Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay so here's a little history lesson to help with the purpose of this question:

After Horus declared war and the big seven year war broke out we would find that he Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands took a major hit on good o'l Istvaan V. Old Dorn got the survivors and made a retreat back to Terra. He then went on to make the announcement to get all the still loyal Legions back to Terra to back up big E and everyone else on Terra.

Now Grand Papa Smurf himself Roboute Guilliman was dealing with the Word Bearers at the time along with iirc World Eaters as well(Primarchs included). So sadly they REALLY had their hands tied up at the moment so they couldn't hurry over.

Leman Russ and his Legion were just finishing up Magnus' sons when they got the call. But just as they were on their way they got intercepted by Alpha Legion. Tying up the Wolves and forcing them into Hi and Run tactics sadly because they were attacking the smaller fleet. Alpharius then moved on to attack the White Scars who were nearby at the time. But as much as Khan wished to help Russ out he had gotten the call from Dorn so he had to rush back to Terra after giving Russ the heads up. Which after Russ managed to flip the table on Alpha made the rush on over to Terra. Sadly the had already hit the fan...

Dark Angels sadly were being tied up by the Night Lords at the time. So they were in the same bind as the Wolves. The Imperial Fists were countered by Iron Warriors along side them as well. Granted the Imperial Fists managed to survive the attack by the IW, then scattered Primarch Perturabo's fleet before making the mad dash over to Terra. All this happening at the same time with the wolves and smurfs mind you.

Once all was said and done only the White Scars and Blood Angels along with the Imperial Fists to stand with Dorn. The Wolves and Lion and Smurfs being tied up with huge issues.

Sanguinus stared down Daemon Prince Angron and actually made him back away. The Angel would soon be a shinning symbol as he held the line, shoving back the forces of Chaos along side his Legion. Khan using his wits and his legions unmatched speed seized a space port and regained a defense area to better hold thing together. Summary these two were kicking major !

Old Sangi took on a big blood thirster and snapped his back after a brutal aerial battle, then things drove to the closing point.

Horus challenged Big E to a final battle since the Wolves and Lion, along with Papa smurf weren't too far behind. Accepting Big E took Sangi and Dorn along with some of their forces and went to Horus' battle barge. Horus had scattered them however, Sangi the first to meet his brother. The Angel was too weak from the 55 day siege and the huge battle with the Blood Thirster...so the angel fell quickly to the fresh and full Horus. Big E fought, he fell but not before firing off a massive psychic mind lance that pierced and destroyed Horus. The rest is well...history/present.

Now all that aside back to the Op: Had Russ and Lion been able to get there before Big E went to the battle barge and helped out with the battle on Terra...how differently would things have gone? Or to be more exact...if the Lion and Russ were able to fight along side Sanguinus would that have changed? Or would all 3 have died?

Well Horus would have been attacked on 2 fronts. Possibly not enticing the Emperor to teleport to the Vengeful Spirit. He could have possibly abandon the attack, leaving those on the surface to their own fate, fleeing to the Eye.

The Emperor and Horus could be alive to this day.

That would be quite an alternative timeline.

I am still only on 'Fulgrim' so I wont weigh in here.

What I would say is that this needs to be put in a SPOILER tag. And put something like that in the title too. Not everyone will be aware of the events of the Heresy.

40k would be less grim dark i assume

 HerbaciousT wrote:
I am still only on 'Fulgrim' so I wont weigh in here.

What I would say is that this needs to be put in a SPOILER tag. And put something like that in the title too. Not everyone will be aware of the events of the Heresy.

I think most people would be aware of the basic story behind the Heresy and most of what the OP has said is previously already established material and way before the Heresy series even started. He is also only going into a hypothetical situation that doesn't occur in the current Heresy timeline. So, I think he should be fine.

Here is the original background story by Bill King for those who aren't in the know and would like to find out a bit more.

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Sanguinus stared down Daemon Prince Angron and actually made him back away.

I've never seen this before - where's it from?
(I can't look at the link Pilau posted if its in there - workblocked)

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Sanguinus stared down Daemon Prince Angron and actually made him back away.

I've never seen this before - where's it from?
(I can't look at the link Pilau posted if its in there - workblocked)

There was a clamour on the walls as Sanguinius and the Blood Angels arrived. Standing on the wall, the angel winged man glared on Angron with angry contempt. For long moments their gazes locked. Each Primarch seemed to be measuring the other, searching for chinks in the armour, for any sign of weakness and lack of resolve. Who knows what they saw there? Perhaps they communicated telepathically, brother Primarch to brother Primarch. The truth will never be known. Eventually Angron turned and walked back to his lines. He told his troops that there would be no surrender; they should kill everyone they found within the palace. No stone should be left upon turned.

Doesn't quite make him back away, just makes him realise that there will be no surrender.

i suppose only dan abnett knows truly what happens?

Sometimes less is more. The troops would have been valuable no doubt but the events would of played out differently and perhaps less favourable? maybe Horus would of got the 'flock' out of there to head to the eye instead of having a scrap with Big E?

Dropping the shields on his battle barge to invite the emperor to come and face him was the last throw of the dice for horus. i think he knew that if loyalist reinforcements reached terra his gambit to punch out terra would have been over. I doubt the big E would have boarded the barge if he had known that fresh troops were inbound. Horus had to win, and he had to win fast.

So, if Russ and the Lion had reached Terra, and the emperor decided not to board the battle barge, you would have had a force of 5 legions versus the traior forces, Horus would have been forced to retreat or go down fighting, and the civil war would have been a far more messy affair. but the imperium would still have sanguinus, would still have the emperor, and would still have space marine legions rather than the bathwater substitute master minded by girlyman

In a vacuum, the Dark Angels and Wolves showing up would have massively turned the tide in the Emperor's favour. For a start, the SW would have been able to dedicate their rune priests to containing Horus's demonic forces and warp-gates, allowing the Emperor to fully get his head in the game of hitting stuff, rather than messing around with psychicness. Russ and the wolves were one of the most experience anti-marine legions, having all but destroyed the Thousand Sons.

The DA would have just been another half a legion to plough through, making the defence stronger, and of course, if Lion himself were to somehow make it there then he would have probably managed to save Sanguinis. As far as I am aware, I think Lion was one of the best swordsmen of the Primarchs, and one of the best duellists. If him and Sanguinis had taken on Horus, he would be fighting 2 of the most powerful and skilled primarchs, and would have either beaten (but probably not killed) them, but be would be in no shape to take on the emperor and win, or they would have just killed him outright.

However, you have to bear in mind that if the Angels and Wolves had made for Terra faster, the Night lords and Alpha legion would have also reached it, so rather than giving one side an advantage, both would be +2 legions and +2 primarchs, in whicj case it just ups the scale. At that point, though, there would be no reason for Horus to feel the need to end the battle in single combat aboard the ship (if indeed that was why he lowered the shields), so the siege would have just dragged on an on, both sides too strong to budge until the events at Calth finished up and either the WE and Word Bearers or the Ultras would arrive, bringing massive reinforcement to one side and probably deciding the battle.

it is very interesting to hear all these theories. I always thought that is Lion and Russ had arrived sooner that the battle would have turned to the side of IoM. I can see Russ helping out against the Daemons and stuff. The Lion going in to back up Sanguinis. and with Guiliman not to far behind I can just see this getting crazier. Now initially what I had meant was that when the SW and DA made their trip after dealing with their respected foes at the time, that their warp jump had gotten them there much earlier, like I'd say before Sanguinis fought the big o'l blood thirster. Like if those two had arrived then, with Guilliman and his Marines also coming in very soon, how differently would the siege have turned out? Granted during the time frame I believe Sanguinis was already fighting the Blood Thirster...But hey ths a hypothetical scenario.

Well, if the SW and DA had already dispatched their respective foes then obviously things would be very different, with the IOM getting all the benefits but none of the drawbacks of having 2 extra legions/primarchs. Going just by primarchs, Lion and Russ would be a HUGE advantage, 2 of the best combat primarchs who could take pretty much any of the chaos ones that were present, even in DP form and especially backed up by each other. Their inter-legionary rivalry would have made them fight even harder as well.

If they had arrived before the siege, then they would contribute massively to the defences, if they were just a bit earlier and still had to break the siege things might be a little closer, as Perturabo would have certainly prepared some defence from behind if he knew they were coming. Again, I think it would likely go into deadlock until whoever won at Calth turned up, as the Word Bearers and Ultras were among the largest legions, especially considering DA lost half their number on Caliban and SW were not a notably large legion to begin with.

That said, the knowledge of reinforcements coming would have certainly spurred Horus into action faster, perhaps leading to his 'all or nothing' challenge sooner, which would determine the outcome of the battle. The biggest variable with the battle of Terra in my opinion is the fact that both Sanguinis and The Emperor went one-on-one with Horus. If either of them had taken him on together or with Dorn, things would have ended badly for the Arch-traitor. Similarly, then, if the other primarchs had been there, there would be more of a chance of two reaching him at the same time, at which point he would almost always lose.

Really, the only thing the Imperials lacked at Terra was numbers, and that was their downfall. They had defences and tactical command from Dorn, an inspirational front-line icon and combat monster in Sanguinis, and the ability to respond to threats fast from Khan and the scars. The problem was that it was 3 legions up against 5, I think (I can't remember exactly which ones, I think it was SOH, WE, IW, DG and TS, although I'm not sure on the last one, if anyone knows for certain then please correct me).

In that case, the arrival of any additional legion would have pretty much tipped the scales for either side.

On a similar note, what do people think would be the most significant change in the heresy? If the SW had gone traitor or the ultras had been taken out at Calth, or if the rebels had lost at Istvaan, or any one change, what do you reckon the effect would be, both for the HH and 40k?

Hmm...I think everyone could agree that if the Smurfs had fallen things wouldn't be as they are...I hate to admit it but there wouldn't have been anyone to take up the leadership role like Guililman did. Wouldn't be a Codex Astates...The injured Legions wouldn't have been aided or reinforced by the ultramarines...damage control would have bee far less efficient.....Summary Grim dark would have been a bit more darker for Humanity.

if the Wolves had turned to Chaos I think that would have been very bad for the Imperium. As said in Blood of Asaheim the Space Wolves help out a great deal by sending back up where need way. Armageddon would have seen even more people slaughtered by the hands of the Inquistion out of he notion of them being tainted. During the 13th Black Crusade those guardsmen that were saved by the 13th Company would have been destroyed...Mymeara would have no doubt gone to the Eldar because the spear head of Bran Redmaw's great company wouldn't have been there to lay aid...The Wolves while yes can cause a lot of trouble have also helped out a great deal in the millennial time span. if they had turned to Chaos then that would just be that many more Space Marines on the side of chaos and that much more of a bite. Would mean pretty bad for Imperium if you ask me.

As for the Istvaan V incident if the rebels had lost then the Loyalist would have had that many more numbers for the defense of Terra while the Traitors would have had that much less. With more bodies and boots on Terra they could have held out longer and stronger. Heck with all that they could have probably held out long enough for back up to arrive and possibly hold down more locations better. Because if they had won then again there would have been more potential for them to have held their own which in turn probably would have forced Horus to change his plans if not go for the challenge sooner. As for how it would have factored into 40K well I can't really say...would have just been more fluff with bigger numbers really. Would have meant that there would have just been that many less Ultra Marines jumping to legions and chapters to help out since the others probably would have been doing pretty good. Combine that with the potential aid the SW, DA and the Smurfs then I'd wager Terra would have been saved and Horus would have had to make the challenge sooner but had had either one more or so Primarch to deal with on top of Big E. Even worse for him with The Lion and Russ right around the corner with Papa Smurf running in right behind them. We'd have one more Primarch alive I bet...maybe even the Emperor. The Inquistion wouldn't have done all the horrible and if you ask me heretical things they had done because Big E would have been there to keep an eye on them. Humanity would have been a lot brighter and filled with a lot more hope. The very thing Big E wanted.

That's what I think at least. Also dude I exalted your posts man very awesomely written and exciting man ^^

The fluff to the game would be radically different than the one we're playing now.

This makes for good reading, I can't really add anything that hasn't been covered. I like the idea of Calth deciding the overall result, with either Smurfs or Word Bearers zooming to the rescue. Both sides looking to the skies in hope, waiting to see whether blue or red Drop Pods will fall...

One of the few alternate Heresy hypothesies that I think would be just as cool as the canon.

I honestly don't think it would be as clear cut as Sanguinius > Angron. Bear in mind Angron is now the first Daemon Pri(nce/march) in 40k, and according to some sources and people, superior to Anggrath, who is superior to Ka'Bandha who Sanguinius fought and lost against intially and had his legs broken during the 3rd fight on Terra. Hence, Angron > Sanguinius.

However, if Lion and Russ were to show, I reckon that's a hefty advantage vs Daemons, with the Lion and all his experience from childhood, and Russ with all his anti-Daemon/Psyker powers amd Runic Weapons. But in a straight up fight vs Angron, Russ would definately lose (he lost against normal Angron) and Lion wouldn't have a chance.

However, the advantage of 2, even under strength, Legions to aid the Imperials and catch the rebels in a war on 2 fronts would have destroyed the Traitor fleet.

Whether or not the extra Primarchs would have aided against Horus in the battle, I have no clue. On one hand, if the reached the room, they may have been able to help and they all survive long enough for the Emperor to finish it. Alternatively, the Emperor, being compassionate towards Horus, may have ordered a ceasefire of sorts and fought one on one, which Horus may have ignored and destroyed one of the Primarch. On the other hand, they may have never reached the room at all. Remember that Dorn had also gone aboard the flagship and he got lost en route, so its possible that Lion and Russ would likewise be lost.

In terms of Guilliman, also remember that since Lorgar and Angron had left to attend the Siege, Guilliman could have easily left part of his enormous Legion and travelled to Terra to oversea the tactical planning and strategies with Lion. I recall reading once (possibly 5th ed BRB?) That Horus sent Lorgar there because he knew the numbers of the XIII would end the Siege in short order.

Sanguinius was knocked down and was actually just a bit shocked by Ka'Bandha. Once he got back into it he sent Ka'Bandha packing with a broke back. This wasn't a matter of Sanguinius was more powerful then Daemon Angron.

As for the battle against Normal Angron and Russ...Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron. Angron even called him out on it/was able to feel that. This wouldn't be a battle of lessons and one guy taking a fall/not going at 100% kill mode. Oooooh no this would be full on fight. As said Russ has the tools to fight Daemon Angron so it wouldn't be an absolute win for Angron. it'd be an intense battle with both sides able to take a win. Never underestimate the Wolves or Russ. Same goes for the Blood Angels and Sanguinius...knowing you're fighting your brother who has raised their blade to your father can be one hell of a drive for victory...also one hell of an ignition for one's rage...

But yeah Guilliman could have made his way over on the double so I could see how on top of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves legions, now with the Papa Smurf helping out in the tactics and everything with Sanguinius and Russ along with Dorn and Khan having their boots on the ground then the Siege would have probably been going to the IoM.

As for the big duel on the battle barge I can see Big E calling for a cease fire...Going into the 1V1 with Horus...Horus trying to take out a Primarch then and there...Or it could have also lead up to Horus dealing with 2 Primarchs as appose to 1. After all if 2 + Big Ewere able to get 1 of them to meet up with Horus before Big E then most likely 4 Primarchs running around with their respected body guards/awesome guys with them...Well two would/could have met up with him.

Sanguinis vs demonic Angron would be one hell of a fight, to say the least, as would Russ vs the same. But as mentioned above, the addition of almost a full legion between the Wolves and Angels would probably have more of an impact than a duel between 2 primarchs.

As for the duel on Horus's ship, the Emperor only launched that attack as a desperate last gasp for victory, knowing there was no way that he could have won on Terra itself. Had the Wolves and Angels been able to shore up the defences or break the siege, depending on when they arrive, then there is every possibility that he would never have taken (or had to take) that gamble, and just fought off the traitors conventionally.

This would obviously have an enormous impact, as it's feasible that both both The Emperor and Horus would live to fight another day. It's impossible to really imagine what kind of effect this would have on 'modern day' 40k. However, I imagine that, as the codex was already being written, the Legions would have still broken down into Chapters. However, the Imperium would have been able to take a far more proactive role in hunting the traitors, with Sanguinis as Warmaster of a new Crusade, driving the Heretics back to the Eye of Terror. Once there, though, it's no great stretch of the imagination to see Horus galvanising the traitors and preventing the collapse of the Legions on his side. Suddenly, you've got Chaos as a unified force, rather than raiders and warbands, and they would have a real base to consolidate from, under leadership of one of the greatest commanders, who once had Terra in his grip.

Chaos would be even more of a threat, maybe even forcing the Imperium to cede an area of space to them as lost ground, but conversely, with the Primarchs, and more significantly the Emperor, at their head, the Imperium would remain far more unified and dangerous. As a side note, the Red Thirst would never have unleashed, and the Blood Angels (and their successors) would not suffer their slow diminishing of numbers, remaining one of the most powerful forces. I imagine that, with the Emperor still alive, the chances of the various Primarchs 'disappearing' after the heresy would be far less.

In other words, you have the Long War, turned up to eleven, with the powerhouses remaining on both sides, and it would just drag on and on. I can't really describe how much this would change the setting, but suffice to say it would have a very different dynamic. The Imperium would not be at its 'two minutes to midnight' position, Chaos would be united rather than scattered, and the heresy would just go on and on and on. I daren't even try to factor in the likes of the arrival of the Tyranids and the Necrons waking up, the Heresy going a different way would just make the 'current' universe so different I can make no meaningful assumptions.

While I think things would have certainly changed, I think the Emperor would still be out of the picture given that whole Golden-Throne-keeping-demons-in-the-webway thing. Someone would still have to keep that door shut and Magnus was supposed to be that deadbolt.

Although, with the Emperor free to engage the demons running a muck around in the human webway, perhaps he would've been able to stabilize it? Couple that with some of the primarchs still leading their legions and you've got a recipe for dominance, if you think about it. A legion group of space marines, a legion, whole armies being sent across the galaxy instantly?

I'm certain the heresy would end, but probably with almost the same result, just later and far more impressive. It's a fun thought.

That's a good point about the webway, it would be a massive boon if they could get it working. I still think legions would become chapters, as no one wanted to risk an entire legion going dark again, but still, Space Marines would be even more effective as the elite troops of the Imperium, able to hit anywhere, anywhen. Once the Webway was stabilised, would the Emperor not be able to leave the throne, as he'd still be alive? Also, with the Webway there would be no need for the Astronomicon eventually, so they could divert their psychic potential to helping keep the Webway stable, freeing up the Emperor to get back to running his empire.

I don't think the Heresy would end particularly fast, and only when Horus was killed, and with him being in the Eye and growing ever-stronger, that would be some feat, so the advantage given by the webway would be countered by the fact that Chaos still had a leader capable of holding them together. Chaos already have access to (more) stable warp travel, as they have some measure of control/support from Chaos. So wheras in 40k you have the Imperium that is well-led but difficult to deploy, and Chaos that has free roam of the warp but no central leadership, you've now got both sides with both leadership and mobility. The longer the war dragged on, the longer the Space Marines would have to recover their early losses from Istvaan and the like, but also the stronger the Chaos Primarchs and legions would get.

I can see the conflict escalating exponentially, both sides getting stronger, but thanks to this growing power, any resolution would be final. Either then Imperium would fall to chaos entirely, or the Traitors would be utterly destroyed. With the Emperor still alive and the Webway active, I doubt the Imperium would settle for just chasing Chaos back to the Eye of Terror, but at the same time, Horus would not rest until Terra was once more at his feet.

As they've developed Angron it doesn't make sense at all. The item about walking back to the lines.

Angron looking for surrender? Pre daemonic ascension he wouldn't have, and post betrayer? No.fething.way.

On the topic : Wolves smash into Horus' rear lines(So far in the heresy they aren't too diminished), the lion spears through, and I dunno from there.

I'm really curious into Sang V Horus. If an empowered Horus essentially curbstomps Sang, it may not have changed a thing. It may still have taken the Emperor to deal with him directly. Might just be adding two more dead primarchs. "After feeling the death of three of his mighty sons, the Emperor knew only one man could end this madness, himself."

I still rekon that, due to the power levels of the primarchs, 2 will always beat one, no matter how good that one is. While Horus is certainly one of the strongest, his brothers are by no means weak, so outnumbering him would give them a distinct advantage. They question is, would that situation ever occur, either at Terra or afterwards if we assume the Imperium won. It wasn't just luck that made sure Sanguinis, Dorn and the Emperor only met him one at a time, would anything stop that same power (chaos gods,fate, whatever) separating any number of primarchs?

Sang was pretty tired after his bout with the Blood Thirster...it's even said he was tired and drained after that battle so he had little to pretty much no chance at fighting Horus. Hence why Horus strangled him to death so easily. Now if Sang had been aided by Russ or Lion at the time then it'd be different as he'd have not been so tired. Even then he'd have a brother there to back him up and give him the chance to gain his second wind.

The effects on all this would lead to most likely as said above, lead to most of the primarchs not leaving. in the case of those mortally wounded that would come down to Guilliman and Lion. I can see Big E helping them out in those regards. Showing up to cure Guilliman and getting his best of the best if not himself to help Lion out.

Vulkan I don't know about...I mean he left and wouldn't return I think until his sons have gathered all his artifacts or something. I can see Big E telling him otherwise....

Khan would probably have his dad fish him out of the Web Way when he went chasing after those Dark Eldar so there ya go. As for Dorn and the others again Big E would be there to save the day. Same for Russ whom disappeared randomly.

The Inquistion wouldn't have gotten away with their bastardly and heretic actions of killing so many humans under bastadly notions as Big E would be there again. Heck as a whole I see things being a lot brighter in all truth thanks to The Emperor. Could even see him having his own personal big hitters being sent about to aid his sons and help the efforts and keep moral bright while making sure the IoM retains hope.

As for Chaos I think Cruz? The one who died by the assassin because he allowed her to kill him. I think he'd be dead still. Or not. who knows. I mean with the way things are I can't really say how different it'd be for them...I can see someone getting power hungry in Chaos. A traitor primarch trying to overthrow Horus or something. I mean remember there are those who say Horus was weak so I can see there being some in fighting. But Ultimately there would still be Horus in charge.

The Xenos would be in a bit more trouble if you ask me. Because now The Primarchs are up and about. Fighting battles with their sons. The Grey Knights would probably be getting better now that Big E was there and stuff. The Nids would probably be getting some more resistance and fight back same with the Necrons. But again who knows. The Grim Dark future would be brighter as a whole. But it'd also be a more intense battle....AN EXTREMELY MORE HECTIC WAR.

Also so many posts here are getting a +1 from me. Just so much awesome reading!~

I like that idea of someone turning on Horus from within his own ranks, that could make quite an interesting tale. I'm sure that the likes of Angron would be very eager to take over if Horus took the time to prepare a new crusade rather than just charging back out, whereas Magnus and Lorgar would probably be happy to sit back and wait for the next phase of the War. Horus would certainly have his hands full keeping mutiny at bay.

The Inquisition would certainly have a VERY different role, probably more concerned with keeping peace and representing the Emperor's rule rather than purging anything who begins to turn to chaos or looks at them funny. The Imperium would have a very different dynamic militarily as well, probably more concerned with expansion rather than purely defence. I can't see the tau lasting long against the full force of a Primach-led Crusade. Nids and Crons would certainly be a threat, although assuming the webway was working they could be countered far faster. As you said, the war would just be on a far larger scale, and with stakes of Empire and expansion rather than just survival.

And also, I agree, this thread is one of the most genuinely interesting I've seen on here in quite some time. Keep it coming, guys.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:


Now all that aside back to the Op: Had Russ and Lion been able to get there before Big E went to the battle barge and helped out with the battle on Terra...how differently would things have gone? Or to be more exact...if the Lion and Russ were able to fight along side Sanguinus would that have changed? Or would all 3 have died?

Horus probably wouldnt have tried to lure them onto his battle barge if he suspected another loyal primarch could assist.

You could ask the same question the other way. What if another of the traitor primarchs was there.

What if when they all teleported onto horus's BB, Sanguinus was actually Omegon?

Exergy wrote: What if when they all teleported onto horus's BB, Sanguinus was actually Alpharius?

0.0

Mind blown.

Things. Things would have happened.

Keep in mind it wasn't just Russ and the SW. They had near the full might of the Custodes and Silent Sisters (who would have been a huge handicap to the demons had they been on Terra.

I think the Silent Sisters missing the battle of terra would actually have made the most difference given their Negative psychic abilities.

First, shouldn't this be in the background forum?

Second, I don't think that an earlier arrival of Russ and Johnson would have made much of a difference. For one simple reason: It was their impending arrival that forced Horus' hand into his last gambit. If they'd arrived earlier, he'd have made the gamble earlier, but they would still have been too late.

I think that if the Dark Angels, the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves hadn't been kept tied up far from Terra that the assault on Terra never would have happened in the first place. Only reason it was able to proceed is because those 3 primarchs and their legions were kept away from Terra. If they were ready and available to defend Terra then Horus would not have been able to attack with any hope of success. They wouldn't have stood by Sanguinius' side while he fought Horus because that fight would have not actually happened the same way.

Skriker