written to justify cheating by using casino dice. Casino dice cannot be randomized in a wargaming situation because you need a flat surface and a bank. People use casino dice because they can control the outcome with simple rolling techniques and will do so for leadership rolls and invun saves.

http://dicephysics.info/ and other dice experiments are way more scientific. And in the dicephysics tests they rolled more 5s and 2s. The dice *ARE* unbalanced... but they are not predisposed to 1s... that is myth. They can be predisposed to any of the sides.

If someone wants 'statistically pure' dice for all rolls to bring integrity to the game, that's cool... share dice with your opponent. I call foul when someone pays for a perceived advantage because they think their opponent rolls 29% 1s and then won't share dice. As long as you share dice with your opponent and offer him the chance to have statistically pure rolls like you then all is good. If he doesn't want to use your dice, then it is on him, at least you offered. This is why almost all tourneys require dice sharing.

nkelsch wrote:

ph34r wrote:

nkelsch wrote:A few things:

1. They do not roll more 1's... That is a myth. Rounded dice can be unbalanced and can become favored to *ANY* side. Your dice can be unbalanced and predisposed to roll 5's just as much as 1's. Rolling more 1's was a clever way to sell how unbalanced imperfect dice destroy the game when it really doesn't. Technically you could buy 1000 rounded dice and then test them until you found a majority that were predisposed to 5-6s and then keep a few 1-2s for LD roll dice.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
Myth? I think not.

Yes, myth... That article is propaganda and not scientific at all. It was written to justify cheating by using casino dice. Casino dice cannot be randomized in a wargaming situation because you need a flat surface and a bank. People use casino dice because they can control the outcome with simple rolling techniques and will do so for leadership rolls and invun saves.

http://dicephysics.info/ and other dice experiments are way more scientific. And in the dicephysics tests they rolled more 5s and 2s. The dice *ARE* unbalanced... but they are not predisposed to 1s... that is myth. They can be predisposed to any of the sides.

If someone wants 'statistically pure' dice for all rolls to bring integrity to the game, that's cool... share dice with your opponent. I call foul when someone pays for a perceived advantage because they think their opponent rolls 29% 1s and then won't share dice. As long as you share dice with your opponent and offer him the chance to have statistically pure rolls like you then all is good. If he doesn't want to use your dice, then it is on him, at least you offered. This is why almost all tourneys require dice sharing.

I would be much more inclined to see that as relevent if they actually had results from the small GW/chessex style dice. All your link tells us is that an assortment of various low quality dice of unspecified type tend to not roll more 1s. The Dakka analysis tells us that the small, rounded dice, tend to roll more ones. Want to disprove an engineer? Do it with results, not with unrelated data and myth-calling. Your position as of now is unsupported and reeks of your personal opinion. Find contradictory data on the same type of dice.

nkelsch wrote:

Yes, myth... That article is propaganda and not scientific at all. It was written to justify cheating by using casino dice. Casino dice cannot be randomized in a wargaming situation because you need a flat surface and a bank. People use casino dice because they can control the outcome with simple rolling techniques and will do so for leadership rolls and invun saves.

Your words will carry more weight if you stop throwing around unsubstantiated generalizations.

I have some of the Koplow dice with the square corners and they roll great (perhaps too good even but Ill share if asked). They do have the etched pips but I do not think it is making much difference if any. For the money, choice of color, and non sharp corners I would go with the big K.

This thread wreaks of fail tbh, and imo i dont even know why im replying.

Take these things into consideration though,

1. Its a bloody game, its not like the world is gonna end if you lose the match
2. Dice are dice, each side having a 16.6%ish chance of landing on a specific number.
3. IIRC Warhammer isnt about brutally beating you opponent into the ground by rolling the exact rolls you need, its about having a laugh and a good experience for both players, even the person who comes off slightly worse should have had fun.

Now i may not be an engineer or w/e but (now this is based purely on personal opinion) but would using fully square dice create a disadvantage purely because they have a tad more weight to them than rounded corner dice?? Pretty much, more weight/more surface are = more for friction to work on (providing you roll the dice the way i do IE at like a 50 degree angle to the table to let the dice actually roll istead of a 80 degree angle where the dice hit the table and stop dead.

Easiest solution, either use the same dice or buy some in the same shape and style as your opponent, any chances to cheat are lowered (obviously if some1 gets 6 every single time with 20 dice you know something is up).

ph34r wrote:If someone wants 'statistically pure' dice for all rolls to bring integrity to the game, that's cool... share dice with your opponent. I call foul when someone pays for a perceived advantage because they think their opponent rolls 29% 1s and then won't share dice. As long as you share dice with your opponent and offer him the chance to have statistically pure rolls like you then all is good. If he doesn't want to use your dice, then it is on him, at least you offered. This is why almost all tourneys require dice sharing.

I would be much more inclined to see that as relevent if they actually had results from the small GW/chessex style dice. All your link tells us is that an assortment of various low quality dice of unspecified type tend to not roll more 1s. The Dakka analysis tells us that the small, rounded dice, tend to roll more ones. Want to disprove an engineer? Do it with results, not with unrelated data and myth-calling. Your position as of now is unsupported and reeks of your personal opinion. Find contradictory data on the same type of dice.

I do love how everyone who clings to that dakka article like it is the gospel forgets this part:

"One thing to consider is that all games workshop games (and most boardgames in general) are designed with these dice and so should reflect this in the gameplay accordingly. If you see somebody using games workshop dice for leadership tests and vegas style dice for everything else, then you can be sure that they are trying to get an unfair advantage though! Try to ensure you are using the same dice as your opponent"

If everyone has unbalanced dice, it is fair. Casino dice are cheating. Sharing dice is the only fair way to play the game. Which is why I am glad that tourneys call people on dice cheating by forcing dice sharing.

I have seen multiple studies and the only one that showed the dice were more prone to 1's was the one purposely trying to prove a point for wargaming where 1's have a detrimental result. I also respect machine rolling in a controlled environment over handrolling by students in an experiment actively trying to prove a specific outcome. Warped dice do exist... and they are predisposed to warp in such a way to favor a specific side, not always 1. And I also question the validity of the 29%, the 19% is may more reasonable and in line with the results done by other experiments with warped dice. No one has come close to the 29%.

You can go to the warseer thread which has a lot of valid unanswered questions without the experiment which makes me suspect it as a whole. The study reeks of pushing an agenda and personal bias and a process influenced by human interference.

Regardless if you believe 29% 1's or not... Get your balanced dice and prepare to share them. If you try to use casino dice, you are a cheater as they have no place in a wargaming environment as they cannot be randomized when rolling on a wargaming surface and are easily influenced and controlled especially when used for leadership and armorsaves.

Nkelsch, accusing people who wish to use fair rules and fair dice as cheating is pushing beyond the boundaries of civility. Don't do it again. You've expressed your personal opinion, no more is required.

I have a bunch of the Lou Zocchi dice.

What I use for 40K is the standard GW block. I have three or four of these. I shake the dice well in a cup.

Because most opponents are also using the GW dice, there are sometimes some swaps.

When you're rolling with a cup from a pool of 100 dice it's impossible to distinguish individual dice as rolling well or badly. Whether they are fully random or not, they may as well be.

Here we go again...

Really? Haven't we hammered out in the last, I don't know, dozen or so tear-fests about precision/casino dice that they don't really end up rolling any more 6's than the cheap ones?

FWIW, here's my take on the matter.
This is a copypasta of an email I sent to Dash (edited spelling errors & language):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just for the record, this is not the answer you asked for.

I used to have problems similar to yours. I don't care what ANYONE says. Those little chessex dice roll more ones. Period. End of story.

I switched to Koplow dice. You can get them in 12mm and 16mm sizes. There might be others, but that's what I've experienced.
They're square edged, but they do have pips. I find them to be exceedingly average (with the exception of my last 2 games, when they died on me and sucked [self edit]. LOL).

The guy I bought mine from is a seller on feebay called "godboma." I've bought a LOT of dice from him and, after I linked to him in a thread here somewhere, a lot of other Dakkites have, too.

http://shop.ebay.com/godboma/m.html

I know this isn't the specific answer you were looking for, but I think you'll find it to be a reasonable way to get by until you get those dice you're looking for.

Words of advice:
He'll accept "best offers" and, if you tell him the quantity you want to buy, he'll tell you what he can give them to you for.
For example, I bought 60 16mm dice from him in 3 different colors, and he discounted the hell out of them. I mean, his prices are reasonable enough that you won't really *need* a discount but, hey. Why not take one when yo can get it? LOL

Hope that helps.

Eric
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My buddy Paul has a set of Precision Dice, great dice. I think it was around 80$~ for a set of twenty 16mm

You might want to contact AgeofEgos, he put up this thread looking to order some awhile back:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/310239.page

He is local to them apparently, but this is the website for the dice he was thinking of getting (I believe he said specifically which ones in the thread above, I don't have time to check atm):
http://midwestgamesupply.com/

I just replaced my GF9 dice because they rolled way to many 1's. The GW dice cubes were recommended to me because they produce average results. I bought a few and tried them out and I have to agree. My rolls were not poor and they were not spectacular... They were average. So I recommend giving the GW dice a shot.

I recommend the good old fashioned chessex pound o' dice.

As a person who uses the dice he got from the AoBR set, DnD dice, monopoly, spaceopoly (great game btw), and the dice that moonlight as rooks in my incomplete chess set I must say that this thread seems rather odd to me.

Nonetheless, if a certain type of dice roll 1’s a disproportionate number of times it’s nice to know about it.

oddly enough i had my micrometer out just this weekend checking some dice.

the small white dice that came in the warhammer basic set were within .02mm on average for the dozen or so i checked. while some other dice i had like the clear red chessex dice were pretty radically varied even on the same sides of the dice. Some other square cornered dice i had were off by as much as .1mm being a flat.

I do not recommend pound o' dice. The dice vary a Lot, you will get all kinds, with all different shapes, sizes, colors, and numbering systems (numerical, pips, etc). I got this a long time ago and we found two dice that rolled distinctly low. They got relegated to use for Axis & Allies (we all used them, so no one person had an advantage, but they sure as heck rolled a lot of 1's... which are desirable in that board game).

It's a fun purchase, but not very suitable for gaming, imho. The D&D style bag of all different kinds of dice looks awesome, but is hard to use for a game like warhammer, where it's helpful to have lot of dice that are the same color and size, with just a few different colored ones for fast dice rolling purposes.

Edit: While I think this is right on:

nkelsch wrote:1. They do not roll more 1's... That is a myth. Rounded dice can be unbalanced and can become favored to *ANY* side. Your dice can be unbalanced and predisposed to roll 5's just as much as 1's.

As I had a block of GW dice that rolled 5's and 6's llike nobody's business (so much so I stopped using them out of guilt ). However, I think small backgammon dice (squared edged but small) are an excellent way to go for what you're looking for DoP, and I believe that's what AgeofEgos was ordering in that thread I linked to.

The point about manipulating rolls for large squared-edged dice is fair, but imho doesn't apply to small dice square-edged dice... it's definitely much harder to do.

OP, you are confusing a symptom with the disease. Your problem is that your dice do not perform for you. And why should they? You view them as inferior, and have exposed them to 'better' dice that you hold up as an example. It is time to show those dice who is the boss.

That's you, by the way, not your bloody dice.

So what you need to do is make an example of some of your dice. Personally, I suggest taking out your frustrations on the Casino dice you have because your dice view them as the pinnacle of dicekind. Beating them with a hammer, while satisfying, can lead to ragged and dangerous shards. If you have a good drill and a vice or some clamps- one or the other will not work, then you can give it a new hole while the others watch. Explain what you're doing and why to them, and threaten them liberally. Alternatively, you can toss a few problem dice into your freezer to chill for a few days.

And if you really want to shame your dice- paint the worst offender pink after every game, and keep it up until they improve or you need new dice because all of yours are pink. Keep them in a shrine of shame, and show these failures to your other dice to motivate them.

Above all, do not mix good or untried dice with your current bad dice. Bad company will corrupt any possible quality they might have.

Find some signatures of game designers or lucky folks, and rub the dice on them for luck. Left to right for higher numbers, and right to left for lower. No more than ten times though, unless you want to tempt the total inversion of your luck loading efforts.

Soon, even the dice-by-pound dice will bend to your will, and you will find your loyal geometric servants. Best of luck, dicelord.

Gitzbitah, thank you!!!! +100!!!

You have somehow angered the dice spirits by violating one of the dice mojo laws. You let someone else touch them didn't you?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Gitzbitah, thank you!!!! +100!!!

I'm a helper. Put those polyhedrons in their place!