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So for those of you that dont know I made a very mobile tau list thats been working wonders for me, what I'm trying to do is hammer it out and make it more of a, "lots of minimized units" list. As I think the low model count will hurt me in the long run. Basically I'm trying to skim off unneeded points to make the army larger and more spread out pointwise.

Here's the old list. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/346240.page

HQ Shas'el = 112
plasma/missile/MT, HW gun drone x2, bonding knife
Elite Crisis Team x3 = 186
plasma/missile/MT x3

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 216
plasma/missile/MT x3
leader: Bonding knife, HW gun drone x2

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 216
plasma/missile/MT x3
leader: Bonding knife, HW gun drone x2

Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = 100
disruption pod, multi-tracker, TA

Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = 100
disruption pod, multi-tracker, TA

Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = 100
disruption pod, multi-tracker, TA

Fast Attack Piranha x3 = 205
fusion blaster x3, disruption pod x2

Fast Attack Piranha x3 = 205
fusion blaster x3, disruption pod x2

Fast Attack Piranha x3 = 205
fusion blaster x3, disruption pod x2

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

=2500

So I basically added 4 more suits (making them less effective overall, but spreading my eggs into different baskets though and adding more shots overall). I took the TA's and the TL's off the piranhas as their main job is to block anyway and I had too many complaints about them splitting fire (even though I made sure to fire all of the drone in the squadron at one unit) so I just took them out, and seeing as how they wont be splitting fire I removed the TA's as 3 shots at one target is a statistical hit.
I took the knives and leadership off the FW squads too as I usually always get them into assault range and rapidfire, and if there's something left after the smoke clears it usually wipes the firewarrior squad in cc so no real point in spending that many points on 3 knives.
And I know a lot of you are going to hate the fact that I switched the shield drones to gun drones but hey, I plan on deepstriking units that can outshoot the suits and hopefully kill them, in which case shield drones dont really help and in an assault... most enemies can do more than 2 wounds a turn in which case shield drones are also pretty useless. The alternative would be to take the MT's off the hammerheads and I'd rather have them be super mobile. So what do you think of the changes?

P.S. please dont even mention broadsides, I know what you're thinking and the answer is NO.

/shrug

I meant what I said on the last thread and it still holds. I think your list is severely underpowered. You'll be running into monster death-star units and try to kill them with tons of S5 shots. It might work, but it probably won't. You're deliberately not taking the second-best unit in the codex (broadsides), and you're not taking enough of the BEST unit in the codex (crisis suits). Instead you're running a ton of one of the worst units in the codex (fire warriors). They also happen to be worse than your alternative troop choice (kroot). I think you're running too few troop choices, too many piranha, and not enough good stuff, like crisis suits. At 2500 points, you definitely have enough points that you should run no less than 12-15 crisis suits, including 6 HQ suits with BS4 plasma/missile pods.

I don't think your list is good, and I don't even see any substantive differences between this list and your last one.

Personnally, The core of your list looks good but I am not seeing the Piranas role. Frankly getting within 6" with 11A
Open-topped vehicles is sounding like very dead to me. Perhaps 3 singles but why not 2 more crisis suit plasma/missle squads of 3 and then perhaps lose one hammerhead for 3 broadsides? Properly outfitted, that gives you 12 S7 missles, 6(12) S6 plasma and 3 TL S10 railgun shots for giving up 9 S8 fusion gun and 1 S10 railgun shot.

Another dislike is no markerlights - that means everything is a bunch of BS 3 junk. Markerlights allow you to focus on one or more targets. I would like to see at least one pathfinder unit out there to allow you to go BS5 on something that really needs killing now. I mean look at it,
say 10 termies are getting close to you, you send one XV8 unit at it. 12 S6 shots, 6 hit, 5 wound and likewise 12 S7 missile shots for 5 wounds. That is talking about 4 dead termies. Add just two marker lightes and we go to about 9 + 9 wounds or about 7 dead termies. Markerlights are the tau ace-in-the-hole

Knute wrote:/shrug

I meant what I said on the last thread and it still holds. I think your list is severely underpowered. You'll be running into monster death-star units and try to kill them with tons of S5 shots. It might work, but it probably won't. You're deliberately not taking the second-best unit in the codex (broadsides), and you're not taking enough of the BEST unit in the codex (crisis suits). Instead you're running a ton of one of the worst units in the codex (fire warriors). They also happen to be worse than your alternative troop choice (kroot). I think you're running too few troop choices, too many piranha, and not enough good stuff, like crisis suits. At 2500 points, you definitely have enough points that you should run no less than 12-15 crisis suits, including 6 HQ suits with BS4 plasma/missile pods.

I don't think your list is good, and I don't even see any substantive differences between this list and your last one.

Well a problem with doing 6 HQ suits at BS4 is that its upwards 300 points, whereas I've fit in 4 for the same price.
I have to agree with you that firewarriors are not my favorite infantry but they are very mobile and that i like about them. And while I might not be using enough crisis suits I am using 10 now compared to the 6 I had. As far as my hatred for broadsides, let me give you a hint of who I play against the most at my store. Deepstriking blood angels, tyranids, foot orks, and Dark eldar. For the prior 3 armies broadsides are lackluster compared to the versatility and mobility of the hammerhead, and the last list... I use the missile pods to burst the transports and the hammerhead uses the pie plate to pwn the infantry.

DAaddict wrote:Personnally, The core of your list looks good but I am not seeing the Piranas role. Frankly getting within 6" with 11A
Open-topped vehicles is sounding like very dead to me. Perhaps 3 singles but why not 2 more crisis suit plasma/missle squads of 3 and then perhaps lose one hammerhead for 3 broadsides? Properly outfitted, that gives you 12 S7 missles, 6(12) S6 plasma and 3 TL S10 railgun shots for giving up 9 S8 fusion gun and 1 S10 railgun shot.

Another dislike is no markerlights - that means everything is a bunch of BS 3 junk. Markerlights allow you to focus on one or more targets. I would like to see at least one pathfinder unit out there to allow you to go BS5 on something that really needs killing now. I mean look at it,
say 10 termies are getting close to you, you send one XV8 unit at it. 12 S6 shots, 6 hit, 5 wound and likewise 12 S7 missile shots for 5 wounds. That is talking about 4 dead termies. Add just two marker lightes and we go to about 9 + 9 wounds or about 7 dead termies. Markerlights are the tau ace-in-the-hole

The role of the piranhas is to be a huge roadblock for transports as well as a transport killer. This has been particularly effective against orks and space marines as if they dont destroy the piranhas then they have to try and tank shock through them which usually fails effectively wasting a turn of movement. Against other tau players they have been extremely effective against broadsides as not only do they have to worry about 3 fusion blasters which will instakill them, but they may waste firepower that otherwise would have been directed at my hammerheads or transports. Also piranhas are open-topped, so if I get close to a unit that is particularly weak at assault I can actually detach the drones after I move, fire their carbines and then assault. Or, against a unit that is particularly good at assault like termies I can shoot the fusion blasters at them have detached the drones to the side and then in the assault phase, move the 6" in front of the piranhas forming a meatshield to save the piranhas. In short, they're a fairly expensive but extremely versatile unit that I feel a lot of tau players overlook and are actually only a few points more than a fireknife suit.

Uh hmm the other thing is I already have 3 squads of 3 plasma/missile crisis suits and thus cannot add anymore unless I make them HQ.
The points difference between a squad of 3 broadsides with drones and stabilization systems and a railhead is also huge... we're talking over 100 points here. Also d6" movement is hardly comparable to a move and shoot of 12" and against a lot of armies that means you'll get easily overwhelmed by fast units.
If broadsides were cheaper I'd totally use them! But alas they are not.
I appreciate your input more than knutes of course, as he seems to like to troll me rather than read the first sentences of my posts lol. Dont think he read the "lots of minimal units" part.

Not enough STR10 @ 2500.

A single hammerhead is perhaps as much points as you can spare in the heavy support FOC at 2500. You will see triple land raider, double monolith, triple dakkafex squads, and all manner of other nastiness at this point cost. As a direct result you need to counter that with broadsides. @2500 I would have 4 (in two squads of two) at a bare minimum, but I would suggest making the points for two squads of 3 with team leaders /w Shield Drones.

There are plenty of places to shave points. Drop those fire warriors down to 10 man squads and you've got 60. Drop a fire warrior squad all together and replace it with 20 Kroot Carnivores who can outflank/ninja objectives and you've got even more points. Piranha's... yeah. Tons of places to lose points which can be made up with the best weapon in the game.

Cottonjaw wrote:Not enough STR10 @ 2500.

A single hammerhead is perhaps as much points as you can spare in the heavy support FOC at 2500. You will see triple land raider, double monolith, triple dakkafex squads, and all manner of other nastiness at this point cost. As a direct result you need to counter that with broadsides. @2500 I would have 4 (in two squads of two) at a bare minimum, but I would suggest making the points for two squads of 3 with team leaders /w Shield Drones.

There are plenty of places to shave points. Drop those fire warriors down to 10 man squads and you've got 60. Drop a fire warrior squad all together and replace it with 20 Kroot Carnivores who can outflank/ninja objectives and you've got even more points. Piranha's... yeah. Tons of places to lose points which can be made up with the best weapon in the game.

correct me if I'm wrong but wouldnt a triple landraider list be easy for me with 9 piranhas? The carnifex would be harder but I can have 2 squads of firewarriors AND their transports and then some for the cost of 3 basic carnifex and plasma makes even shorter work of the beasts. And double monolith? I'd probably just ignore the things and try to phase my opponent out, why kill something that you can outrun and outgun? On the other hand have you considered the amount of trouble broadsides would be in if the monolith landed on them and brought out a uni of warriors. Do you think I should make more room for crisis suits though? apparently 10 is not enough.

i really like this list but only thing i would change is suits. I think fireknives need either: targeting array or markerlights. So maybe deathrains? They are cheap and effective

I'm starting to wonder why you even posted here, it just seems like you are shooting all ideas down because of their supposed weaknesses, so before you jump on me, hear me out. Also, it is hard to critique a tau list becuase if one thing changes, another thing has to be altered. Seems like the Tau need so much synergy that those things have to happen

The reason people say you should take broadsides is because they are the embodiment of tau competitiveness, yeah, 9 piranhas are nice, but try facing mech guard for once ( who if I remember you didn't mention). Your piranhas will drown in the sea of str 6-7, quickly. Not to mention that armor 10 open-topped vehicles are not the most durable of units, even with disruption pods.

Broadsides, on the other hand, are expensive BUT very very cost efficient. While 3 piranhas average 1 hit as you said, who says that you will roll a 7 or more (to pen armor 14)? With B-sides you average at least 2 hits and only need 5s to pen, not to mention they make a mockery of all other armor in the game.

Another reason why B-sides are so good is that they specialize in area denial. What this means that if you put your B-sides on the right side of the field, chances are that your opponent won't try to deploy everything on that side of the table in open LOS. I have seen people physically cringe when I put my B-sides on the table and slump when I declare shooting for them.

/rant

Other parts of your list confuses me as well, you mention minimum sized squads in your description, however you go on to have 3 squads of maximum sized Firewarriors and maxed out piranhas. My first suggestion is to cut down the FW squads to the minumum 6, the reasoning being that 12 FWs will die as quickly in the open as a 6 man squad. Also, the fish of fury tactic has been somewhat neutered and it is not worth putting out our precious troops out in the open. With that points +the points you can take off the piranhas and a hammerhead or two, you can buy a nice shiny broadside squad.

With that, you don't need that many piranhas at all. as stared before, if you have too many piranahas, then THEY will become the center of attention, and we tau players REALLY don't want our fragile little melta carriers to be targeted quickly. I would suggest getting rid of one squad completely and then reducing the other squads from trios to duos. The reasoning behind reducing the number is that you can add TA (as an effective melta carrier) or flechette dischargers (for effective infantry/tank blocking). Both choices are viable but I believe you need at least one of the choices or your piranhas won't end up doing much.

With that open spot in the Fast Attack FOC, you can add a squad of pathfinders and a devilfish for the bane of 40k armies, markerlights. They are just too valuable to leave out of any high point tau list. Another reason to take them is that they are targeted some times, which releases some of the pressure on you more valuable units. Also, you can get rid of one of your FWs fish (or add another FW squad without a fish in the FOC) because the pathfinders come with a fish.

While I’m talking about troops, you need more. In 2.5K you should have at least 4 troop choices, if not 5. As I suggested before, you can downsize the FW squads and add some more squads OR get kroot. Kroot are the best, that’s about it, if you need proof, look here.
http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=12937
In fact, I would suggest browsing the entire Academy Article section for good tips and tactics.

Thank you for reading, please take some of my suggestions into consideration.
Sorry about the wall of text, here is some consolidation

http://www.clubrapid.com/picture/136

mythological wrote:...it just seems like you are shooting all ideas down because of their supposed weaknesses, so before you jump on me, hear me out. Also, it is hard to critique a tau list becuase if one thing changes, another thing has to be altered. Seems like the Tau need so much synergy that those things have to happen...

Well first off let me apologize, I dont mean to seem cranky its just that I hate it when people say, "do this cause this is how I play and I'm not gonna give a reasoning as to why!", and I love your post as it gives a lot of reasoning as to why you like the units you do. And yes, like any army I acknowledge that cuts in certain areas require alterations in the other parts.

mythological wrote:
...The reason people say you should take broadsides is because they are the embodiment of tau competitiveness, yeah, 9 piranhas are nice, but try facing mech guard for once ( who if I remember you didn't mention). Your piranhas will drown in the sea of str 6-7, quickly. Not to mention that armor 10 open-topped vehicles are not the most durable of units, even with disruption pods...

I myself used to run 6 broadsides in my army and was constantly overwhelmed by outflankers, deepstrikers and units that were very fast and in high numbers. Thus far I've not had the problems in firepower replacing the broadsides with the hammerheads, and in my experiences the hammerheads tend to live longer because they have the ability to move very far and shoot. That being said I have to also say that a group of 3 broadsides with targetlocks are simply amazing at splitting fire and destroying multiple armored targets but their lack of mobility is dangerous. The piranhas do tend to die to the heavier shots, but this isnt always a bad thing, the craters they leave behind further impair the movement of the enemy, also they can soak up a lot of fire that otherwise would probably would have been directed to crisis suits, and that's not a good thing as crisis suits are the most reliable thing the tau have against elite armies. Do you think you could give me a link to a good mech guard army just to see what its capable of? I havent played against one myself.

mythological wrote:
...Broadsides, on the other hand, are expensive BUT very very cost efficient. While 3 piranhas average 1 hit as you said, who says that you will roll a 7 or more (to pen armor 14)? With B-sides you average at least 2 hits and only need 5s to pen, not to mention they make a mockery of all other armor in the game...
Another reason why B-sides are so good is that they specialize in area denial. What this means that if you put your B-sides on the right side of the field, chances are that your opponent won't try to deploy everything on that side of the table in open LOS. I have seen people physically cringe when I put my B-sides on the table and slump when I declare shooting for them...

This is a good point, I think the odds are just as good as a broadside with one shot, though this does not hold true against monoliths, stormravens or wave serpents in which case railguns are far superior of course 2 hits are always better than 1. But I do see your point about the area denial, people wont deploy in los unless they have some sort of cover save. But it is a case of area denial vs movement denial.

mythological wrote:
...you mention minimum sized squads in your description, however you go on to have 3 squads of maximum sized Firewarriors and maxed out piranhas...

Well the firewarriors are short some points sparing the leadership and bonding knife, and the piranhas are only in squads of 3 and lack the TA's and TL's. But the minimizing thing was more about using lots of ok equipped crisis suits vs the 6 pimped out HQ ones.

mythological wrote:
...My first suggestion is to cut down the FW squads to the minumum 6, the reasoning being that 12 FWs will die as quickly in the open as a 6 man squad. Also, the fish of fury tactic has been somewhat neutered and it is not worth putting out our precious troops out in the open. With that points +the points you can take off the piranhas and a hammerhead or two, you can buy a nice shiny broadside squad...

I really try to be as opportunistic with my fw's as possible which is why I use FoF, so I can move about full speed shooting until a squishy target appears for the FW's. But yes, it would probably be better to drop them down to 6 and drop the TA's on the fish to add things like kroot, better/more crisis suits, or even *cough**gag* *ow!* a unit of broadsides.

mythological wrote:
...With that, you don't need that many piranhas at all. as stared before, if you have too many piranahas, then THEY will become the center of attention, and we tau players REALLY don't want our fragile little melta carriers to be targeted quickly. I would suggest getting rid of one squad completely and then reducing the other squads from trios to duos. The reasoning behind reducing the number is that you can add TA (as an effective melta carrier) or flechette dischargers (for effective infantry/tank blocking). Both choices are viable but I believe you need at least one of the choices or your piranhas won't end up doing much...

A tactic I've been using lately is sending 2 of the squadrons forward to their doom and leaving one in reserve to flank the enemy or destroy drop podding vehicles. I kinda like them being a target though as it does alleviate a lot of pressure from the hammerheads and suits. But yes, I could probably consider making it 3 units of upgraded 2 piranhas.

mythological wrote:
...With that open spot in the Fast Attack FOC, you can add a squad of pathfinders and a devilfish for the bane of 40k armies, markerlights. They are just too valuable to leave out of any high point tau list. Another reason to take them is that they are targeted some times, which releases some of the pressure on you more valuable units. Also, you can get rid of one of your FWs fish (or add another FW squad without a fish in the FOC) because the pathfinders come with a fish...

oddly enough I think I use piranhas the way you use pathfinders lol. I dunno though. What good are pathfinders if the enemy is more than 36" away from them? Not like they can run and catch em. But I agree that markerlights are handy. How do you feel about a squad of 3 stealth suits with 2 markerdrones and a markerlight on the leader? It would be less markerlights but they could infiltrate/deepstrike and keep on the move, which would synergize well with the rest of my list.

mythological wrote:
While I’m talking about troops, you need more. In 2.5K you should have at least 4 troop choices, if not 5. As I suggested before, you can downsize the FW squads and add some more squads OR get kroot. Kroot are the best, that’s about it, if you need proof, look here.
In fact, I would suggest browsing the entire Academy Article section for good tips and tactics.

Yea, many people have been suggesting this. And I dont think anyone will argue when I say that tau troops are the weakest link in the codex which is why I hesitate to add too much more. Kroot definitely have their value and if I decide to use broadsides again I will definitely add some. I dunno, I've got some hard choices to make. Thanks so much for your advice though.

Thank you for hearing me out, I will try to address all of your points.

I myself used to run 6 broadsides in my army and was constantly overwhelmed by outflankers, deepstrikers and units that were very fast and in high numbers.

I think I have a solution to your problem and they are avian and have no armor save, can you guess who they are?

Kroot, my dear friend, are the answer to all your problems in that regard, as you could soon find out, kroot can form a 'bubble-wrap' around your precious broadsides to give them an extra turn of shooting. Bubble wrapping, if you didn't know, is when you encirlce a unit with one of your own so that if the enemy wants to assualt the unit your protecting (b-sides) then the bubble wrap unit (kroot) will take the assualt. It is doubly good as kroot are sadly not that good in assualt, normally that makes me a sad panda, but in this case it is good as hopefully a dedicated assualt unit will wipe up the kroot handily in one turn of assualt, leaving them open to some tau lovin'

I use a combination of this strategy and a strategy call a refused flank, which in a way is area denial. What I would do is place my broadsides with their kroot bubble on one side of my deployment zone and the rest of my forces deploy on the other side. What this does is greatly narrows the battle field as your opponents have to decide whether to go for your main force, or the combination of kroot and broadsides neatly tucked away in cover.

I know your worried about you broadsides being assualted, however that is not as bad as you think. Notice how broadsides are not scoring, and many big bad assualt units cost a fair amount. What I do with this is place my broadsides AWAY from my objective(s), which makes the enemy chose again (in combo with the refused flank) whether to go for the dangerous broadsides or take out a lonely FW/ kroot squad on an objective.

A tactic I've been using lately is sending 2 of the squadrons forward to their doom and leaving one in reserve to flank the enemy or destroy drop podding vehicles. I kinda like them being a target though as it does alleviate a lot of pressure from the hammerheads and suits. But yes, I could probably consider making it 3 units of upgraded 2 piranhas.

This tactic can work very well in defending broadsides also, before you go all gung-ho with your piranhas, I would suggest disembarking the drones in your backfield. These drones (12 of them as your running, 2 squads of 6) can form a very effective blocking unit and with that makes them less likely to give up KP as they aren't disembarking into the wreck of your piranhas in the face of all your enemy's firepower up close.

oddly enough I think I use piranhas the way you use pathfinders lol. I dunno though. What good are pathfinders if the enemy is more than 36" away from them? Not like they can run and catch em. But I agree that markerlights are handy. How do you feel about a squad of 3 stealth suits with 2 markerdrones and a markerlight on the leader? It would be less markerlights but they could infiltrate/deepstrike and keep on the move, which would synergize well with the rest of my list.

If your pathfinders can't target anything anymore, then your side of the field is safe. The reasoning for this is that I deploy my pathfinders semi-aggresively to limit that problem, in fact, on some occasions I would inflitrate/scout my pathfinders to get them farther away from objectives/ the main force. This serves a triple focus:

1. it looks good in fluff, foward recon

2. Makes the enemy chose to shoot/ assualt something away from the body of my force

3. Gives them more targets as they are closer.

The problem I have with stealth marker teams (SMT from now on) is that they take up an elite slot. Sadly for them that slot should always be filled as much as possible with Crisis Suits. If the SMT/ stealth teams were troops, oh happy days, but disappointingly for them and us they are not. However, in apocaplse I always find a way to field my SMT as they are often overlooked and can light up some valuable targets.

This is actually only a 2300 point list but you can see what it can do:
http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-602-3074-0-Boyz-army-list-2500-Leaf-Blower-Guard.htm

As you can, this is called a 'Leaf blower' list, which features a lot of chimeras toting veteran squads, outflanking/ scouting vendettas with vet squads (all vet squads probably have melta), and artillery support, alot of artillery support. This list even has a platoon which can camp on the objective an have a picnic during the battle.

This list you are sporting (vehicles heavy) would get shot to pieces with the lascannons (Vendettas have 3) will take out your Devilfish chassis vehicles and the hydas/ multi-lazors can shoot your piranhas dead in a turn. With broadsides, the only thing that can reliably take down you broadsides is a vendetta (or 2) with melta vets. This is mostly because the manticores are only AP 3, which allows your b-sides an armor save, which in turn gives your shield drones a 2+ armor save as well (shield drones share armor saves with the unit they are in.

If you were wondering, here is my 2000 point list (2500 still WIP):

HQ: 82
Shas'El @ 92 (TL missile pod, flamer, HW TA, HW TL, bonding knife)

Elites: 533
Crisis teams Blaze (blue) and Burn (black) @ 196 each
..Team Leader @72(plasma rifle, fusion blaster, multi-tracker, bonding knife)
..2 Shas'ui @62(plasma rifle, missile pod, multi-tracker)

Crisis Team Flame @ 151
..Team Leader @ 57 (TL missile pod, flamer, HW Target lock)
..2 Shas’ui @47 each (TL missile pod, flamer)

Troops: 415
6 FWs (pulse rifles) @ 155
....Devilfish (flechette, disruption pod)

6 FWs @ 60 points

10 Kroot (5 kroot hounds) @100

10 Kroot (5 kroot hounds) @ 100

Fast Attack: 317
6 pathfinders @ 167
….Pathfinder’s Devilfish (flechette, disruption pod)

Piranha Squadron @ 150
..Piranha @ 75 (fusion blaster, flechette)
..Piranha @ 75 (fusion blaster, flechette)

Heavy Support: 628
Broadside team @ 288
..Team Leader (ASS, HW-target lock, HW drone controller, HW BSF, bonding knife)
....Shield drone
....Shield drone
..Shas'ui (ASS)
..Shas’ui (ASS)

2 Hammerhead @170 each (railgun, burst cannons, disruption pods, multi-tracker, target lock, BSF)

k so I made one more list without broadsides or pathfinders to get your advice on mythological. I dropped a lot of stuff and came up with my own suit team of sorts that I really just love the idea of. It simply consists of a crisis team of 3, with 2 TL missile/target lockers and a twin fusion/missile pod suit. The point of these teams would be to drop behind the enemy and wreak havoc on transports and artillery.

I like the idea as against certain armies its super fun! Imperial guard leman russ spam? Land behind em and shoot the soft underbelly! Land raider and rhinos? Land behind em, dual fusion the raider and shoot the raiders with missiles! It might even be impressive against mech eldar.

Anywho so here's the list.

HQ Shas'el = 87
plasma/missile/MT
Bodyguard x2= 164
plasma/missile/TA, HW MT x2

HQ Shas'el = 87
plasma/missile/MT
Bodyguard x2= 164
plasma/missile/TA, HW MT x2

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 151
TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 151
TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 151
TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod

Fast Attack Piranha x3 = 205
fusion blaster x3, disruption pod x2

Fast Attack Piranha x3 = 205
fusion blaster x3, disruption pod x2

Fast Attack Piranha x3 = 205
fusion blaster x3, disruption pod x2

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

= 2500

So what do you think about this list? I've got 2 groups of the accurate fireknives, the 3 mobile point takers, the up in your face fusion piranhas and the hammerheads. I was thinking about dropping a piranha from each squad and a pod from each squad to throw the firewarriors back in as well as the multitrackers on the devilfish. alternatively I could use the points from the piranhas to beef up the crisis teams a little. I think I could easily add in bonding knives and shield drones with some points to spare. So let me just make that list really quick too and you can tell me what you like better.

HQ Shas'el = 142
plasma/missile/MT, knife, HW shield drone x2, iridium armor
Bodyguard x2= 164
plasma/missile/TA, HW MT x2

HQ Shas'el = 122
plasma/missile/MT, knife, HW shield drone x2
Bodyguard x2= 164
plasma/missile/TA, HW MT x2

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 191
TL missiles/TL x2
leader: knife, HW shield drone x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 191
TL missiles/TL x2
leader: knife, HW shield drone x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 191
TL missiles/TL x2
leader: knife, HW shield drone x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod

Fast Attack Piranha x2 = 135
fusion blaster x2, disruption pod

Fast Attack Piranha x2 = 135
fusion blaster x2, disruption pod

Fast Attack Piranha x2 = 135
fusion blaster x2, disruption pod

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

= 2500

So... arguing against perhaps the best ranged weapon, definitely top 3, weapon in 40k... the broadsides TL Railgun.

Roger. So. Disregarding this thread forever.

Goodluck with your Failheads.

Cottonjaw wrote:So... arguing against perhaps the best ranged weapon, definitely top 3, weapon in 40k... the broadsides TL Railgun.

Roger. So. Disregarding this thread forever.

Goodluck with your Failheads.

You dont have to get mad just because I have a different playstyle in mind. but I just realized... you live in everett, wa! Lol instead of ignoring me and seeing how bad my list is, how about we get together and play each other? I live in everett, wa as well, right next to the mall! So what do you say, maybe we can agree to disagree and have a friendly game?

By the way I like the first like better, so I'll talk about that one

Your idea seems sound, however I would think twice (or three times if you have too) about having all three elite teams kitted out the same

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 151
TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod
x3

I have to say, Haven't seen this build recently. This could be a good anti-artillery force but I usually don't run 'suicide suits' so I really don't have much experience in the matter.

However I do know 1 thing, you don't have enough fireknives. (don't you roll your eyes at me)

Think about the upcoming GKs, what is going to make a bigger impact in the game?

-6 BS 4 plasma rifles
-6 BS 4 missile pods
-9 BS 3 missile pods
-3 BS 3fusion blasters

OR

-6 BS 4 plasma rifles
-6 BS 4 missile pods
-6 BS 3 plasma rifles
-9 BS 3 missile pods
-1 BS 3 fusion blaster

The only differences to the 2 are that in the second one, the first 2 teams have been switched to fireknives. And yes, I honestly don’t think 2 fireknife squads are enough. But 4 fireknife teams and 1 anti-artillery team would work nicely.

To troops now:
I’m gonna say it now, I think it would be better if some (if just the devilfish) vehicles had disruption pods. This is because you have so many vehicles that the things are bound to be assaulted.

Troop Firewarrior x6 = 60
Devilfish = 85
disruption pod
x3

My only complaint is no kroot, but I like that you reduced the FW squads to 6. As I said before, having kroot is a matter of preference and I'll leave it at that.

As I said with the earilier piranhas, the squadrons can be reduced when needed if you want to make changes.

Also a matter of preference, I like target locks on hammerheads as you can fire the railgun downfield while mowing down infantry close range

Also I just realized something.

Your list is optimized for Farsight, If you are willing to lose some piranhas then you can switch out an El for farsight and bodyguards. With him you get free bonding knives for your army and makes them somewhat better in CC (like paper towel to dishrag, but its an improvement). Just a crazy idea that I thought of on the spot

Mythological, I don't think you took into account the twin linked accuracy in your above comparison. I think if you do, you'll find BS3 fireknives only put out slightly higher wounds (to tired to math hammer right now) with a shorter effective range and a higher point cost.

It seems to me that unless he has markerlight support for his FKs, which is not the case, that the TL Missle pod suits are the better choice.

Ok, I have no idea how you got that points cost, I calc'ed it at 2172 pts, Either your upgrade listing skills are impractical or you calc'ed in wrong

mythological wrote:
Your idea seems sound, however I would think twice (or three times if you have too) about having all three elite teams kitted out the same

I am rethinking it trust me

mythological wrote:
...However I do know 1 thing, you don't have enough fireknives. (don't you roll your eyes at me)...
...Think about the upcoming GKs, what is going to make a bigger impact in the game?...
...I honestly don’t think 2 fireknife squads are enough. But 4 fireknife teams and 1 anti-artillery team would work nicely.

maybe 3 fireknives, 1 anti arty and a stealth marker team

mythological wrote:
To troops now:
I’m gonna say it now, I think it would be better if some (if just the devilfish) vehicles had disruption pods. This is because you have so many vehicles that the things are bound to be assaulted.

I dunno, usually I'm not too worried about them being assaulted as I've probably moved all out the previous turn, hitting on 6's is hard. I may take them off the piranhas though, as there isnt much of a point to them as if Ive moved all out it has the same benefit and up close its useless.

mythological wrote:
My only complaint is no kroot, but I like that you reduced the FW squads to 6. As I said before, having kroot is a matter of preference and I'll leave it at that.

kroot might be nice but with no broadsides seems kinda pointless.

mythological wrote:
Your list is optimized for Farsight, If you are willing to lose some piranhas then you can switch out an El for farsight and bodyguards. With him you get free bonding knives for your army and makes them somewhat better in CC (like paper towel to dishrag, but its an improvement). Just a crazy idea that I thought of on the spot

oddly enough I used to use him all the time, but hes kinda of a one trick pwny and power weapons dont really synergize well with the tau, although it is a good last resort. I lol'd at the paper towel to dishrag

Choboking wrote:Mythological, I don't think you took into account the twin linked accuracy in your above comparison. I think if you do, you'll find BS3 fireknives only put out slightly higher wounds (to tired to math hammer right now) with a shorter effective range and a higher point cost.

It seems to me that unless he has markerlight support for his FKs, which is not the case, that the TL Missle pod suits are the better choice.

I did the mathhammer as well and you are correct chobo he didnt factor in the Twin linked portion of his assessment, however, plasma does seem like the only reliable way of dealing with greyknights. Only problem is smart grey knights players will have that crazy OP plasma syphon thing, hitting on 6's with plasma will be rough, and might even make burst cannons a better choice as it would be more likely he fails his 2+ save then I actually hit him with plasma.

frogii_the_blue_horror wrote:Ok, I have no idea how you got that points cost, I calc'ed it at 2172 pts, Either your upgrade listing skills are impractical or you calc'ed in wrong

Lol the answer to this is easy, you failed to factor in the bodyguards for the HQ. 164 x2 = 328. 2500 - 328 = 2172

Mythological, I don't think you took into account the twin linked accuracy in your above comparison. I think if you do, you'll find BS3 fireknives only put out slightly higher wounds (to tired to math hammer right now) with a shorter effective range and a higher point cost.

It seems to me that unless he has markerlight support for his FKs, which is not the case, that the TL Missle pod suits are the better choice.

True, TL deathrains do get statistically more hits (and then wounds), but the change that I was thinking of is the increase in AP 2

Also, with a multi-tracker the fireknife has the ability to pump out 4 shots at 12" or less while the deathrains are only toting 2 TL shots

True, TL deathrains do get statistically more hits (and then wounds), but the change that I was thinking of is the increase in AP 2

Also, with a multi-tracker the fireknife has the ability to pump out 4 shots at 12" or less while the deathrains are only toting 2 TL shots

While the AP2 is very nice, the only problem I see with it is you are paying a premium and half of those shots are going to miss. With a TL MP you are taking twice the shots with more likleyhood to hit. This will at least force armor saves (which he will eventually fail) and keep you at a nice safe distance for less points cost.

Within 12'' I agree with you that FKs are the stronger choice. However, that is not a range you will want to be in with expensive suits as it makes it very likley they will be assaulted/killed on their next turn, and that is a big point cost to throw away.

True, TL deathrains do get statistically more hits (and then wounds), but the change that I was thinking of is the increase in AP 2

Also, with a multi-tracker the fireknife has the ability to pump out 4 shots at 12" or less while the deathrains are only toting 2 TL shots

While the AP2 is very nice, the only problem I see with it is you are paying a premium and half of those shots are going to miss. With a TL MP you are taking twice the shots with more likleyhood to hit. This will at least force armor saves (which he will eventually fail) and keep you at a nice safe distance for less points cost.

Within 12'' I agree with you that FKs are the stronger choice. However, that is not a range you will want to be in with expensive suits as it makes it very likley they will be assaulted/killed on their next turn, and that is a big point cost to throw away.

true, AP 2 is very nice and that is why it is so expensive. Even though you pay through the nose to get it, plasma rifles are on of the staples of the tau military IMHO

For example:

How many times have you ever wiped a 5ish man terminator squad with 2 deathrain squads? I would say none, but 2 fireknife squads can take out that threat quickly and easily

Also, with the now grey knights coming out, tau need plasma more than ever because of something called Paladins. Which, if you do not know, are termi's with 2 wounds, with an optoin to get FNP. As a counter argument, you might say that they can (I don't know for sure) take something called a Plasma Siphon which reduces the damage of plasma.

However plasma is one of the 3 things that can hurt those monsters, and without them he only has piranhas and 3 railheads to deal with that threat.

You can also state that the piranhas would be very effective, I would beg to differ as many new grey knights lists (and alot of other all-around lists of any race b/c of DE) have alot of str 7 that can toast your skimmers stupid fast.

Edit:
Even though getting within 12" with a single fireknive squad against a single fleet/ jump pack squads (the only infantry that can get them outside of 12" remember JSJ) 2 of the squads would clean up the threat nicely. Because if your fireknife/ suits squads are on opposite sides of the field, you already lost. This is because tau SHOULD NEVER split forces. The biggest strength the Tau have is their synergy and you better have supporting squads helping each other out with them.

That is another reason why 2 fireknive squads are not enough

mythological wrote:
true, AP 2 is very nice and that is why it is so expensive. Even though you pay through the nose to get it, plasma rifles are one of the staples of the tau military IMHO

For example:

How many times have you ever wiped a 5ish man terminator squad with 2 deathrain squads? I would say none, but 2 fireknife squads can take out that threat quickly and easily

Also, with the now grey knights coming out, tau need plasma more than ever because of something called Paladins. Which, if you do not know, are termi's with 2 wounds, with an optoin to get FNP. As a counter argument, you might say that they can (I don't know for sure) take something called a Plasma Siphon which reduces the damage of plasma.

However plasma is one of the 3 things that can hurt those monsters, and without them he only has piranhas and 3 railheads to deal with that threat.

You can also state that the piranhas would be very effective, I would beg to differ as many new grey knights lists (and alot of other all-around lists of any race b/c of DE) have alot of str 7 that can toast your skimmers stupid fast.

Edit:
Even though getting within 12" with a single fireknive squad against a single fleet/ jump pack squads (the only infantry that can get them outside of 12" remember JSJ) 2 of the squads would clean up the threat nicely. Because if your fireknife/ suits squads are on opposite sides of the field, you already lost. This is because tau SHOULD NEVER split forces. The biggest strength the Tau have is their synergy and you better have supporting squads helping each other out with them.

That is another reason why 2 fireknive squads are not enough

I actually agree with both of your points, fk's are extremely effective at shooting termies and mc's, using their jsj to back away and shoot again (after all you can move a total of 12" back and the termies can only move 6"+d6" forward) and you can outrun them til they corner you on a table edge. The problem with the fk's as stated though is that they are A: more expensive and B: hit less reliably. The Deathrains have an advantage in that they can hide behind the fk's and shoot accurate missiles because who cares about cover saves if they have a 2+ one already? Another nice thing you could do is what I suggested, using the deathrains as more of a suicidal role and dropping behind the enemy. This would be nice as a lot of enemies are weaker in the rear (leman russ, artillery, dreadnoughts) also it takes some pressure off the fk's as the enemy might decide the deathrains are an easier target. One could argue that the deathrains used in such a suicidal role are far more effective at anti armor, and even having the twin linked fusion could be used in the same way killing paladins with the JSJ. So I've decided to use both! 2 squads of each and revamp my firewarriors and their fish for their close shooting roles. This is so that after having been pushed back while whittling away at termies, the firewarriors can finish them with sheer volume of fire (29 s5 shots at a total possible distance of 24" which is roughly 2.5 wounds according to mathhammer, which is 7.5 is all the squads join in (though its only 4 wounds if they have feel no pain). I also dropped a piranha and made 2 squads of 4. But yes I can argue that the piranhas would be good at killing the termies as they make an extremely effective tarpit and are somewhat resistant to the str 7 weapons the termies will be toating (even though they get 4 shots each which is rediculous imo, only .5 hits will do any damage if you factor in the cover save (4 x .5 = 2 x .5 = 1 x .5 = .5). Not to mention that a grey knights players doing this will be using up a rediculous amount of points (315 I believe for a 5 man paladin squad and 2 psycannons w/o fnp or any weapons upgrades).

So here once again is my revised list that I'll be testing out on Wednesday (hopefully).

HQ Shas'el = 87
plasma/missile/MT
Bodyguard x2= 164
plasma/missile/TA, HW MT x2

HQ Shas'el = 87
plasma/missile/MT
Bodyguard x2= 164
plasma/missile/TA, HW MT x2

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 151
TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Elite Crisis Team x3 = 151
TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = 100
disruption pod, TA, MT

Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = 100
disruption pod, TA, MT

Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = 100
disruption pod, TA, MT

Fast Attack Piranha x4 = 270
fusion blaster x4, disruption pod x2

Fast Attack Piranha x4 = 270
fusion blaster x4, disruption pod x2

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Heavy Hammerhead = 165
Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

= 2499

I have to thank you guys, I feel my list is very well balanced and will only truly suffer in kp's missions due to the stupid drone rule. I'll try to take pictures for the batrep! Wish me luck and ty for all the support and ideas!

I like what you ended up with, good luck! Let us know how it goes.

I read/skimmed through a lot of this thread and will not touch on XV88s.

I'll just C&C the latest list.

hivefleetmonolith wrote:Elite Crisis Team x3 = TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod
Elite Crisis Team x3 = TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Why not split the firepower and go three pairs instead of two trios? Because if one suit fails a Morale Check, it won't rally without a BK. A survivor of a pair can without a BK.

hivefleetmonolith wrote:Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = disruption pod, TA, MT

If you're going to go with a TA & MT, why not the SMS, too? A full-on Warfish? Just a few FWs here and there or one piranha. And I apologize if I missed it, but did you answer anyone about having too few troop choices for 2500?

hivefleetmonolith wrote:Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, multi-tracker

Consider the Target Lock for BCs to be of use when the RG hits armor?

hivefleetmonolith wrote:I have to thank you guys, I feel my list is very well balanced and will only truly suffer in kp's missions due to the stupid drone rule.

Which the Warfish load-out solves.

It is a long thread and I probably did miss the "I'm not using kroot for this reason" again, sorry. Anyway, given that it is 'Ard Boyz and the kroot have Infiltrate/Outflank ... well, their inclusion in a list for AB would almost seem mandatory because of their strategic value.

I hope you're helluva player, because I tried to make tau work in 5e ... and well ... I like my Chaos Marines!

Brothererekose wrote:I read/skimmed through a lot of this thread and will not touch on XV88s.

I'll just C&C the latest list.

hivefleetmonolith wrote:Elite Crisis Team x3 = TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod
Elite Crisis Team x3 = TL missiles/TL x2, TL fusion/missile pod

Why not split the firepower and go three pairs instead of two trios? Because if one suit fails a Morale Check, it won't rally without a BK. A survivor of a pair can without a BK.

This is actually a really good idea, I ended up revising my revision though and dropping one of the groups of 3 in favor of a stealth marker team.

Brothererekose wrote:

hivefleetmonolith wrote:Troop Firewarrior x12 = 120
Devilfish = disruption pod, TA, MT

If you're going to go with a TA & MT, why not the SMS, too? A full-on Warfish? Just a few FWs here and there or one piranha. And I apologize if I missed it, but did you answer anyone about having too few troop choices for 2500?

well im not much of a supporter of hammer heads, but thats been said plenty of times to you in sure so il just skip over that since you seem to particular about keeping them. What I would say is from what ive found kroot are far superior to FW which is why im curious that you dropped them from your list and switched back to 3 squads of FW, and 3 squads of 12 FW! did you mention something abt your kroot gettin stolen? if so thats truly a sad thing to see happen at a tournament and quite a major loss :(
however as soon as you can i would drop a fw warrior squad and add a kroot sqaud, in fact id add 2 if you can. ive got 2 in my 1850 list. If your afraid of them dying in close combat then at some hounds and theyll turn into a game winning unit for you. Also i personally only equip my Fish wish DP since there are way better guns you could add to your list, such as more crisis suit teams or better yet a pathfinder squad which would work wonders for you list. in fact you could definitely add 2 if you wanted.
Your elites seem pretty solid since you got rid of the gun drones, shield would work much better when equipped to you HQ but youve got plenty of targets so idk how much more useful shield drones would be to you.
Then finally id say you should work on your fast attack list. id say dropp 1 squad of piranhas and split the other into 2 teams of 2. then youd have plenty of points for that pathfinder squad

I read your battle report and it seems like you di pretty well with this list.

Some critique here though,

It seems like you placed your piranhas waaaay closer than you should have, as a result of this, the majority of them were taken out first turn. In leu of placing them aggresively, I would place them right behind your front line in situations when you are playing against a footslogging army like the one you wer playing, what you could've done if your piranhas lived was flat out them BEHIND the paladin squads, with this, he won't be able to claim cover saves from your piranhas AND he has to decide whether to take them out and waste a turn, or continue advancing and take fusion shots in the back

Once footsloggers make it closer to your lines, you can drive the piranhas in FRONT of the unit and evac the closest tau units, giving them a turn to reposition away from the enemy unit.

The only other things that I would suggest is getting some points reserved for 2 or so flechettes in each squadron, with this any assualter will think twice and you force your enemy to shoot you or lose guys hitting it.

Also, don't you see how awesome fireknives are?! Even you cant deny that they preformed their role admirably by taking out the dreaknight and whittling down the paladins.

All in All, I like where this list is going and I hope for you to share more battle reports, the last one showed my some valuable td bits against grey knights

thanks so much mythological. You know, the only reason I put my piranhas so close was that I had no idea about the 30" pregame move. It wasnt my intention to get flamed to death lol. My goal was to surround the right group of paladins and tie them up with drones while I blasted them. Which is actually what happened to an extent but would have been far more effective with the extra 4 piranhas. The suggestion to move them all out in front of the enemy though is something I hadnt thought of, usually I just tarpit them with drones, but this idea intrigues me. I'm not all too sure that flechettes would be so useful, particularly against paladins but against genestealers and the like would be nice.

Fireknives are pwnage, having them all BS4 was a lifesaver, I think I'll stick to them being HQ units though as deathrains would be a better choice for the elites, of which I used none lol. I know a lot of tau players detest firewarriors but I still love their tactical flexibility and they have a role in the game for sure. I did find that giving them the shield drones was a must, they would have died a lot sooner if the drones hadnt eaten a few rending shots, this holds particularly true against longfangs.

I too love how this list is going, so far I havent lost with it! (played tyranids, greyknights and vanilla marines so far!) My goal is to do a battle report every 2 weeks, I would play every week but having a baby makes it hard. Best of luck to you and watch out for them dreadknight teleporters!