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So i have started a ig army and i just bought heavy weapon teams for each of my squads, but the problem is which heavy weapon should i have as my standard? each squad is rocking grenade launchers.

You can never really go wrong with the autocannon.

I like lascannons, Autocannons, or Missile Launchers.

The only viable option for a PIS these days is Plasma/Melta and a Lascannon.

Anyone who says otherwise hasn't tried it and seen how good it is.

Heh, yeah.

I'd go for lascannons as well. Everything else just lets you down. You do very little damage with mortars. You plink things with heavy bolters. You peel paint off of vehicles with autocannons. You get deeply frustrating results with missile launchers.

Then you field lascannons, and you kill whatever you point at dead.

And it feels SO right.

On a similar note, ditch those grenade launchers. Blast lasguns are cool until you realise what things like meltaguns can do.

I would have thought that GLs synergise with autocannon quite well on Krak mode for light vehicle hunting from range. For when meltas are overkill (if there is such a thing)

I Highly disagree with the Lascannon point of view (especially if paired with a PG), that makes the price go up to 85 pts a squad, that'w way too much for 10 imperial guards if you ask me
90% of the time, I field squads with only 1 special weapons and lasguns, sometimes (the 10%) I includ a Heavy Bolter for increased anti-personnal duties on a few squads that will defend home objectives

To me, guardsmen do 2 things well
1) Dying in droves
2) Throwing a lot of stuff at the opponent's face in the hope that some will hit

That's why I usually field 8 Infantry squads in 1500 games (2 platoons) and 10-12 in higher games (3 platoons), the squads sport 1 Flamer, 1 LG or 1 PG usually, so they remain highly mobile and highly disposable (everything should be disposable in a Guard army).

I'd say run the GL alone in your squads, or add an Autocannon / heavy Bolter. I know most people hate heavy bolters, but they are slightly better than AC against infantry, so just don't shoot them at vehicles (I admit that AC are better against big beasties though)

Missile launchers are a good all rounder, either a blast for blobs or a nice instant-death Meq krak missile.

I would also recommend not gluing the weapon on the tripod and keeping the right side of the weapon (on the base) clear so you can go from lascannon to autocannon to heavy bolter with little to no hassle (right side clear for the lascannon/H.bolter chargepack/ammo box)

Autocannons and missile launchers are both good all-round weapons, lascannons are good if you're going to be facing a number of Monstrous Creatures or vehicles.

Also consider saving the autocannon parts and scratch-building Saber platforms (Valkyrie gunners, heavy weapon parts, and some spare junk for the platform should do it) for anti-aircraft if you have access to Aeronautica.

Autocannons unless you lack anti-AV14 elsewhere in the list. Mathematically they do everything (except multiwound T4 and AV14) better than all the other options.

For IG upgrade cost only vs armour. If we factor in IG carrier cost the AC still beats the LC, unless they are veterans, then LCs barely do better. (But who brings LC's on ACs? They're for Chimera's or Vendetta's fully of SW).



For IG upgrade cost only vs different toughness and saves. If we factor in IG carrier cost we get near enough the same results as described in vs armour.

Those charts only show efficiency, though. In the end, what is actually important is effectiveness, something which is deceptively lost in the above data.

With an infinite number of heavy weapons shooting at an infinite number of terminators, a lascannon will kill .56 per hit, the autocannon will kill .28 per two hits, and the heavy bolters .33 with three hits. Whatever the efficiency, the lascannon is more effective.

Which is what is really important here. If you've killed that terminator squad down to just one guy left with the rest of your army, a lascannon HWS will probably kill it, while an autocannon HWS is half as likely to achieve this task. Whether or not that terminator is killed may have a pretty big impact on the game, depending on your situation.

Efficiency is a good thing, but it is a poor substitute for effectiveness. Especially when you start getting into the real, concrete world of an actual 40k game, rather than an abstract world of infinite weapons shooting at infinite targets.

If you spent those 10 saved on additional autocannons, more guys, you get more dakka overall.
You're only paying for the AV14 threat, and it's not the best at that.

But that's my point. At some point, you have to come back down into the real. 10 points will not buy you another HWS. The resolution that you're looking at efficiency is way, way too fine for the coarseness of the system we're looking at.

Plus, it's not even always true. Even in the non-real world of infinite autocannon HWSs and infinite lascannon HWSs, a lascannon set is twice as effective against terminators for only a 50% price hike...

50% from the lascannon perspective, 100% from the AC perspective. If there were an infinite amount of anything then the cost of it wouldn't matter, but we're dealing with a finite amount of space.

Are you forgetting we don't just bring 1 LC or just 1 AC? We bring tons of the buggers.
If you had a list with 20 lascannons and you swapped them for 20 AC's (which isn't outside the realm of believability), you've just saved 200 points. They can be spent creating a credible threat for whatever it is you want to threaten which the AC cannot. The AC's would do just as well as the 20 LC's, except against AV14.

TanKoL wrote:
I Highly disagree with the Lascannon point of view (especially if paired with a PG), that makes the price go up to 85 pts a squad, that'w way too much for 10 imperial guards if you ask me
90% of the time, I field squads with only 1 special weapons and lasguns, sometimes (the 10%) I includ a Heavy Bolter for increased anti-personnal duties on a few squads that will defend home objectives

To me, guardsmen do 2 things well
1) Dying in droves
2) Throwing a lot of stuff at the opponent's face in the hope that some will hit

That's why I usually field 8 Infantry squads in 1500 games (2 platoons) and 10-12 in higher games (3 platoons), the squads sport 1 Flamer, 1 LG or 1 PG usually, so they remain highly mobile and highly disposable (everything should be disposable in a Guard army).

I'd say run the GL alone in your squads, or add an Autocannon / heavy Bolter. I know most people hate heavy bolters, but they are slightly better than AC against infantry, so just don't shoot them at vehicles (I admit that AC are better against big beasties though)

No like...stop giving advice like that.

It's so wrong.

You don't understand the idea of "Carrier price".

It's not "With a LC and PG, the squad costs now 85 pts" it's that the Lascannon and Plasmagun cost 35 pts with a 50pt carrier fee. Three 10 man squads kitted like that will cost 255 and will have 3 Lascannons, 3 Plasmaguns, and 21 protective wounds to shield those weapons.

You'll pay similar prices for the same amount of weapons on SWS and HWS, but have virtually no ablative wounds.

Blobs are a great place for killing power, because the weapons are relatively safe.

I used to run autocannons and flamers. Now I run Lascannons and Plasma.

Now I win tournaments.

That's the difference. Like I said previously; if anyone here is advocating for autocannons, ML's, Grenade Launchers, or HB's; you haven't tried the alternative. You don't know better. You just feel that what you are doing is handling the job well enough.

Lascannons and Melta/Plasma will kill whatever you point it at, and kill it dead.

Autocannons and Grenade launchers are barely a threat, and not worth the 50 point squads you tack them onto. You're paying 50 points for a handful of lasguns, and some average weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also; no one is accounting for BiD or Prescience.

Under those circumstances, Lascannons are the obvious choice.

And every guard commander should have Orders or Prescience assured.

Or you're doing it wrong.

Orders just make AC's better. 1.5 hits instead of 0.75.

 Blaggard wrote:

If you had a list with 20 lascannons and you swapped them for 20 AC's (which isn't outside the realm of believability), you've just saved 200 points. They can be spent creating a credible threat for whatever it is you want to threaten which the AC cannot. The AC's would do just as well as the 20 LC's, except against AV14.

But you'd have lost the sheer effectiveness of 20 lascannons.

And rarely do people find their list capable of taking 20 lascannons in a sensical manner.

It's more like 6-10 in a decent list. (Plus vendettas/Sabres/Vultures)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blaggard wrote:
Orders just make AC's better. 1.5 hits instead of 0.75.

Under Bring it Down Vs AV12 (very common armor value)

AC hits AV12 1.5 times

Glance/Pen .5 times

Explode .0416 times


Lascannon hits AV12 .75 times

Glance/Pen .5 times

Explode .125 times

So.............yeah. Almost triple the chance of an explode result seems pretty cool.

So if you want to shoot 5-6+ autocannons at an HP3 AV12 vehicle in order to waste it, have fun. That's a lot of shooting on one vehicle to just strip HP's.

Lascannon will do the same amount of HP stripping, with more of a chance to explode/pen (it pens 50% of the time, meaning more stunlocking, immobilizing, and weapon destroying)



But, you know. Lots of adamancy toward autocannons in this thread. Guess it's a hard conversion, AC to LC. Hard enough to keep people using the AC despite inferior killy-statistics.

Blaggard wrote:Are you forgetting we don't just bring 1 LC or just 1 AC? We bring tons of the buggers.

But not an infinite number, and that's really important here.

Things start to change and warp a lot once you get into the real world. There are a lot of new, uncontrolled variables that get dumped on you once actual lists get made, and actual minis hit table top. Depending on what you have in your list, you might not be able to take an extra HWS if you drop lascannons down to autocannons. Depending on how terrain is, you might not be able to have all three autocannons attacking the same target, while you might be able to have two attack the same one, making the concentrated effectiveness of the lascannon better.

In a world with infinite numbers against a non-adversarial opponent on a board with no terrain, on exactly the same mission, with controlled lists etc. etc. etc., things look one way, but as more variables come into play, they quickly start to look another. Tiny changes in efficiency look good in the world of the abstract, but effectiveness is what actually counts in the end. If efficiency doesn't always give you more net effectiveness, then there becomes a point where you need to stop caring as much about efficiency.

 Ailaros wrote:

Blaggard wrote:Are you forgetting we don't just bring 1 LC or just 1 AC? We bring tons of the buggers.

But not an infinite number, and that's really important here.

Things start to change and warp a lot once you get into the real world. There are a lot of new, uncontrolled variables that get dumped on you once actual lists get made, and actual minis hit table top. Depending on what you have in your list, you might not be able to take an extra HWS if you drop lascannons down to autocannons. Depending on how terrain is, you might not be able to have all three autocannons attacking the same target, while you might be able to have two attack the same one, making the concentrated effectiveness of the lascannon better.

In a world with infinite numbers against a non-adversarial opponent on a board with no terrain, on exactly the same mission, with controlled lists etc. etc. etc., things look one way, but as more variables come into play, they quickly start to look another. Tiny changes in efficiency look good in the world of the abstract, but effectiveness is what actually counts in the end. If efficiency doesn't always give you more net effectiveness, then there becomes a point where you need to stop caring as much about efficiency.

Is this still going on?

I think we've run through the stats enough times.

The idea that AC are worse than Las because you need more firepower to have the same effect is fairly nonsensical when you remember that an AC does have twice as much firepower as a las at a reduced price.

The Las is way better at some things (AV 13 and 14) as Good (AV 12) and not as good (AV 10 and 11) as an auto cannon. And the AC does it at a lower price. The las is better against MEQ's and TEQ's but not as good against hordes.

Seriously, this isn't all that difficult. I think everyone should take a chill pill and realize the las and ac both have their places.

ender502

I would recommend lascannons for heavy weapons teams if you have orders to back them up.

For upgrades to squads, it's all about synergy for me. No sense shooting a grenade at something and then firing anything that doesn't match what you shoot grenades at.

You can do well with mixing up your heavy weapons teams, such as 3 guys doing X, and 3 guys doing Y, but if you ever hit a battle where you wish you had more of X instead of Y, that's just something to work on later.

The idea that a lascannon costs twice as much as an auto-cannon is flawed.
If I could get 20 point lascannons, I'd take 80-90 of them in a 2000 point list.
To get either weapon, you are upgrading a unit you already spent points on.
A PiS costs 50 points, 60 with autocannon or 70 with lascannon.
That means in PiS, you could get 6 lascannon squads or 7 autocannons squads.

Is the lascannon better enough that you would give up a free autocannon and 8 free lasguns to have 6 lascannons instead of autocannons?
I'd say yes. If I need daka, I would FRFSRF with the masses of lasguns.

Of course, I'm now running all mobile vets so I ditched my lascannons in favor of demolitions and more melta guns, but that's a whole different approach.


-Matt

Instead of looking at very large sample averages, it is much more helpful to look at the actual probabilities of achieving a certain goal.

So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle? I'll only post results for ac and las.

AC vs.....p(3HP stripped).....p(explodes!).........p(total).......................... LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!) ........p(total)
AV10.......0..............................0.081597222.......0.081597222................AV10.......0.....................................0.138888889........0.138888889
AV11.......0..............................0.054783951.......0.054783951................AV11.......0.....................................0.111111111........0.111111111
AV12.......0..............................0.027584877.......0.027584877................AV12.......0.....................................0.083333333........0.083333333
AV13.......0..............................0.............................0......................................AV13.......0.....................................0.055555556........0.055555556
AV14.......0..............................0.............................0......................................AV14.......0.....................................0.027777778........0.027777778

Another good excercise is to look at the impact of weight of fire by asking the following questions:

What is the probability that two heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)................... LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.077537254............... 0.156536338........0.234073592........AV10.......0.....................................0.258487654........0.258487654
AV11.......0.03657979..................0.10656662..........0.14314641..........AV11.......0.....................................0.209876543........0.209876543
AV12.......0.012629561................0.054408828.......0.067038389........AV12.......0.....................................0.159722222........0.159722222
AV13.......0.002170139................0.............................0.002170139........AV13.......0.....................................0.108024691........0.108024691
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................A.V14......0.....................................0.054783951........0.054783951

What is the probability that three heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3 HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!)..........p(total).................. LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.240412153................0.22536063..........0.411593349...... AV10.......0.047089335................0.36147548..........0.391543175
AV11.......0.128044317................0.15551243..........0.263644264.......AV11.......0.028527949................0.297668038.......0.317704129
AV12.......0.049672929................0.080492843.......0.126167457....... AV12.......0.015625.......................0.22974537..........0.241780599
AV13.......0.009545262................0.............................0.009545262........AV13.......0.00735168................ 0.157578875........0.163772086
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................AV14.......0.002679184................0.081039952.......0.083502015

I won't analyze and interpret the results for you, but if you can read its quite easy to do. The graphs for these once you go up to 20+ heavy weapons is quite telling as well.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The idea that a lascannon costs twice as much as an auto-cannon is flawed.
If I could get 20 point lascannons, I'd take 80-90 of them in a 2000 point list.
To get either weapon, you are upgrading a unit you already spent points on.
A PiS costs 50 points, 60 with autocannon or 70 with lascannon.
That means in PiS, you could get 6 lascannon squads or 7 autocannons squads.

This is a very good point and also very true. A simple fact often ignored in most analyses.

 Barksdale wrote:

What is the probability that three heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3 HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!)..........p(total).................. LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.240412153................0.22536063..........0.411593349...... AV10.......0.047089335................0.36147548..........0.391543175
AV11.......0.128044317................0.15551243..........0.263644264.......AV11.......0.028527949................0.297668038.......0.317704129
AV12.......0.049672929................0.080492843.......0.126167457....... AV12.......0.015625.......................0.22974537..........0.241780599
AV13.......0.009545262................0.............................0.009545262........AV13.......0.00735168................ 0.157578875........0.163772086
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................AV14.......0.002679184................0.081039952.......0.083502015

So basically if you have 3+ Lascannons, they are superior.

 TheCaptain wrote:


So basically if you have 3+ Lascannons, they are superior.

Well, it depends. I said I wouldn't analyze, but here I go.

At HWT less than three, the lascannon is always superior (against vehicles). At three HWTs the autocannon has a slightly higher probability of destroying av10.. If you run the same model for more heavy weapons teams you will find that at six HWTs, the autocannon has a slightly greater probability of destroying av11. The av trend stops there, however. No number of autocannons will have a greater probability of destroying a 3HP av12 vehicle. Ofcourse, this analysis ignores several things, but it is a starting point for more specific analyses.

 Barksdale wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


So basically if you have 3+ Lascannons, they are superior.

Well, it depends. I said I wouldn't analyze, but here I go.

At HWT less than three, the lascannon is always superior (against vehicles). At three HWTs the autocannon has a slightly higher probability of destroying av10.. If you run the same model for more heavy weapons teams you will find that at six HWTs, the autocannon has a slightly greater probability of destroying av11. The av trend stops there, however. No number of autocannons will have a greater probability of destroying a 3HP av12 vehicle. Ofcourse, this analysis ignores several things, but it is a starting point for more specific analyses.

That is some interesting stuff. Could you show your basic math model? Also, what factors (that you are aware of) are being ignored in the analysis?

ender502

So After all this im kinda thinking of going ac for my infantry squads, a few 3 team heavy weapons squads of lc's. but really i guess im just gonna have to try it out myself. lots of very valid points though. thanks guys.

Another good point is other support fire. I'm always taking ~3 or more chimeras, so I'm getting a multilaser and heavy bolter to throw into the mix. With the lascannon plan, I use the multilaser and heavy bolter to go for the 3rd hull point vs AV10 and AV11.
No point in using the ~14% chance of Golden BB when other weapons that can't be upgraded can do a single hull point to finish it.
Basically, the chimeras more than cover the very marginal advantage that autocannons had at AV10 and AV11.

-Matt

If you feel like killing stuff over time with glances. Autocannons.

If you want to watch your opponent's important hard targets die turn 1. Lascannons.

Any foot IG player I feel should pack as many lascannons as possible, with a few autocannons thrown in if they have spare slots and points to spare. They just hit so much harder than autocannons, and after using them, I feel they're a lot more flexible. Autocannons are often giving people saves, and that really cuts down on killing power. Lascannons have the AP and S to kill pretty much anything. I've had games where I wrecked all of an opponent's vehicles by turn two, and then started plinking away space marines and termis stranded across the board with my lascannons with impunity just because they did their job so well turns 1 and 2. Autocannons would have never accomplished that. I've sniped MC's turn one by just pummeling them with Lascannons. Autocannons would've taken another turn or two, which might have let that big gribbly get stuck in and wreck my lines.So yeah, autocannons may be more efficient over time, but if you've only got a turn or two to make those shots count, it doesn't matter how efficient those autocannons are when they're getting overrun.

A claw hammer is a lot more efficient at hammering in nails than a sledgehammer for example. It also takes a while. A sledgehammer isn't as efficient, but I guarantee you if I hit that nail on the head with a sledgehammer, that nail is going in in one or two hits tops. Autocannons are your claw hammers, and lascannons are your sledgehammers. Whichever sounded better in that analogy will tell you which one you need more of in your army.

Plus, blowing up an opponent's favorite vehicle with the first lascannon shot of the game never gets old.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
If you feel like killing stuff over time with glances. Autocannons.

If you want to watch your opponent's important hard targets die turn 1. Lascannons.

Any foot IG player I feel should pack as many lascannons as possible, with a few autocannons thrown in if they have spare slots and points to spare. They just hit so much harder than autocannons, and after using them, I feel they're a lot more flexible. Autocannons are often giving people saves, and that really cuts down on killing power. Lascannons have the AP and S to kill pretty much anything. I've had games where I wrecked all of an opponent's vehicles by turn two, and then started plinking away space marines and termis stranded across the board with my lascannons with impunity just because they did their job so well turns 1 and 2. Autocannons would have never accomplished that. I've sniped MC's turn one by just pummeling them with Lascannons. Autocannons would've taken another turn or two, which might have let that big gribbly get stuck in and wreck my lines.So yeah, autocannons may be more efficient over time, but if you've only got a turn or two to make those shots count, it doesn't matter how efficient those autocannons are when they're getting overrun.

A claw hammer is a lot more efficient at hammering in nails than a sledgehammer for example. It also takes a while. A sledgehammer isn't as efficient, but I guarantee you if I hit that nail on the head with a sledgehammer, that nail is going in in one or two hits tops. Autocannons are your claw hammers, and lascannons are your sledgehammers. Whichever sounded better in that analogy will tell you which one you need more of in your army.

Plus, blowing up an opponent's favorite vehicle with the first lascannon shot of the game never gets old.

Both have their place. I'd far rather hav ethe AC's against DE rather than the Las...same goes against Orks, Guard and Eldar as well. SOB's...maybe. Marines and Chaos..Las Cannons. (Well actually, i'd prefer more plasma guns but that's a different debate)... Like a bunch of guard players, I don't look to guard manned las for my anti-vehicle work. I like battle cannons and vendettas and vets with meltas and stormies way better than crew served las. For HWS I prefer the ac.

ender502