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So after posting up a few lists I was looking at for building an IG foot list one of the most common things I was told was "Omg dude wheres your plasma!!?" or something along those lines.
Leading on from this, how do people rate the Special weapons squads?
Are they effective? Do they just get targeted and go splat before doing damage?
If you want to take plasma, it's best to add that on a platoon command squad with a medic. Same with melta, unless you want to spam vets like the rest of the ignorant masses.
The key is your command unit is already being purchased, so why spend more on men just to give them guns? That's a waste of points. Also, in regard to plasma, without FNP, you tend to lose those important guns much faster.
The only way that it really makes sense to take special weapon squads is to give them three demo charges. Most people ignore them unti they watch a small 95 point unit kill their deathstar. If you really want to screw with people, don't run any plasma or melta, just spam these guys with demo charges and watch them run for cover.
Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.
Xeriapt wrote:I was looking at vet squads originally, but they do cost 115pts with 3 plasmas compared to the special weapons squads 80pts.
The problem with Special weapons squads is you can't take them unless you bring an infantry platoon as well. Often times in that case I'd rather bring a HWS.
Vets do cost more but they also have a better BS and dont require an infantry platoon to bring them.
You can add special weapons to your CCS or PCS if you want as well.
You can always try them out and see how they do, I personally have no use for them.
Ignore Juraigamers comments about ignorant masses and vet squads, its perfectly legal and people have been doing it a long time, I did it when I first started playing 40k with the old codex using The Grenadiers Doctrine making Storm Troopers troop selections.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/08 18:22:34
Having platoons isnt a problem as its a foot list so I need platoons to get enough troops.
The list has quite a few heavy weapons as is and Im wondering if I should bother with plasma at all or just get more bodies and heavy weapons.
Xeriapt wrote:Having platoons isnt a problem as its a foot list so I need platoons to get enough troops.
The list has quite a few heavy weapons as is and Im wondering if I should bother with plasma at all or just get more bodies and heavy weapons.
What's your current list?
Best thing to do is run a match with someone and test them. Everyone told me not to use Mortars but I ran a couple matches with them and fell in love with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/08 18:26:13
Infantry Squad- (Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen)
-Commissar; Power weapon
-Sergeant; Power Weapon, Melta Bombs
Total: 110pts
Heavy Weapon Squad- (3 Heavy Weapon Teams)
-3 Auto Cannons
Total: 75pts
Heavy Weapon Squad- (3 Heavy Weapon Teams)
-3 Auto Cannons
Total: 75pts
Heavy Weapon Squad- (3 Heavy Weapon Teams)
-3 Las-cannons
Total: 105pts
What I was looking at changing was swapping out the vets for more infantry and some special squads..or something. Just not completely solid on this list atm.
Ok I like the core of the list, a few suggestions for you:
You command squad doesn't need krak grenades, if they are close it won't save them.
Same with your platoon command squads, they don't need the krak, power weapons, melta bombs, or the standard. These guys will be in the back of your force giving orders.
Make sure creeds unit and all the other teams have a vox caster. This is nearly mandatory for heavy order usage. Don't put a vox in each infantry unit, just one and then blob them as I think you will. The regimental standard is great for making sure you hold your ground, while the vox caster makes sure those orders go off.
Adding some of those power weapons to your other Sargent will help make them much more of a threat in melee, and a few melta bombs can't hurt either to keep dreads at bay, though I would suggest not allowing enemy dreads to reach melee.
After all that, removing those vet squads for special weapon demo teams would work well for you.
I would suggest making all your heavy weapons teams lascannons, they double as elite infantry killers and will reliably kill nearly any vehicle for you at range.
Also consider putting any special weapons on your platoon command squads, like melta guns and such, and if you add plasma add a medic.
With that said, I really like your list. You managed to cram a 1500 point list into two troops and an HQ, meaning no matter the game you will always be able to deploy your whole army.
Vets won't really work with your army since it's footman based. You would have to expose your vets rather than how most hide them in vehicles to make guard take even less skill to play. Knowing, building and understanding your own army will go a long way to making you a great player, and you have already shown promise in that regard.
Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.
juraigamer wrote:Ok I like the core of the list, a few suggestions for you:
You command squad doesn't need krak grenades, if they are close it won't save them.
Same with your platoon command squads, they don't need the krak, power weapons, melta bombs, or the standard. These guys will be in the back of your force giving orders.
Make sure creeds unit and all the other teams have a vox caster. This is nearly mandatory for heavy order usage. Don't put a vox in each infantry unit, just one and then blob them as I think you will. The regimental standard is great for making sure you hold your ground, while the vox caster makes sure those orders go off.
Adding some of those power weapons to your other Sargent will help make them much more of a threat in melee, and a few melta bombs can't hurt either to keep dreads at bay, though I would suggest not allowing enemy dreads to reach melee.
After all that, removing those vet squads for special weapon demo teams would work well for you.
I would suggest making all your heavy weapons teams lascannons, they double as elite infantry killers and will reliably kill nearly any vehicle for you at range.
Also consider putting any special weapons on your platoon command squads, like melta guns and such, and if you add plasma add a medic.
With that said, I really like your list. You managed to cram a 1500 point list into two troops and an HQ, meaning no matter the game you will always be able to deploy your whole army.
Vets won't really work with your army since it's footman based. You would have to expose your vets rather than how most hide them in vehicles to make guard take even less skill to play. Knowing, building and understanding your own army will go a long way to making you a great player, and you have already shown promise in that regard.
I've never dabbled that much with Special Weapons Squads, especially during Kill Point games, however, I do like their small squad size for objective type games. Counting as Troops, the little six man squad can squat on the objective with a Blob and as the Blob gets chewed up by Emperor knows what, you still have the little squad holding the objective...
182nd Ebon Hawks - 2000 Points
"We descend upon them like lightning from a cloudless sky."
Va'Krata Sept - 2500 Points
"The barbarian Gue'la deserve nothing but a swift death in a shallow grave."
If you ever find yourself playing a Planet Strike game, these guys are your go to men. Since you can Deep Strike anyone anywhere, dumping 6 of these to flame bastions or throw charges on enemies is key and glorious.
One thing I noticed, was that your infantry squads have no special weapons whatsoever. That is most likely why you're hearing "OMG you have no plasma". Infantry squads are scary because they can still bring heavy and special weapons. Not taking those is just a wasted oppurtunity. I would add special weapons to the platoon squads before I invested in SWS's, but that's just me.
Also, might want to look into throwing power weapons on the sgt.s in the platoon, and running combined squads (aka blobs) They can be very effective used correctly, and most people don't expect them to do the damage they're capable of.
For example, here's a sample list I had laying around. Not optimized, but it helps you get tons of bodies with actual killing power
Spoiler:
+++ No Name (1500pts) +++ +++ 1500pt Imperial Guard 5th Ed (2009) Roster (Standard) +++
Selections:
+ HQ + (110pts)
* Company Command Squad (110pts) Lascannon, Meltagun, Officer of the Fleet * Company Commander Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/08 19:35:41
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Really whats hurting special weapon squads is a lack of dedicated transport, no frag grenades (srsly, this has gotta be a typo, right? Why the hell do HWS have frags with the option to take kraks but SWS do not?) Other than that, they are a cost effective way to cram more special weapons in your army. Thus your platoon blobs can be more specialized; I'm not a fan of having blob squads with both heavy and special weapons since youll seldom be able to effectively shoot both.
Infantry Squad- (Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen)
-Commissar; Power weapon
-Sergeant; Power Weapon, Melta Bombs
Total: 110pts
Heavy Weapon Squad- (3 Heavy Weapon Teams)
-3 Auto Cannons
Total: 75pts
Heavy Weapon Squad- (3 Heavy Weapon Teams)
-3 Auto Cannons
Total: 75pts
Heavy Weapon Squad- (3 Heavy Weapon Teams)
-3 Las-cannons
Total: 105pts
What I was looking at changing was swapping out the vets for more infantry and some special squads..or something. Just not completely solid on this list atm.
Not a bad list to be honest. I'd say in this case it wouldn't be all that bad to drop the vets and bring SWS. I personally would add special weapons to your infantry and blob them with that commissar you have. Try to add PW to your infantry seargents again can always drop a vet squad for this and add some special weapons to your PCS or CCS. Some mor elascannons might do you some good but overall the list actually isnt that bad, you dont need stons of plasma or meltas but special weapons in your infantry squads will help.
So, comments about your list aside (it could use a little tuning up, though), I used to use SWSs, and then they got phased out over time until I had none. The reason?
Xeriapt wrote:Do they just get targeted and go splat before doing damage?
...because they just go splat before doing damage. Both SWSs and HWSs are fragile, but HWSs get to start shooting turn 1, while the SWSs have to hope they survive until they can start doing damage turn 3. To make it worse, if you're hiding them behind other stuff to keep them alive longer, then it takes even longer to get them into range of anything. I used to kit my PCSs and CCS to look like SWSs too, but nowadays I kit them to look more like tiny HWSs.
There are two ways I could see them being useful. The first is if they have a ride, but since they can't take dedicated transports, you are rather limited in your abilities to do this. The second is to have a SWS outflank with al'rahem. In that case you're within range of BiD, and you're also getting to show up right next to stuff without getting shot at first.
Jerjare wrote:Really whats hurting special weapon squads is a lack of dedicated transport, no frag grenades (srsly, this has gotta be a typo, right? Why the hell do HWS have frags with the option to take kraks but SWS do not?) Other than that, they are a cost effective way to cram more special weapons in your army. Thus your platoon blobs can be more specialized; I'm not a fan of having blob squads with both heavy and special weapons since youll seldom be able to effectively shoot both.
The lack of assault grenades is what you hate about SWS? Really? Because when you assault with those A1 I3 guardsmen through cover, you have to go last?
Lol.
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Jerjare wrote:Really whats hurting special weapon squads is a lack of dedicated transport, no frag grenades (srsly, this has gotta be a typo, right? Why the hell do HWS have frags with the option to take kraks but SWS do not?) Other than that, they are a cost effective way to cram more special weapons in your army. Thus your platoon blobs can be more specialized; I'm not a fan of having blob squads with both heavy and special weapons since youll seldom be able to effectively shoot both.
The lack of assault grenades is what you hate about SWS? Really? Because when you assault with those A1 I3 guardsmen through cover, you have to go last?
Lol.
LMAO. I see his point but your response was priceless.
Jerjare wrote:Really whats hurting special weapon squads is a lack of dedicated transport, no frag grenades (srsly, this has gotta be a typo, right? Why the hell do HWS have frags with the option to take kraks but SWS do not?) Other than that, they are a cost effective way to cram more special weapons in your army. Thus your platoon blobs can be more specialized; I'm not a fan of having blob squads with both heavy and special weapons since youll seldom be able to effectively shoot both.
The lack of assault grenades is what you hate about SWS? Really? Because when you assault with those A1 I3 guardsmen through cover, you have to go last?
Lol.
LMAO. I see his point but your response was priceless.
Maybe he's upset that he doesn't have the potential to glance an AV10 vehicle in assault? Although to be honest, if you're in that situation, you probably didn't use the squad correctly
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
As I play Orks a lot, I find my Flamer teams invaluable, however I also take A sniper based one on occasion just because I like the look and the ability to cause pinning.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
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Jerjare wrote:Really whats hurting special weapon squads is a lack of dedicated transport, no frag grenades (srsly, this has gotta be a typo, right? Why the hell do HWS have frags with the option to take kraks but SWS do not?) Other than that, they are a cost effective way to cram more special weapons in your army. Thus your platoon blobs can be more specialized; I'm not a fan of having blob squads with both heavy and special weapons since youll seldom be able to effectively shoot both.
The lack of assault grenades is what you hate about SWS? Really? Because when you assault with those A1 I3 guardsmen through cover, you have to go last?
Lol.
Yeah its not like there is lower int then 3. If only there where armies that have a majority at int 2 or weapons that reduce your int to 1.
I have assualted newcrons and Orks or even thss termies through cover. And frag grenades are a god send. Also conscripts have them so why not the sws.
Having some SWS outflanking would be pretty cool, then they will most likely get to shoot before dieing.
For the moment I'll probably concentrate on just having a few special weapons amongs the PCS/CCS and rely on my HWS to do the heavy hitting.
Some plasma is probably going to be handy but as some people have said you should use a med pack for the squad as well, this starts to make the squad a bit to coslty in my opinion.
I see a foot guard list as being masses of infantry that dont cost alot individually, rather than high pts costing squishy squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/09 02:09:17
The best use of them is suicide valk/vend passengers. Give them 3 special weapons, toss them in a valkyrie while the rest of your troops occupy positions or ride in their chimeras, have them jump out and kill something that'd you'd have to otherwise sacrifice a more valuable unit for. Works quite well if used with scout moves in valk/vend transports to first turn melta stuff or come in off a flank and torch something with flamers. The opponent then has to waste time dealing with them that may otherwise have gone to something more valuable.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Right, in order to get the same amount of killing power, you need to take an extra plasma gun. Really, that SWS should count as 95 points. The question then is if it is worth it to spend 20 more points to basically double the number of bodies and to open up a lot of options, like being able to take a dedicated transport, or the ability to take a heavy weapon, etc. etc.
In either case, barring something fancy (like riding in a vendetta) both vets and SWSs are fundamentally reactive, defensive units. In this role, unless you're really lean on points, vets just do it better.
Xeriapt wrote:I was looking at vet squads originally, but they do cost 115pts with 3 plasmas compared to the special weapons squads 80pts.
Still for that you get BS 4 which is delicious, and options for the sergeant. Also I don't thing SWS can take a transport.
I don't think they can take dedicated transports (I don't think anyway, haven't got the codex to hand) But Valks/Vendettas are Fast Attack choices with a transport capacity, so theoretically they can carry anyone.
I'm not much of a gamer, but a suicide SWS in an outflanking Valk with 3 demo charges sounds absolutely awesome
3000 pnts
1500 pnts 
Desert Hunters of Vior'la 
The Purge 
Iron Hands 
Adepts of Pestilence 
Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
182nd Ebon Hawks - 2000 Points
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
