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One of the most common things I have seen is that people often say that it is impossible for a space marine to only have a thousand astartes. Which I agree with.

So the purposes of this thread is debate whether a Space Marine Truly has more than a thousand. And this thread will be used for reference for any debate that might occur from it.

This will also list what space marine doctrine is and how they are commonly deployed to demystify the whole idea that space marines are deployed on the frontlines like they were in the Great Crusades.

*Authors Note: these are estimations and numbers*

According to the Codex Lore on the Ultramarines Chapter a very common chapter to use for Examples like these:

There are:


Manpower/Organization
HeadQuarters and Staff

Chapter Master staff

Marneus Calgar
27 Honour Guard Astartes
1 Land Raider (Maximus)
1,700 Chapter Equerries (Chapter Serfs) and Servitors
Chaplain Cassius

total (Including Pilots: 2): 31


Armory

Fennias Maxim, Master of the Forge
27 Techmarines
95 Tech-Servitors
52 Main Battle Tanks (multiple types) (We don't know what these are)
25 Predators (2 Per) (50)
8 Vindicators (2 per) (16)
9 Whirlwinds (2 per) (18)
12 Land Raiders (2 per) (24)
14 Gunships (Stormtalons and Stormravens) (19?)
24 Centurion warsuits (24)
19 Land Speeders (38)
Assault Bikes and Attack Bikes

Total: 28 (but with pilots: 217 )

Apothecarion

Corpus Helix, Chief Apothecary
12 Apothecaries

Total: 13

Librarius:

Varro Tigurius, Chief Librarian
5 Epistolaries
9 Codiciers
10 Lexicaniums
3 Acolytes (Neophytes)

total: 28

Fleet

Master of the Fleet: Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius, an Astartes of the Ultramarines Chapter and Hero of Macragge, has been made the Master of the Ultramarines Chapter Fleet by Marneus Calgar
3 Battle Barges (usually A Space Marine Commander on Board) (3)
15 Strike Cruisers (Usually a Space Marine Commander) (15)
20 Escorts (Usually a Space marine Commander) (20)
35 Thunderhawks

Accordingly there are Thunderhawk Pilots usually two per: (70)
Total: 118*
*estimation gained from Codex and models. (Space marines leave a commander on board the Ships, as space marines also pilot thunderhawks)

4 Battle Companies -

2 Assualt Squads,
2 Devastator Squads,
And 6 Tactical Squads,
1 Command Squad,
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)

428 (including Dreadnoughts: 436)
4 Reserve Companies -

---- 2 Tactical Companies
10 Tactical Squads
1 Command Squad (5)
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)

1 Assault Company
10 Assault Squads
1 Command Squad, (5)
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)

1 Devastator Company
10 Devastator Squads
1 Command Squad, (5)
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)

Total 428 (including Dreadnoughts 436)


1 Scout Company

According to the Codex there are usually 10 Scout Squads, but sometimes there are 20, as scout squads are often either squads of 10 or 20 scouts per squad.. or sometimes it just says SCOUTS, it is reasonably to say that the chapter has
The Scout Company still has
1 Command Squad,
1 Chaplain,
1 Captain,
2 Dreadnoughts (sometimes)

Total: 207 (With Dreadnoughts 209)

Veteran Company

Company Captain
Chaplain
Command Squad
97 veterans
3 Dreadnoughts

Total: 107

Grand Total: 1653 without Dreadnoughts. With Dreadnoughts: 1671
it is impossible to see the chapter going down to only a thousand per a chapter as that would severely handicap the whole chapter.

This list also does not include the Tyranic War Veterans which the Ultramarines Do have.... The a thousand battle brothers is more of a symbol, of just how different the Current Space Marines are compared to their Great Crusade Counterparts.

(Taken From Codex Space Marine)


Doctrine:

According to the Codex Astartes, Space Marines are meant to be the ones that fall upon their prey's leadership, striking down the enemy warleaders instead of attacking the front line and assault forces. The Space marines are drop troopers, they are deployed into the heart of the enemies logistics and central command to deal with the enemy leaders. They are not meant to be the Imperial Guard or Imperial Army. They are equal to the modern day special forces, deploying to deal with threats but are not meant to serve a frontline battle role. But they can be deployed to do so. Space Marines also do wear camo armor as it is detailed in the codex Astartes to do so.. (Codex Space Marine, Forge World Red Scorpions)

Also in the codex it also heavily implies that space marines do not worship the emperor unless otherwise noted.*

It is a Complete myth that space marines fight in the front-lines of Combat.


*canon conflicts are bound to happen, various sources say different things on the matter of space marines religious side. There is a popular myth that space marines are warrior monks, when they are according to the lore soldiers, not warriors. As the Deception is seen in many of the Black Library books, marking the difference between a Soldier and a Warrior in 40k lore.



Warning: More Information will be added including weapon specs for bolters and power armor. Taken from IvanTiH and several threads. This thread will serve as a source for those to use in debates used.

If you wish to submit thread discussions on these matters please feel free to do so.



Sources:

Coming Soon.....

It turns out there isn't a lot of debate. Every set of numbers GW includes gives most Codex Chapters around 1,500 Marines; 1,000 is paper-strength for the line companies, it doesn't include command staff or vehicle crew, and they keep adding new folks to different Chapters that don't fit into the Veteran/Four Battle/Four Reserve/Scout forms they set up Apocalypse datasheets for.

Now if you really want something to grumble about numerical inconsistency with tell me where 2,200 Grey Knights vanished to in between the 3e book and the 5e book.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It turns out there isn't a lot of debate. Every set of numbers GW includes gives most Codex Chapters around 1,500 Marines; 1,000 is paper-strength for the line companies, it doesn't include command staff or vehicle crew, and they keep adding new folks to different Chapters that don't fit into the Veteran/Four Battle/Four Reserve/Scout forms they set up Apocalypse datasheets for.

Now if you really want something to grumble about numerical inconsistency with tell me where 2,200 Grey Knights vanished to in between the 3e book and the 5e book.

See that make senses. Grey Knights are all over the gaxaly and serve the inqusition they are basically outside the dictations of the imperium or Codex Astartes.

To me the 3rd ed had a Council instead of a SUPREME GRANDMASTA. Its a council of Grand Masters who decide the fate of the chapter as a whole.

Don't forget that some marines serve a double purpose. Codex Space Marines states on page 14 when discussing the battle companies:

"The Assault Squads may deploy as Bike Squads or Land Speeder crews and, along with their Devastator brethren, may even take to battle as Centurion warsuit pilots."

And also when discussing the 6th and 7th company:

"The 6th Company also trains in the use of bikes and may be deployed entirely as bike squadrons. Similarly, squads of the 7th are trained to fight with Land Speeders and Stormtalons, often acting as a light vehicle reserve formation."

Overall I do agree with the numbers though, and I think the 1000 marines standard is meant as a direction to the main fighting force (ie the ten Companies) and excluding the support, command and other marines that are needed to make the chapter a well-oiled army.

 tydrace wrote:
Don't forget that some marines serve a double purpose. Codex Space Marines states on page 14 when discussing the battle companies:

"The Assault Squads may deploy as Bike Squads or Land Speeder crews and, along with their Devastator brethren, may even take to battle as Centurion warsuit pilots."

And also when discussing the 6th and 7th company:

"The 6th Company also trains in the use of bikes and may be deployed entirely as bike squadrons. Similarly, squads of the 7th are trained to fight with Land Speeders and Stormtalons, often acting as a light vehicle reserve formation."

Overall I do agree with the numbers though, and I think the 1000 marines standard is meant as a direction to the main fighting force (ie the ten Companies) and excluding the support, command and other marines that are needed to make the chapter a well-oiled army.

I also agree as the codex doesn't explicity say how many scouts can be in a chapter.

As seen by the fact that the ultramarines do not list how many scouts they actually have. It just says scouts.

Captain Antilochus,
Master of the Recruits[b]
Chaplain
Apothecary
Scout Squads

So that could be up to 200 or ridiculous numbers.

Who the hell knows! As there are also full astartes in those groups as some scouts are actually full astartes wearing power armor but they are assigned to the tenth company until the reserve and battle companies are open.

If you play the game Chapter Master you will figure out that there is no way a space marine chapter cannot be over 1000. 1000 is just a number to enforce the idea not to be a space marine legion.

Do the numbers you have posted include the drivers for the Rhino's assigned to the Battle Companies, or are those numbers included in the "main battle tanks" for the armoury?

Nocturus wrote:
Do the numbers you have posted include the drivers for the Rhino's assigned to the Battle Companies, or are those numbers included in the "main battle tanks" for the armoury?

I did not include them because they have never ever provided any numbers on them but in the older codexes it does state they were driven by astartes. But it does not specifically say where they come from.

It probably doesn't affect the numbers much from the way you'v worked it out but you've gone rather OTT with regards to capital ships, the Ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers. The previous codex did put the Ultramarines as having 31 Thunderhawk Gunships, but according to Epic:Armageddon 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers would in fact have a capacity of 75 Gunships. You'd also be looking at 68-85 Landing Craft or 2-3 times that for Thunderhawk Transports.

 Gashrog wrote:
It probably doesn't affect the numbers much from the way you'v worked it out but you've gone rather OTT with regards to capital ships, the Ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers. The previous codex did put the Ultramarines as having 31 Thunderhawk Gunships, but according to Epic:Armageddon 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers would in fact have a capacity of 75 Gunships. You'd also be looking at 68-85 Landing Craft or 2-3 times that for Thunderhawk Transports.

Fixed it. Now it is in line with records.

Don't forget that Ultramarines also have 'Honour companies' like the one that fought at Armageddon.

Basically I think there is a lot of creative accounting going on in regards to the 1000 marines number and with the IoM in the state it is in, it is being tacitly encouraged/ ignored.

There are also unknown amounts of Marines seconded to the Deathwatch, an organisation that is also probably greater than chapter strength (we're the Inquisition, we make the rules - not follow them!)

I'm of the opinion that the "1000 marines" figure refers to the ground pounders only. Officers, support staff, drivers and grease monkeys aren't counted as part of a chapter's manpower limit because of how pants on head slowed it would be to not have dedicated staff and drivers.

Sonsoftherock wrote:
Don't forget that Ultramarines also have 'Honour companies' like the one that fought at Armageddon.

Basically I think there is a lot of creative accounting going on in regards to the 1000 marines number and with the IoM in the state it is in, it is being tacitly encouraged/ ignored.

There are also unknown amounts of Marines seconded to the Deathwatch, an organisation that is also probably greater than chapter strength (we're the Inquisition, we make the rules - not follow them!)

The Deathwatch is around a hundred thousand in number if they are really situated in every sector.

But yeah I agree.

WE have no idea how many honour companies there are.....

I'm of the opinion that the "1000 marines" figure refers to the ground pounders only. Officers, support staff, drivers and grease monkeys aren't counted as part of a chapter's manpower limit because of how pants on head slowed it would be to not have dedicated staff and drivers.

Yeah thats why I constantly bicker with the Warhammer 40k Fanon Admins about the 1000 number thing. I don't think it is possible for a space marine chapter to have only a 1000 astartes.

Some people will suggest the Reserve companies pilot the vehicles, but that's silly because there aren't even enough Reserve Marines to pilot the vehicles. I've seen other suggestions that the Companies provide their own drivers, which is also silly because that actually degrades them to 9 squads + command since they'd need 10 drivers.

1500+ definitely seems more realistic. Especially given the fluff for Sergeant Chronus which suggests he has his own subordinates from the Armory he is in charge of, as well as the 3rd Edition roster for the Ultramarines explicitly stating the vehicles and spacecraft came with full crew complements.

A salient point of doctrine is that marines are not automatically deployed under their own company. In the 3rd edition codex the Ultramarines 4th company was the only company at full strength, yet instead of being deployed together half of the company was assigned to an Explorator Protection Force under Captain Idaeus whilst the other 5 squads were.. not.

Another example is the Damocles Gulf Crusade wherein the Astartes component consisted of 5 ad-hoc companies formed by marines from a dozen chapters.

The Ultramarines Honour Company presented in the Eye of Terror Index Astartes articles was just such an ad-hoc formation, a company sized honour guard (lower case) comprising squads from different Ultramarine companies and their successors, not an 11th company where additional marines were hidden.

Addendum: Tyrannic War Veterans do would fall under the general 'veteran' listing, from their description in the 4th edition codex: "Over time, fully half of the 1st company was made up of Cassius' proteges."

 Gashrog wrote:
A salient point of doctrine is that marines are not automatically deployed under their own company. In the 3rd edition codex the Ultramarines 4th company was the only company at full strength, yet instead of being deployed together half of the company was assigned to an Explorator Protection Force under Captain Idaeus whilst the other 5 squads were.. not.

Another example is the Damocles Gulf Crusade wherein the Astartes component consisted of 5 ad-hoc companies formed by marines from a dozen chapters.

The Ultramarines Honour Company presented in the Eye of Terror Index Astartes articles was just such an ad-hoc formation, a company sized honour guard (lower case) comprising squads from different Ultramarine companies and their successors, not an 11th company where additional marines were hidden.

Addendum: Tyrannic War Veterans do would fall under the general 'veteran' listing, from their description in the 4th edition codex: "Over time, fully half of the 1st company was made up of Cassius' proteges."

True. But they still can't operate as well with only a thousand marines.

That is still too small of a number.

That bit about the tyranic war veterans was retconned in the fifth edition with it being outside of the company structure.