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2012/05/02 04:35:57
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves (Completed)
For those of you not familiar with the concept of Maximum Threat Overload, basically it is my strategy of overloading my opponent with more threats than he can handle, all at the same time. Necrons actually excel at this due to some very fast and dangerous units that they have in their codex. In the list that I've designed, I've got 7 extremely fast and dangerous units that will be hitting my opponents lines all but Turn 2 in most cases - 2 wraiths, 2 command barges, 2 doom scythes and 1 scarabs. Then for my support units, I have a cryptek with Solar Pulse to protect my army in the case my opponent goes first, 4 minimum troop choices for objectives and a unit of spyders to keep producing scarabs as well as for counter-assault purposes and psychic defense.
Recently, I had a little debate with a certain blogger with regards to necron tactics. He doesn't believe that "close-combat" crons are a viable build and that wraiths were crap. By the ways, this person plays and advocates pure shooty MSU. So I thought it would be fun to pit my "close-combat" MTO crons against one of his MSU armies. Now I don't know whether this is his army or not, but I pulled it from his website because I thought it was good example of a competitive MSU army.
I did make some slight modifications to the original Necron MTO list. I felt that it could use a little more shooting to make it slightly more balanced (it is still, however, a very unbalanced list). Thus, I've de-emphasized my uber Overlords in order to get a few more lance-teks into my list.
Now this battle won't really prove anything. I don't think my crons will ever get the recognition they deserves until they can win a few tournaments, and that is something that I won't be able to do any time soon (because I don't really have the time to go to tournaments unless they're local). But what I hope to show is that I think it will make for a competitive and tough fight for any other army out there, including shooty MSU.
Basically, the BAO missions include all three missions at once - Annihilation, Capture and Control & Seize Ground. Whoever wins the most missions wins the game.
Deployment: Pitched Battle
Initiative: Space Wolves
Map of the terrain.
2 seize ground and 1 capture and control (turtle) objectives on this side of the board.
And the other 2 seize ground and 1 C&C objective on the other side of the board.
The SW list is funny, because Melta's are only so effective, and even less so when your Doom Scythes get killed by those Missile Launchers. Assuming they do, of course. I've never had a Doom Scythe or Night Scythe live past turn 2.
2012/05/02 08:41:05
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
5000+ pts. Eldar 2500pts "The only thing that match's the Eldar's firepower, is their arrogance".
8th General at Alamo GT 2011.
Tied 2nd General Alamo GT 2012
Top General Lower Bracket Railhead 2011
Top General Railhead 2012
# of Local Tournaments Won: 4
28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.
2012/05/02 11:12:58
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
It will be a very tough fight for the Necrons, but the Doom Scythes can do some truly silly things against all those transports if the angles work out correctly.
How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
-- Fifty-Four -- Eight to argue, one to get a continuance, one to object, one to demur, two to research precedents, one to dictate a letter, one to stipulate, five to turn in their time cards, one to depose, one to write interrogatories, two to settle, one to order a secretary to change the bulb, and twenty eight to bill for professional services.
2012/05/02 15:38:34
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Interesting terrain. Ideally the bunker side would be better for the long fangs however I notice only one objective on that side. Also no cover in the center of the map which leaves a lot to be desired for necrons. So I think Jy2 wins KP due to the large kp difference, draw for command control even though Jy2 has the mobility with his units to last round contest ,and draw on objectives for last second contest due to necron mobility(scarabs,wraiths have phasing, fast barges) and going second so i am voting necrons win this by Kp.
Sisters 1500
2012/05/02 15:42:08
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
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2012/05/02 16:57:11
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
MSU: First of all, what is MSU? MSU, or multiple-small units, is a way of building one's army competitively that usually involves minimizing the sizes of units and maximizing the number of those units to maximize firepower (offense) while creating target saturation. This type of min/maxing list philosophy usually includes the following characteristics:
- Multiple minimum-sized units. For example, instead of taking full 10-man squads in rhinos, MSU lists will usually take 5-man units in razorbacks (or whatever transports they come with).
- Spamming units. MSU lists will take multiples of these min-sized squads. Instead of 3 10-man squds, they will take 6 5-man squads with transports. MSU lists usually fill up the FOC slots.
- Maximum fierpower. The reason to take min-sized suqads is to maximize firepower. Bascially for MSU-mech, you take the minimum sized squads necessary to acquire the heavy or special weapons. Once you acquire that heavy/special weapon, you move on to the next unit. Why take 10-man squads when a 5-man unit is all you need to take that razorback with heavy weapon?
- Target Saturation. Now this is perhaps one of the most important goals of MSU design. The goal of MSU builds is to create as many threats/targets as possible. Each unit should be about equal in threat in a pure MSU list. That is what makes target prioritization difficult for the opponent. No single unit is ever truly more dangerous than another. That is why pure MSU has no deathstar or uber units. That is because they 1) reduce/dilute the firepower in the army and 2) make target prioritization easy for the opponent.
- Redundancy. MSU lists emphasize redundancy so that losing any particular unit will minimize the effect on the overall output of hte army. Wipe out 1 unit of grey hunters? There's 5 more where that came from. Kill my unit of long fangs and I still have 2 more units to destroy your tanks with. Even thought the individual units are not so resilient, the army on the whole is actually very resilient due to its redundancy.
- How to deal with enemy deathstars? MSU mech deals with enemy assault units differently form most conventional lists. From a glance, their 5-man units appear to be quite fragile and easily overcome by any unit with even an ounce of assault. How do you handle these units? By screening and sacrificing. Use transports/vehicles to block off dangerous units. Sacrifice a 5-man squad in assault if you have to. The name of the game is to delay the enemy so that you can shoot them some more. Make them go through a sacrificial unit - whether infantry or transport - and you've just bought yourself another turn of shooting.
- Kill Point heavy. Shooty MSU lists are usually high in firepower. However, they also tend to be high in kill points as well. That is just an inherent flaw of MSU lists and the philosophy of target saturation. However, the firepower that these lists normally possess is in many cases enought to torrent most opponents off the board, annihilation or otherwise.
Thus, while MSU lists may look weak with only 5-man units and no scary uber units, in practice they are actually qutie strong. Many believe that properly built MSU armies are some of the most competitive armies in the game currently. I myself incorporate elements of MSU design philosophy in my lists, with 5-man warrior units and multiple fast and dangerous units for target saturation in my MTO necrons.
Necrons: I've had decent success against MSU mech-spam with my MTO necrons. However, my experience with them is quite limited as I've only played a handful of games with them. I feel that my army has the tools to deal with mech. Now the only question is, do I have the resiliency to absorb all those S8/9 shooting? His startegy should be to block off my wraiths with his tranports and then counter-attack them with shooting and perhaps even assault after I've destroyed his vehicles.
In the Bay Area Open (BAO) missions, I think I will have the advantage in Kill Points as he has a lot more KP's than my necrons and his KP's are relatively easier to get. However, he will probably have the advantage in the objectives-based missions with more scoring units and up to 15 vehicles that can be used to contest objectives with.
I think for my necrons to pull off the victory, I need to keep the pressure on and contain him in his own deployment zone. If I can keep him occupied there with my threats, then I will have the advantage. That is, of course, assuming that I can survive his shooting. Also, a key to how well I do may depend on how well my doom scythes do. If they can get at least 1 good turn of shooting through, then this may actually be an easy game for my crons. If not, then it may be an uphill battle for me.
He's definitely got enough to deal with most of my threats. What he may have problems with is dealing with my scarabs. His target prioritization should be the doom scythes and command barges first. After that, then the wraiths. He also needs to be wary of my mini-scarab farm. If he lets it get too big, I can do some serious damage to his transports as well as overwhelm his 5-man units. Or I can use them to tarpit/kill his long fangs.
Night-fight will be a nuisance but not as much as you would think. Free searchlights and the fact that I will be coming towards him will help mitigate it somewhat. Basically, the only real protection it offers is to my warriors. He should have no problems seeing my faster, offensive units.
The key to surviving my onslaught is for the wolves to spread out. He also needs to go after my objectives early and force me to divert some of my resources to deal with those "threats". But all that is moot if he can simply torrent me off the table.
Basically, the BAO missions include all three missions at once - Annihilation, Capture and Control & Seize Ground. Whoever wins the most missions wins the game.
2 seize ground and 1 capture and control (turtle) objectives on this side of the board.
And the other 2 seize ground and 1 C&C objective on the other side of the board.
SW deployment. All the razorbacks have lascannons and tl-plasmas. The 3 center rhinos (2 black and 1 grey) have 3 wolf guards with 2 combi-meltas in them.
Another perspective of the SW deployment. No reserves.
Necron deployment. Vendettas are used as doom scythes. Half of my wraiths are using tyranid proxies.
Another perspective of my deployment. No reserves for necrons either.
I take a gamble here. I don't think my doom scythe has a very good target so I just move it up slightly. I'm hoping that night-fight will protect it and next turn, I should have some juicier targets.
The rest of my army advances.
On my right, both my command barge and doom scythe move flat-out. Again, I am taking a gamble here with my doom scythe, hoping for a bigger payoff next turn. I'm pretty sure that my opponent should be able to spotlight it, but between cover and my command barge being so close to his lines, I'm hoping it will survive his volley.
What can I say....I'm a gambling man.
Shooting by my lance-teks, of which 2 is without cover, manages to pen both wolf guard rhinos. Unfortunately, I roll 2 's on the damage charts to only shake each rhino.
My units then run.
Now let's see how "resilient" my necrons are with the help of night-fight.
Space Wolves 1
Spoiler:
His far-right rhino only moves 6" so that he can use his searchlight. Speeders move 12" each.
His front rhinos (and the shaken rhinos) move about 12" and pop smoke. They are trying to make a screen to block out my wraiths. The rhino between the 2 black rhinos only move 6" in order to use its searchlight. Razors move at combat speed.
Finally, on his left, his rhino moves 12" and drop off his melta-hunters. Speeder moves 12" as well. We make a mistake here. His rhino successfully spotlights my doom scythe even though he went 12"....
....and the result is devastating. Speeder fires its multi-melta and pops my doom scythe. Melta-hunters then fire at my command barge and glances it. He immobilizes the command barge, which I transfer to 1 Wound on my Overlord instead.
Yes, I am aware of the controversy with regards to getting immobilized while moving flat-out, but we interpreted and played it as the transfer of the wound takes precedence over getting wrecked. For those who don't agree, consider it a "houserule" in our game.
SW: 1, Necrons: 0
What's worse, however, is that his other rhino rolls for his night-fight check against my other doom scythe. The speeders and a couple of razorbacks then shoot it down as well.
The melta-hunters inside his rhino then fires at my command barge and explode it as well! Ouch!!!
SW: 3, Necrons: 0
On the bright side, his rhino spotlights my center wraiths and then he fires his entire army at them - 3 long fangs and the remaining razors. He doesn't kill a single wraith as I pass all my saves.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Man, that turn hurts. 3 of my heavy hitters gone, just like that. It could have actually been much worse had my saves for my wraiths been slightly more average. I took a gamble and this time, it came back to really hurt me. Now I've got to salvage what I can to keep this game from becoming a blow-out. At least I've got my wraiths at full strength still.
Overlord goes after the rhino.
Wraiths jump over the LOS-blocking hill and prepare for a multi-assault. The black rhino moved at cruising while the metallic one only moved 6" last turn.
The other unit of wraiths prepare for a multi-charge as well. Both of those rhinos moved at cruising speed last turn.
Command barge flies over his speeder. I pen it once and then roll a to shake it only. Overlord disembarks and get ready to put the hurt on his hunters.
Spyders and scarabs advance. 1 spyder took 1 Wound from spawning.
In my Shooting phase, 1 of the lance-teks wrecks his Rune Priest's ride despite cover from smoke. That is all my shooting does.
SW: 3, Necrons: 1
The right Overlord assaults the rhino....
....and wrecks it.
SW: 3, Necrons: 2
Left Overlord assault into the grey hunters. Mindshackle scarabs kill 1 grey hunter.
My Overlord then kills another 2 hunters. I win combat by 3 but they pass morale.
Left wraiths multi-assault both rhinos.
Needing 6's to hit, I explode 1 rhino and weapon destroy and immobilize the other one. Fortunately for me, the grey hunters get pinned in the explosion, though none dies. (BTW, I used flamer models but that unit actually had meltas instead.) My wraiths take 1W from the explosion.
SW: 3, Necrons: 3
Finally, wraiths and scarabs both multi-assault several units. Wraiths hit 2 rhinos. Scarabs hit his HQ unit and the black rhino.
Scarabs fail to kill any wolf guards or to even hurt the black rhino. Wraiths stun, immobilize and weapon destroy the metallic rhino which moved at combat speed last turn but also fails to hurt the black rhino. Finally, Rune Priest with wolf guards kill off 4 scarab bases after combat and No Retreat saves. My gloom prism fails to block off his force weapon.
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
Time for some space wolf retaliation. I pop off my second Solar Pulse to make it Night-fight again.
Melta-hunters and both land speeders go after my right Overlord.
Black rhino moves out of the way of my wraiths. 3 units of space wolves (melta unit, flamer unit and 1 unit of wolf guards) disembark and get ready to dish out some pain.
On the left, razorback advances 12" and his 2nd unit of flamer hunters disembark. Melta-hunters also disembark from their immobilized rhino.
This turn is the make-it-or-break-it turn for my necrons. Space wolves are about to focus almost the entirety of their army onto my 2 units of wraiths. If they succeed, it's going to be a quick game for my crons.
Finally, empty rhino and speeder move at cruising speed. They are setting themselves up to contest my Seize Ground objective. Speeder fires at my command barge without cover. Fortunately for me, it fails to hit.
Melta-hunters and speeders fire at my Overlord. Fortunately for me, my HQ is slightly obscured by the wreck and makes 2 out of 4 cover saves (as well as his armour saves). He lives with just 1W left.
Space wolves now focus 1 razorback (didn't move to fire all weapons), 2 melta units, 1 flamer unit and 1 unit of long fangs on my right wraiths. They kill 2 and put 1W on a 3rd wraith.
On the left, 2 razorbacks (didn't move in order to fire all guns), the melta-hunters, flamer-hunters and 2 units of long fangs fire at my left wraiths. They kill 3 and put 1W on a 4th.
Wolves then combo-charge my right wraiths with 2 units of grey hunters.
Fortunately for the necrons, my wraiths win combat 3 to 2. Both units of grey hunters pass their morale.
On the left, only the melta unit is able to make the charge against my wraiths. The flamer unit is about 1" out of assault range.
We tie combat with 1 Wound apiece.
My wraiths survive! I have a slim chance....
Doh!!! Hunters only cause 2W to my Overlord with the 2+ save. I then roll for my saves.
He then fails to get back up.
SW: 4, Necrons: 3
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Another spyder takes 1W while spawning scarabs. Here comes the reinforcement.
Command barge moves flat-out.
I get a clear view of his skimmers with my lance-teks. Each lance-tek gets 1-shot, 1-kill. The explosions take out 1grey hunter and 1 wolf guard.
SW: 4, Necrons: 5
Wolf guards then fail morale (I believe on an 11) and fall back.
Overlord and spyders then charge the unit of grey hunters. Spyders also multi-assault the rhino (which moved 6" last turn).
Together, they wipe out all but 2 of the hunters and explode the rhino. Hunters then break and fall back. Spyders consolidate towards the immobilized rhino to get cover from his long fangs.
SW: 4, Necrons: 6
In the right wraith combat, we tie combat with 2W apiece.
Scarabs finally kill his Rune Priest along with a wolf guard. They win combat 3 to 2. Wolf guards pass morale.
SW: 4, Necrons: 7
Finally, my left wraiths kill 2 hunters, who also happen to pass morale as well.
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
Wolf guards run off the board but the hunters only fall back 2" to remain on the board still. Neither could regroup because there was an enemy unit within 6" of both units.
SW: 4, Necrons: 8
Flamer unit gets back into the razorback. Their plan is to go contest my objective and to kill some warriors. Unfortunately for my opponent, his razor immobilizes itself on terrain. The unit of hunters who were pinned last turn goes to help out their comrades.
Speeder and rhino moves back a little to get cover from my lance-tek. It is not quite time to contest yet. Speeder fires at my command barge but I make my cover.
Because 1 razor failed, he has to send another razor 12" towards my deployment zone, popping smoke in the process.
1 razorback finally shoots down my Overlord with a lascannon and 2 twin-linked plasma shots. He would not get back up.
SW: 5, Necrons: 8
All 3 units of long fangs fire at my spyders and put several wounds on them, but they survive thanks to cover.
Finally, his rhino actually repairs itself.
I am slowly killing off his hunters on the right.
His friends join into the left wraith combat.
Amazingly, after 24 space wolf attacks, he fails to cause a single unsaved wound! Wraiths kill 1 hunter and actually win combat! That was a pleasant surprise. I was expecting to lose both of my wraiths in that exchange.
Finally, scarabs finish off his wolf guards and consolidate out of the wreck.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/05/02 17:41:05
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
McNinja wrote:The SW list is funny, because Melta's are only so effective, and even less so when your Doom Scythes get killed by those Missile Launchers. Assuming they do, of course. I've never had a Doom Scythe or Night Scythe live past turn 2.
Meltas are quite effective here and can kill anything in my army if they can get within range. Without phase shifters, my Overlords are vulnerable to them, as are the spyders. They are a threat to doubling-out both wraiths and scarabs.
But regarding my scythes, you're quite right. Usually my doom scythes, with the exception of 1 game, do not live long enough to fire off its death ray more than once.
Zid wrote:Odd sw list lol, look forward to it
It's definitely a lot different than your conventional lists.
Smitty0305 wrote:I think SW will wreck house pretty easily
I think it could go either ways. My crons are quite resilient, though that may be matched by the firepower of the wolves. I think it will come down to 2 things - 1) how well my doom scythes do before they croak and 2) how well I do on my saves for the wraiths.
If both goes my way, then I think my necrons can "wreck house". If only 1 goes my way, then it will be a tough fight for my crons. If neither goes my way, then it'll probably be an easy game for the wolves.
G. Whitenbeard wrote:It will be a very tough fight for the Necrons, but the Doom Scythes can do some truly silly things against all those transports if the angles work out correctly.
Agreed.
whitespirit wrote:Interesting terrain. Ideally the bunker side would be better for the long fangs however I notice only one objective on that side. Also no cover in the center of the map which leaves a lot to be desired for necrons. So I think Jy2 wins KP due to the large kp difference, draw for command control even though Jy2 has the mobility with his units to last round contest ,and draw on objectives for last second contest due to necron mobility(scarabs,wraiths have phasing, fast barges) and going second so i am voting necrons win this by Kp.
In this case, bunkers wouldn't really matter much to the wolves because my crons don't have much shooting. Also, there is actually quite a lot of cover, including a large LOS-blocking hill on 1 side and a large terrain piece on the other side....not that my crons really care about cover (I make my own cover).
I agree with the necrons taking KP and C&C being a draw. However, I am not so sure about Seize Ground. Wolves have just too many transports that they can use to try to contest. That is honestly a toss-up IMO.
pretre wrote:Yay! jy2 BR. Looking forward to it.
Finally, right? It's been a while since I've played a competitive game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote:Comparing the lists, I'd go with the Necrons.
However, on account of the terrain and game type/deployment, I've had to go with the Space Wolves.
Should be a great game either way though.
Yeah, I think it'll be a great game also. Either that or a blow-out by the space wolves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 17:44:07
Necrons stealing is huge. I was going to say SW, but after that dice roll I have changed my mind. Turn 1 I feel will allow you to push hard and provide a lot of threat saturation, followed up by a Turn 2 slaughter.
I am foreseeing the game being in the bag for 1 side by turn 3 since the Necron list is so aggressive. Necrons are either going to win big or come close to being tabled, though my money is on a Necron win.
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2012/05/03 01:07:34
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Those razorbacks and rhinos are going to have a hard time dealing with STR 10 AP 1 Shots and the CCBs, Taking the right angles, night fighting, and good saves could see them popped like eggshells, and multi-assaulting wraiths into the then exposed troops will be a synch.
However, if the doom scythes don't get a chance to fire, this will be a very rough day for the Necrons.
Out of curiosity, with such little cover, would it have been perhaps wise to deep strike the doom scythes right next to his formation, and then blast them right away? It would take away the chance of them getting blown away first, but then I suppose you risk scatter problems.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2012/05/03 01:55:08
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
It seems the shooty MSU Space Wolves list is mostly effective at mid and short range. Wraiths and Overlords slice small MEQ units like hot knife through butter. Wraiths are also jump infantry, which lessens vehicle wall effectiveness.
I've played and read games of jy2's MTO Necrons against other MSU lists, but I don't recall reading any that boast the number of vehicles as the one jy2 is currently going up against.
This will be an interesting match up. I still think MTO Necrons will come out victorious, unless jy2's dice rolls below overage for his Wraiths and WBB saves.
Ouch, 3 of your biggest threats knocked out in a turn. Thats very, very bad.
I would say it would have been better if you deep struck the doom scythes in.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2012/05/03 05:56:40
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
If you go flat out in your turn and they shoot in their next turn there is no problem.
Think you made an error in even deploying the scythes, they should have been in reserves is what i am thinking, if not both one should.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 05:57:11
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2012/05/03 06:46:42
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Against a very good player. I'll tell you a little later when I am done with the report.
Lukus83 wrote:Necrons stealing is huge. I was going to say SW, but after that dice roll I have changed my mind. Turn 1 I feel will allow you to push hard and provide a lot of threat saturation, followed up by a Turn 2 slaughter.
I am foreseeing the game being in the bag for 1 side by turn 3 since the Necron list is so aggressive. Necrons are either going to win big or come close to being tabled, though my money is on a Necron win.
Good analysis. I hope you're right, though it's looking more like necrons losing big at this point (after Turn 2).
iGuy91 wrote:Those razorbacks and rhinos are going to have a hard time dealing with STR 10 AP 1 Shots and the CCBs, Taking the right angles, night fighting, and good saves could see them popped like eggshells, and multi-assaulting wraiths into the then exposed troops will be a synch.
However, if the doom scythes don't get a chance to fire, this will be a very rough day for the Necrons.
Out of curiosity, with such little cover, would it have been perhaps wise to deep strike the doom scythes right next to his formation, and then blast them right away? It would take away the chance of them getting blown away first, but then I suppose you risk scatter problems.
I may have to consider deepstriking my doom scythes next time. At the very least, I need to move both flat-out (I didn't move one of them flat-out because I didn't have the space to do so in the direction where I wanted to go). I took a stupid gamble with them and it cost me big.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/03 06:58:03
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2012/05/03 14:34:20
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Yikes.
I think the lesson here is,
"If you deploy Doom Scythes, be prepared to use them first turn ('cause you're pretty much guaranteed not to have them next turn)"
2012/05/03 15:46:04
Subject: Re:2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Valek wrote:Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
Actually if you go flat out, an immobilized result is upgraded to Destroyed-Wrecked.
What you are thinking of is the passengers being killed since they cannot disembark in that movement phase.
You have the SW out of their Bawkses which is good, I think the Spyders might be able to move into the combats to start making a dent in those squads.
It is a shame about the Scythes, I thought you might reserve them originally or concentrate them on one side to limit the number of spotlights available.
Guys, I'd like to ask a favor. I took too many pictures (probably about 120!) for this game. If I post the whole report on p.1, it's going to be real slow in loading for some. I'd like to finish off the rest of the report on p.2 if possible. Please bump it up with comments. Thanks.
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2012/05/03 16:38:08
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Ok. Here's my comment. This game is awesome. Man, you can really see the resiliency (did I spell that right?) of the Wraiths. I was sure they'd be dead in turn 2, and here they've survived through 3. Makes me even more anxious to get my hands on some of the new wraith models.
2012/05/03 16:38:43
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Madmax1 wrote:Ok. Here's my comment. This game is awesome. Man, you can really see the resiliency (did I spell that right?) of the Wraiths. I was sure they'd be dead in turn 2, and here they've survived through 3. Makes me even more anxious to get my hands on some of the new wraith models.
It is kind of crazy that those wraiths are still standing after all of the hits they took.
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2012/05/03 16:41:35
Subject: 2K Competitive - Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) Crons vs Pure MSU Space Wolves
Does anyone know how many posts are displayed before you move to another page?
I can usually only remember to take 3 or 4 total pictures during a game, Kudos for collecting 30 times as many.
Edit: Wow what a pair of turns as well - this seems to have slipped in favor of the Necrons - those 2 Wraiths demonstrate how annoying a 3++ can be on multiwound models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 16:45:10
calypso2ts wrote:Does anyone know how many posts are displayed before you move to another page?
I can usually only remember to take 3 or 4 total pictures during a game, Kudos for collecting 30 times as many.
Edit: Wow what a pair of turns as well - this seems to have slipped in favor of the Necrons - those 2 Wraiths demonstrate how annoying a 3++ can be on multiwound models.
30 posts and it goes onto the next page.
Yeah, momentum is shifting.
SabrX wrote:It seems the shooty MSU Space Wolves list is mostly effective at mid and short range. Wraiths and Overlords slice small MEQ units like hot knife through butter. Wraiths are also jump infantry, which lessens vehicle wall effectiveness.
I've played and read games of jy2's MTO Necrons against other MSU lists, but I don't recall reading any that boast the number of vehicles as the one jy2 is currently going up against.
This will be an interesting match up. I still think MTO Necrons will come out victorious, unless jy2's dice rolls below overage for his Wraiths and WBB saves.
This MSU build isn't quite as shooty as, say, Reece's Bjorn wolves (at least not in terms of ranged shooting). However, that is not always a bad thing. The issue I see with Reece's list is that it plays like a pure gunline. Sure he's got some mobile elements, but the army on the whole doesn't really advocate advancing and getting into position. This build does. It requires you to advance you melta-hunters and wolf guards. To me, that is actually a good thing. It satisfies my requirement of Positional Dominance, or moving to get into good positions to win the game at the end. Essentially, it plays exactly like the Sisters of Battle with 3 exorcists and all those meltas. You rush the opponent and put pressure on them. Fortunately for my crons, no MEQ army really applies pressure quite like my MTO necrons. It is almost always the more aggressive army.
As for screening out jump infantry, it can still be done. Ideally, what you want to do is stop about 9-12" away from them. If you get any closer, then they can jump over you. If you stop further away, then they gain extra movement with their 12" move and then up to 6" charge.
The most tanks they've faced I believe is 12 against your Sisters of Battle. After that, it is 10 against my purifiers (6 rhinos and 4 dreads).
So far, wraiths have been rolling amazingly well. Can't say the same for the rest of my army. Lol.
iGuy91 wrote:Ouch, 3 of your biggest threats knocked out in a turn. Thats very, very bad.
I would say it would have been better if you deep struck the doom scythes in.
Yeah, I may try that out next time....or maybe even swap out my doom scythes for something else.
Valek wrote:Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
If you go flat out in your turn and they shoot in their next turn there is no problem.
Think you made an error in even deploying the scythes, they should have been in reserves is what i am thinking, if not both one should.
Sorry, I think I might have confused some of the readers. The command barge has this special rule called Symbiotic Repair. What it is is if the barge gets immobilized (or weapon destroyed), you can ignore that result by transferring it directly into 1W on the IC in the transport.
However, the controversy here is that when going flat-out, immobilized results immediately becomes wrecked. So which comes first, the wrecked result or Symbiotic Repair? Some say the former. Others the latter. I'm in the camp that says you apply Symbiotic Repair before it becomes a wreck from moving flat-out. So I'm saying that for those who don't agree with this ruling, just consider it as our house-rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote:Yikes.
I think the lesson here is,
"If you deploy Doom Scythes, be prepared to use them first turn ('cause you're pretty much guaranteed not to have them next turn)"
Yeah, I should've. Should've said "to heck with it" and blasted his transports on Turn 1. Even if I had killed 1 rhino only per, it would've still been better than what happened in the game with them. Then again, that's looking at it from hindsight.
gpfunk wrote:Those wraiths can take a lot of punishment! After all those dudes disembarked I thought it was a wipe, but damn if they didn't stay up!
Except 1 game against 9 war walker eldar, my wraiths have been incredibly resilient so far. Honestly, I also thought he would have wiped them out on Turn 2, but I was just making saves like a boss.
calypso2ts wrote:
Valek wrote:Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
Actually if you go flat out, an immobilized result is upgraded to Destroyed-Wrecked.
What you are thinking of is the passengers being killed since they cannot disembark in that movement phase.
You have the SW out of their Bawkses which is good, I think the Spyders might be able to move into the combats to start making a dent in those squads.
It is a shame about the Scythes, I thought you might reserve them originally or concentrate them on one side to limit the number of spotlights available.
Spyders actually helped out a lot this game. Don't count them out. They are very good against normal MEQ units, especially if they are lacking hidden Power Fists.
I definitely misplayed my scythes. I took a gamble that, in hindsight, wasn't really a good one. If you don't get to shooting them on Turn 1, then you definitely need to make sure they are getting both cover and night-fight. Either that or perhaps reserve them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/03 17:00:42
Don't let the Doom Scythes get you too down. It happens!
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.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
5000+ pts. 
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500 
's on the damage charts to only shake each rhino.
The explosions take out 1grey hunter and 1 wolf guard.
Thousand Sons 4000+
4000 pts
