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I spent 99% of my time in the News & Rumours section, but it's getting really annoying that half the threads in there are either Kickstarter or Indiegogo threads about different companies trying to get money for different projects. Could you please create a new section just for those types of threads?

As has been discussed previously, Kickstarter projects are no less newsworthy than any other upcoming release. They're ultimately no different to any other pre-release news snippet.


At the very least, they usually include concept art or WIP sculpts, which is more than can be said for the majority of Games Workshop-related news threads...

I think there is a fundamental difference between a product that either exists or is in pre-production, and a hypothetical project which may (or may not) ever exist at all.

Putting that to the side for a moment, though - I suspect there have been more threads regarding Kickstarters then there have been about Mantic games, and they got their own forum. Just be open to the idea, is all.

 Ouze wrote:
I think there is a fundamental difference between a product that either exists or is in pre-production, and a hypothetical project which may (or may not) ever exist at all.

Given how many of the Kickstarters we've seen have shown physical greens just waiting for moulds to be made, and how many 'news' threads from various miniatures companies just include sketches or text descriptions, where exactly do you draw the line?

I think this discussion will pretty much go the way it went last time. But, if they were to hit a threshold where there were enough of them to be choking the section would their own section be considered?

The "preorder" ones are more use than the conceptual ones which is where the main difference comes in it for me. One is news about a product that will exist at one point the other is news that the product may exist at some point. I think a more likely solution would be to probably just bring tags to that section rather than split it. Something like [News] for confirmed, [Rumor] for unconfirmed and [Kickstarter] or something fitting for them. Gives everyone an idea of what they're walking into so you'll be able to avoid them if they really bother you too much. However most of the thread titles are already pretty clear anyway, just looking at the list I can already tell which is which; the kickstarters mentioning it in their title.

Basically why fix what doesn't seem to be broken yet?

 n0t_u wrote:
I think this discussion will pretty much go the way it went last time. But, if they were to hit a threshold where there were enough of them to be choking the section would their own section be considered?

This is the bit that I'm still not understanding.

How are threads about new miniature projects 'choking up' the News and Rumours section? That's exactly what the News and Rumours section is for...


It's like complaining that you go to the P&M showcase board, and every thread you open is showing off painted miniatures.

The "preorder" ones are more use than the conceptual ones which is where the main difference comes in it for me. One is news about a product that will exist at one point the other is news that the product may exist at some point.

So what about Rumour threads? They're also about products that only 'may' exist at some point.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I think there is a fundamental difference between a product that either exists or is in pre-production, and a hypothetical project which may (or may not) ever exist at all.

Given how many of the Kickstarters we've seen have shown physical greens just waiting for moulds to be made, and how many 'news' threads from various miniatures companies just include sketches or text descriptions, where exactly do you draw the line?

That's a good question. I have to think about it.

 insaniak wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think this discussion will pretty much go the way it went last time. But, if they were to hit a threshold where there were enough of them to be choking the section would their own section be considered?

This is the bit that I'm still not understanding.

How are threads about new miniature projects 'choking up' the News and Rumours section? That's exactly what the News and Rumours section is for...


It's like complaining that you go to the P&M showcase board, and every thread you open is showing off painted miniatures.

Unbased painted models.

I'm not saying they need their own section here anyway. I was asking if one day if there are way more of them than non-crowdfunding, would they possibly get their own section in order to allow room for the non-crowdfunding and allow the crowdfunding threads to have full attention. As it is, they are quite the minority still and doesn't warrant the need for a split which would likely be more detrimental than helpful at the moment. I'm looking way off into a probably unlikely future.

The only real difference between the "preorder" one and conceptual one is that the first can be considered news while the second is more of a rumour. More or less clarification between the two within the would be more helpful that to shove them off to their own little island. The "preorder" ones being the ones from the larger companies like Mantic and such who seem to have taken to the system to run it as such. I somehow think even without the funds from it those companies would still managed to start up their product.

Unlike last time I don't see the point of a split anyway. Seems fine the way it is.

I think I'd define the difference as such:

N&R: a product release in which the release is not contingent upon as-yet-unfulfilled funding as a precondition of being released.

Hypothetical Kickstarter forum: Product releases which will only exist if crowdfunding is successful.

 Ouze wrote:
I think I'd define the difference as such:

N&R: a product release in which the release is not contingent upon as-yet-unfulfilled funding as a precondition of being released.

Hypothetical Kickstarter forum: Product releases which will only exist if crowdfunding is successful.

True, but rumored products often don't ever get released (or do so in a modified state), and sometimes even announced products go belly-up before they ever go on sale.

Realistically, the News & Rumors forum is about all the news and rumors involving the world of wargaming, not just what is the newest product that is currently available (although that is obviously a big part of it). Like it or not, Kickstarter campaigns are a big item of interest to a lot of people because they're either unique new projects or they represent the ability to pull of cool projects that may have never happened otherwise. In either case, they tend to capture that 'ooh shiny, something new!' quotient that people like to read about.

Putting crowd-funding threads into their own section simply means a splintering of the general news and rumors experience, so instead of going to one forum to see basically what new topics are trending hot with conversation, you now have to go to a separate forum to see if the hottest thing out is really a kickstarter campaign.

It just doesn't make much sense to me. As long as the threads are properly titled, they are easy to skip and there's enough real estate on the first page to make sure topics that deserve to be seen aren't simply getting pushed out.

I agree that there is definitely a glut of crowd-funding projects going on right now and I doubt its going to stop anytime in the near future, but that really kind of is the current face of wargaming in a large way right now and therefore should be in the news section of the forum.

Really, the best thing that people can do who don't like these threads is to not post in them. Everytime someone sees a crowd-funding topic that they think is stupid or unworthy and they post in that thread, they're just giving more attention to the topic to help it out. If they just left dumb kickstarter threads to their own accord then those threads would drift away and nobody would bother with them.

What about optionally having kickstarter threads prefixed in a specific way, like [crowd] Space Hooligans Shoulderpad indiegogo, or [crowd] Psychic Wombat kickstarter? Just something to make the topics easier to skim through for those who have zero interest in crowdfunding type ventures. I'm not one of them, I got in on several, but I think the frequency of this request in N&B indicates an actual community desire for some sort of alternative to the current status quo as a housekeeping measure.

Though I also certainly get the fractionalization argument as well. I'm sure whatever you guys decide is for the best.

Wouldn't the words "indiegogo" or "kickstarter" kind of give it away that they are crowdfunding projects without the [crowd] tag?

I'll put what I put in another thread not too long ago (asking for gw news and other news to be split into different forums). If it wasn't for the current dakkadakka way of combining news into one forum, I wouldn't have discovered most of the new companies and miniatures I'm now buying and enjoying.

Compare to how warseer do things - many different news boards split up across the forums - it's hard to keep track and theres no interest amongst the users in attempting to discover alternatives. Keeping it in one forum will make it easier to discover new stuff and encourage people to branch out from the traditional 40k/fantasy/lotr three.

I believe that the Kickstarter-craze was the best thing that ever happend to the News/Rumours Forum.

Before it, it was essentially a GW rumour-tarot & GW news-announcement (made even more frustrating by GW's information policy). Other things were rather far between.

Now it's become more and more a genuinely comprehensive forum covering the world of miniatures and wargaming.

And as noted, virtually all those threads on Kickstarter (indiegogo, etc..) already include these references in the title, so it wouldn't be hard to steer clear of them (in comparison, it's often a lot harder to avoid - for example - GW-related threads there, as people don't tend to have the cutesy of putting "Games Workshop" or something of that sort in the title),.

Current breakdown of N&R:

13 Games Workshop Threads (not counting the two GW related stickies on top)
10 Kickstarter/Indiegogo Threads
24 "Other" threads.

If you don't count the stickies on top you get:

51% Everything else
28% GW
21% Kickstarter

Is having Kickstarters take up ~20% of the News & Rumors really such a bad thing? Considering that they are actually news that relate to the hobby? Games Workshop takes up more real estate on the N&R than any other company, but nobody has suggested kicking them out and putting them in their own N&R forum.

Games Workshop is popular, but this is NOT a Games Workshop forum. It is a hobby forum, that includes tabletop, board games, role playing, and even some computer games, and a very demented off-topic section.

I am amazed how having an active N&R forum where actual News & Rumors are posted on a regular basis that cover so many different game systems that I have never even heard off seems to be a had thing in the eyes of some.

Sorry for the necro, but had an idea to throw into this pot that I didn't feel warranted a new thread. Perhaps when a kickstarter hits it's deadline, it can be moved to the dakka discussion forum. Likewise with the massive threads that result from an upcoming codex/army book. Move them into the appropriate discussion forum once the product has been released. I like the fact that there is such good discussion on N&R, but it tends to get crammed up with things that simply aren't news or rumors anymore...at least it seems that way to me. Just a thought.

Most news & rumors get moved to discussion once you hit a release date, which is a bit harder to do with kickstarters. Just because they closed doesn't mean that they are released now. People can't join them anymore, but there are still developments and changes that people could be interested in once it makes it to a full release.

 d-usa wrote:
Most news & rumors get moved to discussion once you hit a release date, which is a bit harder to do with kickstarters. Just because they closed doesn't mean that they are released now. People can't join them anymore, but there are still developments and changes that people could be interested in once it makes it to a full release.

Pretty much!

Most Kickstarters are far from done when their last day to pledge has come and gone.

In fact, that's when the News and Previews might actually get more interesting, and more important!

I love the general chaos that is the N&R forum, it has shown me loads more cool stuff that I never would have seen otherwise.

Kickstarter threads don't get an auto-success on here either, the bad ones tend to get ignored and full off the fron page fairly rapidly unless there's some members who have pledged on it.

In many cases, Dakka ends up being a serious driver for getting more funds, especially with stuff like the Dreamforge KS where the creator is on the forums and answering questions, people love that kind of direct feedback.

I'm fine with kickstarters in the news section myself.

yeah,

 Alpharius wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Most news & rumors get moved to discussion once you hit a release date, which is a bit harder to do with kickstarters. Just because they closed doesn't mean that they are released now. People can't join them anymore, but there are still developments and changes that people could be interested in once it makes it to a full release.

Pretty much!

Most Kickstarters are far from done when their last day to pledge has come and gone.

In fact, that's when the News and Previews might actually get more interesting, and more important!

I think they can be moved. once the kickstarter has closed, Most pledgers will have already commented in the forums thread.
Everyone who has been commenting will be subscribed and can continue to 'discuss' their kickstarter in the discussions forum after the move.
If the product becomes available again, move back to news, to display the re-release, or start a new thread...

Like Sedation Wars
The News of the latest green is only of any real value to those of us who have backed the project, and shouldn't be hanging around the first page choking up the new and rumours forum for 3-4 months. It becomes real news again once the boxed game is being launched.

I imagine it's the same with Dreadball and Zombiecide.

Panic...

I would prefer a separate Kickstarter sub-forum.

As long as they have Indigogo or Kickstarter clearly marked in the thread title, I've grown to accept it. I don't like it, but they're easy to ignore.

Kind of like taxes, I think.

Kickstarter threads are more like advertising than news. You could call an advert for shaving cream news, but enough people find them obnoxious enough to call them adverts.

The #1 post in these threads has to be a variation of "OMG I've already dropped $5000 this month, they're gonna nerf my gaming budget!!!1!1!1!"

It especially gripes me when months after the project was funded a thread continues as a sort of private club. How does it continue to be news?

You could say that any post about a product is advertisement. All of the GW product news and rumors are advertisement for future GW products.

If you don't like the threads, don't go in them.

 Davylove21 wrote:
Kickstarter threads are more like advertising than news.

And the latest Forgeworld Release Newsletter isn't?

The only functional difference between a Kickstarter news post and a news post about any other pre-release gaming item is that one of them is on Kickstarter.

I would like to add something here...

Kick starter does not provide nor do they guarantee that you will get your 'investment' they are just the funding site.

It is also up to the people running the said kick starter to provide the end product.

It is not a pre-order it is an investment with most kickstarters at least.

I also think that we should have a kick starter section - Just for organization purposes

HeadClot wrote:
It is not a pre-order it is an investment with most kickstarters at least.

With most of the gaming-related kickstarters that we've seen so far, there is no functional difference. The amount of the most common pledge gets you the new release when it is made. The only difference between that and any other pre-release is that the product may not have actually been made yet... although given that we're seeing more and more pre-releases or future release notifications in the form of 3D renders these days, that's another difference that is slowly disappearing.

It is also up to the people running the said kick starter to provide the end product.

That's the case with anything that you buy.

I'm just going to say that there are more COMPLETED kickstarters in the News/Rumors section than news or rumors. There isn't any news in those threads anymore, and they should find a new home.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm just going to say that there are more COMPLETED kickstarters in the News/Rumors section than news or rumors. There isn't any news in those threads anymore, and they should find a new home.

They include updates on ship times, updates on production, updated drawings/renders/sculpts, etc.

They include just as much news as any other thread in there, quite a few of them have more than the GW N&R threads which are often just wishlisting because there are no actual leaks.

And just for comparison, the current total threads out of 50 on the first page:

14 Kickstarter/Indiegogo threads (28%)
10 GW threads (20%)

So Games Workshop takes up as much (and often more) threads in N&R than all the separate Kickstarter/Indiegogo threads combined.

One single company takes up almost as much real estate on page 1 as 14 separate companies who just happen to share the same funding source. If we break it down by actual companies we get what?

GW taking up 20%
14 companies taking up 2% each.

Yet everybody complains about these individual companies having their one thread when GW gets 10...