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2014/09/04 02:16:59
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Sorry I've been out for a while. To make it up, here is a battle report using the new Dimachaeron. This was a practice game for Celesticon, a 1500 RTT in our area. In this matchup, I went up against Jamie and his dreaded Farsight-bomb. Now Jamie has not been able to beat me yet, but he did manage to make it into Team Zero Comp by beating one of their team members. I was actually the newest member of Team Zero Comp after beating Reece and his triple Imperial Knight Adamantine Lance army....and then the very next day, Jamie went over to Frontline Gaming and beat another team member to become the newest (and youngest) member. In any case, the last time we played, I was able to soundly beat his Farsight-bomb with Skyblight bugs. However, even that battle was a struggle and I didn't have very much left afterwards. Also, that was at 1850. Now we are playing at 1500 and I am not running Skyblight, but the Dimachaeron instead. So this should be interesting. Does Jamie finally have what it takes to beat down my bugs? We shall see....
7x Bodyguards - 3x2 Fusions, 3x2 Plasmas, Target Locks, 1 "Buffsuit" with a bunch of upgrades, lots of Marker Drones
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusions, Early Warning Override, Stimulant Injector
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusions, Early Warning Override, Stimulant Injector
Thank goodness I am going 1st! Against an alpha-strike army like Farsight Tau, I could potentially lose 2 or maybe even 3 flyrants had he gone 1st! We were practicing for Celesticon, which uses BAO missions. And in the BAOFAQ, a character (like Shadowsun) can confer his/her Infiltrate ability to the entire unit. Thus, had Jamie gone first, he would have infiltrated his bomb and with Monster Hunter, Ignore Cover and Twin-linked shooting, could have potentially killed 2 FMC's in 1 turn! Then use the markerdrones on the bomb to light up a 3rd FMC for his 2 riptides to shoot down. This is one of the reasons why I think the BAO should redact their FAQ rules change with regards to Infiltrate - giving Infiltrate to a shooty deathstar like the Farsight-bomb or Centurionstar just makes them too darn good. As if shooting wasn't strong enough in 7th!
Getting back on topic, my strategy is to win this game in the Movement phase. I will basically limit my opponent's ability to advance his guys and take control of the middle. Basically, it is the same strategy I have been using ever since 5th Edition - my strategy of Positional Dominance. In an objectives-based scenario, you have the advantage if you can control the movement of your opponent. You play aggressively, box him in to limit his movement, and while he is busy dealing with your "distraction" units, you swarm the objectives. Thus, on Turn 5, you are already entrenched onto those objectives and his units are out of position, even if he does manage to take out all of your "distraction" units.
Unfortunately, I lost my notes with regards to the Maelstrom objectives and my psychic powers so I will only go over them briefly. Basically, I get 2 Catalysts and some other powers for my flyrants.
I deploy aggressively forwards, with the Malanthrope in the bastion. Rippers and mawloc in reserves to deepstrike.
Jamie infiltrates his bomb into area terrain (played the hill as 5+ cover + difficult terrain). His kroots will be walking in from his board edge.
I push my flyrants aggressively forwards. The rest of my army advances, with the Malanthrope disembarking from the bastion.
I make a mistake here. Should have trailed with my Warlord flyrant, but instead, I have him positioned forwards. Rear flyrant casts Catalyst on the Dimachaeron. Forwards flyrant casts Catalyst on my Warlord....and fails! Doh!!!
Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
Alas, 36 twin-linked S6 shots manages to take out only 3 measley drones.
Tau 1
Riptides jockey for better shooting positions. They both pass their nova charges.
Farsight and his unit barely moves. He opts to go Monster Hunter instead of Stubborn for his Puretide Neurochip.
He then focuses the entire bomb onto my Warlord and takes him down, nabbing both First Blood and Slay the Warlord thanks to the lack of FNP on my Warlord and the fact that he was within plasma double-shot range. Should have trailed with my Warlord instead.
Riptides go after my gargoyles but manage only to kill 4.
Tyranids 2
2 rippers come in. 1 unit deepstrikes onto my opponent's objective (which is also one of the Maelstrom objectives this turn).
I learned my lesson from our last game. I need to kill his buffsuit pronto! The game becomes just so much easier after that. First I attempt to kill him with my mawloc. However, fortunately for my opponent, my mawloc scatters, though I do manage to kill 2 suits with him.
Ok, now to plan B. Actually, plan B was my plan A all along. I swoop my flyrant across so that his buffsuit (the suit in black) is the closest model to it. Heh heh....I am going to do evil things to him.
The rest of my army advances. Jamie then intercepts with his riptides and takes off 2 Wounds from my mawloc.
This turn, I remember to use my egrubs. After shooting, his bomb is decimated. He's got both characters still, but he loses another 2 suits - including the most important one, his buffsuit - as well as most of his markerdrones.
Tau 2
Both kroots come in. Jamie goes after my rippers on his Maelstrom objective. Big mistake, buddy.
40 shots later and my rippers are still standing.
The bomb moves away. Farsight actually splits off from the unit to go after my mawloc. He also moves 1 riptide towards my mawloc as well.
The bomb then shoots at my mawloc and take him down to 1W remaining. Farsight then charges....
....and finishes him off.
Tyranids 3
My last unit of rippers come in.
So now I have a lot of options in terms of target. I could go after the weakened bomb or I could go after Farsight by himself.....
....however, the temptation is just too great. I go after his troops.
Meanwhile, my Dimachaeron (not done yet, a work-in-progress) is slowly trudging forwards. Hey! Hammer & Anvil is the worst deployment type for a ground Tyranid force! But while he is advancing, the rest of my army is swarming the objectives.
After 2 template weapons and 12 devourer shots onto 2 tightly bunched-up units of kroots, I take them all out! Farsight can die another day.
Tau 3
The Tau prepare to deal with the threats at their doorsteps. Farsight rejoins his unit.
That is way too much firepower for a Tyranid MC out in the open without FNP to deal with!
The Tau then jump away from my gargoyles in the Assault phase.
Tyranids 4
However, they (the Farsight-bomb) won't be able to get away. Flyrants are gliding, but it doesn't matter because his bomb will be locked in combat and I've got Catalyst on my flyrants.
Malanthrope gets out of LOS of his riptides and also closer to an objective.
Shooting is pathetic. Both flyrants and the gargoyles manage to take off maybe 1W from the bomb.
Assault is equally pathetic as my gargoyles fail to kill anything and I lose 6 gargoyles in return. Bah!
Tau 4
Black riptide finally starts heading towards my deployment zone. Redtide needs to stay behind because of the objective.
Shooting does absolutely zilch as my rippers pass their cover saves.
In combat, we both whiff. He kills 1 gargoyles and I kill none. I believe the bomb may have been blinded (reduced to WS1) by my gargoyles last turn.
Tyranids 5
I actually assault in with both flyrants this turn. However, I have some major whiffage and fail to cause a single wound (well, maybe 1W to Farsight in a challenge)! In turn, the bomb kills another 2 gargoyles.
Rippers continue to maneuver around objectives.
Tau 5
Riptide is still too far away to assault my rippers. He fires both tides into them but I make my cover saves thanks to 2+ cover from the Malanthrope.
Finally, I wipe out all the bodyguards and break the unit. However, I fail to catch Farsight in a sweeping advance.
The game continues onto Turn 6.
Tyranids 6
Malanthrope goes to support the rippers.
Flyrants shoot down both Farsight and Shadowsun, finally giving me Slay the Warlord.
Tau 6
In a last hurrah, his riptide tries to wrestle the 3-pt objective away from my rippers but he is only able to kill 1 in assault (and none with shooting).
Game ends.
Jamies has his riptide on a 3-pt objective. I've got the 3-pt, 2-pt, 2-pt and 1-pt objectives. I take the Scouring for 4-pts. I also handily win the Maelstrom secondary objectives for 3-pts. Finally, Jamie takes Warlord, First Blood (my Warlord) and Linebreaker (his riptide). I take Warlord (Shadowsun) and Linebreaker (my rippers and flyrants). Tyranids win it 9-3.
I did what I came here to do. I threw my flyrants at my opponent and kept him locked in his deployment zone (or near it). While he was busy fending them off, the rest of my army slowly made its way onto the objectives. I also started accumulating those Maelstrom points while restricting my opponent's ability to do so by boxing him in. That is my strategy of Positional Dominance. I did make a couple of mistakes early on, but my experience in dealing with deathstar armies overshadowed my opponent's experience in dealing with my army. That, plus my army going first, led to a Tyranid victory. I took this one today, but as my opponent gains more and more experience (he's been playing for about 1/2 year only), these victories are going to be harder and harder to come by. In any case, this was a good experience. The only question remaining is whether I want to take my bugs to Celesticon. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Thanks for reading!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 03:43:08
I take him for the coolness factor. However, I did have 1 game against Space Wolves where he slaughtered 4 out of 6 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolf Cavalry. That was almost 900-pts of units that he single-handedly took out. Now that game might be a 1 in 10 event, but you just live for that moment with your dimachaerons.
Iechine wrote: I've been running them the past month or so in tourny practice games against the current bike lists/drop pods/hard counters and its been going well. You set up your flight patterns in advance and kill of troops, which is the basic premise. The Carnifexes are not critical and are the preferred bullet magnet, which a Knight would tank better.
I gave it some thought and I believe that you're right. I think the movement and the ability to soak a great deal more damage, as well as actually being a bullet magnet, merits the model. So I set out today to convert a Tyranid Knight. I pretty much winged it, with a giant assist from a Tervigon kit, and this is what I came up with. It's all still very WIP of course, with a bunch of detail yet to be added for the shoulders that I will be using as it's "brain" for the warp field invul save (stealing both the idea and execution from this gentleman here):
Also worth noting that the guy who came up with this came up with a very interesting fluff justification for the model, in addition to the idea of the mind giving the invulnerable save like the zoanthropes do. You can find the full backstory here:
The notable excerpt that I enjoyed as the fluff justification for why it will sometimes attack its own kind:
"But we have also heard reports of this creature attacking its own kind. We assume the Hive Mind sacrificed total control over its minion in order to achieve a hyper aggressive assault-creature. The gestalt is aware of this and other tyranid organisms keep their distance to the raging hive colossus. "
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 04:16:52
2014/09/04 04:06:30
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
SHUPPET wrote: TWC thinking they can throw down with the Dima, please >>
I know, right?
What's really cool, at least to me, is that the dimas bring back the fear and respectability to assault nids, even if they do die most of the time before they can even make it into combat. I swear, even riptides were kicking my bug's asses before the dima, which was why I no longer played assault bugs before the dima. Now, wait til I catch one of those wraithknights or riptides. LOL!!!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 04:07:46
jy2 wrote: Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
How does that work? Even if it is night fighting, it is just a 4+ cover. They aren't stealth suites.
2014/09/04 04:08:29
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
jy2 wrote: Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
How does that work? Even if it is night fighting, it is just a 4+ cover. They aren't stealth suites.
Shadowsun gives the entire unit Stealth & Shrouded because she has on stealth suit armor.
jy2 wrote: Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
How does that work? Even if it is night fighting, it is just a 4+ cover. They aren't stealth suites.
Shadowsun gives the entire unit Stealth & Shrouded because she has on stealth suit armor.
That is indeed the case. I guess it hasn't ever mattered in my games vs farsight bomb, because I've never played that infiltrate can confer like that, and for some reason the Tau players I see are afraid to deep strike into terrain.
2014/09/04 04:46:52
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Guys, tomorrow I am going to show you how to play against Imperial Knights. I am going up against a 3 Knight Adamantine Lance formation and I will show you why we will rock them.
jy2 wrote: Guys, tomorrow I am going to show you how to play against Imperial Knights. I am going up against a 3 Knight Adamantine Lance formation and I will show you why we will rock them.
Let slip the Dimas of war! Heh, heh....
Fully prepared for the Awesome!
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/09/04 17:21:40
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: Might be worth mentioning that any Tyrant configuration won't be striking first against anyone sensible opponent, as all he has to do is see you are running a decked out melee Flyrant and stick to area terrain to force the Tyrant to hit last. He still may come out on top however.
Not always. If something is cowering in area terrain, all you need to do is throw gaunts of any sort at them in sufficient quantities to keep them locked up for a turn. Once tied up, any further assaults made against that unit can use their full initiative (see page 55 in the main rule book). Since the Tyrant has to spend a turn on the ground before he can charge anyway, he generally can take advantage of this and thus keep his initative.
Anyway, here's the list I eventually settled on for this week's league and a bit of a mini-battle report for each round.
Basically this was what I came up with to try to keep myself TAC using input from this thread (very much appreciated!). The Tyrant is chiefly to dispose of MCs but it can still contribute a little bit against vehicles with the Electroshock Grubs, while the Crone covers anti-air and anti-mech. The Hormagaunts in turn serve as mobile tarpits so the Tyrant and Crone can go about their business unopposed (Gargoyles would probably have been better, but the Hormagaunts make the list Battle Forged and are 10 points cheaper per brood which basically pays for the Tyrant's upgrades).
Game 1: Centurion Spam
Tyrant Powers: Dominion, Catalyst, Warp Blast (inexplicably got these every game...)
Tyrant Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology
Opposing List: 3x Assault Centurions with Melta Guns (proxied by Grav Centurions - trying them out)
1x Drop Pod (Space Wolves)
3x Devastator Centurions with Grav Cannons/Grav Amps, 1x Omni-scope (Warlord Sergeant - Got the one-use reroll shooting dice trait from the space marine book)
Mission: Capture the objectives in the middle of the table (3x Objectives, spread across the center line - standard First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker secondary objectives).
Initiative: Tyranids
This game was actually very close, but also not really that bloody until later turns. On the first turn the two flying monsters leapt into the air and Tyrant cast Catalyst on himself and the Hive Crone and Dominion. The marines then proceeded to lite up the Hive Crone and burned their reroll to try to bring it down. Initially they actually did manage to kill it with a failed grounding check, but I forgot to make my feel no pain rolls so it came back next turn (he graciously allowed me to make the forgotten rolls, giving it back 3 out of 5 wounds). The Assault Centurions arrived in their drop pod and shot up the Tyrant a bit, but failed to hit him and ended up tarpitted by the Hormagaunts for three rounds of combat before meeting their end in the form of one really angry Hive Tyrant (he rolled 3 's to wound on the turn he charged, killing the entire squad at once). The Grav Centurions eventually killed the Hive Crone, but otherwise did nothing other than eat vector strikes all game and kill a handful of Hormagaunts.
End result: Tyranid Victory - 3 points for the central objective and 1 point for First Blood (the assault centurions)
Game 2: Librarius
Tyrant Powers: Dominion, Catalyst, Warp Blast
Tyrant Warlord Trait: Synaptic Linchpin
Opposing List: 1x Mephiston (Warlord)
Powers: Smite, Iron Arm, Endurance 1x Tigerius
Powers: Psychic Shriek, Invisibility (rest unknown) 1x Liberian
Powers: unknown (was used mainly as a battery for the other two)
Mission: Table your opponent. If neither side is tabled, the side with the most points left on the table wins. (no secondary points)
Initiative: Tyranids
This mission was not really much fun and was over pretty quickly due to the low amount of models being used each turn. Basically, all I had to do was hide all my gaunts on one side of the table and just dive bomb the Liberian super-squad all game with the Hive Crone. Needless to say, the Crone did extremely well. On the second turn it snatched up Tigerius with its vector strike and more or less won the game by itself, since it took away invisibility and earned a large chunk of points. My poor opponent only managed to kill little over one brood of Hormagaunts before the game ended and probably would have been tabled had the game gone on.
End result: Tyranid Victory - ~435 points remaining at the end of the game vs ~340 points remaining.
Game 3: Blood Bath
Tyrant Powers: Dominion, Catalyst, Warp Blast
Tyrant Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology
Opposing List: 1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with various Gifts
1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with various Gifts
1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with various Gifts
1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with Grimoire of True Names (Hatred Warlord Trait)
Mission: Place 4 Objectives, 2 in each deployment zone. Objectives in the enemy's deployment zone are worth 2 points. Objectives in your own deployment zone are worth 1 point. The player with the most points at the end of the game wins. (First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker secondary objectives).
Initiative: Daemons (seized)
This one was a bit of a disaster, as the opposing army was perfectly suited towards countering mine (lots of attacks, high speed, high toughness, good invul saves, everything but the book-barer had a bonesword equivalent). First couple turns the Haralds mowed down my Hormagaunts and basically got hit with Vector Strikes and templates for the rest of the game. Sadly, his dice were somewhat hot so I failed to really inflict any damage and I ended up with both of my monstrous creatures getting grounded (Tyrant from a Perils while trying to manifest Warp Blast and the Crone from some Pink Horrors that were created by the Warp Storm table). The Tyrant got ganged up on by three Heralds and torn asunder, leaving me with just the Crone at turn 5 when we called it.
End result: Daemon Victory - 5 points from objectives, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker.
2014/09/04 18:20:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Iechine wrote: I've been running them the past month or so in tourny practice games against the current bike lists/drop pods/hard counters and its been going well. You set up your flight patterns in advance and kill of troops, which is the basic premise. The Carnifexes are not critical and are the preferred bullet magnet, which a Knight would tank better.
I gave it some thought and I believe that you're right. I think the movement and the ability to soak a great deal more damage, as well as actually being a bullet magnet, merits the model. So I set out today to convert a Tyranid Knight. I pretty much winged it, with a giant assist from a Tervigon kit, and this is what I came up with. It's all still very WIP of course, with a bunch of detail yet to be added for the shoulders that I will be using as it's "brain" for the warp field invul save (stealing both the idea and execution from this gentleman here):
Also worth noting that the guy who came up with this came up with a very interesting fluff justification for the model, in addition to the idea of the mind giving the invulnerable save like the zoanthropes do. You can find the full backstory here:
The notable excerpt that I enjoyed as the fluff justification for why it will sometimes attack its own kind:
"But we have also heard reports of this creature attacking its own kind. We assume the Hive Mind sacrificed total control over its minion in order to achieve a hyper aggressive assault-creature. The gestalt is aware of this and other tyranid organisms keep their distance to the raging hive colossus. "
Cool conversion. Now you just need 2 more so you can run the Adamantine Lance formation! I may have to try building one of these... I like the other guy's fluff that you linked too.
For an allied detachment of a second Nid force, do you really only need to take 1 hq and 1 troop? Or is it 1 hq and 2 troops?
Also, I play Tau as well and am interested if most Farsight Bomb lists are using Marker Drones in the bomb instead of gun drones? Marker Drones can't move in order to fire than marker lights right?
6400 Pts 4300 Pts 3200 Pts 2600 Pts
3080 Pts 30k 2460 Pts AoS Chaos Grand Alliance
2680 Pts AoS Sylvaneth
2014/09/06 08:51:46
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Noctem wrote: For an allied detachment of a second Nid force, do you really only need to take 1 hq and 1 troop? Or is it 1 hq and 2 troops?
Also, I play Tau as well and am interested if most Farsight Bomb lists are using Marker Drones in the bomb instead of gun drones? Marker Drones can't move in order to fire than marker lights right?
1 HQ & 2 Troops, because it is a second combined arms detachment rather than an Allied one (can't ally with yourself). You can take as many CAD as you like.
2014/09/06 09:06:30
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Noctem wrote: For an allied detachment of a second Nid force, do you really only need to take 1 hq and 1 troop? Or is it 1 hq and 2 troops?
Also, I play Tau as well and am interested if most Farsight Bomb lists are using Marker Drones in the bomb instead of gun drones? Marker Drones can't move in order to fire than marker lights right?
1 HQ & 2 Troops, because it is a second combined arms detachment rather than an Allied one (can't ally with yourself). You can take as many CAD as you like.
That is how the rulebook defines it, but I doubt very many people actually play it that way. Most Tourneys, and gaming clubs have houseruled it so that you can ally yourself, and only take one CAD. JY2 plays by the BAO rules which work that way: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/
It slightly reduces the Spam portion of list building.
2014/09/06 13:47:45
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Some of those Unbound lists are actually pretty brutal, if not unbalanced. Props to you for actually bringing a bound list.
Thanks for the props, though to be fair it wasn't really too big of a sacrifice. So far, the unbound lists have generally lost their games against a bound army and do average against other unbound armies. I can't give a definitive explanation as to why, but I think it has to do with how unbound tends to encourage a lower body count "elite" army made up of "toy"-type units opposed to the "balanced" approach a bound army enforces. From experiences prior to and including the 500 point league, a typical battle forged list usually outnumbers the unbound list (sometimes severely) and thus has more options available to achieve victory beyond wiping the enemy out (which has been the typical result of unbound vs unbound, one army usually dies horribly).
My money would have been on the dual dakka flyrant lists. IMO, that was the list best suited for these scenarios.
One of my buddies brought 2x Dakka Tyrants the week prior actually. It really struggled against the 2x Wraithknight list (neither side was able to kill the other and the Wraithknights were on the ground on objectives) but otherwise did well with the other unbound lists. My main concern with running such a list outside of WYSIWYG (I only have one Dakka Flyrant) was body count. I'm just really uncomfortable with only 2 models on the table and having the extra gaunts gives the opponent something else to shoot at (or extra objective grabbers if they opt to ignore them).
Definitely would have liked having Devourers against that last list though. The Heralds just ate up all my 1-shot weapons without breaking stride...
My finished Barbed Hierodule. Next up is my Hierophant
Very nice work! Looking forward to seeing that scheme on a Hierophant (nothing against the Hierodule, but it always makes me think of an angry lionfish with legs).
I would have liked to see how the Dima went again Knights
I can't see that going well. Even with all of its attacks (no rampage bonus attacks, since it would most likely be a 1v1), it needs 5's to glance on the turn it charges and after that (assuming it survives the return blows) will only glance on a 6...
Personally, I'd kinda like to see someone try the Dimachareon in a stealer-shock list with maybe a Malanthrope or two sprinkled in and whatever other support units they fancied. The biggest problem I see with the Dima in most of the games I have read with one in them is that they don't get very good saturation from other monstrous creatures since they are so much more threatening in assault and as such are a higher priority to disable. In a stealer-shock list, one basically trades T6 saturation for more threat saturation, since nobody wants Genestealers in assault with them either and directing fire against one threat simply allows the rest a turn to freely get closer. Malanthropes would probably be the key to making such a list work though, as they attract the same sort of fire as both units and significantly enhance the durability of both as they crawl forward.
Edit: Just for giggles, here's a quickly thrown together hypothetical list:
Basically has a token Tyrant for air defense and the rest is focused on the Stealers and Dimas. Probably not tournament-grade competitive, but would be fun to play I think (if nothing else, everything is LD10 and more or less unconcerned with synapse loss).
Edit #2 Fixed a math error with above list... Had one Tyrant too many for the point bracket.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/09/06 14:33:57
2014/09/06 15:01:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
On the other hand however, they would be much more likely to get their combat, and will be doing much more against Knights than most of the rest of what we have.
I like your list btw. Although it pretty much folds to anything with a half decent amount of AV.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/09/06 16:10:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Some of those Unbound lists are actually pretty brutal, if not unbalanced. Props to you for actually bringing a bound list.
Thanks for the props, though to be fair it wasn't really too big of a sacrifice. So far, the unbound lists have generally lost their games against a bound army and do average against other unbound armies. I can't give a definitive explanation as to why, but I think it has to do with how unbound tends to encourage a lower body count "elite" army made up of "toy"-type units opposed to the "balanced" approach a bound army enforces. From experiences prior to and including the 500 point league, a typical battle forged list usually outnumbers the unbound list (sometimes severely) and thus has more options available to achieve victory beyond wiping the enemy out (which has been the typical result of unbound vs unbound, one army usually dies horribly).
It would easily explain it if the tournament was running objectives or anything that encourages multiple scoring units.
My money would have been on the dual dakka flyrant lists. IMO, that was the list best suited for these scenarios.
One of my buddies brought 2x Dakka Tyrants the week prior actually. It really struggled against the 2x Wraithknight list (neither side was able to kill the other and the Wraithknights were on the ground on objectives) but otherwise did well with the other unbound lists. My main concern with running such a list outside of WYSIWYG (I only have one Dakka Flyrant) was body count. I'm just really uncomfortable with only 2 models on the table and having the extra gaunts gives the opponent something else to shoot at (or extra objective grabbers if they opt to ignore them).
Definitely would have liked having Devourers against that last list though. The Heralds just ate up all my 1-shot weapons without breaking stride...
Well, at 500-pts, you could have given both flyrants toxin sacs to help out against those knights. But if you don't have it, then you don't have it.
SHUPPET wrote: On the other hand however, they would be much more likely to get their combat, and will be doing much more against Knights than most of the rest of what we have.
True enough. I guess my main point was just a Knight isn't the Dimachareon's most ideal match-up, so one probably shouldn't expect too much out of it.
I like your list btw. Although it pretty much folds to anything with a half decent amount of AV.
I'd agree 100% in 5th, but in 7th I'm not entirely sure. With hull points and the changes to hitting vehicles in melee, Genestealers should have no problem shredding their way through most vehicles (both AV10 and AV11 rear armor, since a 6 for them automatically goes from a 10 to 11) and they have the Dimas for back-up against higher AV.
To be fair though, I am admittedly a little biased. The main mechanized force I've had to fight here is my brother's craftworld Eldar and some Dark Eldar. In most cases I've wrecked more vehicles by assaulting them with AG Hormagaunts or Gargoyles than I have by shooting, chiefly due to the jink rule and the low rate of fire of anything not-a-brainleech-devourer.
It would easily explain it if the tournament was running objectives or anything that encourages multiple scoring units.
So far we have mostly just used the book missions (normal and Maelstrom), with an occasional homebrew mission from the league organizer.
Could you maybe do a couple test games with unbound and see what you can do with it? Would be interesting to see how unbound lists fair against top-tier competitive bound lists.
jy2 wrote: Well, at 500-pts, you could have given both flyrants toxin sacs to help out against those knights. But if you don't have it, then you don't have it.
I think he probably did have toxin sacs on them to make up the last few points (I wasn't there for the first week). Still, he was somewhat stuck in the air in order to avoid getting ID'ed by the Heavy Wraithcannons, I imagine he didn't want to risk loosing his Tyrants too soon and was planning on contesting on the last turn (didn't hear how exactly it ended, other than he lost). While playtesting my own list with my brother, I was able to just tarpit the things with gaunts so the Tyrant could swap flight modes in peace and then charge in complete safely.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/06 16:56:03
2014/09/06 22:52:33
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Basically has a token Tyrant for air defense and the rest is focused on the Stealers and Dimas. Probably not tournament-grade competitive, but would be fun to play I think (if nothing else, everything is LD10 and more or less unconcerned with synapse loss).
Edit #2 Fixed a math error with above list... Had one Tyrant too many for the point bracket.
I like this list a lot, and not just because it's trying to prove that assault isn't dead. But the timing of the inevitable turn 2 assaults from the infiltrating stealers might be too far advanced from the rest of the force, leading to easier target priority. Part of me thinks that stealers would work best in a turn 2 Maximum Threat Overload list. That being said, it's not often that 3 Dimas will be able to get to combat relatively unmolested, and with the support of the Malanthropes you can almost believe that it's possible.
2014/09/07 16:15:48
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Spoiler:
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
Loving that list. Please if you have the chance make a batrep.
I did plan to take photos for proper batreps, but I got there and realized they planned to play 2 Hour rounds. Ugh! I brought a high model count list, and I'm not sure my first 2 opponents had ever played 'nids before in the current codex, so it took a lot of rules explaining.
Game one
Spoiler:
It was a book Maelstrom mission (the one where you start with 6 cards). Deployment was vanguard. My opponent was an IG/Grey Knights/ Assassins player. A bunch of units I had never seen on the table. He had a Vindicaire Assassin with 2 Laser Monkeys, and some other Las cannons were in an imperial bunker that my list had 0 chance of ever popping. It didn't do much against me. Killed a few gants.
His Callidus Assassin infiltrated next to my biovores. She killed 2 gants, and put a wound on a biovore. It also screwed up my first reserve roll for a Mawloc, but I rolled a 6 anways so it didn't matter. I assaulted her with 3 Shrikes, and Piled a ton of wounds on her, but she made all but one of her 4++ saves, and then hit an run. On turn 3, a few Devil gaunt blew her out of existence.
His Grey Knights grand master deep struck on turn one along with a large unit of Strike Guard. He scattered, but rerolled it, and scattered even further. That ended up not mattering because he could run and shoot (might have come from warlord trait). His squad killed 6 Gargoyles, and 8 Gants. Then turn 2, I was planning to soften him up with shooting, and then assault him. To that end I move my Gargoyles, one unit of Shrikes, One unit of Termagants, and Swarmlord and his unit all into position to assault him. The problem is, after shooting at him, I took 1 wound of his HQ, and killed 6 Strike Guard, and he failed his leadership (Because of SitW) and ran away making my assault difficult. My Gaunts failed a 11" charge. My Gargoyles failed a 6" charge, and so I didn't bother sending in any other unit. On his 2, he killed the rest of my gargoyles. On my turn 3, I did the same thing, moving Swarmlord, Termagants, and Shrikes to assault him, but after shooting into him, I killed another 2-3 Strike Guard, and he failed his leadership and ran out of assault range. Turn 4, he split off his Grand master from his 2 remainiing Strike Guard, and I had a card to "Kill a unit in assault', and wanted to get warlord, so I moved to assault his Grand Master (Down 1 wound because of It will not die) with Poison Hormagants that had perferred enemy (from swarmlord). I sent 2 Shrikes (one BS + LW) against his last 2 Strike guard. Both units made their assault. The Shrikes whiffed. (5 1&2's for the BS+LW one to hit). The Hormagants made him take 22 saves. But he made all 22 2+'s so I failed to get warlord or score D3 for units in assault.
He also had a platoon of Guard with a Commisar in an Imperial Defense line. My Mawlocs and biovores killed them easily. The commisar died to my Mawloc in assault on turn 4. His platoon did do some work. On turn 3 they managed to kill 5 Termagants on my left flank, and I was an idiot and let them get out of synapse (because I ran Shrikes to score an objective). They failed their leadership, and because of vanguard ran off the table.
Lastly he had a deathstrike. It was in the back corner, and fired turn 2. It did work. 3 Shrikes, a Venomthrope, 10 Termagants, and 6 Gargoyles, and a Tyrant Guard died.
Our game ended turn 4, because we were playing 2 hour! rounds. I won 14 Points to 4 Points.
Game 2:
Spoiler:
It was Maelstrom (the one where you score each other's cards). Dawn of War deployment, and my opponent was a pretty good Eldar / Dark Eldar list. He went on to take 2nd overall. I had really, really bad dice this game, and was very frustrated by it.
He had 2 wave serpents. Turn 1 they took out one Venom, and put a wound on the other. Turn 2 they finished off the venom and killed some Gargoyles. The entire game I shot Hive guard at them. On turn 4, I charged one with Hive guard. I did 0 hull points until the charge when I did take a single hull point. I was upset at the failure of my Hive guard to roll. They were in my list to kill wave serpents, and they failed so big. Turn 3 I gave furious charge to my Hormagants, and they failed an 8" charge with fleet to deal with one. Turn 2, I gave furious charge to a unit of Shrikes, and failed a 6" charge on one.
He had a giant Dark Eldar Forgeworld Skimmer. It looked like a catamaran. It shot 12 S7 AP2 shots at BS4, and was open topped with 6 Wraith guard and his warlord in it. Every turn he shot it into my Warlord. Turn 4, he finally finished Swarmlord and his unit off.
He had a venom. It did quite a bit of damage to my gargoyles, but I got a turn 3 charge on him with swarmlord, and popped it.
He dumped 10 Dire Avengers with a psycher of some sort (spirit seer?) out of a wave serpent. They lit up my gargoyles, but turn 3, I lit them up in return with a full squad of Termagants, Killing 9 of them, and then charged with Shrikes and gargoyles, and finished them off easily.
He dumped 5 fire dragons out of his other wave serpent. They ID'd my Shrikes which had tried to charge the serpent and failed last turn. I shot a squad of Termagants into them. I did 12 wounds but he made 11 saves. So I charged my gants into him. His first round of combat killed 6 gaunts! and I killed only 1 Fire Dragon. However, they were tarpit for the rest of the game.
He had 2 artillery squads. I kept pinning one, but the other was mopping up bunches of gribbles. He also had a back field Shooting S5 AP:3 Assault 2 unit. The biovores dealt with those.
He was committed to playing a gunline so by turn two I was leading 6 to 1 in the mission. But turn 3-4 I couldn't score anything, and turn 4 he jumped out and Scored 3 Objectives, and 2 cards that got him D3 points (Warlord, and Kill a unit in shooting). So it was 6 -9. On his turn 5 he scored 2 more points, but I wasn't able to play my turn 5 (even though the only hope I had to score was 1 for warlord if my biovores killed his farseer in assault. We both had linebreaker, and he had 1st blood so the final score was 7-11.
I had not delusions that I could table this army, but I felt like I could have out scored it, because I participated in the movement phase while he didn't except to put his Venom and serpents in range to fire their guns. The problem was the Hive Guard being utterly useless.
Game 3:
Spoiler:
It was Maelstrom where you draw one card for each objective you control. I was playing against an opponent that I play often, and I knew his weaknesses well. However, he was running CSM with lots of Helbrute formations. He had 9 armor 12-12-10 walkers. On the plus side 5 of those walkers were in 1 unit, and he is a slow player, so that prevented him from being able to table me.
Turn 1 and 2 I killed all of his cultists. Turn 3 I killed a group of marines and his warlord (Chaos Librarian?). I took 2 hull points off of one Helbrute and charged with a unit of shrikes to finish him off. I whiffed. He whiffed. His turn 4. He tried to cast a couple of powers. He cast some nova damage dealing spell with only one success. He had two dice left, and I asked him what he was going to cast with those (not expecting an answer). He told me he would cast Shrouding. So I denied the nova. I didn't really worry about Shrouding, because I had 20 poison Hormagants to kill the marines, and didn't care about it. In his assault phase when I rolled my Shrikes to hit vs his injured helbrute. He announced that because they were within 12" of his warlord they could only be hit on 6's. I knew this was BS, and so I said "Show me the rule". At this point he handed me the invisibility psychic card. I told him "You have to cast this psychic power for it to haven an effect". He said he did cast it. I knew he hadn't, but I didn't remember what his last spell was, only that he cast it on two dice with one success, and that it wasn't invis. I was pretty pissed that he wanted to play it this way against me, but I was up 9-0 at this point so I let him do it. He killed 2 Shrikes, and I failed to strip the last hull point.
However in Assault against his marines he told me that because they were within 12" of his warlord, I only hit on 6's. I told him "That isn't how invisibility works", and then I realized what had happened. He cast Shrouding, and had it confused with invisibility. When I explained to him how those two spells worked, he accepted my explanation, and let me hit on 4's as I should. I killed his marines and warlord.
I don't think he was intentionally Cheating. I really don't think he had ever used Divination powers before this Tourney, but his judgement in believing that there would be such a power as invisibility that is conferred to all units in 12" left me with a "What were you thinking!" moment.
His 5 man helbrute squad worked its way through my gargoyles, and then gants, and then venom and biovores. All this time the number of attacks for helbrutes were arbitrarily changing between 2 and 4. I didn't argue because he was paying not attention to scoring points. After the Tourney I talked to him and realized that he kept getting rage and applying it in close combat even when it wasn't the charge or when he multi-assaulted. I can't believe helbrutes have 2 attacks base. That unit seems like garbage. They killed about twice as many gants as they should have, but it didn't really matter once.
I sent swarmlord into a deep striking helbrute with furious charge, and did 2 hullpoints, but failed to finish it, which left me in range of 2 others to charge in and help out. This combat lasted to the end of the game, and I lost 2 Tyrant guard, and killed a helbrute and put a wound on another.
One final note. The Hive Guard got preferred enemy most of the game. They did 4 hull points to Helbrutes, and 2 hull points to a rhino.
The final score was 14-2 at the end of 4. I won huge.
Final Result
Spoiler:
I ended up in a 3 way tie for 3rd in the tourney (all 3 had 35 battle points). It was kinda awesome because the other 2 guys tied with me were 2 guys from my gaming group that got a ride with me on our way to the tourney. I thought the tie breaker was supposed to be kill points which would have put me in 3rd above the other two that I was tied with, but instead they decided to go with strength of schedule then kill points. I beat two 1-2 opponents, and lost to a 2-1 opponent. Both of the other guys tied for 3rd beat two 1-2 opponents, and lost to a 3-0 opponent. So I ended up 5th out of 16.
The tourney Winner was a Necron net list (2 command barges, 3 Annihilation barges, 4 Flying crescent rolls). Prior to the start, it was obvious who the top 2 list would be. The Necron net list, and the Eldar skimmer spam (that I lost to) were so much more powerful than any of the other lists.
2014/09/07 16:57:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Not to spoil anything (and congrats on your performance in the tournament overall) but that's why "friendly" tournaments are rarely so. Some peope are always going to bring competitive lists (and honestly, why shouldn't they? It is in fact a competition).
2014/09/07 17:22:31
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Basically has a token Tyrant for air defense and the rest is focused on the Stealers and Dimas. Probably not tournament-grade competitive, but would be fun to play I think (if nothing else, everything is LD10 and more or less unconcerned with synapse loss).
Edit #2 Fixed a math error with above list... Had one Tyrant too many for the point bracket.
I like this list a lot, and not just because it's trying to prove that assault isn't dead. But the timing of the inevitable turn 2 assaults from the infiltrating stealers might be too far advanced from the rest of the force, leading to easier target priority. Part of me thinks that stealers would work best in a turn 2 Maximum Threat Overload list. That being said, it's not often that 3 Dimas will be able to get to combat relatively unmolested, and with the support of the Malanthropes you can almost believe that it's possible.
Don't forget what happens If he gets Master of Ambush. Three infiltrating Dimas... I think I would Outflank one or two Broods of Stealers though, just to place pressure on the other player....
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/09/07 17:39:08
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
luke1705 wrote: Not to spoil anything (and congrats on your performance in the tournament overall) but that's why "friendly" tournaments are rarely so. Some peope are always going to bring competitive lists (and honestly, why shouldn't they? It is in fact a competition).
Sure I expected it. I did exactly as I wanted to do. I had tons of self imposed list limitations that, and since I was there to promote my own tourney, and didn't know many people, I didn't want to bring my A game and stomp everyone. My living artillery or Barbed Hierodule lists would have won this tourney without problem. I would never bring my list to a tourney and expect to win.
The guy who brought the Necron list got a lot of flakk before the tourney, and quite a bit after. I also think the Forgeworld Dark Eldar skimmer will be strongly discourage for the future. I was happy with my performance mainly because I felt like I could have won all 3 of my games had I traded armies with my opponents.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
's to wound on the turn he charged, killing the entire squad at once). The Grav Centurions eventually killed the Hive Crone, but otherwise did nothing other than eat vector strikes all game and kill a handful of Hormagaunts.
Three infiltrating Dimas... 
I think I would Outflank one or two Broods of Stealers though, just to place pressure on the other player.... 