GW to order retailers to stop shipping to southern hemisphere...

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**vonjankmon**

I just have to wonder if Privateer, Mantic, BattleFront, and the other smaller gaming companies just got HUGE stiff ones and are already making plans to take advantage of this.

With some focused attention for a couple of years it seems entirely possible that they could basically turn the tables on GW in NZ and AUS making their games the big deal and GW games the kind of side game people play from time to time.

Doesn't seem like there would ever be a better time than now to get as many events going as possible, talk to the retail stores in those countries to get them to stock more of their products, etc.

Because in the end people aren't going to start buying a lot more GW at retail in those countries. They can just pop onto Ebay. I'll lay money that within less than a week you'll see ebayers selling at 10-15% discount to those countries. Because people in the UK or US can bulk buy from their local discounter at 20-25% off, shave 5-10% for basically doing nothing, and sell the products over to AUS and NZ. And it's totally legal and there's nothing GW can do about it.

**Trasvi**

filbert wrote:
Trasvi wrote:I think this just all comes back to GW not really caring about retaining customers. All they want is timmy to buy his 2000pts worth of models, then lock them in a cupboard forever when he gets bored of them. Anyone who notices any of the 3 announced changes today is NOT part of GW's target audience.
They already have their pound of flesh from you and couldn't care less if you keep offering them more. Their target audience, little timmy, doesn't know that the box of shiny models he is holding was 20% cheaper 2 days ago, nor does he know that people in another country pay 50% less than him.

That's very true but it assumes that Timmy and his parents buy blind with no heed to equivalent products or services. GW does not exist in a vacuum; it has to compete with video games and stuff like that. GW prices do not have infinite elasticity - there will come a point, sooner rather than later, where Timmy's mother looks at GW stuff as opposed to other forms of entertainment or hobbies and simply says 'no'. And some would contend that it is already happening; without quoting verbatim, the last few profit reports from GW have shown a trend of falling sales - the only reason GW has managed to keep profits steady is by slashing costs and hiking prices. There is only so much of this you can do and doing it as a way to 'fudge' growth and profit statistics is not a viable long term business strategy.

Agreed to every point except 'equivalent products'. There might be competing interests like video games, but in terms of widely available wargames in prominent shopping locations, not so much. At least where I live, there is only one independent store nearby, and it is quite literally in a basement out of sight, to the point where I sometimes walk past it on my way there, and it has no gaming facilities. Parents see GW products, assume thats just the norm for pricing - they would think that surely online prices would be only 10% cheaper at most, and any competition in the market would keep the price down. Ha. Its only when one begins to surf forums or go to a gaming club that you begin to hear whispers of 'Mantic' and 'Warmahordes' - and by that time, to paraphrase myself
Anyone who knows of GW's competitors or GW's pricing shenanigans is NOT part of GW's target audience.

Which is quite sad, really. GW are targetting the newbie wargamer, and completely neglecting the person who may already be playing other wargames. Seems pretty silly to blank the person who is already interested in your product, but hey, thats GW.

**filbert**

vonjankmon wrote:I just have to wonder if Privateer, Mantic, BattleFront, and the other smaller gaming companies just got HUGE stiff ones and are already making plans to take advantage of this.

Put it this way, I would be hugely surprised if they weren't. One of the advantages of being a small company over a relatively large corporate behemoth like GW is flexibility, speed of response and adaptability. I am sure the smaller mini producers in the market have been eyeing the situation for some time and have plans in place to take advantage of the situation.

**AlexHolker**

Ouze wrote:...don't organize boycotts... Vote with your dollars, and stop buying their stuff.

Make up your mind.

The important thing is that you and anyone else you can convince to boycott GW doesn't front-load their purchases, they stop, immediately, and they don't start again unless GW backs down.

**Trasvi**

vonjankmon wrote:Because in the end people aren't going to start buying a lot more GW at retail in those countries. They can just pop onto Ebay. I'll lay money that within less than a week you'll see ebayers selling at 10-15% discount to those countries. Because people in the UK or US can bulk buy from their local discounter at 20-25% off, shave 5-10% for basically doing nothing, and sell the products over to AUS and NZ. And it's totally legal and there's nothing GW can do about it.

Maelstrom and co, I believe, have clauses in their agreements which basically say 'you cannot knowingly distribute to a third party retailer'. Tenuous, as Maelstrom doesn't know what you are doing, but GW could claim they should be able to work it out from volume of orders.

More likely, Aussies who are determined to get the best deal will do the same thing we do to get products from the US: http://www.myus.com/ (or similar package-forwarding service)

**NAVARRO**

Trasvi wrote:Agreed to every point except 'equivalent products'. There might be competing interests like video games, but in terms of widely available wargames in prominent shopping locations, not so much. At least where I live, there is only one independent store nearby, and it is quite literally in a basement out of sight, to the point where I sometimes walk past it on my way there, and it has no gaming facilities. Parents see GW products, assume thats just the norm for pricing - they would think that surely online prices would be only 10% cheaper at most, and any competition in the market would keep the price down. Ha. Its only when one begins to surf forums or go to a gaming club that you begin to hear whispers of 'Mantic' and 'Warmahordes' - and by that time, to paraphrase myself
Anyone who knows of GW's competitors or GW's pricing shenanigans is NOT part of GW's target audience.

Which is quite sad, really. GW are targetting the newbie wargamer, and completely neglecting the person who may already be playing other wargames. Seems pretty silly to blank the person who is already interested in your product, but hey, thats GW.

Hummmm I dont know about that but the global recession makes people in general and specially parents more "informed" about deals and options than ever before... Its not even a question of disposable income.
Sure that no other competitor, apart GW, has a dedicated store chain... but theres independent stores and there all products are exposed.

**gr1m_dan**

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Paul wrote:
gr1m_dan wrote:Hi all,

I think I posted somewhere earlier in this thread or another relating to it stating how mad I am but having slept on it...I am just sad BUT this has happened before in other industries.

I am a semi-pro musician and have spent thousands of £ on gear as you can imagine. Now...I LOVE music shops and can't abide buying from the net even if it is cheaper and even music companies have stopped selling to online retailers UNLESS they have a shop front. Basically the online boom sent many shops out of business because they couldn't cope with the massive discounts online guys were doing. At one point an online music shop was making around £5 on a Shure SM58 mic whilst before physical shops were making a good healthy £30/40 on them. Shops simply couldn't compete and then the local music scene struggled. Things are turning around now though and it seems a lot of physical shops have eventually caught up with the internet and offering good deals themselves on their own websites.

I can see why GW have done it but I don't think they've thought it through. It seems a knee jerk reaction to bad sales.

You hit the nail on the head. The reason behind this will be that FLGS's are complaining to GW reps that they put the time and effot in to grow the hobby, advertise for free and run events and people go online to stores that undercut them because they don't put the money in to the support. From my experience working in another industry online stores probably don't even hold much in the way of stock, mostly they will use EDI to run so that when you place an order they will place an order with GW. This will then be shipped to them next day, and then on to you.

This is not GW being evil and nasty, they are trying to balance the demands of the industry and the players. Both us and the shops are there customers, and we both have diffrent demands. They may have got the balance right, they may not, only time will tell.

In reply to the questions about the law, no its not illigal. Free trade only applies to the EU for GW, but in that case companys get forced to sell on a level footing, but also governments are forced to do the same with tax. If they wanted they could have given in totaly and stopped selling to anyone who sells exclusivly online.

Doesn't fly as a concept. Its the same line that BF tried to use on Maesltrom "Your cheap cheap prices undermine the hobby because you don't have a real shop." comes in the email from the man who has BEEN to the site, and the Maelstrom chaps sit in their real shop with adjoined gaming area, look around and wonder if its all a dream, given how much they do to support the hobby. Not to mention that the ability to purchase hobby materials at a reasonable price IS supporting the hobby much more effectively than pricing half the planet out of the market.

The way to deal with the disparity between online retailers (which many of these shops exclusively AREN'T) is obvious. Internationally, more attention needs to be paid towards exchange rates and price setting, especially within this particular hobby. Within the system as a whole it would be sensible if the relevant economic bodies (governments, trade unions, whoever) address the reasons why online retail puts "real" shops out of business, and create POSITIVE parity that benefits the consumer. So that would be tax-breaks or reduced rental arrangements and so forth that make it easier for "shops" to compete..not arbitrary rubbish like this that makes it more expensive for online retailers and more importantly consumers...because at the end of the day its the consumers that are getting it in the neck.

BF complained over the 4 times a year voucher offer Maelstrom do that I believe offers extra % off an already discounted price. Imagine how many companies/shops complained to Battlefront about this discount Maelstrom were offering and had to react somehow.

This happened in the music industry/business I'm in. "Real" shops complained to all the different makes of equipment/instruments and eventually most stopped selling to online only retailers and made you have at least a shop front which has improved the situation a lot, regarding the local music scenes and prices. I give credit to Maelstrom for doing this, at least they have a proper shop and a gaming hall. I wish BF and Maelstrom would just kiss and make up to be honest.

**Deathly Angel**

What the

GW??? I'm in high school and consider myself relatively new to the hobby (two or three years), am much slower than the average painter due to my obsession with everything being perfect and I've only just started ordering off discount sites because of Australia's pricing, and now Maelstrom at least is being proscribed from the southern hemisphere?? Please tell me this doesn't apply to Wayland as well PLEEAASE???

**Swordwind**

Deathly Angel wrote:What the GW??? I'm in high school and consider myself relatively new to the hobby (two or three years), am much slower than the average painter due to my obsession with everything being perfect and I've only just started ordering off discount sites because of Australia's pricing, and now Maelstrom at least is being proscribed from the southern hemisphere?? Please tell me this doesn't apply to Wayland as well PLEEAASE???

Unfortunately it does mate. It applies to every discount store I believe. I share your pain, fellow south-hemispherer.

**Kroothawk**

Ouze wrote:...don't organize boycotts... Vote with your dollars, and stop buying their stuff.

Actually people are doing this for years: Watch the annual reports on declining sales and custmer numbers. Only the annual 10% price increase makes it to a slow decline. Problem is that GW management and shareholders are totally immune to economic signals.

**Deathly Angel**

Would anyone know any good retailers outside the EU that would ship to the South Hemisphere such as an American company that we could use? If so is it reliable and does it offer similar prices to Wayland/Maelstrom?

**SagesStone**

Probably the Warstore or something, I'm not sure.

Also instead of immune, maybe amazed, scared, oblivious, etc.

**Paul**

gr1m_dan wrote:
ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Paul wrote:
gr1m_dan wrote:Hi all,

I think I posted somewhere earlier in this thread or another relating to it stating how mad I am but having slept on it...I am just sad BUT this has happened before in other industries.

I am a semi-pro musician and have spent thousands of £ on gear as you can imagine. Now...I LOVE music shops and can't abide buying from the net even if it is cheaper and even music companies have stopped selling to online retailers UNLESS they have a shop front. Basically the online boom sent many shops out of business because they couldn't cope with the massive discounts online guys were doing. At one point an online music shop was making around £5 on a Shure SM58 mic whilst before physical shops were making a good healthy £30/40 on them. Shops simply couldn't compete and then the local music scene struggled. Things are turning around now though and it seems a lot of physical shops have eventually caught up with the internet and offering good deals themselves on their own websites.

I can see why GW have done it but I don't think they've thought it through. It seems a knee jerk reaction to bad sales.

You hit the nail on the head. The reason behind this will be that FLGS's are complaining to GW reps that they put the time and effot in to grow the hobby, advertise for free and run events and people go online to stores that undercut them because they don't put the money in to the support. From my experience working in another industry online stores probably don't even hold much in the way of stock, mostly they will use EDI to run so that when you place an order they will place an order with GW. This will then be shipped to them next day, and then on to you.

This is not GW being evil and nasty, they are trying to balance the demands of the industry and the players. Both us and the shops are there customers, and we both have diffrent demands. They may have got the balance right, they may not, only time will tell.

In reply to the questions about the law, no its not illigal. Free trade only applies to the EU for GW, but in that case companys get forced to sell on a level footing, but also governments are forced to do the same with tax. If they wanted they could have given in totaly and stopped selling to anyone who sells exclusivly online.

Doesn't fly as a concept. Its the same line that BF tried to use on Maesltrom "Your cheap cheap prices undermine the hobby because you don't have a real shop." comes in the email from the man who has BEEN to the site, and the Maelstrom chaps sit in their real shop with adjoined gaming area, look around and wonder if its all a dream, given how much they do to support the hobby. Not to mention that the ability to purchase hobby materials at a reasonable price IS supporting the hobby much more effectively than pricing half the planet out of the market.

The way to deal with the disparity between online retailers (which many of these shops exclusively AREN'T) is obvious. Internationally, more attention needs to be paid towards exchange rates and price setting, especially within this particular hobby. Within the system as a whole it would be sensible if the relevant economic bodies (governments, trade unions, whoever) address the reasons why online retail puts "real" shops out of business, and create POSITIVE parity that benefits the consumer. So that would be tax-breaks or reduced rental arrangements and so forth that make it easier for "shops" to compete..not arbitrary rubbish like this that makes it more expensive for online retailers and more importantly consumers...because at the end of the day its the consumers that are getting it in the neck.

BF complained over the 4 times a year voucher offer Maelstrom do that I believe offers extra % off an already discounted price. Imagine how many companies/shops complained to Battlefront about this discount Maelstrom were offering and had to react somehow.

This happened in the music industry/business I'm in. "Real" shops complained to all the different makes of equipment/instruments and eventually most stopped selling to online only retailers and made you have at least a shop front which has improved the situation a lot, regarding the local music scenes and prices. I give credit to Maelstrom for doing this, at least they have a proper shop and a gaming hall. I wish BF and Maelstrom would just kiss and make up to be honest.

Ah, now I see why we seem to have experiences on this. I work in music publishing and the shops made just the same complaints to us, and still do as we cannot cut off online retail (because of two big reasons that I'm sure you can guess).

Part of the problem is that online shops do have lower costs by not providing services that "real shops do. The other part of the problem is that too many "real" shop owners have huge persicution complexes. Its them you should point the finger at. For example they often complain that a well known online retailer gets unfair discounts, where as in reality they actualy get less discount than allot of the larger shops, BECAUSE the industry I am in recognises the vital part the knolage and help these people provide. We take a lower proffit knowing that in the long run having a sales person sell for you, and help people in to the hobby (music or wargames) increases sales in the long run, in a way that online sellers never will.

My view is that online shops give healthy competition, but I can see where they can distroy a market, but equaly since online book buying we seem to have seen an increase in indy shops, as people start to realise that what they offer.

**Achaylus72**

Well i have found a supplier and they are 30% cheaper than GW Australia, this includes the postage.

**warboss**

Achaylus72 wrote:Well i have found a supplier and they are 30% cheaper than GW Australia, this includes the postage.

That same supplier may refuse to service your orders after May 28th. You may need to double check on the status after that date.

**Achaylus72**

^ well i am making hay while the sun shines, just purchased 5 Chaos Space Marine 10 x man Tactical Squads including postage for $136.94US

That is $129.35AU total, for the record GW Australian Shelf Price for the same is $310AU thus saving me a whopping $180.65AU that saves me a total of 52% off GW Australia shelf price.

**NeoMaul**

A few posts in this thread have questioned whether it is legal for GW to do this. I am not an expert on this, but I have found some interesting information suggesting that it might not be legal.

GW and Maelstrom are in the UK and hence operate under the trade laws of the European Union. The general attitude of the European Union from what I can gather is that nothing should be allowed that will harm a members ability to trade freely within the EU and around the world.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/tackling-unfair-trade/trade-barriers/

This website here says:

"Businesses can use the TBR to ask the European Commission to investigate restrictions on their sales abroad, discriminatory treatment in foreign markets, difficulty obtaining patents or licenses or any other form of unfair barrier to their export of goods or services."

Article 34 seems possibly related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_movement_of_goods#Quantitative_restrictions_and_measures_having_equivalent_effect

Also it is interesting to me that wayland games hasn't made the announcement yet. Maybe they are investigating how legal it is.

Hopefully someone who has detailed understanding of these laws will come along and enlighten us.

**kronk**

Ouze wrote:Guys, it's not his fault he hits us. We just make him so mad!

I can't remember the last time I actually LOL'ed at an internet post. This made me laugh.

To my friends and gamer pals in Australia and elsewhere, I'm very sorry that GW is treating you this way. This whole situation sucks balls.

**Achaylus72**

@NeoMaul

I see a potential problem as GW is well within their right to protect the Australian Market, as they have an established business established here in Aussie.

This would negate the TBR, if Australia did not have a GW corporation established here but a series of independents then the TBF would be used.

Sorry to say that GW is well within its rights to protect GW Australia.

**Paul**

TheTBR relates mostly to governments and takeing action at the WTO. Market restriction is totaly legal and used by allot of companys.

**Kilkrazy**

Postal Services from UK to Australia
Prices are in GBP

Parcel Weight Airmail Surface Mail
500g              11.43       9.11
1000g            22.54       12.51
1500g            28.09       15.91
2000g (max) 33.64       19.31

Signed For Delivery costs £4.95 (included in the prices above).

Insurance for packets worth over £41 can be bought separately.

**Temujin**

Without access to Maelstrom the cost of GW products more than doubles for me. I'm out. I'll consider buying again only when this restriction is ditched. I would encourage others to do likewise.

**keezus**

Trasvi wrote:I think this just all comes back to GW not really caring about retaining customers. All they want is timmy to buy his 2000pts worth of models, then lock them in a cupboard forever when he gets bored of them. Anyone who notices any of the 3 announced changes today is NOT part of GW's target audience.
They already have their pound of flesh from you and couldn't care less if you keep offering them more. Their target audience, little timmy, doesn't know that the box of shiny models he is holding was 20% cheaper 2 days ago, nor does he know that people in another country pay 50% less than him.

That must be why sales volume is going up...

Oh wait.

**Hollo**

Temujin wrote:Without access to Maelstrom the cost of GW products more than doubles for me. I'm out. I'll consider buying again only when this restriction is ditched. I would encourage others to do likewise.

Oz resident and been doin this "hobby" for about 14 years. Over those 14 years I've watched the prices here steadily rise, and it was an exorbitant amount to begin with, by many standards.

I won't justify supporting a company that continues to act like this. Sadly, Gamesworkshop aren't alone, but at least in this instance it makes it alot easier to say goodbye.

**ArbeitsSchu**

NeoMaul wrote:A few posts in this thread have questioned whether it is legal for GW to do this. I am not an expert on this, but I have found some interesting information suggesting that it might not be legal.

GW and Maelstrom are in the UK and hence operate under the trade laws of the European Union. The general attitude of the European Union from what I can gather is that nothing should be allowed that will harm a members ability to trade freely within the EU and around the world.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/tackling-unfair-trade/trade-barriers/

This website here says:

"Businesses can use the TBR to ask the European Commission to investigate restrictions on their sales abroad, discriminatory treatment in foreign markets, difficulty obtaining patents or licenses or any other form of unfair barrier to their export of goods or services."

Article 34 seems possibly related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_movement_of_goods#Quantitative_restrictions_and_measures_having_equivalent_effect

Also it is interesting to me that wayland games hasn't made the announcement yet. Maybe they are investigating how legal it is.

Hopefully someone who has detailed understanding of these laws will come along and enlighten us.

According to their facebook status last night thats exactly what they are doing. It does seem that it should be covered by the section you quote though. Any bets as to whether GW just stepped on another legal land-mine that they didn't know was there? If that transpires to be the case then I have a suggestion for increasing next years profits.. bin your lawyers GW. Save yourself a fortune.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another option. Maelstrom franchises itself to the Southern Hemisphere..sends its own stock down there, and sells that at a realistic price?

**Chimera_Calvin**

If any indie retailer opened stores in aus to get round this restriction, GW would simply refuse to sell them anything (see the Maelstrom/BF farce)

Ultimately GW believes it can do what it wants, when it wants and only an unprecedented level of complaints (in all forms - written, phone calls, in person at stores or HQ, emails etc) coupled with simply not buying anything from GW will help. I believe ArbeitsSchu's sig bears repeating here:

"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all" Mario Savio

We need action as a collective - it won't happen this time just as it hasn't happened before. And that is the only reason GW gets away with this kind of gak.

**StarFyre**

Lunahound - they have an actual store. email them and they have everything in their physical location. The ebay listing has less stuff.

Sanjay

**penek**

ok i got it... GW give GREEN signal to their "competitors" - like we have enough money now, its your turn )))

**lords2001**

Achaylus72 wrote:^ well i am making hay while the sun shines, just purchased 5 Chaos Space Marine 10 x man Tactical Squads including postage for $136.94US

That is $129.35AU total, for the record GW Australian Shelf Price for the same is $310AU thus saving me a whopping $180.65AU that saves me a total of 52% off GW Australia shelf price.

Care to share the website?

**redeyed**

"sighs" :(

I feel really sorry for you guys in Auz/elsewhere in the world

Give Warmachine/Hordes a go if you havent already. It's quite alot of fun (I recently got into it myself)