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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

I dunno dude, I love 'em. the Enforcers and Peacekeepers are my favorite sci fi plastic infantry on the market. And methyl ethyl ketone works just fine on 'em.
But I do agree about $2 per mini, which is what my personal max is for new plastics anyway. $4 is dumb.

I'm not sure how I would rank them. I love the design of the Enforcers, especially the Peacekeepers, but the execution reduced my joy. Same thing with Sedition Wars' Samaritans. DFG's Valkir were more complicated minis, and a real pleasure to assemble, but their designs are limited to not-GW and not-Star Wars, at least for now. GW's minis are brilliant, but too expensive to love. If DG were still making UAMC, I'd probably be buying them along with WGF WW2 plastics to make all kinds of conversions.

I honestly can't think of better plastic sci fi dudes. Well, I love the SST Mobile Infantry designs, but they were a pain to put together. the plastic Skinnies were great, too. Defiance were good despite limitations... but in terms of still commercially available, I think Mantic's are just the best plastic sci fi generic infantry hard/power armor dudes. There's no GW sci fi dude that I like anymore. Maybe if they made reasonably priced Elysian plastics or something.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Is ethyl ketone what is in Humbrol Poly? I guess I must be using the wrong stuff, because it works fine for GW, WGF and Renedra, but doesn't work on the newer Mantic plastics for me. Not without really dousing the joins with enough glue to melt their little faces off. As someone who is chemically sensitive, I try not to use the modelling glues from my childhood. I had a lot of fun back then, but those fumes were something else. It probably didn't help that we did all the modelling in the dining room.

MEK is usually the thinner stuff that you brush on and it melts plastics together. Been using it for years. Tamiya, Testors, Plastruct, etc, all have vaguely different formulations.

Plastruct is what I consider to be the hard stuff. The fumes keep me from using it for any minis I don't need it for.

I'm not saying the Enforcers are bad or shouldn't be your favorite. I just see room for improvement, especially with the legs and hips, the limited number of fully helmeted heads, the CC hands, the sprue labelling, and some of the detail areas (less a problem on the Peacekeeper sprues, IMO). The Forgeguard seem to suffer more from some of these weaknesses, yet I still like the models.

All in all, I am happy with my KS purchases, but I would have been unhappy if I had paid MSRP, or even 20% off. I bought more HIPS from DZ2, because the prices were right. For a dollar per mini, I'm much more forgiving.

I'm in the camp of loving the Enforcers designs (most of them). The Pathfinders have some issues and Peacekeepers have tiny foot syndrome IMO, but on the whole, they are one of my favorite mass produced sci-fi models.
The Marauders.. are the complete opposite end of the spectrum from me. I have come to despise a lot of the GW aesthetic of late, save for their orks.. who I do enjoy greatly. Because of that, and how close Mantic's Marauders are to them, I can't help but draw comparisons and that forces it to boil down to personal opinion/taste.. and for me that does not go towards the Marauders. I do like that they are not hodge-podge like the GW stuff though, so I like their gear better than the GW Orks if that makes sense. Maybe I guess if you painted up Marauders to look like the aliens from Fifth Element (Mangalore)http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Mangalore and I like to pretend the Mawbeasts never happened.

I really like the designs of some of the sci-fi creatures that appear in the rebel faction in in various places in Dreadball. I think in that regard, Mantic has done a lot for sci-fi gaming that other companies have been reluctant to do. Some of it is a bit over the top but I think it's really the exception and not the rule where Dreadball is concerned.

The Corporation models are IMO where it starts to fall apart. I haven't been keeping up with concept art or rumors around this but I really hope the Rangers and other models from that line get an overhaul. They are not indicative of what you see from Enforcers or Forgefathers.

The sprue of Forgefathers I got with my DZ stuff completely won me over towards them. I am not normally a fan of squats, Grymm, or whatever name you give space dwarves, but their design and execution for the hard plastics was a homerun IMO. I haven't had time to assemble them yet but the sprues look amazing. After I get moved in to my new place they're high on the list.. and the concept art is looking promising. My DZ:Infestation order actually consisted of most of what I would presume I would need for a Forgefather army.

The zombies that most people are in love with are decent in my book. I think.. again.. they have tiny feet and some things about how they are clothed and the way they are meant to be assembled aren't really where I would've gone but that's a personal taste thing. For what they are and the prices we're able to get them at, they are a really good buy and a much needed change of pace for anyone trying to do sci-fi zombies. I like Sedition Wars for it's zombies too but I think the Mantic zombies do offer a more traditional zombie without all the techno-organic stuff.

As to loving this company, hating that company etc. For me personally, investing emotions in a company is a one-way street that goes nowhere. I keep trying to say I don't love or hate any individual company which... I think some people are not understanding. I like some products of a company, I like some game systems. I don't judge or condemn an entire company based on one thing or another. I don't even judge the company.. I just buy their stuff if I like it and if I don't I won't. Me talking about companies being honest or not has more to do with me explaining WHY I don't invest emotions into companies.. it has nothing to do with any specific company. If you don't agree with it, that's your choice and you can believe whatever you like. For me, the emotionally healthy thing to do has been to stay detached from the companies and enjoy the stuff I like. Seems pretty simple to me.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: Art direction
Perhaps we mean different things. I see the new Veermyn have a coherent look, and that's great, but the marauders don't.

The Marauders are getting reworked again I think? In any case the DZ stuff does have a coherent look.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Then there are the sculpts that are just plain bad (or marmite since there always seem to be some people who will buy anything). The dog drone was changed (arguably for the better, even) because the backers made a lot of noise, yet the Enforcer Scouts still look the same, because apparently ensuring you have a great sculpt instead of a not-too-bad sculpt before you spend tens of thousands on tooling is outside of Mantic's art director's purview. Or there is no art director.

You say they have no art direction yet, everything render from the DZI KS says different. The Enforcers art theme is well set. the Dorfs are getting troops to better match the current FF stuff. The veermyn stuff aside from the Nightmares and old Nightspawn all follow the same direction. Then there's the Demons for KOW and the Nature stuff looks right on point as well. You mention terrible sculpts and assuming you're not just disagreeing with the design choices I'd like to see these universally hated mantic models. Goblins? That seems up for debate. Elves? Comes down to style choices. maybe KOM stuff but I haven't looked too closely at those. The enforcers themselves seem like they had to be scaled down slightly to fit the target scale, But I agree that they don't fit in with the other humans well at all at the moment.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up.
I got a lot of flack for saying similar things about Medge's Epirian Contractors, but for Mantic it's an even bigger issue.

ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Mantic is not a small group of guys making their first minis anymore. They keep making rookie mistakes or communicating worse than a Polish company trying to sidestep copyright laws. They keep screwing up the small things and almost screwing up the big things. When GW hands them a golden opportunity, they hand it right back, saying, "no, thanks." I love Mantic, I want to see them succeed, but I would do them no favors by letting them get away with such incompetence without calling them on it.

They do seem to be in a bit of a rush, but you're overstating their problems. They didn't say no thanks to GW. They said hey guys retailers won't stock something you can get for free! Shocking. They have weaknesses like any business does. We knew months in advance that Veermyn were up next. Mantic heard folks on WP and are addressing that as well. Hate restic? Boom gone. ( I didn't like this personally but understand it.). Mantic addresses their failings. They've made strides in sorting out KS issues as well. Smaller campaign + The Pledge manager isn't perfect but seems to work well in all but a few edge cases. Do they have problems? yes. Are some of their ranges in a transitional period? also yes.
The weekly update if it takes would address communication as well.

TL;DR
I disagree.

 MLaw wrote:

At the end of the day, Mantic is in the business of creating models (and games I guess) to make money. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.

Would you also say the same about Vic Minis, Raging Heroes, Scibor, Maxmini, Kromlech, Puppetswar, Mad Robot, Anvil Industries, Shieldwolf, Avatars or War, (and many more). They're all primarily in the business of selling not-GW models, which is to say riding GW's coat-tails. Are they all bad, dishonest and not to be trusted?

What about PlayStation and XBox? They were both built on being alternatives to the Nintendo and Sega-dominated console space. We could spend all day coming up with more, of course.

Because I'm not sure how you think openly providing an alternative to a very popular thing is inherently dishonest or untrustworthy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..

Or Reaper is just wrong.

Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?

All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!

Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.

As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.

Nah. Kickstarter just selectively enforces their own "rules". It's to stop you or me offering GW Dreadnoughts or unboxed Sigmarines or Cans of Coke or whatever as backer rewards. KS are quite happy for Mantic, who are a big, repeat "customer" who makes them quite a lot of money to offer 4-Ground scenery and SWM Tablescapes and their own existing products as optional add-ons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:

They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.

To be fair, proportion and being able to move inside your armour is a far older and wider issue in this industry, and not one that anyone seems keen on sorting out. It's unfair to single out Mantic on this. And I've agreed with you and pointed out their pinheads before.

 Azazelx wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..

Or Reaper is just wrong.

Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?

All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!

Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.

As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.

Nah. Kickstarter just selectively enforces their own "rules". It's to stop you or me offering GW Dreadnoughts or unboxed Sigmarines or Cans of Coke or whatever as backer rewards. KS are quite happy for Mantic, who are a big, repeat "customer" who makes them quite a lot of money to offer 4-Ground scenery and SWM Tablescapes and their own existing products as optional add-ons

Pretty simple, neither you nor I produced GW Dreadnoughts or Sigmarines or Coke. And neither you nor I are partnered with the companies which do produce them The other stuff from other companies tends to be produced for the project or in collaboration with Mantic for the project.

 CptJake wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..

Or Reaper is just wrong.

Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?

All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!

Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.

As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.

Nah. Kickstarter just selectively enforces their own "rules". It's to stop you or me offering GW Dreadnoughts or unboxed Sigmarines or Cans of Coke or whatever as backer rewards. KS are quite happy for Mantic, who are a big, repeat "customer" who makes them quite a lot of money to offer 4-Ground scenery and SWM Tablescapes and their own existing products as optional add-ons

Pretty simple, neither you nor I produced GW Dreadnoughts or Sigmarines or Coke. And neither you nor I are partnered with the companies which do produce them The other stuff from other companies tends to be produced for the project or in collaboration with Mantic for the project.

Okay, I'll play.

And you're wrong. So very wrong.



Produced for KoW? Produced in collaboration with Mantic (for this or any Mantic project)? Nope.
Nope. These aren't the "DeadZone boards" - which would fit your criteria. It's a case of "We've partnered with our friends to offer their existing product as part of out kickstarter". Which is fine, but not what you're trying to justify via KS T&C. We all know KS selectively follow/enforce their own "rules" so I'm not sure why you're even bothering trying to prove otherwise.

I'll have that apology now. Thanks for playing.

@AzazelX - (you typed a lot to other people and I don't feel like trying to trim all of that out)
I don't trust any company. Why should I or anyone? Outside of providing things for us to buy, what role are companies supposed to play in our lives? Being trustworthy has nothing to do with their ability to produce things I want to buy. I would say EXACTLY the same thing about all of those companies you listed. Would I still buy from them, and Mantic.. yup. My point is more about the amount of emotional investment people are placing in companies rather than the products created by them. I love the way the Dodge Challengers look. Do I trust Dodge as a company? It's weird to me how dearly a lot of people hold companies. This isn't directed at fans of Mantic specifically, just a general observation about the whole ideology of this type of thing. I feel the same way towards people who are in this camp towards GW, Marvel vs DC, Pepsi vs Coke, Miller vs Coors or whatever.. People treat companies and businesses like they are family members but I don't know the last time any of these businesses did anything outside of offering their product for us to purchase.

A further and slightly separate thought. It's funny to me, that people would attack one another over any of this, physically or verbally, or any other form. This is meant to be a community and a place for meaningful conversation. However, when people who are emotionally invested in any topic become involved, they tend to shout loudly at anyone with differing views as to avoid hearing anything that isn't praise towards their beloved company. Again.. this isn't specific to Mantic.. I see this with GW, Reaper, DnD vs Pathfinder, Xbox vs Playstation, Ford vs Chevy, etc etc. When someone posts this long winded response just to say they don't agree with something, is anyone at all shocked? Is any meaningful discussion even possible when everyone is treated as adversarial? Come on guys.. we're better as a species and society than this.

Mantic has products that I like. That is a fact about my opinion. Mantic has products and practices that I don't like. Also a fact about my opinion. Arguing about anyone's opinion really doesn't do a whole lot. Constructively pointing out some things a person might have missed, sure.. that could be helpful. Telling a person they're just wrong or calling them a troll, or flame-baiting and sicking the mods on them? None of that accomplishes anything good. Mantic is the only one that can completely turn around their view. In the meantime, people seeking to act as emissaries for them should consider the public face they're putting forward.

MLaw, it's like the modern version of a Demon Haunted World. I want to believe that corporations are not soulless, meaningless, cold edifices of pure greed built by exploitation. No, some of them are magical gestalts of good ideas, pure intentions and rainbow puppy fairies.

Or else I don't think I can go on.

 NobodyXY wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Re: Art direction
Perhaps we mean different things. I see the new Veermyn have a coherent look, and that's great, but the marauders don't.

The Marauders are getting reworked again I think? In any case the DZ stuff does have a coherent look.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Then there are the sculpts that are just plain bad (or marmite since there always seem to be some people who will buy anything). The dog drone was changed (arguably for the better, even) because the backers made a lot of noise, yet the Enforcer Scouts still look the same, because apparently ensuring you have a great sculpt instead of a not-too-bad sculpt before you spend tens of thousands on tooling is outside of Mantic's art director's purview. Or there is no art director.

You say they have no art direction yet, everything render from the DZI KS says different. The Enforcers art theme is well set. the Dorfs are getting troops to better match the current FF stuff. The veermyn stuff aside from the Nightmares and old Nightspawn all follow the same direction. Then there's the Demons for KOW and the Nature stuff looks right on point as well. You mention terrible sculpts and assuming you're not just disagreeing with the design choices I'd like to see these universally hated mantic models. Goblins? That seems up for debate. Elves? Comes down to style choices. maybe KOM stuff but I haven't looked too closely at those. The enforcers themselves seem like they had to be scaled down slightly to fit the target scale, But I agree that they don't fit in with the other humans well at all at the moment.

I'm glad to hear the marauders are getting reworked again. I remember the initial backer reaction during the first Deadzone kickstarter. Still, my point was that Mantic is clearly struggling to find a coherent design philosophy, something they should have done before sinking hundreds of thousands on tooling molds, making packaging, etc..

The renders from DZI do not show one cohesive art direction (although they are a vast improvement over KoW, KoW2, and so on). They show that the Enforcers were mostly designed by one guy, possibly all sculpted digitally by the same guy, and that he had his own aesthetic. The Veermyn have a noticeably different aesthetic, even if they are consistent with each other. The characters seem to be somewhat variable. The forgefather reboot is a positive step, but it wouldn't have been necessary if someone had just said "That won't work" in the first place.

My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man. I think that falls under the art director's job, so I call him an art director. But there should be someone who tells artists, sculptors, and machinists when their work isn't up to snuff. The new Greater Obsidian Golem, for example, is widely (although not universally, to my surprise) recognized as a subpar model, especially for $40. The Enforcer Pathfinders have noticeable problems with their torsos that have been commented on, and usually dismissed as not being a dealbreaker. And then there's their little dog, too. I'm not talking about Mantic scrapping whole designs or changing their entire aesthetic (well, maybe for the Golem), but simply tightening up the sculpts, giving things another pass, fixing a few minor flaws that should be much faster and cheaper to fix in CAD now than by issuing another "Forgefather re-do".

If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up.
I got a lot of flack for saying similar things about Medge's Epirian Contractors, but for Mantic it's an even bigger issue.

ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Mantic is not a small group of guys making their first minis anymore. They keep making rookie mistakes or communicating worse than a Polish company trying to sidestep copyright laws. They keep screwing up the small things and almost screwing up the big things. When GW hands them a golden opportunity, they hand it right back, saying, "no, thanks." I love Mantic, I want to see them succeed, but I would do them no favors by letting them get away with such incompetence without calling them on it.

They do seem to be in a bit of a rush, but you're overstating their problems. They didn't say no thanks to GW. They said hey guys retailers won't stock something you can get for free! Shocking. They have weaknesses like any business does. We knew months in advance that Veermyn were up next. Mantic heard folks on WP and are addressing that as well. Hate restic? Boom gone. ( I didn't like this personally but understand it.). Mantic addresses their failings. They've made strides in sorting out KS issues as well. Smaller campaign + The Pledge manager isn't perfect but seems to work well in all but a few edge cases. Do they have problems? yes. Are some of their ranges in a transitional period? also yes.
The weekly update if it takes would address communication as well.

TL;DR
I disagree.

If I am overstating their problems, it is because they keep having the same problems and refuse to fix them. It makes me a lot less generous towards the company and any of their new releases.

They refused the golden opportunity by miscommunicating with backers. It is understandable that they wouldn't want to give everything away that they want retailers to sell, however, their fans and even their rules committee had the impression and shared it for weeks that the rules would be full and complete enough for WHFB users to use them. Mantic screwed up in how they handled the situation, as well as all the other broken promises they've made recently.

The steps you mention would go a long way towards making me happier with them. I really hope DZ 2 is the kickstarter where everything goes right for them (and for me as a backer). However, I've heard a lot of promises since KoW1, and while Mantic is making progress, it seems painfully slow for a company with regular high-funding kickstarters. Every time it seems like they have something sorted, they find some other way to "almost". They seem like a company full of good people trying to do a good job, so I'm pulling for them. They make a lot of great products and have a sense of fun in their communications. But I'm not pledging more than a dollar until I see some prototypes or convincing renders anymore.

Quality control and communication are probably mantics biggest problem. They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.

The mooning grot is my favourite part of the orc sprue. :p

 carlos13th wrote:
They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.

They do though. They sent the Enforcers and Forge Guard back to the factory, they (wrongly imo) sent the DOG drone back to the sculptor to be redone, and they sent the art for Valendor and Bael back to be redone a couple times, and those are just the ones I can remember.

What you're saying is that you fault them for not sending back to be redone the stuff you didn't personally like, which isn't a legitimate grievance.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.

They do though. They sent the Enforcers and Forge Guard back to the factory, they (wrongly imo) sent the DOG drone back to the sculptor to be redone, and they sent the art for Valendor and Bael back to be redone a couple times, and those are just the ones I can remember.

What you're saying is that you fault them for not sending back to be redone the stuff you didn't personally like, which isn't a legitimate grievance.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think he means they should have started doing it sooner. When they were smaller, they didn't want to step on toes or offend. Now they're getting bigger and telling people "fix it, or we ain't paying". Basically, Mantic learned from mistakes in the past and has worked to correct them. Have they found new mistakes? Sure.*

*regardless of what SOME individuals think, smaller legs and bigger upper bodies are not mistakes. They're the art direction Mantic chose to go with. Whining will not change that. Don't like it, don't buy it. Got it? Great. After all, that's just common sense-if you hate something, you don't buy it (unless it's required to live). If you buy an unnecessary item you hate (for yourself), you're an idiot.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man.
If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.

Those are all 2013 though, so that's a good sign.

Axe man = Professional Naysayer, btw. A lot of people need them. George Lucas did, Spielberg does, etc. People whose sole purpose in life is to point out that what they're doing is totally dumb.

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man.
If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.

Those are all 2013 though, so that's a good sign.

Axe man = Professional Naysayer, btw. A lot of people need them. George Lucas did, Spielberg does, etc. People whose sole purpose in life is to point out that what they're doing is totally dumb.

It is a good sign. Most of their DZ2 and KOW2 stuff looks good to great in renders. I would have bought a lot of Naiads, Succubi, Salamanders and Abyssals in plastic if the pledge manager had reopened. I'll be getting some of each of the DZ2 plastics, even the Veermyn, to see what I think of them in person. When my DS stuff comes in, I'll see how they handled the board game plastic. If they can keep it at MA Tiger Corps level, then I would love to see them move entirely into HIPS and board game plastic for everything.

@Timetowaste - Complaining about something we don't like could be seen as whining. Or.. It could be seen as providing feedback. Was everyone whining when they read the released alpha rules and got Mantic to backpedal?

I think they're still going to stick with metal for small run stuff, and resin for small run stuff that's way too big to be made in metal.

I hope they don't abandon restic entirely, because while it's pretty naff for my smaller Rebs and Asterians, it's perfect for Ogres, Marauder Orks and larger. The formula they used on my DBX stuff is pretty good imo.

 MLaw wrote:
@Timetowaste - Complaining about something we don't like could be seen as whining. Or.. It could be seen as providing feedback. Was everyone whining when they read the released alpha rules and got Mantic to backpedal?

"These rules are broken when this unit can do this, these guys are missing an option that those guys have, and the magic list has been neutered horribly from last edition." All complaints that have a valid point and reflect on mistaken rules (honestly, these are generic 'gripes' I just typed up, I don't actually remember the issues with Alpha)

"I don't like models that have larger upper torsos and smaller legs. You guys seriously messed these models up. Even though multiple other companies do it and there's clearly a market for it! You guys shouldn't do it because I don't like it!" Not a worthwhile complaint. It comes down to subjective vs objective. Even if there are hundreds of people voicing the same concerns, if there is already a market for such an item, it won't please everyone. It just has to please a majority.

Badly written rules that are easily broken or messed up by players are objectively bad. Model appearances are entirely subjective, and there is a clear audience for the body style they went with, as can be seen in comics dating back to the 80s, Privateer Press and other model companies. Blaming them and criticizing them for a subjective opinion against what they and multiple others have decided is their art medium is foolish and childish.

I bought, and regret, Basilean sisters. I think they're bad. But others are scooping them up and using them. Mine haven't left the box. My subjective opinion is that they suck. Others have the subjective opinion that they're great, good, or okay for their purposes. Do I wish they were better? Hell yes. But if Mantic is selling them in decent quantities and people are buying them...well, my opinion is my opinion. I can bitch about a line I dislike or I can focus on things I do like.

Right.. but if popular opinion is that this looks silly or that looks silly it might give Mantic something to go off of if they're trying to understand why sales of a particular set are low or similar. Again.. there are a lot of their sets that I own and like a lot. I'm not here to bash them or troll as people keep trying to say. I'm sharing my opinion just like anyone. For instance.. I can't stand the KoW dwarves. Their heads look weird, their feet.. just their proportions in general are wonky to me. I have seen other people post similar. That doesn't mean people can't like that look... I like a lot of models others think are ugly (I like Mantics Trolls a lot but I know that's not popular opinion) but when you see Mantic release Forgefathers who have more traditional proportions, it tells me that maybe they heard that feedback and adjusted their approach a little. I don't want to get long-winded again so I'll just ask one more question. How is Mantic, a company who I've heard is good at listening to their customers, supposed to be able to listen to us if we don't offer them feedback?

The renders from DZI do not show one cohesive art direction (although they are a vast improvement over KoW, KoW2, and so on). They show that the Enforcers were mostly designed by one guy, possibly all sculpted digitally by the same guy, and that he had his own aesthetic. The Veermyn have a noticeably different aesthetic, even if they are consistent with each other. The characters seem to be somewhat variable. The forgefather reboot is a positive step, but it wouldn't have been necessary if someone had just said "That won't work" in the first place.

I'm not... what? Shouldn't each race follow it's own aesthetic? Super Mutant rats and Enforcers can't exist together? Did WP1 go to KS? Did they have the funds to design it from the ground up? I assumed the hybrid kits were a necessity at the time. The old FF may not be to your liking and are a bit limited but they weren't "shut it down" bad.

My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man. I think that falls under the art director's job, so I call him an art director. But there should be someone who tells artists, sculptors, and machinists when their work isn't up to snuff. The new Greater Obsidian Golem, for example, is widely (although not universally, to my surprise) recognized as a subpar model, especially for $40. The Enforcer Pathfinders have noticeable problems with their torsos that have been commented on, and usually dismissed as not being a dealbreaker. And then there's their little dog, too. I'm not talking about Mantic scrapping whole designs or changing their entire aesthetic (well, maybe for the Golem), but simply tightening up the sculpts, giving things another pass, fixing a few minor flaws that should be much faster and cheaper to fix in CAD now than by issuing another "Forgefather re-do".

I agree that assuming they can hire, a what like 50-70kk/yr director they should. I just don't think they can. I have no idea if the cost is proportional, are there similar sized resin beasts to compare too? I don't actually play fantasy, but haven't heard universally bad things about it. I've heard some early criticism. I thought that model isn't out yet. In my opinion I disagree with it's aesthetic. I like to point out that the Golem came out pretty close to the concept art though. The enforcer female torso is the only problem I've seen so far, but if The sprue is set up the same as Zombies (Moar Torsos!) It can be avoided. I'm not sure having it on the sprue is worth it to be honest, but Mantic does need more female minis in their Sci-fi. Also no boob windows/bikini armour puts it miles ahead of a lot of companies mini's in my opinion.

If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.

I don't like Men at arms faces but they at least look like a person proportionally speaking. I had a look but can't for the life of me figure out what GOG is. I couldn't find Drakon riders in the store but found three pictures on google. So i guess mantic agrees? Or is this unit getting a re-sculpt/being replaced? The assassin is pretty bad I agree. Werewolves are less hairy than I'd like but don't seem like bad sculpts. I assume this is about the ogres not splaying their legs like the hero one right? I'd still prefer them over the GW. There maybe one set of legs that have very slightly inward pointing knees for the warriors. The trolls I don't like personally but they don't seem bad just a weird humanoid. Little too gorilla for my tastes. Orx hero I assume KOW? The Hero isn't the most eye catching and the neck from the studio photo angle looks under sculpted.. That banner bearer is beautiful in my opinion though. Chainsaw mawbeasts... What a horrible existence. I agree that the Chainsaw was too much but I willing to ignore that because the mawbeast themselves are pretty neat in my opinion. The Cats aren't a great sculpt I agree here. The riders are fine. The only thing I don't like about the sisters is their knee pads. Veermyn I like obviously but the sculpts were limited but really, really cool in my opinion. I don't have an opinion on the grots except why don't scifi get any!?
All in all that was fun! Some sculpts weren't great but a lot were good to great in my opinion. Thanks!

If I am overstating their problems, it is because they keep having the same problems and refuse to fix them. It makes me a lot less generous towards the company and any of their new releases.

They fixed a lot of their problems, but I can agree that their not perfect and have some areas where improvement would make for a happier community. better communication essentially.

They refused the golden opportunity by miscommunicating with backers. It is understandable that they wouldn't want to give everything away that they want retailers to sell, however, their fans and even their rules committee had the impression and shared it for weeks that the rules would be full and complete enough for WHFB users to use them. Mantic screwed up in how they handled the situation, as well as all the other broken promises they've made recently.

The only two 'broken' promises that I remember in the short term is that and the bard fig. both were answered quickly by mantic. Someone more knowledgeable mentioned that the free KOW1 rules were a tapered release. Any reason why that won't happen again? I'd much rather retailers feel better about investing in mantic products than 100% free rules before they even hit retail. I agree in regards to lack of communication. But even in this they did better Ronnie cleared up misconceptions the next day on a saturday right? I mean thats better turn around isn't it?

The steps you mention would go a long way towards making me happier with them. I really hope DZ 2 is the kickstarter where everything goes right for them (and for me as a backer). However, I've heard a lot of promises since KoW1, and while Mantic is making progress, it seems painfully slow for a company with regular high-funding kickstarters. Every time it seems like they have something sorted, they find some other way to "almost". They seem like a company full of good people trying to do a good job, so I'm pulling for them. They make a lot of great products and have a sense of fun in their communications. But I'm not pledging more than a dollar until I see some prototypes or convincing renders anymore.

The steps I've mentioned are all recent actions so not sure what you mean there. I'm not sure of the size at mantic. like 6 or 7 employees? For me that makes producing and supporting 4 games punching well above their weight. Didn't you already go in on this KS? Why would you, considering we haven't seen prototypes yet? I'm not taking shots at you just wondering what made you go in then? Dorfs right? To bad they don't menace with spikes.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 NTRabbit wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.

They do though. They sent the Enforcers and Forge Guard back to the factory, they (wrongly imo) sent the DOG drone back to the sculptor to be redone, and they sent the art for Valendor and Bael back to be redone a couple times, and those are just the ones I can remember.

What you're saying is that you fault them for not sending back to be redone the stuff you didn't personally like, which isn't a legitimate grievance.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think he means they should have started doing it sooner. When they were smaller, they didn't want to step on toes or offend. Now they're getting bigger and telling people "fix it, or we ain't paying". Basically, Mantic learned from mistakes in the past and has worked to correct them. Have they found new mistakes? Sure.*

*regardless of what SOME individuals think, smaller legs and bigger upper bodies are not mistakes. They're the art direction Mantic chose to go with. Whining will not change that. Don't like it, don't buy it. Got it? Great. After all, that's just common sense-if you hate something, you don't buy it (unless it's required to live). If you buy an unnecessary item you hate (for yourself), you're an idiot.

What you call "whining" is basically what 99% of Dakka (and any forum) consists of. Without it, this would be one empty place.

Want to write for a games company that's not GW.....

The sudden voice of the Brokkr in the silence broke the tension like a bubble bursting, and Skarn turned to see what had distracted him now. Again, he was staring fixated at a small puddle of fluid. Skarn walked over to him, gun still grasped firmly in his hand. As he approached, he saw that it wasn’t water, nor indeed lubricant. It had a deep, dark colour, flashing black under the floodlights of the chamber. It was blood. And in the same instant, he realised that it was not the fluid itself whichwas so captivating Brann, but what was happening to it – small ripples spreading outwards in concentric circles in an irregular rhythm.

Braafi’s shout spun him around in time to see the beast charge out of the darkness. Easily the height of three Dwarfs, it unleashed a roar of primal fury as it came, the sound resonating deep in Skarn’s gut. Behind it, a flood of human sized creatures followed, the scraps of their mining fatigues still clinging to distorted, grotesque frames. So that was what had happened to this damned place.

It's time to bring down Containment Protocol! When we smashed the 2100 backers goal, we promised to create a Deadzone: Infestation short story compilation. We've been itching to get started, so our editor is all lined up and we’ve already got some big-name support from Guy Haley and David Guymer! However, this is just the beginning.


This is your chance to join the ranks of our professional writers and get your name in lights – that’s right, we’re looking for submissions. If you’re a budding author then you’re in with a chance to win $250! We want to use these short stories to develop our universe, our characters, and ultimately, our games. Storytelling has always been at the heart of the hobby – it’s the epic tales of war that make tabletop gaming what it is. It's not just about moving plastic models around a board, but the desperate last-stand of the Pathfinders against the Veermyn tide closing in; the ships helplessly shot from orbit to prevent the rats from spreading; the clashing of different factions as they vie for the power and resources of a dying planet.


We commissioned a set of short stories during the Deadzone and DreadBall Xtreme Kickstarters now available on Mantic Digital, and the talent we’ve seen is unbelievable – you can relive the desperate gunfights, political intrigue and fantastical technology of our sci-fi universe. With every story I came away with thoughts of modelling projects, of new characters that I want to use in my games. Now I want to do that with Infestation!

Without further ado, if you want to take part, here’s what we need: ·

A 100 word synopsis for your story, which must be based around Deadzone. It can overlap with our other games if you like.
A 500 word writing sample so that we can get an understanding of your ability and style.
A signed copy of the following agreement: Mantic Short Story Agreement (300KB, PDF).
Please send your submission to our editor Greg Smith at greg995@googlemail.com.

Once the submission period has ended we will go through the entries, pick out the best, and get started on the stories! Stories picked for the following stages will be need to be approximately 6000 words. The top 10-12 that make it through to the final stages will be published in an anthology available through Mantic Digital, and may also be used in our upcoming rulebooks and expansions for the game. Furthermore, there are prizes!

The single best submission will win $250 cash!
All other stories picked for publication will win $100 worth of Mantic goodies!
The closing date is midnight on the 10th of August 2015. Pens at the ready, off you go!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
A 100 word synopsis for your story, which must be based around Deadzone. It can overlap with our other games if you like.
A 500 word writing sample so that we can get an understanding of your ability and style.
A signed copy of the following agreement: Mantic Short Story Agreement (300KB, PDF).
Please send your submission to our editor Greg Smith at greg995@googlemail.com.

Once the submission period has ended we will go through the entries, pick out the best, and get started on the stories! Stories picked for the following stages will be need to be approximately 6000 words. The top 10-12 that make it through to the final stages will be published in an anthology available through Mantic Digital, and may also be used in our upcoming rulebooks and expansions for the game. Furthermore, there are prizes!

The single best submission will win $250 cash!
All other stories picked for publication will win $100 worth of Mantic goodies!
The closing date is midnight on the 10th of August 2015. Pens at the ready, off you go!

It's less terrible than their last contest (where the prize was providing unpaid labour, with the opportunity for more unpaid labour in the future), but they're talking about publishing a ~70,000 book and paying something in the region of $750 for the authors (assuming the CoGS is 50% of the retail price). That's still pretty stingy unless that book is going to be free.

It's basically free and only read by KS bakers. I doubt they sold more than 2 digits worth of the last short story anthology.

Hey folks,

Just got my Dreadball Xtreme last wave box and rifled through it. Overall I'm quite pleased. Here are some 1st impressions.

Mutants / Robots:

I wasn't entirely pleased with either one of these teams when I saw them painted and assembled in the online pictures. I was critical of the mutants in particular here on Dakka. Having seen them up close, I can say that I'm going to have tremendous fun with both sets.

My primary problem with the Plague aesthetic in general is the microcephaly thing. I just don't care for their tiny heads; for me, only the 1st gen pulls it off well. During the course of building my own Plague I've discovered how much fun it can be to alter / kitbash the suckers, and many of the 3rd Gens I originally didn't care for now look just fine or great with heads from other Mantic figures or other ranges. I know people go on about the 3rd gen "uber-torso," but that only spoils one or two of the most extreme 3rd Gen bodies for me - (the mortar crew) - the rest look good to me with a normal-sized head. Anyhow, from a kitbashing standpoint I'm looking at the mutants as a pile of very useful bits; I expect that when I'm finished mixing them up with other bits and bobs (and better scaled heads), I'll love these mutants.

The robots likewise. I don't know if I'll even build them as a DBX team, but it shouldn't be hard to use them as chassis for weapon arms / bits from other lines. Or as servitor robots with tools doing background civilian stuff.

Giants:

The Chovar is fantastic, and a great substitute if you don't want to field the metal one. The Iron Ancestor is pretty much exactly the same size as the standard Warpath one, so modding it and including it with your FF force is no problem. Personally I'd like to change the awkward right arm position, and hey, maybe I will. The San-Gar is absurd with his shark's head sticking out of a humanoid body, but he's fun. I think with some modifications - I'd smooth out the head transition with some more armor bits and give him a finned tail for balance, myself - he'd look great in a Sphyr military force. The Kravastor spider is odd, and could be a lot more menacing, but given that it's a Koris beast from their weirdo alternate dimension, its bizarrely muscled legs and cyber-whatever doodads work well enough. It looks more beast-of-burden than lethal predator to me, but fine.

Sponsors: I love these guys. Lots of character and no weapons, so they can be used in Deadzone / Warpath / etc. as civvies, commanders, or objectives, and stylistically they fit right in. If you've ever thought about modding up a Teraton strike force and thought Kraato Gon would add some flavor to it as a communications specialist or whatever, I think you'll be pleased. (Well, I did and am.)

Koris team:

I can't really comment fairly on these guys because I actually ordered the Tsudochan team and got the Koris by mistake. I was never entirely happy with the Koris model renders, which is why I didn't order them in the first place. Anyhow, this was Mantic's one mistake with my order, and I'll be contacting them about it.

Expandable board:

It's not a big deal for me, as realistically I may never get around to using them, but it does seem that some of my expandable boards are warped.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
It's basically free and only read by KS bakers. I doubt they sold more than 2 digits worth of the last short story anthology.

Did they sell it as a book? A real book? Because I would buy that.

Looks like one of the Asterian droid figures for the Warpath KS slipped out a bit early. I don't think this has been posted here yet - (its from bruckenkopf.de)



Can't wait to get those droids in hard plastic.

That looks like a 3D print of the figure that appeared in the Asterian Battle Droid concept art from the last two open days.

Also, nobody forget that the DZI pledge manager closes midnight tonight, and won't be reopened.

I ended up dropping another $120 dollars or so--terrain, pathfinders, and Blaine, I think.