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Clanan wrote:
Worth mentioning that both PP and MM have easy-to-find Contact info. Besides posting in a forum, let them know your thoughts. I did, and I was surprised at how quickly PP responded to my comments.

Would you mind sharing their reply?

 Motograter wrote:
Only buy pp stuff online with 30%+ off as they offer no real value for money and lgs dropped them. Don't play pp in a game store, wont subsidize those who do. Just wont buy pp stuff. There are plenty other games out there. PP are just shooting themselves in the foot. No great loss

For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores.
You're not. OLGSs just use a different model and the larger ones in particular can survive while providing deeper discounts due to the volumes at which they sell.

If anything, B&M stores are saving OLGS buyers by providing a place where MSRP is often a standard/baseline.
If the independent B&Ms go away, PP and others have the choice of keeping OLGS middle men in business as they do currently OR selling Direct Only.
GW could do it with ease. Asmodee could, too. PP is the next source up for consideration that could probably do it.
They don't currently sell all their stuff via their online store but that could probably be fixed inside a month of uploads.

Yeah, that's like saying Barnes and Noble is saving Amazon -_-

Last year, I bought into Warmachine/Hordes to give it a try (started with Cryx, then realized I liked Cygnar better). Bought an army for my son (Everblight, got the starter set so I could also try out Orboros). I'd been trying to get four of my friends to try the game out (Skarne, Trollbloods & two undecided) as a replacement for WHFB.

I'd been on the fence about getting more, but with this latest turn of events, I've marked them off my gaming to-buy list and won't be encouraging my friend to buy in. Good job, PP.

 privateer4hire wrote:
For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores. You're not.

So if a product is available for X but you have to pay X+1 as a minimum so a retailer with a certain business model can be profitable, how is the +1 not a subsidy?

 MattofWar wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores. You're not.

So if a product is available for X but you have to pay X+1 as a minimum so a retailer with a certain business model can be profitable, how is the +1 not a subsidy?

Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?

The problem really is that PP clearly expects services to be bundled with their product and that is why they have set the MSRP as they have. If you're buying something in a concierge-type experience then yes, it will cost more than the "goods + overhead" because you've crossed into the realm of "goods + overhead + service". In this model, the discount offered by OLGS reflects the dropping of the costs of services not received, which oddly enough for many B&M are ALSO not received but no discount is typically offered (see also: bad business models).

Essentially, PP feels you should be paying for built-in services rather than letting the market figure out costing for those add-on services, and thus the price is higher than it "needs" to be. Given the numerous and plentiful anecdata that small shops are not that great at conducting business, the idea that this is preferable is not without a basis in probable fact. At the end of the day, it was always more about PP passing the costs of their and the retail sector's mistakes onto the end-customers. If you can get someone else to pay for your missteps though, that's generally a good idea. Not sure that the people being asked to absorb those costs should be thrilled to do so, but that's people for you.

 Krinsath wrote:

Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?

Okay I see what is being said now. So it's not a subsidy but an extra amount you have to pay so the online store can have even better margins that they can use to reduce shipping charges so the end cost to the customer is the same as the previous discount.

So subsidy is the wrong word, but an extra fee to artificially prop up one business model over another would be more accurate.

 MattofWar wrote:

So subsidy is the wrong word, but an extra fee to artificially prop up one business model over another would be more accurate.

Well, if you want to be REALLY accurate it's an extra fee to prop up one business model while greatly enriching the business model they supposedly don't like. For example, MM is now making an extra 20% for doing nothing different purely on the premise that now everyone will buy from B&M because there's no massive discount. This ignores that OLGS likely figure out ways to make the total cost still attractive that PP can't impact (loyalty points, faster shipping, etc) so that their volume really doesn't decrease that much while the struggling B&Ms still won't adjust how they do things.

Almost like one business is competing for money by finding innovative solutions to make them more enticing to customers or something...

 Krinsath wrote:

 MattofWar wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
For OLGS-Only Buyers/Fans, please don't buy into the narrative that you are somehow subsidizing B&M stores. You're not.

So if a product is available for X but you have to pay X+1 as a minimum so a retailer with a certain business model can be profitable, how is the +1 not a subsidy?

Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?

The problem really is that PP clearly expects services to be bundled with their product and that is why they have set the MSRP as they have. If you're buying something in a concierge-type experience then yes, it will cost more than the "goods + overhead" because you've crossed into the realm of "goods + overhead + service". In this model, the discount offered by OLGS reflects the dropping of the costs of services not received, which oddly enough for many B&M are ALSO not received but no discount is typically offered (see also: bad business models).

Essentially, PP feels you should be paying for built-in services rather than letting the market figure out costing for those add-on services, and thus the price is higher than it "needs" to be. Given the numerous and plentiful anecdata that small shops are not that great at conducting business, the idea that this is preferable is not without a basis in probable fact. At the end of the day, it was always more about PP passing the costs of their and the retail sector's mistakes onto the end-customers. If you can get someone else to pay for your missteps though, that's generally a good idea. Not sure that the people being asked to absorb those costs should be thrilled to do so, but that's people for you.

The problem is that PP products don't seem to be valued as highly on the market as PP seems to think it should be valued. Whether this is because online discounters have been selling it for 20-30% off RRP or because most of it is in restic is up to the individual to decide.

YMMV, but most of my local FLGS are happy about this development. They've been losing ground steadily to online sales. Invariably, if there is a deep discount to be had somewhere, the customer base will strongly trend towards exhaust that source first, fueled by gamer ADD, getting the max models for their money, before buying elsewhere. If a brick and mortar store is supporting tabletop gaming by providing space and stocking decent inventory, that's easily 10's of thousands of dollars in inventory providing inconsistent (sometimes zero) cash-flow, and valuable store floor space is being used for tables instead of additional display space for other revenue generating products. If the store operates on "special order" only and vastly reduces stock, then they loose the customers who are impulse buying out of convenience, as the same product can be readily purchased at discount online for the same inconvenience.

To say that FLGS as miniatures sellers is failed business model is akin to admitting that community gaming hubs as are an unneeded service and do not deserve support. PP clearly believes that independent retailers are valuable to customer recruitment and sustainability of their product line. Undoubtedly, they are going to lose customers over this strategic choice. However, I think that this won't be borne out in the long run. New customers aren't going to know the days before online deep discounts, and as such, will be more likely to buy from their FLGS where community exists as added benefit. Old customers who are superfans/hardcore competitive gamers will keep buying. Customers who can not afford due to budget reasons, or who have crossed the threshold into "too much money for not enough value" will be unfortunately lost. I think the main difference between PP's action and GW's prior actions is that GW was simultaneously strong-arming the online stores and limiting supply to the FLGS at the same time to drive sales to their own channels. PP's actions seem more designed to push sales towards the local level support, and for those without local level support, without a doubt, higher prices suck, but they are supported by the same online outlets as before, just for somewhat more money.

-edit-

1. Restic sucks. We get it. Even guys who are supporters of PP hate the stuff. Has it gotten better? Yes. Do we all wish it would go away? Yes. Statements such as "I will never buy PP products because they are Restic" don't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy Restic at any cost.

2. PP makes ugly models / don't make models I want to buy. We get it. The style is not for everyone. This doesn't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy models you don't want to buy at any cost.

 keezus wrote:
.

1. Restic sucks. We get it. Even guys who are supporters of PP hate the stuff. Has it gotten better? Yes. Do we all wish it would go away? Yes. Statements such as "I will never buy PP products because they are Restic" don't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy Restic at any cost.

I'll disagree on that one, while restic is not a favourite due to the hassle of clean up I will buy it as for sculpts that have been done with its properties in mind are fine (but it has to be better value than a metal/HIPS alternative because of the clean up issues)

The problem is that PP has some really nice minis at some pretty stupid prices. Even their best minis are too expensive at MSRP to justify on their own merits. Only PP's loyal gamers will find enough added value to the IP to justify the MSRP, which defeats the whole "attracting new customers" schtick.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The problem is that PP has some really nice minis at some pretty stupid prices. Even their best minis are too expensive at MSRP to justify on their own merits. Only PP's loyal gamers will find enough added value to the IP to justify the MSRP, which defeats the whole "attracting new customers" schtick.

I'll give that a "hell yeah".

I don't think anyone agrees with ANYONE's MSRP; that's why everyone sells it for cheaper, and I think everyone but GW realizes that and accounts for it in their MSRP, so we all feel like we're getting a bargain.

But I don't like it when the company steps in and tries to tell us we're selling/buying it to cheap. Let the stores fight over that; those that don't get it right will go under.

I don't know Stormonu, I have bought Bones models and some Wargames Factory stuff at full retail and felt fine about the decision, not to mention a lot of nice boutique models from CMoN when they were one of the few stores with imports. There are price/value ratios that people accept, even at MSRP.

But yes, I also get irritated when a manufacturer tries to tell a store how cheaply they are allowed to sell me something. Very irritated.

And that's where you're wrong. I don't mind paying Corvus Belli's RRP's (which, per model in pretty much any size class, are usually even higher than PP's by quite a bit). That's not even a matter of simply not needing as many; I'm fairly sure my PanO alone stands at north of a hundred models by now.

But the reason I don't mind is the quality of those models. PP, while they do sell some stuff I like well enough, on balance simply doesn't really sell too many sculpts that are good enough to justify the absolute premium pricing they seem to think it's worth.

In a few months we'll be able to get Mierce's metal infantry at less than PP infantry, RRP vs RRP, for crying out loud...

 keezus wrote:
1. Restic sucks. We get it. Even guys who are supporters of PP hate the stuff. Has it gotten better? Yes. Do we all wish it would go away? Yes. Statements such as "I will never buy PP products because they are Restic" don't add any value to the conversation because as a customer, you will never buy Restic at any cost.

Privateer makes metal miniatures. As well as excellent resin casts. And they have non-PVC plastic kits (also good). Pointing that out and talking about how bad or good one material is over another relative to the price is exactly appropriate to the conversation. It adds a ton to what we are talking about.

If PP wants its customer base to play GW plastic prices, it should be the same plastic. If not, the market will identify the real cost and if they prop up the price by going after discounters then they'll simply not sell to the people below the artificial price floor.

Restic very much matters to the conversation about price and discounting because it is a cheap and undesirable material.

Hopefully the new edition comes with a massive overhaul into a new plastic. More like the Transfinite Emergence Projector. In that material I will happily pay full retail.

 Stormonu wrote:
I don't think anyone agrees with ANYONE's MSRP; that's why everyone sells it for cheaper, and I think everyone but GW realizes that and accounts for it in their MSRP, so we all feel like we're getting a bargain.

But I don't like it when the company steps in and tries to tell us we're selling/buying it to cheap. Let the stores fight over that; those that don't get it right will go under.

The old WGF MSRP was right on. Bones' medium sized minis, like Giants, griffons and small dragons are all attractively priced. Historical sets by Victrix and the Perrys seem decent off the bat. Proxie, eccentric Minis, MEdge, Abandoned Frontier, Shieldwolf, and even Avatars of War (boxed sets only) have prices that feel reasonable. Some of Mantic and Wyrd's offerings are still good value even at retail prices. Yes, discounts make everything better, but some ranges don't require deep discounts just to stop feeling like a rip off.


And it turns out some discontinued GW plastics are unfortunately a steal at MSRP...

NoggintheNog wrote:
All this talk about how much better it is to have the models stocked.

While completely ignoring that no FLGS has the space or stock funding to carry the vast number of SKUs PP actually have.

In the UK, I only know of a few places that have the full range. All of them are hybrids with b&M stores backed by huge online sales - Wayland, Element, Dark Sphere, Troll Trader (although they are stocking less it seems).

The FLGS model is broken in the context of large games because they simply cannot stock it all. that makes this move by PP, as it was previously from GW, a move to channel sales into their own web store more than anything altruistic.

I do. I carry 99% of everything PP has in stock. My problem is usually PP being out of stock of models I need. It takes a bit of wall space, but we've always carried everything.

Stores different in the UK maybe? I know many stores in the US carrying a huge line of PP. But less now than a couple of years ago. As time goes on, and stores notice they have more players, but less sales, they start to question keeping up the support for a game. And unlike GW, i don't think PP has much of a webstore. Some stuff, books/bodger games/RPG but very few models.

Stores different in the UK maybe?

Yep. For every well run and organized place I've seen, with good lighting and decent space to play, there's at least one which resembles that cupboard/closet/garage/shed you've been meaning to clear out since 1998 - that may or may not include GWs.

Probably the whole small country/space is expensive thing us tiny island nations contend with. Retai space in decent locations can be expensive (recent years, not so much, but I'm sure it's headed back that way) rates are expensive once you're outside of your initial startup period (where there are concessions) etc etc.

As far as I can tell right now, starting a FLGS in the UK (and I mean taking a proper run at it, not just finding a low cost unit and stocking some Magic cards) would probably take an investment of capital that would take too many years to pay off for most people.

I believe PP is pushing the idea that people aren't subsidising brick and mortar, they are subsidising the game. If the flgs die, then the game will certainly shrink from lack of exposure and community. If brick and mortar stores didn't benefit games then those companies wouldn't bother to get those stores to sell them or host events. Without brick and mortar support, Warmahordes becomes a very niche game very quickly. This may be fine for some, but PP looks to believe that the vast majority of players prefer b&m by a large enough margin to justify this move. This is a case of them trying to protect people from a tragedy of the commons; if one player buys online to play at a flgs there's no problem, when a huge margin of players do those stores scale back or cease support, cutting those players out. People may disagree that this is the best way to manage the issue or on the degree of the problem but when making the (not all that unreasonable) assumptions I have above, the logic is sound.

Personally I've come to the conclusion that letting discounters discount is fine, because then stores will innovate and/or players will learn after eating the consequences of their own actions, and it'll all be better off in the long run. But then I honestly think that when it comes to tragedy of the commons, the best solution is just to tell people the result their collective actions will achieve and let them decide for themselves.

 MattofWar wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:

Because that +1 isn't actually going to the B&M stores, ergo it isn't really a subsidy as the money goes to the OLGS instead which...seems mildly counter-productive but I guess they feel that without discounts nobody would ever opt to "delivered to my door without fuss"?

Okay I see what is being said now. So it's not a subsidy but an extra amount you have to pay so the online store can have even better margins that they can use to reduce shipping charges so the end cost to the customer is the same as the previous discount.

So subsidy is the wrong word, but an extra fee to artificially prop up one business model over another would be more accurate.

Yep, to prop up the OLGS business model.
People---and probably the majority---will still buy the cheaper OLGS available stuff.
This bump in OLGS prices will still likely be much cheaper than a majority of b&m stores could sell for.
Add in free shipping over a threshold and no sales tax for many/most OLGSs and they're still way ahead.

The mom and pop chestnut is just that. While the big companies would certainly love to have free demos and what-not at b&m's only the ones that provide exclusive event items and support for free or low cost are putting their money where their mouths are.

Also, it is funny that by throwing one faction against the other, the companies diffuse anger away from themselves. Suddenly, it's those blasted FLGS guys. I don't have a store and/or I don't want to pay MSRP even if I have a local store because those guys haven't 'evolved'. Meanwhile staunch FLGS supporters harp on people not 'paying where they play' and even sometimes defend crap LGSs. Both sides have valid points but we get tied up pissing on about the other gamers and the company keeps pulling in the cash.

Joey will still take a 25% or 20% discount with no sales tax and free shipping over x dollars rather than spend full MSRP + tax at the FLGS for the most part.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Stores different in the UK maybe?

Yep. For every well run and organized place I've seen, with good lighting and decent space to play, there's at least one which resembles that cupboard/closet/garage/shed you've been meaning to clear out since 1998 - that may or may not include GWs.

Probably the whole small country/space is expensive thing us tiny island nations contend with. Retai space in decent locations can be expensive (recent years, not so much, but I'm sure it's headed back that way) rates are expensive once you're outside of your initial startup period (where there are concessions) etc etc.

As far as I can tell right now, starting a FLGS in the UK (and I mean taking a proper run at it, not just finding a low cost unit and stocking some Magic cards) would probably take an investment of capital that would take too many years to pay off for most people.

Several terms pop up in my retailer discussion groups, one is "buy yourself a job". Refers to either the purchase of a store that the new owner will work at, or the investment money to build a store you will work at. If the store only produces a profit that pays you your salary, they you "bought yourself a job". Which is fine, if that's what you want to do with your life. Bad if you opened the store and need it to you pay you back it's cost plus a salary.

I think the best stores are built by the people that want to own a game store, and want to have a good one. Good is a bit subjective, and doesn't mean profitable. Most people that start a store want to see people in playing games, having some fun, get to play themselves, and carry a lot of great games. Doesn't always make you the most money.

Some of those crappy little stores make more money. They only sell the top products like magic, and everything is geared towards profit. Customer service, organized play, play space etc are only there as a way of making more money. They aren't going to pay rent on space for you to play miniature games on tables. But they'll pay back the meager investment of some boxes, singles, chairs and tables pretty quick. With the way things are going, this is the type of store most communities are going to get.

This may not be the type of store that PP thinks promotes their games. I expect they have some decent data from their pressganger program. I'd be curious to see what their numbers are the conclusions they drew from them.

We do have something in the UK called industrial estates, not sure whether there's a US equivalent or what they may be commonly referred to as.

Contrary to the name, often nothing more industrial than a tyre shop or perhaps the occasional small engineering firm tends to occur, but what they do tend to be is a source of units that have a much lower cost/sq/ft than traditional retail space, with lower overhead, and most of the successful places I'm aware of tend to be some variation on this model, or the aforementioned broom cupboard, which, I totally agree, is probably the way forward in terms of commercial viability. I'd just love a proper, thriving community hub, but, especially in non-urban UK, the economics don't stack.

Here n St. Louis we have about 10 LGS and Miniaturemarket within a half hour drive of my house. Miniaturemarket has their brick and mortar store 2 miles from me and they do events in store mainly on the weekend. Local stores do no discount and still thrive here. The one I favor has an online presence as well, but have tables for card, board and miniature games every night. They are also the local magic the gathering tournament scene. They carry all privateer press stuff and travel to the big shows like adepticon and Gencon. They are located in the same spot miniaturemarket was 8 or so years ago and have done great, they even have a boardgame library that you can join the club and go pull any one of the store copies off the shelf and play at the table. It is very possible to carry everything and still compete against the big bad online retailers, even when they offer 30% and are as close to pick the stuff up from as the brick and mortar store.

 Azreal13 wrote:
We do have something in the UK called industrial estates, not sure whether there's a US equivalent or what they may be commonly referred to as.

Contrary to the name, often nothing more industrial than a tyre shop or perhaps the occasional small engineering firm tends to occur, but what they do tend to be is a source of units that have a much lower cost/sq/ft than traditional retail space, with lower overhead, and most of the successful places I'm aware of tend to be some variation on this model, or the aforementioned broom cupboard, which, I totally agree, is probably the way forward in terms of commercial viability. I'd just love a proper, thriving community hub, but, especially in non-urban UK, the economics don't stack.

Over here they call them industrial parks, but in a similar fashion, they are more often warehouses, offices, and some retail in them, rather than true industrial. I know of a few shops that have tried them with various success.

I looked into them when i had to move both stores a couple years back. Sadly, all of them were way off the beaten track, down back roads or other places hard to even find. It was a huge gamble that those would work. Huge amount of space, but monetizing that space could be tough. One store i know of had to close, partly due to parking trouble. You'd think tons of spaces. But one of the other tenants was some type of trade school with a large amount of people needing parking. Good retail space has a number of variables, and lack of parking can be one that hurts you badly.

 Theophony wrote:
Here n St. Louis we have about 10 LGS and Miniaturemarket within a half hour drive of my house. Miniaturemarket has their brick and mortar store 2 miles from me and they do events in store mainly on the weekend. Local stores do no discount and still thrive here. The one I favor has an online presence as well, but have tables for card, board and miniature games every night. They are also the local magic the gathering tournament scene. They carry all privateer press stuff and travel to the big shows like adepticon and Gencon. They are located in the same spot miniaturemarket was 8 or so years ago and have done great, they even have a boardgame library that you can join the club and go pull any one of the store copies off the shelf and play at the table. It is very possible to carry everything and still compete against the big bad online retailers, even when they offer 30% and are as close to pick the stuff up from as the brick and mortar store.

Well, Game Nite doesn't go to Adepticon and Gencon (unless they changed something this year anyway), but they do hit all the local cons like Geekway, DieCon, and Archon, as well as every Wizard World con that isn't on the other side of the Rockies. Otherwise, can't agree with you more.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Here n St. Louis we have about 10 LGS and Miniaturemarket within a half hour drive of my house. Miniaturemarket has their brick and mortar store 2 miles from me and they do events in store mainly on the weekend. Local stores do no discount and still thrive here. The one I favor has an online presence as well, but have tables for card, board and miniature games every night. They are also the local magic the gathering tournament scene. They carry all privateer press stuff and travel to the big shows like adepticon and Gencon. They are located in the same spot miniaturemarket was 8 or so years ago and have done great, they even have a boardgame library that you can join the club and go pull any one of the store copies off the shelf and play at the table. It is very possible to carry everything and still compete against the big bad online retailers, even when they offer 30% and are as close to pick the stuff up from as the brick and mortar store.

Well, Game Nite doesn't go to Adepticon and Gencon (unless they changed something this year anyway), but they do hit all the local cons like Geekway, DieCon, and Archon, as well as every Wizard World con that isn't on the other side of the Rockies. Otherwise, can't agree with you more.

I stand corrected then, I thought I was there when they were packing for Gencon this year, maybe it was another con that was the same time or close to it.

Sigh. Looks like you can only get their $90 Steelhead Heavy Cavalry Unit for $48 for their Deal of the Day. That's only 47% off!

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/pip41128.html

Miniature Market once again stands up to Privateer Press


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I wonder if someone can change the thread title?