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So I have a question that came up between my friend and I the other day. He was using Dark Eldar Radier and placed it sideways. He moved it 12 inches still sideways, and then pivoted on the spot facing forward to gain an additional 2-3 inches. He then proceeded to disembark and run his wyches and get in a nasty 1st turn assault.

Is he allowed to do that? It doesn't necessarily have to be a sideways move, but can he pivot on the spot after moving 12 inches, or is there some feasible way to get the position of the vehicle more than 12 inches?

As long as he was only pivoting it after moving he should be in the clear, as, until immobilized, you can always choose to pivot.

Far as I know you have to pivot before moving in a direction. I "think" it is supposed to go - Pivot, Measure for movement, Move, pivot again if desired.

I could be wrong though, I only use a monolith and there is only so much you can do with a square that has one access point.

*edit*
Actually ya, wouldn't matter as it's measured from the base anyway. Never mind.

I understand it the way Kevin949 does.

So your friend would have to pivot around the center of the vehicle, gaining a couple inches. Then move forwards 12 inches. He would then have to pivot about the center again to turn sideways, thereby losing the couple of inches he gained at the beginning of the move.

I'm sure someone who actually knows the rules will be along shortly to set us all straight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevin949 wrote:
Actually ya, wouldn't matter as it's measured from the base anyway. Never mind.

A skimmer's base is ignored except when assaulting the skimmer. You still measure from the hull.

Yes it is legal. There is nothing saying that you must pivot before, during or after your move. You can pivot any time during your movement. How you move a vehicle is outlined in the Vehicle Movement section and it doesn't say anything about having to pivot before you move. Therefore, he can start with his side adjacent to the deployment line, move sideways 12" (measuring from the hull), then pivot on the center and gain 2-3". Ork players and battlewagons do it frequently.

kmdl1066 wrote:I understand it the way Kevin949 does.

So your friend would have to pivot around the center of the vehicle, gaining a couple inches. Then move forwards 12 inches. He would then have to pivot about the center again to turn sideways, thereby losing the couple of inches he gained at the beginning of the move.

I understand that much. But what if the vehicle was placed sideways in deployment. He then pivots giving him an extra inches, and then moves the 12?

Soulx wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:I understand it the way Kevin949 does.

So your friend would have to pivot around the center of the vehicle, gaining a couple inches. Then move forwards 12 inches. He would then have to pivot about the center again to turn sideways, thereby losing the couple of inches he gained at the beginning of the move.

I understand that much. But what if the vehicle was placed sideways in deployment. He then pivots giving him an extra inches, and then moves the 12?

Yes, it still works. The vehicle rules say you measure to and from the hull. If you pivot first, you must measure from the hull to your movement spot. But, you've already gained the extra inches from pivoting. So, if you pivot first, you can 2-3" at the beginning of the movement, then measure from the front hull. Or you can measure from the side hull, move 12" and then pivot. It's the same thing in different clothes.

Edit: It should be noted that this is often considered beardy, or cheesy. It is legal, but don't expect your opponent to be happy about it.

Soulx wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:I understand it the way Kevin949 does.

So your friend would have to pivot around the center of the vehicle, gaining a couple inches. Then move forwards 12 inches. He would then have to pivot about the center again to turn sideways, thereby losing the couple of inches he gained at the beginning of the move.

I understand that much. But what if the vehicle was placed sideways in deployment. He then pivots giving him an extra inches, and then moves the 12?

Yeah, that's my understanding. If he doesn't want to end sideways he should have the extra couple inches 'cause he would just pivot, move. The net effect is the same as move sideways then pivot, unless he doesn't have the room to pivot at the start of his movement.

The disadvantage is you're deployed sideways, so if you don't go first you're more vulnerable to shooting. Is the Raider open topped so he doesn't have to worry about access points?

Edit: Of course for skimmers the only "does he have the room" consideration will probably be would pivoting at the start of movement have any part of the raider pivot off the table.

kmdl1066 wrote:
The disadvantage is you're deployed sideways, so if you don't go first you're more vulnerable to shooting. Is the Raider open topped so he doesn't have to worry about access points?

Raiders are 10 all around, so he probably doesn't care if he shows his side or his front.

puma713 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:
The disadvantage is you're deployed sideways, so if you don't go first you're more vulnerable to shooting. Is the Raider open topped so he doesn't have to worry about access points?

Raiders are 10 all around, so he probably doesn't care if he shows his side or his front.

Because raiders are essentially flying rectangles, if it's deployed sideways it becomes more of a target, but can pivoted for those extra few inches.


Alright I understand it now, thanks for all the help.

Soulx wrote:But what if the vehicle was placed sideways in deployment. He then pivots giving him an extra inches, and then moves the 12?

Yes. No. Maybe.

There are two common schools of thought on this. The one says that it's ok to pivot the vehicle before moving, thus gaining a little extra movement on non-square vehicles.

The other says that the pivot happens as you move, so you should start your measurement from the vehicle's initial position. This interpretation prevents the extra distance by pivoting trick, but also runs into problems given that pivoting is not supposed to reduce a vehicle's movement... but does under this interpretation if you are, for example, turning 180 degress in order to move to the vehicle's rear.



To complicate matters further, the rules are not particularly clear on there being any actual requirement to move vehicles forwards, although that is the normal assumption. Under the first (and from my experience, most common) interpretation of the measurement rules it doesn't actually matter, though... In your original example, he would have gained the same amount of distance whether he moved sideways and then pivoted, or pivoted first and moved straight ahead.

A great man once said:

"There is no rule that says you cannot do this. The BRB also doesn't exclude me from renting a woodchipper, and throwing your models through it."

This is cheesey as all F. In a friendly game, if he really needs to eek out that slight advantage on you, than he's afraid of you, and you're already winning in life.

So I would call him a desperate WAAC jackdonkey, and let the game continue.

Cottonjaw wrote:A great man once said:

"There is no rule that says you cannot do this. The BRB also doesn't exclude me from renting a woodchipper, and throwing your models through it."

This is cheesey as all F. In a friendly game, if he really needs to eek out that slight advantage on you, than he's afraid of you, and you're already winning in life.

So I would call him a desperate WAAC jackdonkey, and let the game continue.

Amen Brother...

No namecalling required, please.

It's worked exactly this way since I started playing 12 years ago, in three different editions of the game. GW's had ample chance to change it, and hasn't.

It's really not a big deal.

Especially since everyone but Necrons and Tyranids has equal opportunity to use this technique...

Monoliths are square, and nids have no tanks, or they'd likely be doing it too..

Cottonjaw - definitely not needed. Not cheesy, not new and certainly 100% within the rules GW has had since 1998 to change / FAQ / whatever. This is WELL known to the studio.

Vehicles are not even required to move straight forward, as their movement rules at not time override the initial infantry rules. (odd as that sounds, but cehck up on it if you dont believe me )

"Turning does not reduce the vehicles move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move." Implies that vehicles should move forwards or backwards. But really, who cares?

I think that 99% of the time pivot-move-pivot is going to leave the vehicle in the same situation as just "move at strange angle." And without accidentally (or not so accidentally) gaining/losing distance with bad pivoting.

IMplies, but never overrides the explicit allowance infantry have to move in any direction.

Ascalam wrote:Especially since everyone but Necrons and Tyranids has equal opportunity to use this technique...

Monoliths are square, and nids have no tanks, or they'd likely be doing it too..

How about bigger MC's oval bases? could that be done?
Then again, for what purpose... ?

It blows, but it's legal.

Yes it can be done. And the purpose is, mainly, to get you into an assault you couldnt otherwise make.

Which just leaves the Necrons odd-man-out again, but they're used to that The Necron MC's are on terminator-sized bases or flying bases (and the Tomb spyder is so tiny )

Well, the big FW model is on an oval base, if that helps. And you may well get a similarly sized model in your new book....

Ya, the tomb stalker is on an oval base and the first time I brought it out I certainly used that to my advantage as much as possible.