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So basically your argument simply boils down to...

"We do it, so they can as well."

My argument is the west does it all over the world with pretty horrific results (you want to weigh the body count?), Russia does it in its own back yard with pretty minimal bloodshed, and usually as a reaction to western meddling in the affected region.

Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...

Are you Serious???? The WEST DOES NOT FORMENT CIVIL WARS?

We are looking at the results of the west formenting a Civil war in Ukraine RIGHT NOW! The Ukrainian uprising was formented funded and supported by the west. In fact without Russia stepping in that's exactly what would have happened. East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in. The west loves to forment revolution, wait till it gets super violent and bloody and then declares "We have to step in to stop this mess" with an invasion that usually turns out bloodier that the original civil war.

And Russia repelling an invasion of South Ossetia? Oh my god you've gotta learn how to read. Nearly a full month prior to Georgia taking military action against Ossetia, the Ossetians and Russians were attacking Georgia. Georgia villages where shelled, police stations bombed, Georgian friendly politicians were subject to assassination attempts. Months before that, the Russian military was attacking Georgian military assets.

I think you need to look at that situation again, because thats not how it happened. Thats how the West likes to look at it, but its not the real story.

It's obvious whose camp your in, with your selective reading of historical fact.

You need to stop getting all your historical "facts" from fox news my friend.

I can see what camp you are in, clearly you are a "MERRICAN" and what history you like to ignore. You want to talk about drone strikes on weddings, or villages getting wiped out? How may innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan do you want to start counting.

If Russia was goofing around in Canada or Mexico, I would fully expect the US to do something about it. But this is Russia's backyard.

You know, when I see the current Ukrainian government resorting to threating their own military for not shooting at their own citizens.....well I get a pretty clear picture of how popular this new government is and who the real bad guys are.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in.

lol.........

That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.

 djones520 wrote:
So basically your argument simply boils down to...

"We do it, so they can as well."

Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...

And Russia repelling an invasion of South Ossetia? Oh my god you've gotta learn how to read. Nearly a full month prior to Georgia taking military action against Ossetia, the Ossetians and Russians were attacking Georgia. Georgia villages where shelled, police stations bombed, Georgian friendly politicians were subject to assassination attempts. Months before that, the Russian military was attacking Georgian military assets.

It's obvious whose camp your in, with your selective reading of historical fact.

What? Russia shelling Georgian villages? Attacking Georgian military? This is the first time I've heard such a thing. With such claims, it would be nice if you could show some proof for them, seeing your love for 'unselective reading of historical fact'. It is obvious what camp you are in as well.

Russia only invaded Georgia when Russian peacekeepers in the region were being attacked. Those peacekeepers had been deployed there since the Georgian-Ossetian war of 1991-1992, and Russia only took the Ossetian side after the Georgian-Ossetian conflict of 2004. Before that, it had supported the status quo.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in.

lol.........

That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.

Right because that never happens.....oh wait, that is ALMOST ALWAYS what happens in these situations, double so when its a conflict that is clearly an East vs West situation..do you need a list?

So you don't think that without the threat posed by the Russian Military this would not have escalated? What history classes have you been taking? The new eastern regime would have tried to quell the "rebels" with force, and that force would have been met by armed "rebels". The West and Russia would then start clandestinely arming their respective sides, this is all pretty standard and text book stuff, nothing new to see here. Just look at how nasty Kiev was compared to the rest.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

So you don't think that without the threat posed by the Russian Military this would not have escalated?

I think that Russia's involvement and heavy handedness caused the escalation. Why would the new Ukrainian government have resorted to force? They may do now that their hand has been forced since several key buildings have been captured by men who don't look at all like they are military, honest.

Kiev got nasty because the old regime was heavy handed, what sort of government deploys snipers for crowd control?

The west doesn't arm non governmental forces, if we didn't arm the Libyans we certainly weren't going to be arming the Ukrainians. now that the new regime is in place the west may provide some limited armaments, but that vast majority of their equipment is Russian in origin.

You are comparing the modern world to the 60s and 70s, there is no such thing as a proxy war anymore.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

So you don't think that without the threat posed by the Russian Military this would not have escalated?

I think that Russia's involvement and heavy handedness caused the escalation. Why would the new Ukrainian government have resorted to force? They may do now that their hand has been forced since several key buildings have been captured by men who don't look at all like they are military, honest.

Kiev got nasty because the old regime was heavy handed, what sort of government deploys snipers for crowd control?

Why would the Ukrainian regime resort to force? Well, to keep the country together of course. They came to power in an illegitimate, undemocratic and violent revolution that mostly came from the West of the country, and many people in the East don't like that and go to the streets, occupying buildings and arming themselves, just like the pro-Maidan protesters did before them.
And what government deploys snipers? Well, this new one apparently: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Estonian-Foreign-Ministry-confirms-authenticity-leaked-phone-call-discussing-Kiev-snipers-shot-protesters-possibly-hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html.
The new regime contains a lot of very unsavory, violent types, and as they have know experience at ruling, using force is the only way they know. By deploying troops, they hope to swiftly crush the rebellion and prevent Russia from interfering. Add to that the contempt the new regime has for Russians, Russian-speakers and Eastern Ukrainians, and it does not take a genius to figure out why Kiev deploys troops.
The rebels in Eastern Ukraine may look military, but they are definitely not Russian soldiers. Most of them are members of the Crimean Self Defense forces bolstered by new recruits from Eastern Ukraine, and their equipment is mostly captured from Ukrainian stockpiles. Military stuff is really not hard to come by in Ukraine.
I say the West caused this whole situation by escalating the Maidan protests and Pravy Sektor made it even worse by disobeying the agreement that was reached.
The crisis was further escalated by the actions of the coup-appointed government and the Crimean referendum.

 Palindrome wrote:
The west doesn't arm non governmental forces, if we didn't arm the Libyans we certainly weren't going to be arming the Ukrainians. now that the new regime is in place the west may provide some limited armaments, but that vast majority of their equipment is Russian in origin.

You are comparing the modern world to the 60s and 70s, there is no such thing as a proxy war anymore.

Wait wut? The West has stopped arming non-governmental forces? since when?
And maybe you didn't arm the Libyan rebels, but you surely helped them by bombing the gak out of the Libyan government. But of course that doesn't count because everything NATO does is good, right?

The west doesn't arm non governmental forces,

HA HA you are funny.

I think that Russia's involvement and heavy handedness caused the escalation.

What escalation? The event has only deescalated since it started. Look at the daily body counts if you need to. Now if gak hits the fan, then it could escalate quite a bit, there is not much of a chance, but there is potential that this could end up being the beginning of something much bigger than a civil war.

Why would the new Ukrainian government have resorted to force?

For the same reason they are quazi attempting to now, the rest of Ukraine isn't buying it.

Kiev got nasty because the old regime was heavy handed, what sort of government deploys snipers for crowd control?

Short answer, lots, most even. Most recently......the U.S. or haven't you heard http://www.infowars.com/federal-snipers-train-guns-on-family-for-filming-cattle/
"Federal snipers with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) trained guns on members of a family yesterday after they dared to stop and take video footage of cattle outside the bounds of a designated “First Amendment Area,” before arresting one of the men for non-compliance."

As opposed to threatening soldiers for not shooting protesters, like the new regime is?

there is no such thing as a proxy war anymore.

It's so cute that you believe that.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

It's so cute that you believe that.

Well its obvious that this isn't going anywhere given your condescending tone, I am amazed that you think that Russia is the good guy here.

In a Armed Conflict everyone is a good guy and everyone a bad guy regardless of what side your on.

He who last laugh wins

I didn't read all the post but Jews are not being ordered to register, it was actually a flyer put out by Ukrainian nationalist to make the Russian nationalist look bad. Also how is Putin in any way like Hitler, he has a lot pro Russian nationalism but I don't see him talking about a master race. I don't get why everything comes back to Hitler, is it just because its a knee jerk reaction simaler to calling your foes communist or do you actually have such a butchered knowledge of History that Hitler is the only bad guy you can think of?

 djones520 wrote:

Well sorry, but I don't see us setting up bombs at soccer matches, formenting civil war, etc...

No, the US would never foment civil war.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Russia only invaded Georgia when Russian peacekeepers in the region were being attacked. Those peacekeepers had been deployed there since the Georgian-Ossetian war of 1991-1992, and Russia only took the Ossetian side after the Georgian-Ossetian conflict of 2004. Before that, it had supported the status quo.

Yeah, that's nonsense. Russia had de facto control of most of South Ossetia following the '91-'92 war, and the Ossetians under de facto Russian control initiated the conflict by way of militia violence.

 Palindrome wrote:

The west doesn't arm non governmental forces, if we didn't arm the Libyans we certainly weren't going to be arming the Ukrainians.

We do, but generally we ask for money first; capitalist pigs that we are.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

It's so cute that you believe that.

Well its obvious that this isn't going anywhere given your condescending tone, I am amazed that you think that Russia is the good guy here.

Its just unbelievable with all the facts present that you somehow believe proxy wars don't exist, the west does not arm foreign nationals, and the west still has a cold war mentality in regards to Russia, even though Russia has attempted in the past to play nice . Yeah its toned down from the days of Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan, but it still exists.

The U.S. state department is one of the most underhanded groups on the planet when it comes to manipulating and overthrowing other countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think the U.S. has the right influence areas that are of some concern, my concern is ....well they are not all that good at it, and maybe they should recognize that trying to reach into the back pocket of what could have been a great ally is not really in our best interests.

Could you imagine what a great alliance between Russia and the U.S. could accomplish? Yeah, we are never going to be buddy buddy like the U.S and England, but if we could just work together, we could accomplish a lot. Russian assistance and guidance was invaluable when the U.S. initially went into Afghanistan, it was looking like a bright future.

There are no good guys in this situation. All parties are trying to interfere in the affairs of a foreign nation. If Russia had just rolled into Ukraine and took over for gaks and giggles, that would be one thing. BUY THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. The west went into Ukraine and fostered and formented a revolution in Russia's back yard, and not a particularly successful one. It was easy enough for Russia to keep it in check.

The west has more pressing issues to handle than going around pissing on Russia's shoes, and Russia can not just let that slide either.

And for what, what does Ukraine really offer the west, that is worth starting the cold war again?

 Andrew1975 wrote:

The U.S. state department is one of the most underhanded groups on the planet when it comes to manipulating and overthrowing other countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think the U.S. has the right influence areas that are of some concern, my concern is ....well they are not all that good at it, and maybe they should recognize that trying to reach into the back pocket of what could have been a great ally is not really in our best interests.

Russia was never going to be a Western ally. Too many of its leading politicians came to power in the Cold War and they, rightly, recognize that they have things (mostly natural gas) that the West needs.

Oh, and then there's the whole nuclear proliferation thing.

 dogma wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

The U.S. state department is one of the most underhanded groups on the planet when it comes to manipulating and overthrowing other countries. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think the U.S. has the right influence areas that are of some concern, my concern is ....well they are not all that good at it, and maybe they should recognize that trying to reach into the back pocket of what could have been a great ally is not really in our best interests.

Russia was never going to be a Western ally. Too many of its leading politicians came to power in the Cold War and they, rightly, recognize that they have things (mostly natural gas) that the West needs.

Oh, and then there's the whole nuclear proliferation thing.

Like I said, they were never going to be buddy buddy, like the U.S. and the U.K. but there was a time where there was a sense of progress, warming and co-operation towards each other. We are so far away from each other, if we just respected that we have our own sphere of influences we could find ways to work with each other on issues that are threats to both of us.

The nuclear proliferation issues were not really that big of a issue with the New Russia, until the Bush announced that the United States was withdrawing from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, so that it could build a system in Eastern Europe to protect NATO allies and U.S. bases from Iranian missile attack. This was seen by Russia as a step in the wrong direction, while it was not aimed at Russia, it threatened Russians nuclear deterrent capabilities. This action when combined with the infectious spread of NATO, made Russia uncomfortable, Russia rightly had to feel like they were again being treated like the odd man out. That's basically when Russia decided it was no longer in its best interest to cooperate with the West.

Back to the OP.

As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence I wonder if Israel may try to evacuate the Donetsk Jews?

I can see Netanhayu profiting from this big time.
- It reinforces the ideology that Jews can only look to themselves for defense, which in turn 'justifies' heavy handed actions.
- It allows Israel to reboot the guilt trip, which is fast expiring for nobody else helping Jews. Especially as Obama visibly doesnt seem to care.
- The evacuated Jews will strengthen numbers of the correct persons in Israel.
- They will need somewhere to live, which is an excellent excuse for a fresh round of land grabs and expulsions.

Netanyahu is no fool, so we wont hear anything until they are ready. But I can sniff similar plans to the evacuation of Ethiopian Jews in the 70's.

Vote NO to russia taking over your country, and get beaten up and whipped by the cossacks.

"do you want your health, your family, your respect and dignity. Vote yes for russian domination".

 Orlanth wrote:

As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence

That's because it's the most disgusting piece of propaganda put out so far by either side. There's no substance to it, just something that was entirely fabricated and distributed in an attempt to undermine the anti-Maidan movement in Donetsk.

 Orlanth wrote:
Back to the OP.

As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence I wonder if Israel may try to evacuate the Donetsk Jews?

I can see Netanhayu profiting from this big time.
- It reinforces the ideology that Jews can only look to themselves for defense, which in turn 'justifies' heavy handed actions.
- It allows Israel to reboot the guilt trip, which is fast expiring for nobody else helping Jews. Especially as Obama visibly doesnt seem to care.
- The evacuated Jews will strengthen numbers of the correct persons in Israel.
- They will need somewhere to live, which is an excellent excuse for a fresh round of land grabs and expulsions.

Netanyahu is no fool, so we wont hear anything until they are ready. But I can sniff similar plans to the evacuation of Ethiopian Jews in the 70's.

Back to the OP, which is about Jews in Europe...clearly it's time to start criticizing Israel and imply that they're conspiring to profit from the situation.

Really rich. PS: Passover just happened...might want to check your kids' blood volume.

If we've learned anything from comics, registration acts are a serious issue. History too: Nazi Germany anyone? If the Jewish population is being forced to register, it's only going to get worse from here. If we get giant robots sent to hunt down Jewish people, I'm getting metal claw implants and I'm gonna kick some tail. I'm gonna stay at home on "bring electric beams to work" day though-I'm allergic to em.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
East and West Ukraine would be going at it like Syria if Russia didn't step in.

lol.........

That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.

You are right, I don't know what I was thinking, these things never devolve into small factions killing each other in a civil war, I mean that never happens.....oh wait.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27093347" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27093347

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-russia-trade-blame-eastern-shootout-140213905.html

So the second Russia starts standing down, the Western Ukrainians take this as a sign to start slaughtering people. Couldn't have seen that coming.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

As the incident with Jewish registration has been largely met with silence

That's because it's the most disgusting piece of propaganda put out so far by either side. There's no substance to it, just something that was entirely fabricated and distributed in an attempt to undermine the anti-Maidan movement in Donetsk.

We don't know if this is the case, it could be furious back pedalling.

Remember that Donetsk has been seized by armed militias, not by the Russian army, individual groups could have any number of agendas, not excluding far right. Russia has a long history of violent anti-Semitism.
No reason not to take this seriously until the source is revealed, and dealt with.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Back to the OP, which is about Jews in Europe...clearly it's time to start criticizing Israel and imply that they're conspiring to profit from the situation.

Criticism of Israel would be less justified if Israel didn't do the many abhorent things that are cause of justified criticism.
I hope you dont want to go back to the old bugbear of accusing anyone who speaks out against the human rights abuses perpetrated by Israeli governments and military as 'anti-Semitic'.

Also no conspiracy is implied, only that a window of opportunity could be present.
World of difference by saying Netanyahu could try to profit from this, and Netanyahu is trying to profit from this.
Besides if things get ugly for Jews in Donetsk an evacuation plan similar to initiatives with the Ethiopian Jews would not of itself be a bad idea.

We go into Israel bashing now?

 Jihadin wrote:
We go into Israel bashing now?

Well, for some people Jew = conspiracy!!!.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
We go into Israel bashing now?

Well, for some people Jew = conspiracy!!!.

And for some people not agreeing with everything Israel does = anti-Semitic. Both are fairly non-defensible stances, but it hasn't kept it from happening.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
We go into Israel bashing now?

Well, for some people Jew = conspiracy!!!.

Only if you don't read the thread properly, and insist on misrepresenting what was actually written.

Its amazing how people believe the factoids that are are shown on the news and then cite them like they saw it themselves.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Its amazing how people believe the factoids that are are shown on the news and then cite them like they saw it themselves.

It's amazing how this thread is two months old as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Its amazing how people believe the factoids that are are shown on the news and then cite them like they saw it themselves.

It's amazing how this thread is two months old as well.

Besides John Kerry made comments on this, before it was debunked. IIRC he called the alleged developments 'disgusting'. If a senior government official took it seriously enough to make statements you cant blame Dakka for doing so.

 Ahtman wrote:

Exalt. And the actual image name... I love it.