Continuing Rumors of WHFB 9th (Post-End Times) in Early Summer 2015

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**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

wuestenfux wrote:
Warhammer Fantasy going skirmish would kill it.
Enjoyable games such as in 40k take place at a larger scale.

The game's dying anyway - at least this way it gives the company a chance to reach the life boats.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Do you think Kirby's been planning this for months?

Months?

First leak (I am aware of) of Warhammer going Skirmish and a rumoured Nagash release to send WFB on it's way are from May 2014. At this point in time, Nagash and the concept of End Times was already in place.

Put a lead time of 12 months (?) to develop a miniature like Nagash (Glottkin, etc..) from concept to box, and you're looking at May 2013. Add another 6 months (?) of brainstorming and design talk to come up with and plan the End Times / New Warhammer in its rough framework, and you're looking at late fall 2013.

Best guess, the final decision to kill WFB was made after the 2012/2013 financial year, which ended in june 2013, so summer 2013. The option or possibility has probably been discussed long before that.

Alternative theory, "Warhammer Skirmish" was planned even longer, release mid-2014, but things didn't pan out or got stuck, and thus they pulled 40K 7th forward to 2014 (without enough time to develop a Dark Vengeance-replacement) and pushed the new Warhammer back, In that case, the decision probably goes back to around summer 2012, which, funny enough, was the summer Mark Wells allegedly had a falling out with Kirby and decided to leave at the end of 2012.

Fair point, but I have this dread feeling this summer that when 9th drops on us, we'll be looking at a game where you need a 10,000 point army minimum and goblins will be 5 for £20. How silly will we look if that happens?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pure conjecture on my part, but if I were converting Fantasy along the line of 40k, and I had GW's mindset, I'd do the following:

6 factions with unique factions names ,like they did with Astra Militarium ) to protect IP and annoy 3rd party people. I would have Elves, Chaos, Defenders of Light (Empire/Dwarves/Brettonia) Orcs merged with Ogres, Skaven, and Undead. Lizardmen could depart. Never liked them anyway

A starter set timed to go on sale at Christmas 2015

The ability to buy a complete warband in a box, or individual core units on sale to customise your own force. A warband in a box + a rulebook = one stop shop for GW's target market of kids getting their mums to throw down £150

Regular updates/rules in WD and dataslates on sale. Maximum profit for minimum cost.

Regular release schedule with limited edition stuff - get them sold out fast. Plenty of evidence to suggest this works.

Why am I, GW, doing this?

1. I'm in a poor financial state

2. The 40k template works - apply it to fantasy (which is gasping for air anyway)

3. My one man stores are well suited to get kids in for starting fantasy games.

4. My paint range is designed for quick and easy results which look good: base, wash, highlight, textured paint on bases. Easy.

5. All my games will use round bases - money saved.

6. Veterans don't contribute much to my profits, as they've jumped ship anyway, but I'll get forge world to throw them a bone from time to time or do a campaign every two years for the bigger games.

7. Skirmish games in dungeons will need new terrain sets. Cheap to make and can for sold for a decent price = more profit.

I could be wrong...

**Da Boss**

The game is dying due to poor decisions by the company, not any intrinsic problem with a mass battle game. The issue is the ridiculous prices of GW plastics, the ridiculous prices of the rules and the way the 8th edition rules push for bigger and bigger units.

In 6th and 7th edition Fantasy was a popular and widely played game. Kings of War is successful for Mantic despite being a mass battle fantasy game. Lots of historicals are mass battles and many people use 28mm miniatures for them.

The problems with Fantasy are GW's fault, and their solution will simply push more people to KoW.

**Bronzefists42**

Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.

If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.

But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.

**Yodhrin**

Bronzefists42 wrote:
Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.

If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.

But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.

Can you just clarify for me, in what sense do you consider a game with different models, different factions, different background, and different rules "keeping Fantasy intact"? This new game will be Warhammer Fantasy in the same sense that a wall ornament post-taxidermy is a Moose.

I doubt many will deny they needed to do something with Fantasy to boost sales, but lets not pretend that the path they've chosen is motivated by trying to preserve the heritage of the IP, like all their recent decisions this is the easiest and most short-term focused solution, and lets also remember that the reason they needed to do something with Fantasy in the first place is their own incompetent mismanagement of the property.

**Sinful Hero**

WF Skirmish sounds pretty cool to me, but I hope they keep lizardmen. They're the one big draw to me for fantasy, but I never had the drive or the change to start a full army before.

**TheSilo**

As a 40k player who tried to get into fantasy last year, this actually sounds cool. I tried playing with dwarves and woodelves but couldn't get past the sheer number of models necessary and just how boring most of the battles were. Watching people play at my FLGS was a snoozer, T4 looked exactly like T2.

I'd love a warband version in the vein of Mordheim (which is a lot of fun) if they expanded on some campaign/rpg elements.

**Theophony**

What are they going to do with all the armies they have done in display cases at warhammer world? Do you think they will spend the time, money, effort to rebate all those armies to round bases? Or do you think as a great financial decision they will just toss them all in a bin.

I really can't see them paying someone to pop them all off their old bases.

**Warhams-77**

This is like boxing. You get hit and hit and hit and hit... Back on your feet... Next round... bam bam bam... Back on your feet

Ok next round

This is pretty interesting - from Warseer

Harry

My final thought before I go paint something .... it is everybody's assumption that the rumoured 'six' will ALL be familiar.
that most stuff will be saved and crammed into one 'faction' or another.

The only two I am certain of is Humanity and Chaos.
You have to retain humanity to have some connection with the game. (But I don't think these will be familiar as the either Bretonnians or Empire 500 years on).
Chaos is as GW as .... square bases for fantasy Also ... they look set to win!

After that I wouldn't bet on anything.
I think Skaven stand the best shout. Rats seem to do well after a bit of death and destruction and they are also a GW creation. BUT they were introduced as Chaos Ratmen .... so they might get rolled into Chaos?
I think some sort of Undead must be in there ... it's not like they will be short of dead bodies after the dust settles on the End Times. Will they be familiar as either VC or TK? Can't see why they would.

Everything else (If for no other reason that it is too generic and un protected) seems to be set to be knocked back into the stone age or into the history books. High Elves sink? Dwarves disappear under the mountains? Elves return to tree hugging in the deep woods. Lizardmen leave the planet. Who's going to left who can put up a fight? ... and we still have slots to fill.

I wouldn't bet against Fishmen Ichthyosapiens ... no one is fighting in the oceans ... or Insect men ... insects survive everything ...or some sort of Sky living birdmen/angels type thing as no one is fighting in the air especially either.

There was rumour about a new race for Warhammer ages ago. I don't remember the details but their were two parts to it. 1) they needed to find the Fantasy equivalent of SM and 2) They had always been here, part of the warhammer world just not visible.

So a race that lived underground and stayed out of everyones way, (Bit like the Skaven ... assumed not to exist by most normal folk) under the sea or in the sky and had stayed out of everyones way?

Don't know if there was anything in it, can't even remember where I heard it ... but I honestly would NOT be surprised to see a new (protectable) race. (or two) ... Everything else is up in the air ... why not the warhammer races?!

Just to mess up everyones nice easy six factions.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404065-Warhammer-And-Now-For-Something-Completely-Different&p=7354174&viewfull=1#post7354174

Darnok

Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

Originally Posted by Harry
There was rumour about a new race for Warhammer ages ago. I don't remember the details but their were two parts to it. 1) they needed to find the Fantasy equivalent of SM and 2) They had always been here, part of the warhammer world just not visible.

The pre-undead Morghasts fit that bill: the Hammurai, demigods sent by Ptra God of Light, massive winged creatures in arcane armour with powerful weapons. Yup, already established during the ET books, just needs some magic mumbo-jumbo to bring the "living versions" back in numbers.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Yodhrin wrote:
Bronzefists42 wrote:
Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.

If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.

But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.

Can you just clarify for me, in what sense do you consider a game with different models, different factions, different background, and different rules "keeping Fantasy intact"? This new game will be Warhammer Fantasy in the same sense that a wall ornament post-taxidermy is a Moose.

I doubt many will deny they needed to do something with Fantasy to boost sales, but lets not pretend that the path they've chosen is motivated by trying to preserve the heritage of the IP, like all their recent decisions this is the easiest and most short-term focused solution, and lets also remember that the reason they needed to do something with Fantasy in the first place is their own incompetent mismanagement of the property.

Things have always changed with Warhammer,

I remember beginning with small narrative campaign box sets (Battle of Orcs Drift and the Tragedy of McDeath) which are long gone, using a rule set which is also long gone (although the current one uses the same stats)

so this new version may not be one you like (while I'm not fussed about reality bubbles I don't like the sound of all the races being more 'touched' by chaos), the rules may not suit you, but it will still be Warhammer,

just like 8th edition is still Warhammer compared to the 1st edition

Now I'm certainly not saying a lot of the issues leading up to this haven't been down to mind numbin stupidty from GW, but once they made those decisions something has to change otherwise the whole game would end up in the same place as Dark Future and Dread Fleet

Wait and see what happens, as long as there are releases for this new system fans of 'original' warhammer will port them across to the old game (and hopefully the lack of cost of digital army books will mean GW will keep selling 8th at least online so the game will not die as long as people want it to survive)

**MrMoustaffa**

They had to do something, fantasy is as dead as a doornail in my area. Some of the boxes have visible dust on them, and both stores keep it off to the side so games like X Wing and warmahordes have more space.

At least if they go skirmish people might start up again. I remember looking at the costs to start fantasy once and laughing, and at the time I played IG AND Orks

From what I've seen in my area, its to the point where they can't make it any worse. Its to the point where something has to change if its to stick around. I can understand the vets being upset, but if fantasy is as bad everywhere else as it is here, change is inevitable

**Sigvatr**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.

Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".

You're forgetting GW's forging a narrative. Let's speculate for a minute. These games are based on the premise of you are the hero, you are the commander.

Let's say it's a skirmish game in a dungeon. You can't see every skaven model, you can't see hordes of rats bearing down on your beleaguered band of Empire soldiers. It's dramatic tension for the game. It fits well into GW's forging a narrative, even if every model is not on the table.

I got ya, but that isn't WHFB then. That's Mordheim. The only appeal of WHFB over other games is the large scale, formations, tactical movement etc. Ye know, actual /armies/ fighting each other instead of small units as in 40k.

**Da Boss**

Aye. Fantasy has always been a "blocks of troops" game, and there's nothing suggesting that type of game is not popular. The problem is the high prices and large unit sizes. Scale the game back down to 20 man blocks as standard and cut the model prices, and we'd see an upsurge.

Ah well. I've got my armies, I've got the KOW rules, I can still play a mass battle game.

Will be watching this new game with interest but I doubt it will be built as a game so much as a "money making strategy".

GW, I would be disappointed if I hadn't given up caring about what you do.

**migooo**

You know they look too sci fi for me, These were the things I was most interest in, now seeing them is rather disheartening.

Oh well i can hope for the grey seer or warlord to be any better.

**gorgon**

Honestly, I think the round bases/tray with round holes thing makes perfect sense for a game that trends toward dispersed formations at small sizes and ranked at large sizes. It sounds like a much more flexible edition. And while anything's possible, GW actually doesn't have much track record of forcing wholesale, army wide base changes. I expect that we'll get the same kind of statement on that like we usually get.

This has a much better chance of getting me back into FB than another tweaked edition. I never bothered getting the rulebook for 8th, and don't even have a current army book for my army.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Da Boss wrote:
The game is dying due to poor decisions by the company, not any intrinsic problem with a mass battle game. The issue is the ridiculous prices of GW plastics, the ridiculous prices of the rules and the way the 8th edition rules push for bigger and bigger units.

In 6th and 7th edition Fantasy was a popular and widely played game. Kings of War is successful for Mantic despite being a mass battle fantasy game. Lots of historicals are mass battles and many people use 28mm miniatures for them.

The problems with Fantasy are GW's fault, and their solution will simply push more people to KoW.

Agree with this entirely, but rightly or wrongly, GW are where they are. The heady days of 6th and 7th will never be re-captured as technology and new competitors have moved wargaming on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bronzefists42 wrote:
Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.

If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.

But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.

I doubt if it will be exclusively dungeons, more likely blasted landscapes and ruined towns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Theophony wrote:
What are they going to do with all the armies they have done in display cases at warhammer world? Do you think they will spend the time, money, effort to rebate all those armies to round bases? Or do you think as a great financial decision they will just toss them all in a bin.

I really can't see them paying someone to pop them all off their old bases.

They'd probably just keep them, as they'd still look good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
They had to do something, fantasy is as dead as a doornail in my area. Some of the boxes have visible dust on them, and both stores keep it off to the side so games like X Wing and warmahordes have more space.

At least if they go skirmish people might start up again. I remember looking at the costs to start fantasy once and laughing, and at the time I played IG AND Orks

From what I've seen in my area, its to the point where they can't make it any worse. Its to the point where something has to change if its to stick around. I can understand the vets being upset, but if fantasy is as bad everywhere else as it is here, change is inevitable

So you weren't interested in collecting 200+ Skaven models for a decent sized game?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sigvatr wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.

Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".

You're forgetting GW's forging a narrative. Let's speculate for a minute. These games are based on the premise of you are the hero, you are the commander.

Let's say it's a skirmish game in a dungeon. You can't see every skaven model, you can't see hordes of rats bearing down on your beleaguered band of Empire soldiers. It's dramatic tension for the game. It fits well into GW's forging a narrative, even if every model is not on the table.

I got ya, but that isn't WHFB then. That's Mordheim. The only appeal of WHFB over other games is the large scale, formations, tactical movement etc. Ye know, actual /armies/ fighting each other instead of small units as in 40k.

They'll probably introduce an apocalypse style expansion for Fantasy to get round this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the round bases/tray with round holes thing makes perfect sense for a game that trends toward dispersed formations at small sizes and ranked at large sizes. It sounds like a much more flexible edition. And while anything's possible, GW actually doesn't have much track record of forcing wholesale, army wide base changes. I expect that we'll get the same kind of statement on that like we usually get.

This has a much better chance of getting me back into FB than another tweaked edition. I never bothered getting the rulebook for 8th, and don't even have a current army book for my army.

I feel exactly the same. Version 8.1, with a few tweaks would have me reaching for a revolver

But a new game where I only have to paint 30 models? I could do that in 2-3 days and be more likely to sign up for it.

**wuestenfux**

Da Boss wrote:
Aye. Fantasy has always been a "blocks of troops" game, and there's nothing suggesting that type of game is not popular. The problem is the high prices and large unit sizes. Scale the game back down to 20 man blocks as standard and cut the model prices, and we'd see an upsurge.

Ah well. I've got my armies, I've got the KOW rules, I can still play a mass battle game.

Will be watching this new game with interest but I doubt it will be built as a game so much as a "money making strategy".

GW, I would be disappointed if I hadn't given up caring about what you do.

If the game is released this summer, all decisions are already made.
Cutting prices is not an option.

**jorny**

Well, this at least makes thedecision wheter or not I should start playing Kings of War easier for me. Have to do something of my WHFB armies.

**Platuan4th**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
We wanted WHFB to go back to its skirmish roots

No "we" didn't. I don't remember this being a major(or majority) request.

**Sigvatr**

I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.

In the end, it's another game GW would try to make a success just by their name alone - and vets will not be interested in it at all and stick to 8th.

...all of this assuming the news are actually true.

/e: Ehem, I don't think that after so many years, calling WHFB a skirmish game at heart is that appropriate

**Paradigm**

Sigvatr wrote:
I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.

For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.

And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.

**agnosto**

Paradigm wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.

For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.

And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.

And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.

**wuestenfux**

Maybe GW doesn't want another game at the same level as 40k which would be a contender.
A game at a smaller scale could sell well especially since there is a community of players who own already the models.

**Yodhrin**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
Bronzefists42 wrote:
Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.

If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.

But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.

Can you just clarify for me, in what sense do you consider a game with different models, different factions, different background, and different rules "keeping Fantasy intact"? This new game will be Warhammer Fantasy in the same sense that a wall ornament post-taxidermy is a Moose.

I doubt many will deny they needed to do something with Fantasy to boost sales, but lets not pretend that the path they've chosen is motivated by trying to preserve the heritage of the IP, like all their recent decisions this is the easiest and most short-term focused solution, and lets also remember that the reason they needed to do something with Fantasy in the first place is their own incompetent mismanagement of the property.

Things have always changed with Warhammer,

I remember beginning with small narrative campaign box sets (Battle of Orcs Drift and the Tragedy of McDeath) which are long gone, using a rule set which is also long gone (although the current one uses the same stats)

so this new version may not be one you like (while I'm not fussed about reality bubbles I don't like the sound of all the races being more 'touched' by chaos), the rules may not suit you, but it will still be Warhammer,

just like 8th edition is still Warhammer compared to the 1st edition

Now I'm certainly not saying a lot of the issues leading up to this haven't been down to mind numbin stupidty from GW, but once they made those decisions something has to change otherwise the whole game would end up in the same place as Dark Future and Dread Fleet

Wait and see what happens, as long as there are releases for this new system fans of 'original' warhammer will port them across to the old game (and hopefully the lack of cost of digital army books will mean GW will keep selling 8th at least online so the game will not die as long as people want it to survive)

I don't agree. There are things which are fundamental to Fantasy, not least the Warhammer World itself, which will no longer exist in this new game. We're not talking about killing off one or two characters, or adding a new unit, we're talking about changing everything in one fell swoop. I've been playing GW games for twenty years, when in that time have they completely swept the board clean and brought in entirely new factions, background, rules, and setting all in one go? When in that time was Fantasy ever without recognisable versions of the main factions we have today? Certainly since 3E things have never changed this drastically, and even in the 2E Bestiary the map of the world is the same as the modern one just with less detail, and the broad strokes of the human factions of the Old World are laid out, along with the various types of Elves, the Dwarves etc. Realistically once GW hit 3E Fantasy and 2E 40K, they have tinkered around the edges, but the fundamentals have remained broadly the same.

Think about that for a moment; 3E Warhammer Fantasy came out in 1991, that IP has maintained broadly the same form, fiction and aesthetic since I was five years old. Trying to paint these rumoured upcoming changes as having any precedent that's even remotely recent is borderline disingenuous.

**CalgarsPimpHand**

agnosto wrote:
Paradigm wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.

For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.

And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.

And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.

The question was, can GW write proper skirmish rules? And to answer, all three of those systems are excellent skirmish rulesets (if a bit dated in the cases of Necromunda and Mordheim). The sales, or lack thereof, of all those systems have more to do with GW's mismanagement than anything else. So save your cheap shots for someplace that makes sense.

**Mymearan**

NAVARRO wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases.

As Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote above your post, and it's not something that I had thought of up until he mentioned it, but going to round bases is a cost cutting measure. They no longer have to support two different styles of base, and can stop making movement trays.

So really this is about cost cutting, and never about the good of the game.

But for stacking the minis into regiments they would probably use LOTR style of movement trays? Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right? Looks better on some 40k minis but again it surely looks like they are going into extremes to make people rebase all their armies, I wonder why?
I see what you guys are saying and to an extent does make sense, maybe its just me not understanding how saving money on bases you risk destroying decades of WFB armies. Visually Lotr basing system looks pants too.

Replying to 3:1 ration, its different to have 3 blocks of 50 gobbos than 3 blocks of 10, even if other armies have less. I also collect other systems armies and skirmish so the main reason I do WFB is the overall look of the army, being gobbos an extreme example of that. WFB main difference of most other systems is the sheer size of the armies, you lose that and there is not much more that makes WFB visually unique... maybe the superhumans will change that.

The whole point of a move to skirmish would be to reduce model count and therefore player buy-in cost. So yes; obviously you wouldn't have mass hordes of goblins or skaven, they're the reason for this drastic change.

**jojo_monkey_boy**

Does GW not realise that it's ruining its own game(s)?

Warhammer 8th edition requires huge numbers of models to play at a standard points limit. Simultaneous to this change, GW has been cutting the sizes of their plastic kits. Further to that, with End times, we've seen the release of a series of 80-130 dollar kits. I don't play 40k, but I'm aware of the cost of all the new fliers, plus the promotion of power-creep dataslates that require large numbers of models.

As someone who is still in the hobby at what might be best described as a casual level, I have to ask, who is buying this stuff other than adults with tons of disposable income?

Even accounting for inflation, the income I earned working while in high school 15 years ago would not have supported the kind of knee jerk buying GW has moved towards.

When I started playing in 5th edition, WFB had a very large following where I live. Over the years, with the creep in editions and prices, that base has all but disappeared. Moving to a defensible IP and killing existing armies won't change anything. Cutting the cost of play might, but not if you're turning away your existing players.

**RiTides**

Warhams-77 wrote:
Harry

Chaos is as GW as .... square bases for fantasy Also ... they look set to win!

This seems to imply Harry thinks square bases are staying (along with chaos).

I think this is right. GW intentionally makes their games incompatible (scale for LOTR, bases for fantasy). There's no way they'll decide to let daemon players use their models in both systems by standardizing bases. I think the round base thing is a complete hoax, and the rumor mongers parroting it are going to be caught in a lie.

**warboss**

jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Does GW not realise that it's ruining its own game(s)?

The head of the company publicly boasted last year in the yearly report to investors that they don't ask their customers what they want. IF they're ruining the game, they probably don't realize it.

**Sheck2**

Malika2 wrote:
Hmm, why not just bring back Mordheim?

Because Mordheim does not scale. I think 9th will be based on their most popular and commercially successful ruleset that scales from 6 vs. 6 to 1000 vs. 1000. LotR + WotR.

They need something that is flexible enough to take on games like Mantic's Dwarf's Hold that offer a RPG light miniature based story driven game in a box AND scale up to mass-battles. PLUS allow campaign / scenario based add-ons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NAVARRO wrote:
I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases. A smart move would be that the rules can accommodate both types and not just one...

I suspect that is exactly what will happen. There are plenty of games that do NOT specify base sizes and you see players using both. What I think will happen is - GW will ONLY offer certain types of bases with their models. Those will be round and in 'unique' sizes like 32mm. People will assume that is the 'standard' and argue when it's not. Yet, it's not a big deal in others system. Frequently, historical mass-battle systems do not specify base sizes, but minimum and maximum frontages letting the player do whatever they want inside those parameters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:

The problems with Fantasy are GW's fault, and their solution will simply push more people to KoW.

9th is not for previous or current WFB (mass-battle) players or for those who play KoW. It's for all of the people who stopped playing LotR, for the people who are playing Dwarf's Hold / Zombicide / Sedition War's / etc., for people who dislike the WMH fluff but want a game like that, and for people who play Pathfinders and miniature based dungeon crawlers. The ex-LotR players are probably triple the WFB players...and adding in the other groups is one big market.

GW does not want KoW players as they would expect less-expensive products in mass sets. That is not where GW thinks the money is nor are they able to effectively compete there.

**Sigvatr**

Paradigm wrote:

And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.

While I agree with this point (LotR has a superb ruleset!), keep in mind that those were written by old GW. Ever since GW's change, their rules have gotten increasingly lackluster and progressibly worse, recently culminating in 40k 7th.