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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

It's not poor form at all. Something bad needs to happen to the Eldar army from time to time, and it's not coming from GW.


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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I do play people who play unbound. I play people that bring anything that is legally allowed in the 7th edition rulebook and in any corresponding codex. I have absolutely no problem with facing unbound, GMC, or SH. I have access to the same optioned they do.

FYI, this doesn't make it my version of 40K. It makes it THE version of 40K. You know, the one in the official games workshop 7th edition rulebook..... So which one of us is the one wanting to play their own version?

Anyways, this argument is detracting from the point of this thread. I won't argue with people about how broken or not these changes are. These are probably the same players who spam riptides or the new necron 'I just won't ever die' detachment and think that they're all perfectly acceptable.

The point of this thread is to discuss the new eldar book, the rumours and the tactical implications. If people decided to be 'that guy' and spam bikes, or opponents decide to cry when a wraithknight is brought... When they had no problem with them before, then that's up to them. Feel free to start a new thread called 'I'd like to whinge about eldar as they're probably now the top of the top tier'.

If it's legal, then it's "acceptable".

To the topic title. The confirmed changes will effect our play style by having no one to play against if there's anything on a bike or made of wraithbone in our army list.

Love that GW has no idea what they do to their own game. There's no way they have a single clue.

I think we might end up in the opposite situation from Necrons, in that people will only play us if we don't use the CAD. I just hope that the detachment benefits are worth it.

And again, until the codex is in people's hands, everything up to and including the WD article is mere speculation and rumor.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
To the topic title. The confirmed changes will effect our play style by having no one to play against if there's anything on a bike or made of wraithbone in our army list.

Love that GW has no idea what they do to their own game. There's no way they have a single clue.

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

Assuming Crimson Hunters are still a thing in their current iteration, a flyrant drops in a turn to a pair of them guaranteed (and one really layers on the hurt). Spiders shooting up also output an impressive amount of damage from sheer RoF. If Bladestorm and Monofil remain with pseudo-eldar-rending, Necrons get stripped of one layer of saves and most other armies just don't get them from basic eldar infantry. Some fundamental rules need to be amended - if all eldar trade for superior bikes and Wraithknights (alongside rumored D weapon availability) is laser lock, an already monumentally good book just got better.

Judgement reserved until we know more.

Anyone else notice the new bikes are on the smaller based flight stands instead of the 60mm? This makes me happy. All bikes should be on oval bases though..

I'm sad the Autarch appears to only be swooping hawk winged, with power sword and fusion gun. Swooping Hawk winged Autarch is a detriment to hawks, since he can't sky leap with them (Hawks have the rule, he does not). Basically it is a kit that is not needed as hardly anyone is using him in that fashion.


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 TheNewBlood wrote:
I think we might end up in the opposite situation from Necrons, in that people will only play us if we don't use the CAD. I just hope that the detachment benefits are worth it.

And again, until the codex is in people's hands, everything up to and including the WD article is mere speculation and rumor.

Agree - WD has gotten rules wrong before also. So nothing is exactly confirmed yet rules-wise.

Has it ever posted incorrect unit profiles before, though? It's one thing if they accidentally mix up rampage and rage in the battle report narrative or something silly like that, but I don't see it being likely that they somehow mess up a copy/paste of an entire unit profile straight from the new codex.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

27 points per 4 S6 shots. You could get 60 bikes in a 1800 list. Hey, look at that, my CAD is max troops! So balanced!
240 S6 shots.
Sure, snap fire. It's still killing 1-2 flyrants a turn.
Or to put it in perspective, it's killing ~90 orks a turn in cover.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

27 points per 4 S6 shots. You could get 60 bikes in a 1800 list. Hey, look at that, my CAD is max troops! So balanced!
240 S6 shots.
Sure, snap fire. It's still killing 1-2 flyrants a turn.
Or to put it in perspective, it's killing ~90 orks a turn in cover.

-Matt

So I thought with the SW and BA codices GW were trying to do some balance, and then Crons and Eldar gakked the bed.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

The point of this thread is to discuss the new eldar book, the rumours and the tactical implications

They've been discussed on the first page in the second post.

oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

 Jazzhands wrote:
oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

It just hurts extra hard right now because everyone was hoping that Eldar would be toned down to bring some much needed balance to the game alongside the trend of the other 7E books.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Jazzhands wrote:
oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

It just hurts extra hard right now because everyone was hoping that Eldar would be toned down to bring some much needed balance to the game alongside the trend of the other 7E books.

Other 7E books like necrons?

The trend was quite balanced. Orks, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Skitarii, Harlequins, Dark Eldar. They were actually on their way to fixing some of the worst excesses in the game and creating a more balanced line up of armies. Necrons is an anomaly, yes, but the future was looking bright for a while there.

in a game system like this there will never be balance. If there were how would sales continiue?

We all sit and hope that the next set of rules will favour our faction (again, a DA player talking)and if you are a serious competitive player I can understand whyit is so important.

I play for fun. I like fluffy lists and live for the narrative. I know not everyone does.

Will it be hard to fight new Eldar? yes I'm sure it will. Will I roar with joy when I total a WK? oh you bet ya.

Having seen how good my ravenwing look deploying I can't wait to see a field of jetbikes and pissing my pants as I work out how to deal with them.

I think the future is still quite bright. I can't see them being all that broken. I'm pretty sure the wraithknight will see a decent price hike so that will match their new profile and balance them out. And then the only issue will be bikes. They are powerful, sure, but they're not as durable as a lot of units that are as fast. T4, 3+ is still quite easily dealt with. They'll drop fast.


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 Jazzhands wrote:
in a game system like this there will never be balance. If there were how would sales continiue?

We all sit and hope that the next set of rules will favour our faction (again, a DA player talking)and if you are a serious competitive player I can understand whyit is so important.

I play for fun. I like fluffy lists and live for the narrative. I know not everyone does.

Will it be hard to fight new Eldar? yes I'm sure it will. Will I roar with joy when I total a WK? oh you bet ya.

Having seen how good my ravenwing look deploying I can't wait to see a field of jetbikes and pissing my pants as I work out how to deal with them.

This. I absolutely ADORE this attitude. Hear hear good sir.

 Jazzhands wrote:
oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

Again someone is extremely optimistic about their chances. A vindi won't drop it's own point cost in bikes before it dies. Your knights will never get in arms reach of his. (This is competitively speaking, if you just play casual where they might take a wraithknight and a ton of banshees, then go nuts, but casual lists are hardly relevant to balance issues.)

 Jazzhands wrote:
in a game system like this there will never be balance. If there were how would sales continiue?

We all sit and hope that the next set of rules will favour our faction (again, a DA player talking)and if you are a serious competitive player I can understand whyit is so important.

I play for fun. I like fluffy lists and live for the narrative. I know not everyone does.

Will it be hard to fight new Eldar? yes I'm sure it will. Will I roar with joy when I total a WK? oh you bet ya.

Having seen how good my ravenwing look deploying I can't wait to see a field of jetbikes and pissing my pants as I work out how to deal with them.

...playing for fun is fine, but when you play a game where deck is stacked against you, it has a a habit of pissing some people off. Why should our game be reduced to being the Alamo? On another note, I feel that GW deliberately released Skitarii before Eldar on the simple basis they saw the new Jetbike would cripple them.

I can't agree that balance can't be gauged by non-competitive play. Even the fluffiest of players doesn't want to lose all the time of feel there is no chance.

No my vindicators might not drop equal points... but they might drop enough that the bikes are no longer an issue and the rest of my force can do the damage without having to worry about them.

And yes, I'm sure there will be times when my knights don't get there. There are time they don't with current rules, but there are times when they smash up its heals while Belial runs up his front to bury his sword is its stupid dome of a face!

Tactic matter (especially in competitive arena) but so do the whims of the dice gods! and when they are not teasing me with near misses we all know they waste their days laughing at the mathshammer crew!


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also I'm a DA player, the deck is usually stacked against me.

But who doesn't love an underdog?

New Eldar will arrive. They will be tough and hard to beat.. but I will enjoy those victories all the more for it.

Warhammer fluff is about as entertaining as reading a teenaged girl's angst-ridden diary. I am in the hobby mostly to play, and I felt like things in 7th ed. were mostly headed in the right direction. I don't expect perfect balance (GW is a miniatures store first of course) but as long as things are in the right ballpark I am fine with it.

I am still cautiously hopeful but yeah, if things are grossly out of balance it is going to seriously impact everyone who plays, whether they play for fun or play to win.

I love a good teenage angst filled diary (non-gender specific though)

 Jazzhands wrote:
Tactic matter (especially in competitive arena) but so do the whims of the dice gods! and when they are not teasing me with near misses we all know they waste their days laughing at the mathshammer crew!

You... do realize math accurately defines dice averages, right? Like, that's not opinion. That's fact.

Almost everyone who complains about failing 5 of 6 3+ armor saves forgets the 8 saves in a row they just made from the previous shooting attack.

"actic matter (especially in competitive arena) but so do the whims of the dice gods! and when they are not teasing me with near misses we all know they waste their days laughing at the mathshammer crew!"

Mathhammer never fails in the long run.

These Jetbikes are only Ldship 8 with no way other then a Farseer/ Autarch to improve it, am i correct?

If so, my Dark Harlie might stand a chance. Using the Scalpel Squadron and the Heroes Path (Should be easy to hide 3 models) to beta strike i will be able to drop in turn 2 with a Dark Artisan w/ Armour of Misery (T7 3+/4+++ will survive a whole lot of Scatter Laser fire), get the Mask Shadowseer into position and let lose with all the phantasm grenade launchers and Archangles of Pain i finally have a reason to field. Between Grisly Spectical, Mask of Secrets, Armour of Misery, Archangle of Pain, The Phantasm Grenade Launchers, the Death Jesters and the Psychic Shrieks i should be able to put a considerable dent in whatever i feel i need dead or running.

Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

yes I do understand the maths of probability but I feel it was the late great Pratchett who pointed out that one in a million chances turn up 9 times out of ten.

If I roll three 2+ saving throws then probability predicts it is unlikely that I fail them all... yet I do. Often.

Obviously the more we roll the more the predictions hold true but one of the amazing things about the universe we live in (and thus the games we play) is nothing is written in stone. Anything could happen.

Embrace the scientific outlook. The evidence I have supports this theory but when new evidence is given I will consider it and adjust my views accordingly.

Evidence suggests and supports the idea that there are not invisible dice pixies who control my roles. However, if I was shown reasonable evidence, gathered in controlled experimental conditions that such creatures exsisted I would be willing to consider it. I would probably be removing another squad of Deathwing as I did.

Evidence suggests that new Eldar will be next to unstoppable on the battle field. I am waiting for further evidence.


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Ahh look. Alex has chosen to spend his time planning not bitching.

And already it looks like things can be done.

Good work my man.

One in a million chances turn up one out of one million times. Probability dictates the odds of rolling a 1 on a d6 are 1/6. These are mathematical truths, that are as close to written in stone as you can get without etching them yourself. That is the scientific outlook.

What you have is called anecdotal evidence. Personal experience does not dictate the accepted norm - it supplements it.

It's probably more accurate to say that we remember the 1 in 1 million happenings 9 times out of 10. the other 999,999 happenings still happen.

Probably doesn't help that it's Eldar getting more buffs, being OP in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and now 7th.

It's quite obvious that this is the army that is favored by someone (Kelly) to the point of wanting constant buffs.

Still funny how people complain without having read the book yet. Of course there'll be buffs and nerfs somewhere, pushing WK into LoW-Slot forces Eldar to use their own detachment, or to field just one. Weren't people complaining that they were spammed to much?..and what now, they get a bit more resilience against snipers and poison along with FNP, yay~...

This game is constantly changing, I've not seen an army that was impossible to beat.

But some people claim certain units to be useless...if you can't use it, then you're incapable of playing it right, easy and hard as that.

If the meta is not for your list, change, adapt, learn new ways to kill the other army...as long and as frustrating as that might be, that's actually a great deal of fun to me.

Or do you all go to the table and expect to win without doing anything for it? Sure sounds like that with many posts here.