Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As a former GK and current Deathwing player, its a sad thing, but Termies just aren't what they used to be anymore, even more so for Dark Angels. DW (as far as I can tell) was never a top tier competitive army, but at least back in 5th it was priced right that if the player was good, he could hang in their with the top armies (in one 5e tournament I saw a DW army table on turn 3 a CSM lashwhip army that had mopped the floor with me when I fought them (DoA BA).

But in 6th, with almost all troops cheaper across the board, and Tau and Eldar having access to massive amounts of AP2 weapons, can terminators even cut it anymore? And is reducing their points cost, say by 5 points at most, a possible solution? Or perhaps increasing their ++ save???

I'd rather they gained more Special Rules to justify their cost, but I agree that they've fallen a bit behind. They're still decent in the current BT Codex without being OP, so perhaps everyone ough to be able to take 5-man squads with 2 Special Weapons and a selection of USRs?

No, no and no. Terminators are just fine the way they are. No matter which way you price Loyalist Termies, people are still going to take Hammernators with a 2+/3++, even at 45pts like BA. The only thing that would stop it is giving every model in the game AP2 Assault 10 guns and/or Termies going up to ~65ppm, in which case many Vanilla players will simply ragequit and GW loses their largest customer base.

In any case, Termies are just fine in their niche role for the Vanilla codex, that is being durable. So what if a few armies have some defense? Tau are massercred in assault and by anything AP4 or better like HB. Eldar, apart from Wave Serpents and Wraithknights, blow over to a stiff breeze, and even those 2 will go down if you throw the right toys.

If there was a vote, then I would say yes to a points reduction, albeit only a minor one.

There are many 'loyalist' marine codices however, and my comment comes from a DA perspective.

people are still going to take Hammernators with a 2+/3++, even at 45pts like BA.

DW are not this cheap however. At around the 40pts mark they would be fair, maybe a little less. But currently they are over-costed, even compared to the outdated SM and BA codices. The extra USR's they have do not warrant this price.

I think terminators in the upcoming SM dex should have a slight price drop in the face of massed ap2 fire, armies with greater rates of fire, and Shuriken weapons of 6th edition.

DA should have the same, or possibly slightly more points cost, but this is just a pipe dream.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
As a former GK and current Deathwing player, its a sad thing, but Termies just aren't what they used to be anymore, even more so for Dark Angels. DW (as far as I can tell) was never a top tier competitive army, but at least back in 5th it was priced right that if the player was good, he could hang in their with the top armies (in one 5e tournament I saw a DW army table on turn 3 a CSM lashwhip army that had mopped the floor with me when I fought them (DoA BA).

But in 6th, with almost all troops cheaper across the board, and Tau and Eldar having access to massive amounts of AP2 weapons, can terminators even cut it anymore? And is reducing their points cost, say by 5 points at most, a possible solution? Or perhaps increasing their ++ save???

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
As a former GK and current Deathwing player, its a sad thing, but Termies just aren't what they used to be anymore, even more so for Dark Angels. DW (as far as I can tell) was never a top tier competitive army, but at least back in 5th it was priced right that if the player was good, he could hang in their with the top armies (in one 5e tournament I saw a DW army table on turn 3 a CSM lashwhip army that had mopped the floor with me when I fought them (DoA BA).

But in 6th, with almost all troops cheaper across the board, and Tau and Eldar having access to massive amounts of AP2 weapons, can terminators even cut it anymore? And is reducing their points cost, say by 5 points at most, a possible solution? Or perhaps increasing their ++ save???

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

Two things.
1. Codexes are not inherently balanced with each other, guardsmen cost 5 points each, cultists with autoguns cost 5 points each despite only being able to take 1 special weapon per 10 guys, while guardsmen can take a heavy and special weapon per squad, plus free frag grenades and better armour. Deathwing terminators with a TH/SS cost 49 points despite the only advantage they have over their C:SM counterparts being Deathwing assault and inner circle special rules, which don't warrant that much added cost.
2. CSM have access to marks and icons, they cost about the same, lose some special rules, but gain some nice options. Also, although I don't have enough experience facing them to make this argument, I am sure many people will say they are overpriced.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
As a former GK and current Deathwing player, its a sad thing, but Termies just aren't what they used to be anymore, even more so for Dark Angels. DW (as far as I can tell) was never a top tier competitive army, but at least back in 5th it was priced right that if the player was good, he could hang in their with the top armies (in one 5e tournament I saw a DW army table on turn 3 a CSM lashwhip army that had mopped the floor with me when I fought them (DoA BA).

But in 6th, with almost all troops cheaper across the board, and Tau and Eldar having access to massive amounts of AP2 weapons, can terminators even cut it anymore? And is reducing their points cost, say by 5 points at most, a possible solution? Or perhaps increasing their ++ save???

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

Do people even take Chaos terminators? I've not seen anyone field them since the 6th ed codex dropped...

And the 2+/3++ might be durable, but volume of fire will do them in everytime, and that's what we see at the moment.

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

Balancing a unit against an existing bad unit does not create balance. Both of them should see a points drop.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

But in 6th, with almost all troops cheaper across the board, and Tau and Eldar having access to massive amounts of AP2 weapons, can terminators even cut it anymore?

No.

And now the TH/SS flavor is going UP in points.

I still play my deathwing quite often and can tell you that 44pts per termie is massively overcosted, deathwing termies should be 38 each, sm 36, chaos are correctly costed, but there upgrades are too costly, dw knights are also costed correctly.

Th/ss should be 45 each

 Formosa wrote:
I still play my deathwing quite often and can tell you that 44pts per termie is massively overcosted, deathwing termies should be 38 each, sm 36, chaos are correctly costed, but there upgrades are too costly, dw knights are also costed correctly.

Th/ss should be 45 each

I actually think CSM Termies should be cheaper, 30 pts even instead of 31, and yes, there upgrades should be cheaper, giving them powerfists should be 5 points instead of 7...

Termies now are priced due to the increased survivability UN combat, but gw hasn't realised that they will never get there.

i dont think they are over pointed, i have 30 termies 1 librarian and 2 tac squads and they SMASH every army ive came up against with this army list(about 40 games with this list)
they are really good and hard to kill

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
i dont think they are over pointed, i have 30 termies 1 librarian and 2 tac squads and they SMASH every army ive came up against with this army list(about 40 games with this list)
they are really good and hard to kill

And what is the list exactly?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

Do people even take Chaos terminators? I've not seen anyone field them since the 6th ed codex dropped...

And the 2+/3++ might be durable, but volume of fire will do them in everytime, and that's what we see at the moment.

No people do not take Chaos terminators. Unless it is to drop 3 combi meltas behind a tank. The title of this thread is making loyalist terminators cheaper. I completely oppose making loyalist terminators cheaper, but leaving chaos terminators as is.

IMHO stormbolters/combi bolters need to be better and perhaps a slight point decrease for both stock TDA for Loyalists AND Chaos.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
As a former GK and current Deathwing player, its a sad thing, but Termies just aren't what they used to be anymore, even more so for Dark Angels. DW (as far as I can tell) was never a top tier competitive army, but at least back in 5th it was priced right that if the player was good, he could hang in their with the top armies (in one 5e tournament I saw a DW army table on turn 3 a CSM lashwhip army that had mopped the floor with me when I fought them (DoA BA).

But in 6th, with almost all troops cheaper across the board, and Tau and Eldar having access to massive amounts of AP2 weapons, can terminators even cut it anymore? And is reducing their points cost, say by 5 points at most, a possible solution? Or perhaps increasing their ++ save???

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

Do people even take Chaos terminators? I've not seen anyone field them since the 6th ed codex dropped...

And the 2+/3++ might be durable, but volume of fire will do them in everytime, and that's what we see at the moment.

Of the volume of fire I can think of, I am most familiar with Eldar and it's most likely where the most accurate representation of volume of fire will be found, although Tau Fire Warriors will likely do a better job at it when you start factoring in range.
A Shuriken Catapult has 12,9% chance of killing a Terminator. This means that you need roughly 4 Guardians or Avengers per Terminator to survive into range. This is an investment of 90% for Guardians or 130% for Avengers per terminator killed.
A Guardian or Avenger in close combat has 2 chances of 3.24% chance of killing a Terminator on overwatch and one chance of 2.78% chance of wounding the Terminator in close combat (Dire Avengers most likely get two chances the first round of combat). This is such a high investment of models per Terminator that actually fitting them all in to be in base contact will be impossible since models of other squads do not lend extra combat range.
A Terminator has 44.44% chance of killing a Guardian per shot and 22.22% chance of killing a Dire Avenger per shot. This is an investment of approximately 500% for each Guardian killed and 600% for Dire Avengers.
In close combat each Terminator is expected to survive retribution and is expected to kill a Dire Avenger or Guardian with 41.67% of their attacks.

You need to figure out ways to get them into close combat or to stay away from the Guardians. The Dire Avengers is your big problem since they have sufficient range and movement to be able to bridge your range advantage while the Guardians you can manoeuvre so that you either force them to seek a different target or be trampled in close combat.
In this match up a Tactical Marine suffers 83,33% higher casualties against the Eldar and have an expected 50% lower rate of fire against Dire Avengers and are weaker inside the melee threat range due to not having assault weapons as well as risking taking real losses in close combat since the Eldar are more capable of bringing high initiative AP3 weapons than they are high initiative AP2 weapons (even if the Dire Sword is a beast). Tactical Marines are most likely able to sweep defeated Guardians or Dire Avengers although with only 22.22% chance per model/attack of killing a Guardian and 14,81% chance of killing a Dire Avenger you'll be harder pressed even though the Eldar models sit pretty at 6.48% chance of killing a Tactical Marine.

Even if these numbers hint at that a Terminator is worth about two tacticals while costing three, the comparison goes south when you throw in a Wraithlord, Leman Russ or Hive Tyrant. The Tyranid creatures especially.

Bottom line is, Terminators are scary and worth their points. You just can't make an army of them and expect to wade through the enemy infantry with them. Choose your targets better and support them with other units to deal with threats appropriately.

And to who ever said that codexes aren't inherently balanced unit for unit between each other: this is 40k, the rules are inherently not balanced at all. You're just not looking at the correct unit here.

Terminators are built for one thing: being tough. 2+ armor saves help with that, but considering that I can put out four AP2 blasts, 12 AP2 shots, plus around 40 kinda-rending shots in my eldar list, not to mention the two S8 AP2 large blasts in my Tau list, Terminators aren't the workhorse they used to be.

To be honest, the entire meta has changed. Are terminators good? Yes. So are tactical marines, and they're 1/3 of the points. The problem lies with their versatility. Why do normal tactical squads get a special weapon and a heavy weapon while Terminators only get one of two very specific heavy weapons? The Assault Cannon and CML are both good, but why would I take either if I have Landspeeders or a Stormtalon?

There's no reason to take them. Just because they're sturdy doesn't mean that they're good. So yes, they need a decrease by about 3 points along with more heavy weapon options.

I've had great sucess with my terminators, With Homers I'm able to drop them in where I want with a rhino deployed tact squad, and unleash a fiery storm of lead at whatever unit I've decided should die this turn. While the AP2 weapons can come out of nowhere along with rend, so far careful placement, behind buildings out of LoS or with blocking units providing a greater threat to the vehicles or other units they tend to kill at least their value in the games I play. They usually get wiped shortly after a turn or so, but the distraction from them being there near infantry tends to free up other units to land blows where it counts or make moves across areas.

Right, so the first problem with termies is the proliferation of excellent AP2 weapons or mass S5/pseudo rending shots that put a lot of reliable wounds down range. This is a general meta shift that should be considered but not used solely as a point of balance.

The second problem are the separate entries for Assault and Tac variants in the C:SM codex. This leads tac termies behind for a number of reasons, and favours assault variants for a few 3++ saves and a LC here or there for horde control.

The third problem is trying to balance it between CSM and C:SM (and DA to an extent).

A small points reduction for both CSM and C:SM would be a start, but ideally not below 30ppm. Then allow C:SM to have a single entry for termies that can take any combo of weapons, but still one heavy weapon for every models. I'd also be tempted to give them sternguard special ammo for 1 or 2pts extra per model. The issue here though is keeping sternguard balanced with a theoretical termie shooting special ammo.

Termies are mostly balanced, but are seeing some issues with Tau and Eldar. They don't need a total overhaul, as 2+/5++ with PF and Stormbolter for 40pts is still a good deal when you take a normal marine and give him equivalent wargear options. However, a squad of 35ppm with power sword and storm bolters with various options for the loyalists would be alright. Make PF 5pts, TH/SS 10pts, special ammo 1 or 2ppm, and boom. Versatile unit with better shooting, good durability with a few 3++, and about the same cost as before, if not cheaper.

Then...errr...give CSM VotLW standard? I'm not all that versed in that codex, so I'm a little lost. Maybe allow one unit to be scoring if a lord is chosen in termie armour. Maybe a viable option to increase their invuln without forced in to a mark.

No, because if Terminators went down in price, people would go back to using them instead of buying assault centurions.

Yes, Terminators in general need a points reduction. They have awful resiliency and often a much lower damage output than tacticals and cannot sweep. Their only advantage is costly melee weapons. A 2+AS isn't great for a 40pt single wound model. It take 18 BS4 Bolter Shots to kill a Terminator, It takes 26 BS4 Boltershot to kill an equal points cost in tactical marines. It takes 2.7 BS4 Lascannons to kill a Tactical Terminator, 5.4 to kill a THSS and only 5.1 to kill an equal point cost in Tactials, 7.7 if they have cover. Terminators also put out a lower volume of fire than Tacticals, and don't have access to many special weapons. The only place Terminators surpass Tacticals is in assault, but they rarely ever can make it there.



I've posted this multiple places, Terminators should be priced as follows to bring their survivability closer to tacticals while helping to offset their relatively low firepower...

Terminator with Power Sword and Stormbolter... 30pts
Terminator with Power Fist and Stormbolter or Lightning Claws... 35pts
Terminator with Thunderhammer and Stormshield... 40pts

Other Terminators should be priced off of this base point, including Chaos Terminators, GKs, etc.

Thinking about it, given their battlefield role, I could see Tactical (and ONLY tactical) Terminators as Scoring.

Personally, I would like to see Tac Termies have a reduction and complete overhaul, make them something similar to CSM Terminators, where you can have a larger mix of weapons. As they stand now, they're pretty lacklustre, certainly when compared to Assault Termies and Centurions. Drop the basic costs by 5pts with basic loadout of Power Weapon and Storm Bolter, can be upgraded to PF/CF, Heavy and Combi-weapons, or Specialist Ammo for the appropriate costs.

Also it would be nice to see a reintroduction of Terminator Command Squads. Same as a normal Termie Squad, but can take Champions, Apothecaries and Banner Bearers etc. I know Dark Angels already have DW Command but they'd be good in normal Marine armies IMO.

Terminator Command Squads are an easy enough thing to implement.

Command Squad
- Options:
- May exchange Power Armour, Bolter, Frag and Krak grenades for Terminator Armour, a Storm Bolter and a Power Weapon.

Then follow the logical upgrade list.

Think Termis are overcosted? Try running sanguinary guard!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Think Termis are overcosted? Try running sanguinary guard!

Doubly so now that vanilla marine Honour Guard, which jumps packs aside have the exact same stats and gear, are only 25 points!

Honour Guard need a Chapter Master tax, and can't be scoring units with a 2+ save and Jump Pack, accurate Deep Strike with melta weaponry, or Assault Bolters with AP4, or nipples.

 Deadshot wrote:
Honour Guard need a Chapter Master tax, and can't be scoring units with a 2+ save and Jump Pack, accurate Deep Strike with melta weaponry, or Assault Bolters with AP4, or nipples.

SG can't be scoring either without a Dante tax, who right now is crap compared to what a Chapter Master can kitted out to do.

Dante doesn't cost the same level of points and has unique benefits in the forn of reducing enemy character stats, and no scatter on the Deep Strike with a Melta Pistol. Basically a guarenteed pop on the tank and can make characters think twice. Even Lysander will think twice when he's only got 2 Wounds, 2 Attacks and WS 5.

Are you therefore suggesting that sanguinary guard are worth 40pts a model?