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A unit containing at least one model with the Slow and Purposeful rule can shoot with Heavy, Ordnance and Salvo weapons, counting as stationary.

An Artillery unit cannot fire it's guns if they moved at all in that turn's movement phase.

If an Artillery unit contains a model with S&P (Ork Big Gunz joined by an Independent Character in Mega-Armour, for example) can it move it's guns and fire in the same turn?

some people argue both ways, but since Slow and purposeful says they count as stationary its pretty apparent you can.

No, the artillery rules prevent this from working. Slow and purposeful does not make an exception to the artillery rule.

Are the guns you are shooting classified as:

heavy, ordinance, or salvo? then they count as stationary, which means they count as having not moved "AT ALL"

Yeah, I agree. If you stick a S&P model in an artillery unit, it lets you move and shoot.

I'm in the "they can't fire camp" as the rule says that gun models can't be fired.

S&P allows you to shoot with heavy etc weapons as if you haven't moved but nothing says they can fire gun models that have moved. There is a blanket prohibition. Even if the Gun model was an Assault weapon type, you couldn't fire it if it had moved.

If it says they can't fire if they moved at all, then I'm going to say no.
Space Marine's 5th ed codex was the same with the Chapter Master; you could not move at all in the movement phase.
That sentence doesn't exist in our 6th ed codex, so we can use Relentless.

I might be wrong with that call, since the codex was the same edition as the rulebook at the time.

Is "Counts as stationary" = "counts as not moved"?

If so than I imagine there shouldn't be a problem. According to the S&P rule, it's not about if they moved it is a matter of counts as not moved.

Slow and Purposeful bestows upon the unit the ability to fire Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary.

It doesn't bestow upon the unit the ability to count as stationary in all things.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Slow and Purposeful bestows upon the unit the ability to fire Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary.

It doesn't bestow upon the unit the ability to count as stationary in all things.

I'd be on the side that they cannot. Reasoning:
"A unit containing at least one model with the Slow and Purposeful rule can shoot with Heavy, Ordnance and Salvo weapons, counting as stationary."

Means: When you shoot your weapon, assuming you can shoot it, you count as stationary.

"An Artillery unit cannot fire it's guns if they moved at all in that turn's movement phase."
Means: Any movement bans you from shooting the weapon.

as previously said, S&P does not make an exception to artillery. S&P gives you a certain status IF you fire you weapon.
If S&P was:
"If A unit containing at least one model with the Slow and Purposeful rule shoots with Heavy, Ordnance and Salvo weapons, it counts as stationary."
Then that would indeed override artillery.

Hope this clarifies a bit. It's basically down to how S&P is Written.

It is easily read that S&P gives permission by claimimg the unit 'can shoot' heavy weapons, etc..

In fact in your 2nd example artillery can't shoot. (unlike say, lootas, who would be firing snap shots) because they are not being given permission to shoot. In your first example of S&P the rule clearly seems to grant any unit a shot that is heavy ord or slavo and they fire as stationary ( not snapshots ).

I mean it could be read in circles all day. Depends on what your bias is. Do termies fire templates after moving? Just curious, seems like a comparable situation.

Been a while since I looked at the Ordnance Rules, and I know I won't remember to do so by the time I get back to the library, so I have to ask:

Does the ordnance rule contain a similar sentence structure, something along the lines of ' if a non-vehicle model moved that turn then they can not fire an ordnance weapon,' or is it just snap shots?

JinxDragon wrote:
Been a while since I looked at the Ordnance Rules, and I know I won't remember to do so by the time I get back to the library, so I have to ask:

Does the ordnance rule contain a similar sentence structure, something along the lines of ' if a non-vehicle model moved that turn then they can not fire an ordnance weapon,' or is it just snap shots?

"A non-vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the Shooting phase if he moved in the preceding Movement phase and cannot fire it as Snap Shots."

Thanks BloackTalos,
Doesn't get me any closer to determining what is correct for Artillery, still leaning towards no, but it does disprove some of the theories put forth here:
The Slow and Purposeful Rule does not care if the weapon is able to be fired, this is evident by the inclusion of Ordnance on the list of weapons that are effected by this rule. As the clause within ordnance prevents the weapon from being fired at all, and the Slow and Purpose rule specifically mentions Ordnance as being able to fire, it can not be stated that 'can not fire' trumps 'Slow and Purposeful.' If that was the case then a model with Slow and Purposeful would still be unable to fire an Ordinance weapon on moving.

Of course, this is all limited to Ordnance weapons which is why I can not apply it to other rules at this point in time but the argument that 'can not fire trumps slow and purposeful' does not appear correct.

Artillery has two separate restrictions (mostly because they are almost all Heavy weapons).

1. If you move, you must fire Snap Shots when firing a Heavy weapon.
2. If the gun moves it cannot be fired.

1 has nothing to do with 2. S&P overrides 1 but not 2.

JinxDragon wrote:
Thanks BloackTalos,
Doesn't get me any closer to determining what is correct for Artillery, still leaning towards no, but it does disprove some of the theories put forth here:
The Slow and Purposeful Rule does not care if the weapon is able to be fired, this is evident by the inclusion of Ordnance on the list of weapons that are effected by this rule. As the clause within ordnance prevents the weapon from being fired at all, and the Slow and Purpose rule specifically mentions Ordnance as being able to fire, it can not be stated that 'can not fire' trumps 'Slow and Purposeful.' If that was the case then a model with Slow and Purposeful would still be unable to fire an Ordinance weapon on moving.

Of course, this is all limited to Ordnance weapons which is why I can not apply it to other rules at this point in time but the argument that 'can not fire trumps slow and purposeful' does not appear correct.

I understand your reasoning, however the crucial word here IMO is "non-vehicle" in the Ordnance rule, and then the words "turbo-boost, move flat out" for S&P. This would lead me to think that even though non-vehicle models are clearly banned from using ordnance after moving, S&P would come of use for things like Walker (who have infantry rules) who might need other parts of the rule (S&P: "allowed to charge in the same turn they fire (...) ordnance).

I am not asserting 'can not fire' trumps 'Slow and Purposeful.' but rather S&P Rule does not trigger because 'can not fire', if you can see the difference in that?

Gun Models in an Artillery unit are not on the list of weapons that can be fired by Crew Models and still count as stationary. S&P does nothing for Artillery.

Artillery has its own special restrictions on movement when being fired.

S&P simply allows you to fire a heavy, ordnance and salvo weapons after moving.

Even if the Artillery weapon in question was assault, it still could not move and fire because the artillery rule prevents it.
So S&P has no bearing on the rules for it, thus, does nothing.

JinxDragon wrote:

Of course, this is all limited to Ordnance weapons which is why I can not apply it to other rules at this point in time but the argument that 'can not fire trumps slow and purposeful' does not appear correct.

Slow and Purposeful does trump "can not fire" because in the case of Ordnance there is a specific grant in the S&P/Relentless rules that allow it to.
Artillery has no such grant.

This seems pretty straight forward to me. Essentially Slow & Purposeful models count as not moving when firing those weapon types mentioned (heavy, salvo, ordnance). Is artillery another weapon type? Technically, as far as the rules go, these units don't move a millimetre all game. You can physically move it wherever you want up to its maximum move range, but as far as the rules see it, they stayed still. Think of it as the game saying "you know that unit you just moved? Yeah well that didn't happen".

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Think of it as the game saying "you know that unit you just moved? Yeah well that didn't happen".

Unfortunately, GW makes heavy use of context. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that this reference only applies to the rules for Heavy/Salvo/Ordnance, and not to other rules that might check your movement status.

...Personally, I can't help thinking the whole S&P is itself a big mistake of context, and that the "at least one model" was only meant to apply to slowing down movement, rather than the entire rule. Seems really weird that one Nob in Mega-armor joining a unit of lootas suddenly lets them all walk around for a change. But, that's just me speculating.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Think of it as the game saying "you know that unit you just moved? Yeah well that didn't happen".

It's important to note though that that is only the case in regards of firing Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance weapons. For all other rules purposes the unit has still moved.

Uptopdownunder,
Hence that sentence at the conclusion, a rule to over-ride movement restrictions in one situation can not be equally applied to another situation. Yet that question let to some interesting side thoughts, showing an apparent sentiment that slow and purposeful non-vehicle models still can not fire ordnance weapons, because 'can not fire' prevents Slow and Purposeful from being able to trigger. It is a thought to think on a little in and of itself, and the one person putting for the reason for why it would mention ordnance at all needs to be researched and I do not feel the desire to do so at this point in time.

Another thread for another time maybe.

I don't see how when Slow and Purposeful says specifically that they can.

It helps if people actually quote the correct rule and not what they think the rule says.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turboboost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons

You count as stationary even if you moved.

SHOOTING WITH ARTILLERY

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

The underlined is the context of that rule.

Since S&P counts as not moving when they fire the weapons, they can fire Artillery without issue.

The guns aren't firing weapons, they are being fired so the counts as stationary won't apply to them.

as i said, its pretty clear they can.

The artillery rule is very specific i agree, but so is slow and purpouseful.

as long as the weapon profile includes a Heavy, Salvo, or Ordnance weapon, it counts as stationary (which means it counts as though it has not moved) and thus can be fired even if it has moved.

Wouldn't it be awesome if GW actually updated their FAQ's to clear up stuff like this?

But that's not what the rules says at all Eihnlazer, it says you count as stationary if you are firing Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance. For anything else you are still considered to have moved.

I'm not sure who is on what side of the argument anymore?

Post S&P Artillery can/cannot shoot after moving in your next posts =P

As both of you agree, Artillery rule is clear: any movement will render the gun unusable, therefore any changes to the status of the shot from S&P are not relevant?
The gun piece was moved: it can't fire.
The models moving with it carrying heavy weapons can still fire them, counting as stationary.