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I get why the Riptide and Wraithknight are MCs, but why are Dreadknights MCs according to the fluff? Is there a reason for it or is it just to make Grey Knights cheesy?

Cause there's no clear difference between mc and walkers no more. So yep, for

Because it is a guy strapped into a monstrous pair of trousers and so clearly is not a walker

Isnt a drednought the same thing but just a stump that eats through a straw?

To be honest, where Grey Knights are concerned, the reason is "Because Matt Ward". In the first version (now replaced) if there was a way of slightly tweaking the rules to make them more broken, it was taken. This is an example.

At the same time, I'd guess the argument put forward to the rest of the design studio was "to make it play differently to the dreadnought, which is also in their codex".

This is just the continuing issue of walkers versus monsterous creatures. Making a model a Monsterous Creature generally increases its effectiveness exponentially. The only thing lost is some immunity to small arms fire.

Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

pm713 wrote:
Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

All Tau suits are fluid in their movements and the Riptide is just a larger version of the same tech. If Riptides became walkers then so would Crisis and Stealth suits. Also, Tau tech is 'smoother' than Imperial tech with everything being more efficient (read the Fire Warrior book for a comparison of IoM transports to the Orca) so they aren't as machine-like as walkers are (the Dreadnought for example waddles everywhere).

Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

That's quite a bad definition of what a walker is to be honest as there are a few open-topped walkers, such as sentinels, pentient engines and war walkers, so why can't the Dreadknight be an open-topped walker? The answer clearly (to me anyway) is that it would suck.

There is no defending the choice between MC and Walker through some concept that one is more fluid than the other. It is an artificial term reflecting a choice of crunch rules and has nothing to do with fluff.

SGTPozy wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

That's quite a bad definition of what a walker is to be honest as there are a few open-topped walkers, such as sentinels, pentient engines and war walkers, so why can't the Dreadknight be an open-topped walker? The answer clearly (to me anyway) is that it would suck.

Yes but Sentinels and War-Walkers expose very little of the operator compared to a dreadknight (which has as all 4 limbs and the operator's head exposed). The Armored sentinel can be enclosed and the war-walkers have shields around the cock-pit atleast.

A dreadknight is basically this in a nutshell.



As for the Penitent Engine, I was not aware that was considered a walker.

SGTPozy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

All Tau suits are fluid in their movements and the Riptide is just a larger version of the same tech. If Riptides became walkers then so would Crisis and Stealth suits. Also, Tau tech is 'smoother' than Imperial tech with everything being more efficient (read the Fire Warrior book for a comparison of IoM transports to the Orca) so they aren't as machine-like as walkers are (the Dreadnought for example waddles everywhere).

I'm sorry but that's a load of nonsense, a riptide is still a machine with armour plating and mechanics that can go wrong. It should suffer from the same rules as mechanical walkers as dreadnoughts as should the wraithknight and Dreadknight.

A monstrous creature profile is supposed to cover large living organisms not machines. The reasons for MC are purely for rules advantage and cheese not for any reason of fluff!

The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Walker profiles should cover all mechanical vehicles that use appendages to move regardless of how they are piloted.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Most walkers usually have to have a some what enclosed cockpit or expose very little of the pilot. The Dreadknight comes closer to a giant metal exo-skeleton in that regard than it does a walker. Kind of like bigger power-armor or the Centurions.

That's quite a bad definition of what a walker is to be honest as there are a few open-topped walkers, such as sentinels, pentient engines and war walkers, so why can't the Dreadknight be an open-topped walker? The answer clearly (to me anyway) is that it would suck.

Yes but Sentinels and War-Walkers expose very little of the operator compared to a dreadknight (which has as all 4 limbs and the operator's head exposed). The Armored sentinel can be enclosed and the war-walkers have shields around the cock-pit atleast.

A dreadknight is basically this in a nutshell.



As for the Penitent Engine, I was not aware that was considered a walker.

At what level of exposure does an open-topped walker turn into a MC then? Doesn't the Dreadknight pilot have some sort of force field too? If that is true, then your point is invalid.

Also, that picture is very inaccurate as it is terminator armour over terminator armour as it has a 2+ save; not 3+ and the pilot is in terminator armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why does it make sense for a Riptide to be a MC? I see the argument for the Wraithknight but not a Riptide.

All Tau suits are fluid in their movements and the Riptide is just a larger version of the same tech. If Riptides became walkers then so would Crisis and Stealth suits. Also, Tau tech is 'smoother' than Imperial tech with everything being more efficient (read the Fire Warrior book for a comparison of IoM transports to the Orca) so they aren't as machine-like as walkers are (the Dreadnought for example waddles everywhere).

I'm sorry but that's a load of nonsense, a riptide is still a machine with armour plating and mechanics that can go wrong. It should suffer from the same rules as mechanical walkers as dreadnoughts as should the wraithknight and Dreadknight.

A monstrous creature profile is supposed to cover large living organisms not machines. The reasons for MC are purely for rules advantage and cheese not for any reason of fluff!

Is a space marine a walker then? It is in a mechanical suit with electronics, so surely that should be a walker too!

Its really simple.

If the model can scratch his face, then it can be a MC

Dreadnoughts obviously cannot reach there face so its a walker.
Sentinels have no hands
Pentient engines have no hands
ect ect

 Desubot wrote:
Its really simple.

If the model can scratch his face, then it can be a MC

Dreadnoughts obviously cannot reach there face so its a walker.
Sentinels have no hands
Pentient engines have no hands
ect ect

My conscript can scratch his face, so is he a MC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The same reason Wraithknights and Riptides are: To sell more Citadel plastic kits with superior rules. The best thing that can ever happen to a big unit is to be rated as a MC.

Super heavy walkers are better than MCs, especially the IK with its 5/4/3+ invulnerable save, armour 13 and D strength cc.

Does that mean they have to re-define the Orkanauts ? Im sure they could manage the face scratching thing if the pilot re-directed the claw and punched it in the face. The arm seems long enough to. Also the riptide dosnt seem capable of even reaching its head (the arms look too short) and its a monstrous creature.

Hmm mabye i have to rephrase that as things with actual hands and not handy attachments count as not vehicles

Riptide hands are retracted in.

GW just needs to make a new unit type: Monstrous Walkers (or something like that) and give them a mixture of walker and MC rules.
For example, some sort of damage table, scrapping AP2 cc, making unwieldy affect them etc.

Personally i think there should be no vehicles. but thats my personal opinion.

And on the issue of monstrous creatures, some one mind explaining how you can poison a Riptide or Dreadknight realistically ?

Is there some kind of metal poison out there I am currently unaware of or do they aim for where the pilot would be and get lucky ?

Also does Haywire work against monstrous creatures or only on things defined as mechanical ?

Desu! Come play Kill Team with me! I've just been getting into it again and I forgot how fun it is.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
And on the issue of monstrous creatures, some one mind explaining how you can poison a Riptide or Dreadknight realistically ?

Is there some kind of metal poison out there I am currently unaware of or do they aim for where the pilot would be and get lucky ?

Also does Haywire work against monstrous creatures or only on things defined as mechanical ?

5th ed explained it as localized EMP bursts and acidic substance....

I agree with you, but then we spark the Snipers vs Necrons/absolutely anything firing bullets vs Daemons argument for the billionth time

The Imperial Answer wrote:
And on the issue of monstrous creatures, some one mind explaining how you can poison a Riptide or Dreadknight realistically ?

Is there some kind of metal poison out there I am currently unaware of or do they aim for where the pilot would be and get lucky ?

Also does Haywire work against monstrous creatures or only on things defined as mechanical ?

100% agree, which is another reason why they should make a new unit class, however how do you poison an Astartes? They are covered in armour.

Well there are joints gaps and eye holes.
The concept is

Roll to hit: Did i hit?
Roll to wounds: did the poison needle penetrate the skin? or did the round hit something vital like an artery?
Armor saves: success: Damn it hit the armor and stoped it. Failed: It went right in between the armor joint. or right in the peep hole.

as for the Riptide? Eh i guess you could blind it if you hit the eye lense.

The Dread: its only a baby carrier

The wraith: i have no clue how your bonee bone works.

Edit: Also quickjager do i know you IRL? im terrabad with online names :/

This has me wondering, are eldar titans defined as creatures too given they're grown like wraith-knights are ?

Not rules-wise, but fluffwise they will be

 Desubot wrote:
Its really simple.

If the model can scratch his face, then it can be a MC

Dreadnoughts obviously cannot reach there face so its a walker.
Sentinels have no hands
Pentient engines have no hands
ect ect

PEngines have at least two hands, which might end in giant buzzsaws. You could shave with those, if you were careful... and not an insane, pain-maddened heretic.