luke1705 wrote:

Gazra wrote:
It seems the conventional wisdom is that Tervigon's are bad, but is it possible to build them in a way to make them less sucky? I ask this as someone just starting their Tyranid army trying to figure out what to buy, knowing the answer will probably be no.

I get the arguments against them. They're expensive, their shooting ability is laughable, their psychic ability worse, and I pretty much agree. I also understand why dumping more points into an already over-costed model seems counter intuitive, but bear with me.

What if you added Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, and maybe even Electroshock Grubs to it? It seems that doing so would make this thing a pretty effective vehicle hunter. The glands gives it mobility and increases it's strength on the charge. The claws add another point of strength and give it Armourbane. That's 2-3 hits that will glance AV14 armor and penetrate everything else reliably. Electroshock Grubs are optional, but if you do take them you'll be able to tear through pretty much any HP3 AV13 vehicle in a single turn and, with some luck, a LAnd Raider equivalent as well.

Thoughts?

The tervigon is not all that bad in many ways, but as people have pointed out, it's expensive for what it does. Ask yourself what kind of army list you want to play, and the tervigon's place in the list. For example, I like playing aggressive lists that get up in your face as quickly as possible, relegating the tervigon to backfield support. For that role, a single unit of warriors is half the cost and just as durable against anything that isn't strength 8+. In cover, they're even MORE durable against non-strength 8 (9 wounds to 6). The other killer cost for a tervigon is that it means you can take one less flying hive tyrant. If you make it a troops selection (which seems nice) then you have to pay the gant tax, effectively making the troop tervigon even more expensive. One up-side is that you can get away with a single tervigon and 30 Gants as backfield objective support due to the tervigon spawning 2-3 troop choices most games (which RAW are Objective Secured, though there are some that debate that oddly). Even so, that's still a minimum of 315 points for 2 troop units (plus the freebie units), which leaves you less for the rest of the army. And what you get for those points is just not that impressive.

I feel like the best way to run Tervigons would be en masse (like 3 plus 3 max size gant squads). You have 3 incredibly durable troop choices, 3 huge troop units, and you can spawn an average of ....48 extra bodies or so. I actually should figure out the real number. If there is a 44 % chance of failure for each roll, with 10.5 Gants spawned per roll, how many Gants are spawned on average before the Mamma Jammas are exhausted? Point being, it's in that neighborhood and that's nearly 140 bodies (all OS) plus the surprisingly durable Tervigons for the low low cost of 1045 points. That might seem like a lot, but it's not much worse than the space marine OS drop pod spam lists. It's more durable but has less firepower. It's not going to win tournaments, but I guarantee 90 percent of lists you'll run into simply don't have enough anti-horde to deal with it. The issue with that is that it's BORING. Many people in my meta have stopped playing marine drop pod armies because they find them extremely linear and boring, but this takes that to a new extreme. And it's just a lot of models to move. But it's probably the best way to field Tervigons, sadly

 SHUPPET wrote:
The answer is definitely no, and anybody who tells you otherwise is likely either as new as you or someone who refuses to accept that it HAS been nerfed into unplayability from last edition. Don't listen to anyone telling you to play them.

However, if y have to use the model for whatever reason, low points games are where he will do slightly better. Also outflanking him with eGrubs in an aggressive list might POSSIBLY make you not so disappointed in the fact that you brought him and not another Mawloc. But it's unlikely. and this is assuming barebones+template btw! not some crappy close combat kitted Terv


The problem with crushing claws/AG is that he is already the most cost effective target in the dex to shoot at. Giving him those upgrades makes him the cost of a Flyrant without wings. Every wound they take off him is worth 40 points, that's almost double as much as a Mawloc for the same survivability and likely more damage. It's highly unlikely he'll make it to combat, but if he does it will be turn 3 at best since he has zero mobility, but often never at all.

He's one of the worse models in the dex, at lower points games his versatility and free points are more relevant and he isn't quite so squishy so I sometimes play him at <1000. Other than that he's p bad.

Gazra wrote:
I understand that the high point cost means that every wound is going to hurt more, but are opponents going to prioritize him as a target over things like Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Exocrines, Venomthropes, and Zoanthropes? Again, I'm coming from a lack of experience with Tyranids (but not 40k), but I'm just curious about targeting priority since pretty much all of or MCs have the same stats in regards to S/T and saves.

tag8833 wrote:

So let us take the best case scenario for your argument. 8 Points for 2 Scything Talons and thus 2 attacks. VS. 14 points for another genestealer, and thus 2 attacks.

If you had the option for an upgrade that was "Additional Biomass" that gave the Genestealer one more wound (with EW), and that upgrade cost you 6 points, would you take it. I would. If your answer is "No", then you probably want to take Scything Talons on some/all of your Genestealers.

coredump wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

So let us take the best case scenario for your argument. 8 Points for 2 Scything Talons and thus 2 attacks. VS. 14 points for another genestealer, and thus 2 attacks.

If you had the option for an upgrade that was "Additional Biomass" that gave the Genestealer one more wound (with EW), and that upgrade cost you 6 points, would you take it. I would. If your answer is "No", then you probably want to take Scything Talons on some/all of your Genestealers.

Do you feel the same way about Gaunts? That people should never put devourers on them? The math works out almost exactly the same for both situations. (8 for offense + 6 for wounds compared to 4 for offense and 4 for wounds)

I'm not saying scytals are a no-brainer... just that they are a much cheaper way of boosting the offense instead of adding bodies. Assuming you have some vanilla stealers to absorb the initial casualties, it can give you more offense for less points than you would get otherwise.

You have 15 stealers at 210pts. You can either spend 28pts and get 2 more stealers (for 4/6 more attacks), or spend the same pointss and get 7 sets of ST for 7/7 extra attacks. This advantage holds even if half of the brood has been killed.

In fact, by the time your choice is better, the brood has taken 12 casualties; at that point, your remaining 5 stealers get 10 attacks, and my remaining 3 only get 9 attacks. But I rarely make decisions that are only better after my unit is almost wiped out.

tag8833 wrote:

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Spoiler:

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.

tag8833 wrote:
Here is a mini batrep for my game against Triptide with Farsight bomb.
SPOILER.......

Spoiler:

I won Big. He conceded turn 4, I would have tabled him turn 5.

My List

Spoiler:

CAD:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E.Grubs)
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E.Grubs)

Malanthrope
Malanthrope

10 Hormagants
10 Termagants

20 Gargoyles
Crone

Mawloc (AG) <- I normally run 2 crones, but wanted to try out a substitution
Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers)

Bastion (Void Shield, 4 Barricades)

Living Artillery Node:
Exocrine
3 Biovores
3 Warriors (BS)

My Opponent's list was: (might be wrong on one upgrade or two, but really close).

Spoiler:

Commander Farsight.
Buffmander aka Commander (CNC, MSSS, PEN, VRT, Drone Controller) + 2 Gun Drones

Riptide (IA)
Riptide (HBC, Skyfire)
4 Crisis Suites (2 Plasma each, Target Lock) + 7 Gun Drones.

10 Kroot + 1 Kroot Hound
10 Kroot

Skyray (SMS, Disruption Pod)
R'varna (FNP, Skyfire)
3 Broadsides (HYMP, 2 Target locks)

Pregame: I had never faced R'varna before. It is great against Tyranids. Shoots 2 Large blasts works like this:
Gaunt 1 Hit per model S6 AP4
Gargoyle (bulky) 2 Hit per model S7 AP4
Malanthrope (Very Bulky) 3 Hit per model S8 AP4
Flyrant (MC) 3 Hit per model S8 AP4

Mission: We played BAO Mission #4 (not good for 'nids with the emphasis on Kill points, and the Hammer and anvil Deployment). It was night fighting.

Psychic powers. I had Paroxism, Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, and Onslaught. The only one that ever mattered was paroxism which took his Burstide down to BS:1 on turn 2.

Deployment: He put 3 Broadsides in his backfield on the left flank. R'varna on his backfield objective, and a Riptide flanking on either side. His skyray was on the left flank. I Deployed my bastion on my left flank at the edge of my deployment. My non-warlord flyrant, My Crone, gants, Exocrine, and Biovores behind the barricades. A Malanthrope inside, and Warriors on top. I rolled master of ambush, and so pushed My warlord flyrant, Gargoyle, other Malanthrope, and Dakkafex to midfield into terrain. Everything had a 2+ cover save.

Tau Turn 1:

Spoiler:

He won first turn, and opened up, The skyray put marker lights on my midcourt Malanthrope, and he fired R'varna at it (Failed a nova and took a wound, it the nova had succeed it would have been twice as many shots) getting my flyrant twice, My Dakkafex once, and 2 Gargoyles twice. 6 wounds on the Malan, I failed 3 saves, took a wound on the flyrant, and lost some gargoyles. Then the broadsides lit up the Malanthrope and killed it dead with SMS (no need for HYMPs). FIRST BLOOD. The rest of his army fired into my warlord. I thought it was going down but once it was at 1 wound, it made 8 saves.

Tyranid Turn 1:

Spoiler:

I didn't have a ton of options. Lots of stuff out of range. I move my gargoyles foward, but was 2" away from scoring a Maelstrom object so I ran them 6", and put them in a line right up against his entire backfield. My Biovores hit the broadsides 12 Hits, 8 wounds, 8 Saves (no pinning check). My Flyrants flew toward the broadsides. Lit them up. Managed to kill 1 which forced him to take a leadership, but he passed, I put 1 wound on another. My Crone fired 2 haywires at the Skyray. Both hit, but his 2+ Jink save (Jink + Nightfighting + Disruption pod) took care of them. My Dakkafex puts a wound on the ion tide. I ran everything else, disembarking the Malanthrope from the bastion.

Tau Turn 2:

Spoiler:

all of his reserves came in. Kroot outflanked on the right side of the board out of range of everything, but my TGauants, they killed 5. Farsight bomb arrived and Annihilated my Exocrine, and 2 of my Biovores, then got an 11 inch assault move to get it on terrain away from my Mawloc. Everything else fired at my one wound flyrant, However, all 3 riptides failed to Nova Charge and took a wound. The Skyray letting go all 6 of its missiles (snap shooting because of Jink). The burstide also Shot at BS:1 because of paroxisms. Between the 2 they only made me take 2 saves, and I passed both. R'varna scattered off with the first shot, and back onto itself on the 2nd. Lol. It failed a save and took another wound. Everything else got me to take another 2-3 saves, but I made them all. It was epic.

Tyranid Turn 2:

Spoiler:

Mawloc doesn't comes in. It finished them off. My incredible unkillable warlord vector strikes off the board (Taking one wound off of a broadside). Crone vector strikes the Skyray, rolls a 1. Flyrant fires Warp lance at Skyray, rolls a 1. Flyrant and crone light up the Broadsides doing 1 more wound leaving 2 broadsides with 1 wound each. Ugh!. But the key thing going on is that my Gargoyles line up 1 inch away from all 3 Riptides, and my Dakkafex moves into charge range of one of them. (3 inch move through cover). Dakkafex strips another wound off, leaving the iontide with 2 wounds. The Gargoyles fire, because hey why not? My dakkafex fails its 8 inch charge, but my Gargoyles easily make their multi-assault. They actually stip a wound off the ion tide (taking it down to 1), and gloriously tarpitting most of his army. In my backfield, things look grim, but in his desire to spread farsight bomb out he gave me some options, I move my 5 Termagants, 10 Hormagants, 1 Biovore, Malanthrope, and 3 Warriors all to charge the bomb. Took a wound off Farsight, and killed a drone in shooting. I send in the Termagants first to eat overwatch. They die. Then the Biovore, Malanthrope, warriors and Hormagants all make the charge. I'm charging over my barricades, so I'm initiative one, but I do challenge with my Malanthrope, and Farsight accepts. Farsight does no wounds to me (T 5 is big), and I take another wound from him with my poison 2+. Buffmander piles in but can't make base. The suites and drones pile in and kill a hormagant. My warriors and Biovore manage to kill the one suite who did make base, and them my Hormagants kill some drones. He lost combat by 4. Rolled an 11, and ran, but it was not to be. I swept him. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Tau turn 3:

Spoiler:

He doesn't have much to shoot. But what he does have kills my Crone. In the assault phase one riptide kills the only 2 gargoyles in base, and can't pile in, so he gets free.

Tyranids turn 3:

Spoiler:

My Mawloc comes in, and finishes the broadsides. My Flyrant comes on and kills a bunch of Kroot sending them running the entire length of the board. My other flyrant lands behind the Skyray (a mistake). He takes 2 hull points off of it, stunning it. My Dakkafex moves toward the one wound ion tide. Fails to kill it in shooting, but does finish it in assault leaving my Dakkafex with only 1 wound. My backfield moves toward the Kroot. My Gargoyles do nothing but blind R'varna, and lose 3 gargoyles, but because I wasn't paying enough attention they are out of synapse, and get swept.

Tau turn 4:

Spoiler:

Kroot do nothing. R'Varna kills the Dakkafex and Burstide takes a wound off the flyrant. At this point with little left, he concedes. If he hadn't, I would have assaulted his burstide with my flyrant, R'varna with my Mawloc, and killed his Kroot. I would have tabled him by the end of 5.

Tyranids turn 4:

Spoiler:

Game over

Tau Turn 5:

Spoiler:

Game over

Tyranids Turn 5:

Spoiler:

Game over

Post Game thoughts:

Spoiler:

I rolled really, really well, and he rolled really, really poorly. This isn't the way this matchup is going to go most of the time. I still feel like my list doesn't have good answers to Tau gunline, although farsight bomb is less of a problem. Gargoyles are freaking good!

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Spoiler:

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.

Great tactica, tag.

I will put a link to this tactica from the opening post on p.1.

 ductvader wrote:
Anyone want to offer up what they think a good theoretical cost for stealers would be?

(Disregarding broody completely as he adds too many variables)

tag8833 wrote:

Thanks. I'm looking forward to a Dimacharon Tactica once someone has the opportunity to figure it out fully.

I was going to run your Flying Circus + Dima list against the Triptide tau list, but he specifically ask for my TAC list. He's going to tweak the list, and then I let loose the Dimas.

 ductvader wrote:
Anyone want to offer up what they think a good theoretical cost for stealers would be?

(Disregarding broody completely as he adds too many variables)

tag8833 wrote:

Termagants are a much different situation for many reasons. Here are a few.
1) Termagants aren't overcosted
2) Termagant do their damage via shooting, and thus don't take as many casualties.
3) Termagants are a much, much lower target priority.
4) A devourer gant does 3 times the damage output of a fleshgant at 1.5 times the range.
5) Fleshborer gants usually don't do enough attacks to do the job without upgrading.
6) The offense / survivability ratio on fleshgants is skew toward survivability not offense, so adding offense to balance that out is a good thing.

But, as I said, you could choose to take Scy Tals on your Genestealers if you want. It just makes me wonder, what is in your meta where Genestealers aren't doing enough attacks already?

but more often than not they are winning combats too quickly making them vulnerable to shooting on my opponent's phase.

There really isn't anything in my meta where I feel like "Gee... I wish I had more attacks on my genestealers."

 SHUPPET wrote:
For the cost of the model again Devourers triple your damage output instead of doubling it. .... It's no comparison to Scytals imo

Gazra wrote:
It seems the conventional wisdom is that Tervigon's are bad, but is it possible to build them in a way to make them less sucky? I ask this as someone just starting their Tyranid army trying to figure out what to buy, knowing the answer will probably be no.

What if you added Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, and maybe even Electroshock Grubs to it? It seems that doing so would make this thing a pretty effective vehicle hunter.
Thoughts?

coredump wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

Termagants are a much different situation for many reasons. Here are a few.
1) Termagants aren't overcosted
2) Termagant do their damage via shooting, and thus don't take as many casualties.
3) Termagants are a much, much lower target priority.
4) A devourer gant does 3 times the damage output of a fleshgant at 1.5 times the range.
5) Fleshborer gants usually don't do enough attacks to do the job without upgrading.
6) The offense / survivability ratio on fleshgants is skew toward survivability not offense, so adding offense to balance that out is a good thing.

1) Then don't take stealers in the first place, Scy Tals are an easy way of getting more attacks that are costed *less* than standard attacks
2) What? Of course gaunts take casualties, thats why no one ever goes *all* devourers, in order to absorb some damage with the cheap gaunts. In fact, it is *easier* to damage the gaunts, since they are not getting locked into combat so everyone can shoot them.
3) Not once you give them devourers.... Go ahead and plop down 20-30 gaunts with devourers, see how 'low' they are prioritized...
4) For 4 points, you get 2 more attacks, for 8 points you get 2 more attacks and *2* more wounds.
So (roughly), for 50% of a stealer you can double its attacks, for 100% of a stealer you can double attacks and wounds.
For 100% of a gaunt you can triple its attacks, for 200% of a gaunt you can triple attacks and wounds. The ratios are *very* similar.
5) So get more fleshborer gaunts.... you get more damage *and* more wounds. Your tactica advises larger stealer broods... so obviously smaller stealer broods don't get the job done either.
6) T3 6+ save is skewed towards survivable? They are crap at killing, they are crap at surviving...

Do you *never* have stealers take more than one round to kill the enemy? Do you *never* multi-assault? (Your tactica suggests it, ST stealers are better at this)

Did you skip over the comparison I did? 17 stealers vs 15+7ST, which will do better? Yes my brood has fewer wounds, but it takes *12 dead* before it matters. Why are you basing decisions when the only improvement is after you lose 80% of the brood?

But, as I said, you could choose to take Scy Tals on your Genestealers if you want. It just makes me wonder, what is in your meta where Genestealers aren't doing enough attacks already?

More attacks lets you target more things, lets you multiassault more confidently, lets you still kill more when you taken casualties. Why would I *not* want to make them better? I lose almost nothing important in terms us survivability, and gain in attacks; what is not to like?

but more often than not they are winning combats too quickly making them vulnerable to shooting on my opponent's phase.

The Scytals don't add many attacks on the charge, They add more in subsequent rounds, so you are *not* more likely to be vulnerable, but you are more likely to kill them off in your opponents turn if you have more attacks.

There really isn't anything in my meta where I feel like "Gee... I wish I had more attacks on my genestealers."

Then take broods of 10, or 5.... you take 15 because you need enough attacks after some die on the way in. If you are getting there with more than enough attacks, take fewer models.

Look, both of us are calculating that some of these stealers are just bullet sponges... they will die on the way in, or in the first round or so of combat. The question is how to best outfit the remainder. If 5 are likely to be sponges.... you want to add 12 more, I want to add 10 more, but give 7 STs.
Lets say we lose those 5 on the way in/overwatch.... Your brood does 36 attacks, mine does 37 attacks.
In return they kill 3 more.
Next round your brood does 18 attacks, mine does 21.

Yes 2 wounds matter, but by the time those two wounds matter, the brood is almost destroyed. The extra attacks matter *all the time*. You choose to make a decimated brood better, I choose to make it better while its still big enough to actually fight.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
For the cost of the model again Devourers triple your damage output instead of doubling it. .... It's no comparison to Scytals imo

Then you are not comparing it correctly. The ratios are almost exactly the same.
The gaunts fare a bit better, but the stealer attacks get to be used twice a turn, and the gaunt attacks only once a turn.

I provided the actual comparison above.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

deekthegreat wrote:
So can anybody here tell me how area effects work in transports since I guess I'm blind and can't find the page that says anything in the Brb. The hierophant has an upgrade that will allow it to become a transport with the assault vehicle rules. A reference to page# in the rule book would be awesome thanks

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

Most of the other Tyranid players at my group do, though I made my own using some spare Harpy gun arms from my Hive Crone.


All you need to do is cut off the tab that the gun barrels fit over and glue on a pair of devourer cones - one on the stump and the other where the "hose" from the gun barrels attaches with a bit of greenstuff to fill the gap. After that, just trim down the ammunition sacs to fit with the wings and it works lovely.

Devourers triple (300%) the damage output of Termagants and also increase their range by 50%.
Scything Talons increase the damage output of Genestealers by 50% with no other benefit.

100 points of each.
Fleshborer Gant: 2.08 Dead marines
Devourer Gant: 3.13 Dead marines
Base Stealers: 2.65 Dead marines
Scytal Stealer: 3.09 Dead marines
So a relative increase of killing power of 50.5% for gants, and 16.6% for Genestealers.

Overall, upgraded genestealers kill 1.3% less marines per point spent on them than Devourer Gants, While base genestealers kill 18.2% more marines than Fleshgants per point. Overall Genestealers are more killy, though this isn't a great comparison because it is shooting vs assault.

So Devourer gants are more survivable than non-upgraded genestealers from a points to point comparison. Therefore, running pure Devourer gants is a better points investment than running Genestealers at all.

I would propose that a squad of 50/50 Flesh/devil gants is about the ratio we want. 0.074.

tag8833 wrote:

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Spoiler:

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.