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 Kojiro wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Saying women are better at some things and worse at others than men is in no trichological way similar to saying women are inferior.

I'm not sure that's the word you want to use, but I get your meaning. There are quantitative differences between the sexes, I'm certainly not arguing against that. What I'm saying though is that for most tasks in this world some number of women measure up (likewise some men fail).
And don't think for a moment I'm a feminist- I am most certainly not, nor am I trying to assign to women any ability they don't have. I get annoyed when people try to claim that women are all delicate flowers, that they have no right doing X (in this case combat) as if they have no agency or are inherently inferior because they're women. Likewise if they want to expose their chests or dress sexily that's their decision and I would vehemently oppose any call to oppose/censor this.

And I have no trouble with any artist depicting anything that happens in real life.

Trichology, relating to the hair and scalp. I'm fairly sure it was the word I intended.

Looks like it's time to break out my standardized "what female miniatures sell" post;

With regards to the sexy or non-sexy debate, virtually the only statement of any real weight I have seen on the subject is the statement by Bryan Stiltz from Reaper miniatures;

But we have done some tests. Conversions on the same figure, and released under different part numbers and names have shown that an immodest figure will outsell a more modest version of the same exact figure. A topless version will sell a LOT more, and full nudity will sell even more.

Now, obviously this is the results of one company, and testing a very different market (individual figures rather then product lines), but this is, to the best of my knowledge, the only such testing ever publicly reported.

That's not to say that there is no market out there, or that the preferences that exist for single models (presumably bought for painting/display/RPGs) are applicable to building an army. But there is an opportunity coming in the next year as there are going to be 5 fairly large entries into the market of aesthetically distinct female miniatures; Raging Heroes has 3 different lines of female miniatures coming out ranging from tank tops and bare midriffs to head-to-toe uniforms. In addition we can (hopefully) expect relatively soon Dreamforge Games to release their Black Widow female anti-tank troopers in their Eisenkern line and the entry from Victoria miniatures.

A year from now if those lines reach the market we will have some real, new data in this area, since they represent five fairly good points on the continuum of titillation, from near-pinup to virtually de-sexualized.

Well, it's like the old saying goes: "Sex sells".

I believe I read once that the reason for that is that males (And maybe females but to a lesser extend) are aroused by even the slightest hint of a mate.

So, we are biologically hardwired to be drawn towards sexualized things. Damn you, mother nature!

 Las wrote:
What year is it?

I'm quite surprised to discover how people around here are progressive. I mean, both paulson games, xruslanx, and azreal13 seems to be advocating polygyny. So, I guess I can answer your question : we seem to be around 630 AD.
Though given their description, it sometimes feel more akin to lebensborn, with that whole “Let's spit out as many babies as possible in as little time as possible”. They merely lack the eugenics for now. So maybe the right answer was actually 1942 AD !
I sincerely hope nobody gets offended by this post .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:
I certainly don't want to be playinga game where the objective is to shoot and kill as many women as possible. There's a disassociation that occurs when the models are faceless male goons, and the violence is marginalized, maybe it's not right but it's there.

So you can disassociate with faceless male goons, but not with faceless female goons ? That's a pity. Too bad for you, but that certainly won't stop me from playing my army of faceless female goons.

 paulson games wrote:
You change the percieved theme to "hey lets shoot women" and you'll likely never see a female gamer in your store again.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure no female gamer could handle the shock of seeing faceless female goons trying to reduce to bloody ribbons other faceless female goons.

 paulson games wrote:
(and that's not even including how often male teenagers love to toss around rape jokes)

And rather than addressing this issue, let's just sweep it under the carpet. It's a saner, safer, and more sensitive thing to do.
I mean, seeing female faceless goon getting killed it sure to put off women, but having teenager joking about how they will rape them is sure to make female gamers feel so comfortable, right ?

 paulson games wrote:
I know a lot of people always bring up the subject of female guard units which is a situation that I'd find uncomfortable.

You have an image of an all female unit from a deathworld or wherever, if they refuse to fight they are mowed down by their own officers. Furthermore they'd likely be facing an all male marine force or other male force. That could send a lot of mixed signals about the precieved value of women in the game. While the guard player might think it's great, other people viewing the game with a more traditional approach to the role women in combat might not think it's very funny or appealing.

That their value is same as the value of men?

The WWII soviet style tactics of throwing a wall bodies against the enemy is already horrific and dehumanizing, translate that into walls of disposable dead women..... it's not a good picture.

Well no. And men being similarly killed isn't any better.

You think you're being chivalric, but you're just being sexist. You're casting women as damsels that need protecting.


Many people in this thread should just stop thinking humanity as males and females; for most of the time such division is immaterial; they're all just people with different individual characteristics.

 Crimson wrote:
Many people in this thread should just stop thinking humanity as males and females; for most of the time such division is immaterial; they're all just people with different individual characteristics.

I'm thinking more about who I'd want hauling me fifty yards to somewhere safe in order to start up Combat Lifesaver.

I know what my pick is.

So, I'm honestly curious. Does anyone think anything of substance has been achieved with this thread? Or are we just circling the drain like the leftovers of a bad salad from three weeks ago, discovered in the back of the fridge growing six kinds of mould and emitting a horrifying smell of rancid olive oil?

I know what my pick is. I don't think we, as a community, have the rhetorical skill or empirical data to actually argue gender politics the way a lot of people here seem hellbent on doing.

Infinity's mentioned a lot in threads like this. I think it's an interesting range because sometimes it gets it right:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2013/miniatures/9th-wulver-grenadiers-reg/

and sometimes it gets it hilariously wrong:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/caledonian-volunteers-2/

That's comparing 2 units from the same faction. The female minis in the first pic are obviously female, but they're dressed the same as the male members of the unit. The second pic however shows the all to common problem of the 'sexy' girl model completely out of context. Why is her 'kilt' a mini-skirt? Why is she in that coquettish pose? Why isn't she dressed the same as her male counterparts from the same unit.

pgmason wrote:
Infinity's mentioned a lot in threads like this. I think it's an interesting range because sometimes it gets it right:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2013/miniatures/9th-wulver-grenadiers-reg/

and sometimes it gets it hilariously wrong:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/caledonian-volunteers-2/

That's comparing 2 units from the same faction. The female minis in the first pic are obviously female, but they're dressed the same as the male members of the unit. The second pic however shows the all to common problem of the 'sexy' girl model completely out of context. Why is her 'kilt' a mini-skirt? Why is she in that coquettish pose? Why isn't she dressed the same as her male counterparts from the same unit.

That's been answered. The more cheesecake, the better the sales.

 Seaward wrote:

pgmason wrote:
Infinity's mentioned a lot in threads like this. I think it's an interesting range because sometimes it gets it right:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2013/miniatures/9th-wulver-grenadiers-reg/

and sometimes it gets it hilariously wrong:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/caledonian-volunteers-2/

That's comparing 2 units from the same faction. The female minis in the first pic are obviously female, but they're dressed the same as the male members of the unit. The second pic however shows the all to common problem of the 'sexy' girl model completely out of context. Why is her 'kilt' a mini-skirt? Why is she in that coquettish pose? Why isn't she dressed the same as her male counterparts from the same unit.

That's been answered. The more cheesecake, the better the sales.

Still, people in this very thread has cited Infinity as having a less sexist range of minis than that of 40K.

Less =\= not at all.

There might be less examples (I doubt it though), but those that are are worse. I've yet to see short skirts and thongs in 40K, where there are more sensibly dressed male counterparts.

 fishy bob wrote:
There might be less examples (I doubt it though), but those that are are worse. I've yet to see short skirts and thongs in 40K, where there are more sensibly dressed male counterparts.

That's a personal line in the sand for yourself though (albeit probably a relatively common one to a lot of people)

Remember this whole thread started because of a picture of a woman showing a limited amount of cleavage. One could also argue because there is some element of Manga/Animé in Infinity DNA, it is at least more appropriate in the context. I'm not sure I'd argue that too vociferously myself, but I could see a case being made.

 fishy bob wrote:
There might be less examples (I doubt it though), but those that are are worse. I've yet to see short skirts and thongs in 40K, where there are more sensibly dressed male counterparts.

That's because GW's primary target audience is 13 years old.

I hate it when people bring out the profit argument to justify things. "Businesses have to make money, people!" There is such a thing a externalizes. When the seller and the buyer both make out for the better, but somebody else's back yard gets turned into a toxic waste dump.

So the miniature companies make money selling cheesecake. The nerds get their sexy models. And we exclude a possible demographic from the hobby due to an noninclusive culture. Yay Profit! The invisible hand; the cause of and solution to all of our problems!

No one here is arguing for an end to sexy models. We just want more parity in representation. More female characters. More normal looking female sculpts. If one or two of the guard models on an IG sprue where female, it probably wouldn't hurt or help their sales much. But it would be a change in the culture that may mean a few years down the line, the hobby becomes more open and inviting to female gamers.

pgmason wrote:
Infinity's mentioned a lot in threads like this. I think it's an interesting range because sometimes it gets it right:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2013/miniatures/9th-wulver-grenadiers-reg/

and sometimes it gets it hilariously wrong:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/caledonian-volunteers-2/

That's comparing 2 units from the same faction. The female minis in the first pic are obviously female, but they're dressed the same as the male members of the unit. The second pic however shows the all to common problem of the 'sexy' girl model completely out of context. Why is her 'kilt' a mini-skirt? Why is she in that coquettish pose? Why isn't she dressed the same as her male counterparts from the same unit.

I like them, so I'm getting some*. In fact there's a lot of cool Infinity models.

*They certainly aren't any worse than any females that've come from GW, and it kinda fits in with the theme anyway; the outfit isn't impractical, and girls have always worn shorter tartan skirts than guys have kilts. Their outfit provides them no less protection than their male counterparts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
So the miniature companies make money selling cheesecake. The nerds get their sexy models. And we exclude a possible demographic from the hobby due to an noninclusive culture. Yay Profit! The invisible hand; the cause of and solution to all of our problems!

What demographic do we exclude? Because I see a few female gamers and none of them have ever expressed any issue with the scantily clad female mini's, most of which are owned by said gaming girls.

Herzlos wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
So the miniature companies make money selling cheesecake. The nerds get their sexy models. And we exclude a possible demographic from the hobby due to an noninclusive culture. Yay Profit! The invisible hand; the cause of and solution to all of our problems!

What demographic do we exclude? Because I see a few female gamers and none of them have ever expressed any issue with the scantily clad female mini's, most of which are owned by said gaming girls.

I'll counter your anecdote with my anecdote. The recent Zombicide expansions has included some pretty ridiculous cheesecake miniatures. I know a few life long gamer girls who are big fans of the game and they are universally displeased with the sculpts. Those characters never get played. Even the guys are bit embarrassed by them. Certain things don't work so well in mixed company.

People who are a female and already a gamer either are OK with it, or built up a tolerance because they like the games enough to look past the issues. It's a self selected grouping.

I'm not convinced that there isn't room to grow that demographic. And that growth isn't stifled by the very male-centric culture of the hobby.

There's definitely room to grow the demographic, though I'm not sure it's the male-centric imagery, as that doesn't seem to impact other hobbies either (like anime, there's a lot of girls at the cons I've been to that aren't put off by the male centric artwork).

Of course, this is all guesswork since none of us are potential girl gamers, but the anecdotal evidence points towards them being more interested in co-operative games and competitive games, and the smuttiness of the mini's is a secondary concern. We'll see what happens with Kingdom Death :p

Herzlos wrote:
There's definitely room to grow the demographic, though I'm not sure it's the male-centric imagery, as that doesn't seem to impact other hobbies either (like anime, there's a lot of girls at the cons I've been to that aren't put off by the male centric artwork).

Of course, this is all guesswork since none of us are potential girl gamers, but the anecdotal evidence points towards them being more interested in co-operative games and competitive games, and the smuttiness of the mini's is a secondary concern. We'll see what happens with Kingdom Death :p

Anime has its baggage too, but Anime has a much broader range of options going on. Not every anime is an action show filled with Conan expys. There are plenty of shows and characters that have universal appeal or just appeal to women. There are Anime shows that aren't just fan-service(for the males) and violence.

pgmason wrote:

and sometimes it gets it hilariously wrong:

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/caledonian-volunteers-2/

That's comparing 2 units from the same faction. The female minis in the first pic are obviously female, but they're dressed the same as the male members of the unit. The second pic however shows the all to common problem of the 'sexy' girl model completely out of context. Why is her 'kilt' a mini-skirt? Why is she in that coquettish pose? Why isn't she dressed the same as her male counterparts from the same unit.

to be fair, the only offensive thing about that model is the fact that she's wearing something under her wee tartan dress in the first place.

A True Scotsman doesnt wear anything under their kilt. (yes, this is true. and i say this as a kiltowner/wearer). And believe me, its the same with the scottish lasses and their wee tartan skirts. (especially if they're from glasgow! ) there is such a thing as doing it properly.

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I'm not convinced that there isn't room to grow that demographic. And that growth isn't stifled by the very male-centric culture of the hobby.

Purely out of curiosity, do you believe that all hobbies have an obligation to avoid being male-centric? What about female-centric? I can think of some things women of my close personal acquaintance do that I would have absolutely zero interest in, regardless of how much flannel and beard you dressed it up in.

 Seaward wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I'm not convinced that there isn't room to grow that demographic. And that growth isn't stifled by the very male-centric culture of the hobby.

Purely out of curiosity, do you believe that all hobbies have an obligation to avoid being male-centric? What about female-centric? I can think of some women of my close personal acquaintance do that I would have absolutely zero interest in, regardless of how much flannel and beard you dressed it up in.

I made a similar point a few pages ago, but apparently a man shouldn't feel awkward or excluded by being in an aerobics class full of women.

So I know the discussion has gone in loops and all but just gonna state my own opinion. Personally, I don't really see anything all that wrong with the image. Is it impractical? Yes but I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing. My biggest gripe is I can't tell WHAT she is doing. IS she trying to go into battle with so many weak points? Is it a political place and things went wrong? What exactly is going on there? Now if she is marching into warfare... it's 40k but I admit I raise my brow ever so slightly. If a more peaceful meeting... dunno why she has a chainsword but I guess it might be customary there.

Now, onto the whole entire argument of women models. Honestly, I say the more the merrier. Who cares if realistically women are more important to the repopulation of mankind? 40k has never been realistic wwith statistics that would not be plausable and an infinite number of planets being lost and just magically others appearing to replace them. It is a world where vats grow children and Cadia has the entire population trained for combat. The peak of human expertise has an entire segment (SoB) that are strictly women that can wreck most other humans. We have genetic altering drugs that certain IG regiments use to make them stronger. Any pretense that they are needed for this or that in every circumstance are inherently flawed with the bs fluff that we have grown to enjoy xD. So I say I'd love to have female guardsman. Heck I'd love their to be teen guardsman (the youth). It doesn't matter how strong you are. In the future such differences might have long faded away and even if not it means nothing when 90% of the enemies you face can rip you apart in an instant whilst the others have guns that far out match you.

In the end, I suppose that I see no difference between a man and woman being slaughtered in war. Both are human beings. Does one being a female make it inherently worse than killing a man whom has just as much feeling and emotion?

In other words, the artwork is odd but fine, I'd like to see some badass inquisitor girls, I'd like to see more female in 40k, I dont mind a coupble being fan service as long as some others are badass aaaand that's really it.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I'm not convinced that there isn't room to grow that demographic. And that growth isn't stifled by the very male-centric culture of the hobby.

Purely out of curiosity, do you believe that all hobbies have an obligation to avoid being male-centric? What about female-centric? I can think of some women of my close personal acquaintance do that I would have absolutely zero interest in, regardless of how much flannel and beard you dressed it up in.

I made a similar point a few pages ago, but apparently a man shouldn't feel awkward or excluded by being in an aerobics class full of women.

It's not a good argument, lack of interest or awquardness doesn't mean the hobby is exclusive for one gender. It's realy the same argument that was gaming is for boys and girls have no interest.
What about board games or art ?
Or even TCG all things girls are getting into. Aerobics has men into it, fashion has men into it.
Why would you be awquard in a aerobics class full of women ? Women put up with it in many Hobby they enjoy.

 Seaward wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Many people in this thread should just stop thinking humanity as males and females; for most of the time such division is immaterial; they're all just people with different individual characteristics.

I'm thinking more about who I'd want hauling me fifty yards to somewhere safe in order to start up Combat Lifesaver.

I know what my pick is.

A person strong enough to do this, regardless of the gender?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
So, I'm honestly curious. Does anyone think anything of substance has been achieved with this thread? Or are we just circling the drain like the leftovers of a bad salad from three weeks ago, discovered in the back of the fridge growing six kinds of mould and emitting a horrifying smell of rancid olive oil?

I know what my pick is. I don't think we, as a community, have the rhetorical skill or empirical data to actually argue gender politics the way a lot of people here seem hellbent on doing.

Nothing ever changes from these sorts of things, other than occiasional financial losses when a company decides to try to appease the gnashing and wailing of teeth. For as long as I can remember, this topic has come up (used to be in the letters column of Dragon Magazine and occaisional noise at conventions). Those who seek sensible looking femailes though never want to put forth the capital to fix their percieved problems (something that with KS now, they would be able to do much more readily).

The rest of the discussion (equality and all that) is largely irrelevant to miniatures and artwork. A miniature doesnt have to pass a fitness eval...it just is.

I don't know what's worst : that I had a brain malfunction, or that nobody noticed it. I guess nobody reads my messages at all.
I had my lengthy argument totally ignored, though of course should I ever give away some redundant point of redundancy, azreal13 will call me on how I should rather repeat them, so he can ignore them once again.
I'm really wasting my time here.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
So, I'm honestly curious. Does anyone think anything of substance has been achieved with this thread? Or are we just circling the drain like the leftovers of a bad salad from three weeks ago, discovered in the back of the fridge growing six kinds of mould and emitting a horrifying smell of rancid olive oil?

I know what my pick is. I don't think we, as a community, have the rhetorical skill or empirical data to actually argue gender politics the way a lot of people here seem hellbent on doing.

Nothing ever changes from these sorts of things, other than occiasional financial losses when a company decides to try to appease the gnashing and wailing of teeth. For as long as I can remember, this topic has come up (used to be in the letters column of Dragon Magazine and occaisional noise at conventions). Those who seek sensible looking femailes though never want to put forth the capital to fix their percieved problems (something that with KS now, they would be able to do much more readily).

The rest of the discussion (equality and all that) is largely irrelevant to miniatures and artwork. A miniature doesnt have to pass a fitness eval...it just is.

As I pointed out above, this may be the single best time in the history of the hobby to launch new lines/produce new aesthetics. Latest word from Dreamforge is shipping late April/May for Black Widows. Raging Heroes is... well, sometime. Victoria Miniatures as well.

Seriously, if there is an interest it can come to fruition: there is a guy on Dakka making sci-fi Gnolls for crying out loud! And they actually look good!

There are professional and semi-professional casters that post to Dakka. Sculptors of many disciplines. People who have run kickstarters and people who have analyzed them ad nauseum. There is a wealth of expertise here, if the desire is to put out a desired product.

Ahhh... but there is the rub, isn't it? Just a few posts above this we have one fellow referring to the selling of the miniatures in question as analogous to creating "a toxic waste dump." Ah, but the refrain goes; "No one here is arguing for an end to sexy models"... the desire is only for "more parity in representation".

In other times, this is where the phrase "Put your money where your mouth is" would go. But this is such a golden age one doesn't even have to do that! The minimum standards to launch a kickstarter campaign are trivially low, and even a few tens of thousands of dollars can launch a business. JunkRobot and Bombshell miniatures have done exactly this: seen a gap in the market where their vision of female miniatures could prosper, and exploited it.

So let's see: if the desire is not simply to complain, then we can look forward to some new style female miniatures. But since this is far from the first time this post (in one form or another) has been written, certain doubts exist.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't know what's worst : that I had a brain malfunction, or that nobody noticed it. I guess nobody reads my messages at all.
I had my lengthy argument totally ignored, though of course should I ever give away some redundant point of redundancy, azreal13 will call me on how I should rather repeat them, so he can ignore them once again.
I'm really wasting my time here.

Took you 14 pages to figure that one out huh?

Fact is what we have is a situation somewhat akin to that mentioned in the context of religion ie "for the skeptic, no proof is ever sufficient, for the faithful, no proof is necessary." There is nothing that can be said by either side which will result in the other throwing up their hands and saying "you know what, you were right all along!"

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I'm really wasting my time here.

This.