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 Redbeard wrote:
Right right, because 220 pages of butthurt isn't irrational in any way.

The campaign wasn't even done until page 112.

Shhhh, shh. He's trying to feel superior. Don't be so mean. He needs this.

Basically the argument boils down to this:

Redbeard does not think it is reasonable for backers to expect that they won't be lied to or willfully mislead. Redbeard doesn't even care to find out if backers have been lied to, it isn't worth his time. Redbeard is content with very long delays as long as the end product is good, and he believes the end product will be good. Redbeard wishes this thread were nothing but news, basically another place to read the project updates.

Wehrkind, Ouze, Mathieu, BrookM and others do not think it is reasonable for project creators (no matter how small) to lie to or willfully mislead their backers, and they are not content with delays that at the moment appear to be quickly approaching interminable since Raging Heroes has had a year to work on a project that was 80% done at the get go, and three miniatures to show for it. Wehrkind, Ouze, Mathieu, BrookM and others have been using this thread as a sort of digital pub in which adults (? ) get together and grouse about a particularly delicious problem they share.

Actually, to be fair, I don't share the problem. I am just enjoying the thread, and commenting on things here and there.

i kinda agree with Rebeard.....kickstarters aren't stores with awesome discounts. kickstarters are....well, kickstarters. Technically....according to Kickstarter....the project doesn't even have to deliver once its been funded.

On the other hand....most of this forum isn't insane people screaming, it is what forum usually are...a buncha people bitching about a subject with occasionally useful information peppered in.

As a chaos player I live and die in forums like that

Speaking of which, is everyone using theirs as IG or is anyone using these for anything else. the IE on bike is gonna be a chaos bike lord for me once she gets MOOAR SPIKES. IE troops might get used as chaos troops too.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Given that we just had this pointless discussion, is there a particular reason you are belaboring people in this matter again?

Yes. Because I'm subscribed to this thread so that I can get useful information and feedback. And every time the New Posts thing comes up in my subscribed threads list, all I see is people whinging about how some expectation they had isn't being met. This is not useful information. It has gotten annoying. ...

You'll note, by the way, that there were some specific questions I had for you in that last post. I remain genuinely curious for the basis of certain statements you have made.

To be honest, the one you linked back to was A) a huge wall of text that I had a hard time discerning a question in (I don't see a single question mark there), and B) contained all sorts of references to "under the law" and "legally speaking", which, as I'm neither a lawyer, nor a lawyer specializing in international trade, I can't speak to. ...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but while it certainly can be annoying to find nothing but kvelling, it's then a bit rich to treat a post that at least attempts to lay out a more substantive issue with TL: DR. Also, "a huge wall of text", really? Really? You do realize my "wall of text" is a direct response to your post... which is exactly the same length (no joke, my post is precisely one(1) word longer according to my word counter).

I'll mea culpa a lack of a "?", although in fairness to myself a) I do include the phrase "I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data", and b) I didn't anticipate there would be so much skimming needed.

In all seriousness, I get how annoying it can be that there is no real info, but that's not our fault. It's not like there is some conspiracy to only talk about the substantive issue of RH flirting with fraud and/or anticipatory repudiation: the radio silence from RH is... well, from RH.

It's not like people aren't asking the important (some would say, legally significant) questions: it's just that RH refuses to answer the important questions.

Well, to clarify, I'm not too actually upset about the delays personally. I'm sort of displeased that they seem to have clearly lied about how much of the project was done before launch - the only possible conclusion in the absence of an explanation for the 80% comment to where we are now - and am willing to empathize with those who ARE unhappy, but persionally, eh.

I'm like literally the worst person with a right to complain about Kickstarter delays, and there was ample, ample warning from previous Raging Heroes customers in this very thread detailing how it would likely go down - very delayed, but ultimately great miniatures. I was willing to live with that deal so I pledged.

Absolutely,

I knew this would be a trainwreck timeline wise,

because I've pledged for a bunch of KS projects and most are late, very late (or relic knights),

because Raging Heroes had clearly not been the fastest at even getting the KS up and running underestimating how long it would take by miles (and because their non KS performance had also been pretty slow in the past).

However it was also clear that when the minis did show up they would be very nice indeed (which is what I was interested in)

what the thread celebrates (or berates depending on your point of view) is how stereotypically Gallic and Artistic the way Raging Heroes have gone about the process of designing the minis and even the pledge manager

I am a bit miffed that they didn't squeeze out an update yesterday, they could've gone with the good old clip show variant where they recap a year of bold statements followed by long periods of silence.

Though knowing these guys, they made one, scrapped it, then remade it a dozen times over trying to capture the essence of this campaign.

I take it that the pledge manager still hasn't been updated with the promised images either, aye?

Nope. Still waiting to the last minute hoping for either more renders (or more money).

This is the latest I've seen regarding the extra images, this is from around midday yesterday.

Visitor: Second question, any update on the extra trooper images?
Harry the Hippo: Hmm the art team is working on it
Harry the Hippo: To put more renders on the PM
Visitor: fair enough
Harry the Hippo: But we do not know exactly when we will be able to do it..
Visitor: hopefully before the PM closes?
Harry the Hippo: We hope so
Harry the Hippo: We are doing our best because we know it is important for you to see what it looks like in real before making your selection

The art team is working on it?

*insert sound of raspberry here*

Gallahad wrote:Basically the argument boils down to this:

Redbeard does not think it is reasonable for backers to expect that they won't be lied to or willfully mislead. Redbeard doesn't even care to find out if backers have been lied to, it isn't worth his time. Redbeard is content with very long delays as long as the end product is good, and he believes the end product will be good. Redbeard wishes this thread were nothing but news, basically another place to read the project updates.

Not exactly. It's reasonable to be upset about this. It's reasonable to post about being upset once or twice. But, come on people, we're going ona year. By now, you should understand how the process works. Do we need several pages of whining with every status update, going on about what was revised from a prior update or rehashing old hurts? They've established a pattern, it's foolish to expect anything different.

Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but while it certainly can be annoying to find nothing but kvelling, it's then a bit rich to treat a post that at least attempts to lay out a more substantive issue with TL: DR. Also, "a huge wall of text", really? Really? You do realize my "wall of text" is a direct response to your post... which is exactly the same length (no joke, my post is precisely one(1) word longer according to my word counter).

You're taking this very seriously. A word counter?? The internets must be very important.

I'll mea culpa a lack of a "?", although in fairness to myself a) I do include the phrase "I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data", and b) I didn't anticipate there would be so much skimming needed.

In all seriousness, I get how annoying it can be that there is no real info, but that's not our fault. It's not like there is some conspiracy to only talk about the substantive issue of RH flirting with fraud and/or anticipatory repudiation: the radio silence from RH is... well, from RH.

It's not like people aren't asking the important (some would say, legally significant) questions: it's just that RH refuses to answer the important questions.

I'm still not seeing a question.

Talked about with the live chat.

No new renders because they are working very hard on all the miniatures..

he couldn't show me anything new since the last update 3.5 weeks ago.

 Redbeard wrote:

I'm still not seeing a question.

For your convenience:

Buzzsaw wrote:"Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive." I'm curious what your basis for this is. I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data. Certainly the negative is true: if the minis end up bad, then RH might as well fold up shop as they will have functionally nothing going for them at that point. Alternatively, I can think of campaigns where good communications between backers and creators allowed a company to weather a non-ideal fulfillment.

Similarly I can think of campaigns that delivered good product after developing a tempestuous relationship with their backers, and... well, let's just say these companies wouldn't mind a do-over.

Emphasis mine, but therein would be the question.

Ah, fair enough.

My basis for this is watching how gamers behave over the last thirty years. As a group, we're willing to take an enormous amount of abuse from the companies that produce the things that we love, and forgive (if not forget) as soon as they make the next cool thing. Watch Dakka and all the posts about GWs behaviour. I see the same posters (and even myself) who dislike the direction that they take, who dislike the never-ending price increases, the blatant money-grabs, and lackluster approach to game design, yet when a new edition is released, we all buy it, and as soon as the next cool miniature comes out, we're all buying them. For all the complaints about how GW's current direction seems to be about forcing people to buy the big riptides and wraithknights, we're sure happy to buy those riptides and wraithknights because damn it, they're cool.

But it's not just GW. I've watched how M:tG suffered from lackluster sets circa 1995 (Fallen Empires, Homelands), yet were forgiven. I've seen how TSR was scraping the bottom of the barrel with things like spelljammer, and came back, and how they basically ruined D&D more recently, with 3rd parties using their own system to compete with them, only to pull them back with later releases.

As long as the RH final product is cool, that's all that will matter for the vast majority of their backers. If these models turn out well, I have no doubt that a subsequent kickstarter will also do well. If these models end up sub-par, I would expect a second project by them to fail. I really don't think that these process hiccups will affect their long-term success. I could be proven wrong about that, but I don't think that's what will happen.

In positive news. I have located a place to live. I have an address for which my delicious plastic crack might be shipped.

Congrats! By the time you're ready to move to a new place you'll have those minis!

Okay, so I went back to try and find these outright lies they told us. I'll admit, I mostly skimmed through the old updates, but this one stood out:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/530235 wrote:
I think the best way to answer that is to share a conversation we had on Facebook a couple of days ago:

Question: “Dunno if this has been answered - You say you will email people once the KS is over asking for what models they want to spend their pledge on - will we get to see all the models in 3d sculpt/3d print or even in resin/metal cast BEFORE choosing?
I ask because with several of the concepts its hard to visualize the end product.”

Asharah Raging: “Well, production will happen over several months, so it is unlikely that all the models will be available to be shown in 3D or cast before the survey is sent...”

Question: “So we will have to spend our pledge based on the concept sketches for some of the characters/troops/mechs etc? Just asking because I know I, personally, am on the fence about several heroines and the mecha until I see how they look in 3D. After the unveil of the Kurg heavy troops, too, there was a lot of mixed opinion on the transition from concept to sculpt. People will be pretty hacked off if they spend their pledge on a concept then the print is subtly different to the point they don't like it”

Asharah Raging: “I'm not sure what to tell you. Compared to most other companies, our sculpts are very very very close to the concepts. But there will always be subtle changes to make sure that the models are castable and not too fragile. And please remember that we showed the models of the Troops BEFORE THEY WERE FINISHED. We will make sure NEVER to do that again. We did that mainly because of scale issues on which we wanted people's feedback. This means that these renders were shown mostly to help us get a better feel for what the backers were looking for in terms of proportions and scale, and some details were clearly stated to be unfinished. We were VERY clear about that, but nevertheless, many people did not bother to read the comments, drew many mistaken conclusions about these images, and shared them with everyone.

To be able to produce such a large quantity of sculpt at the same time, we have a very specific workflow.
One of its particularities is that we do not develop each sculpt individually and one after the other.
Instead, we work on large sections of the product range all at once.
So, when we write that “80% of the sculpting process is done”, it means precisely that: 80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done.
It does not mean that 80% of the sculpts are done. One person put it this way: "100% of the minis are 80% ready”, and that's a good way to summarise it.

As we already explained in this update on 'One-Shot Blondie, from concept to 3D print', we revise a sculpt MANY times before we send it to print. This is what ENSURES the quality of the Raging Heroes sculpts.

That update was from before the campaign ended, meaning that anyone who was uncomfortable with either of those aspects of their campaign had plenty of time to decide not to back the project.

If I'm missing something else, let me know. Otherwise, the whole "they lied to us" seems to not only have been addressed, but addressed with time for you to back out. If you stayed in at that point, I'd say that is pretty indicative that you were okay with that update.

By the time this ships out you'll have a place to live, space to put and paint them AND a new gf/child/thing in your life that will keep you from painting them

 BrookM wrote:
Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.

See, that's where you're wrong. A chain of apologists keep saying so. If this upsets you, then perhaps kickstarters are not for you. Because it's your fault for being a twitter-weaned instant gratification child who expects people who take your money in exchange for good not to lie to you on a regular basis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.

Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.

I gotta get me a [Mod] badge so I can troll people without repercussion.

Yeah, funny 'bout that.

I guess it's ok though. Because Kickstarter.

 rayphoton wrote:
By the time this ships out you'll have a place to live, space to put and paint them AND a new gf/child/thing in your life that will keep you from painting them

Gods I hope not, I'm only moving in two months and I'm allergic to children.

 Azazelx wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.

See, that's where you're wrong. A chain of apologists keep saying so. If this upsets you, then perhaps kickstarters are not for you. Because it's your fault for being a twitter-weaned instant gratification child who expects people who take your money in exchange for good not to lie to you on a regular basis.

I suppose so.



I wonder, can I still join the smug witches?

 Azazelx wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
...

I gotta get me a [Mod] badge so I can troll people without repercussion.

Yeah, funny 'bout that.

I guess it's ok though. Because Kickstarter.

Right, it's all a conspiracy. You'll note, I'm not a forum mod, I only have any impact at all in the article system, and it doesn't give me any preferential treatment in the forums. If you think I've violated forum rules, please, feel free to report me or my posts. I don't think I've violated any rules, so it probably won't go anywhere. There's no reason to spread falsehoods about the mod staff though, or imply that I'm only able to post because I'm a mod.

 Redbeard wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but while it certainly can be annoying to find nothing but kvelling, it's then a bit rich to treat a post that at least attempts to lay out a more substantive issue with TL: DR. Also, "a huge wall of text", really? Really? You do realize my "wall of text" is a direct response to your post... which is exactly the same length (no joke, my post is precisely one(1) word longer according to my word counter).

You're taking this very seriously. A word counter?? The internets must be very important.

Bluntly, you seem to just be trolling now. Even given your amazingly obtuse posts in this thread, I don't for a moment believe you are so inept that the (literally) five clicks needed to use the word count function represents an achievement.

How is this mean to work, by the by? You assert "your post is too long to read,", I reply "it's the same length as your post," and you rejoin with "U mad bro?!". What possible constructive conversation flows from all this?

But perhaps I am mistaken. After all, this post seems an exercise in point-missing;

 Redbeard wrote:
Okay, so I went back to try and find these outright lies they told us. I'll admit, I mostly skimmed through the old updates, but this one stood out:

Spoiler:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/530235 wrote:
I think the best way to answer that is to share a conversation we had on Facebook a couple of days ago:

Question: “Dunno if this has been answered - You say you will email people once the KS is over asking for what models they want to spend their pledge on - will we get to see all the models in 3d sculpt/3d print or even in resin/metal cast BEFORE choosing?
I ask because with several of the concepts its hard to visualize the end product.”

Asharah Raging: “Well, production will happen over several months, so it is unlikely that all the models will be available to be shown in 3D or cast before the survey is sent...”

Question: “So we will have to spend our pledge based on the concept sketches for some of the characters/troops/mechs etc? Just asking because I know I, personally, am on the fence about several heroines and the mecha until I see how they look in 3D. After the unveil of the Kurg heavy troops, too, there was a lot of mixed opinion on the transition from concept to sculpt. People will be pretty hacked off if they spend their pledge on a concept then the print is subtly different to the point they don't like it”

Asharah Raging: “I'm not sure what to tell you. Compared to most other companies, our sculpts are very very very close to the concepts. But there will always be subtle changes to make sure that the models are castable and not too fragile. And please remember that we showed the models of the Troops BEFORE THEY WERE FINISHED. We will make sure NEVER to do that again. We did that mainly because of scale issues on which we wanted people's feedback. This means that these renders were shown mostly to help us get a better feel for what the backers were looking for in terms of proportions and scale, and some details were clearly stated to be unfinished. We were VERY clear about that, but nevertheless, many people did not bother to read the comments, drew many mistaken conclusions about these images, and shared them with everyone.

To be able to produce such a large quantity of sculpt at the same time, we have a very specific workflow.
One of its particularities is that we do not develop each sculpt individually and one after the other.
Instead, we work on large sections of the product range all at once.
So, when we write that “80% of the sculpting process is done”, it means precisely that: 80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done.
It does not mean that 80% of the sculpts are done. One person put it this way: "100% of the minis are 80% ready”, and that's a good way to summarise it.

As we already explained in this update on 'One-Shot Blondie, from concept to 3D print', we revise a sculpt MANY times before we send it to print. This is what ENSURES the quality of the Raging Heroes sculpts.

That update was from before the campaign ended, meaning that anyone who was uncomfortable with either of those aspects of their campaign had plenty of time to decide not to back the project.

If I'm missing something else, let me know. Otherwise, the whole "they lied to us" seems to not only have been addressed, but addressed with time for you to back out. If you stayed in at that point, I'd say that is pretty indicative that you were okay with that update.

Hey, guess what? I specifically addressed that post! Not only did I address this, and include the explicit promise (it's the thing labeled "explicit promise"). Not only that, but the post is a response to you (Redbeard), and a follow-up to a post that addressed the issue at some length.

I can understand not being aware of every post in a thread, but Red, you seem blissfully unaware of a conversation we had less then two weeks ago on this specific topic (this post is from May 26).

You say "If I'm missing something else, let me know." Okay, start with this post, and bare in mind this distinction: there is a difference between the Survey (which went out 9/24/2013), and the Pledge Manager. The way you edited your re-post of update #57 it is not immediately obvious that you understand the difference (the points addressing the pledge manager and incremental spending were omitted by you).

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Bluntly, you seem to just be trolling now. Even given your amazingly obtuse posts in this thread, I don't for a moment believe you are so inept that the (literally) five clicks needed to use the word count function represents an achievement.

I was not aware there was a word count function five clicks away. I've never found it necessary to count words, so I've never gone looking for such a feature. Is that part of dakka, or part of the generic text-entry form (and in what browser, if that's the case)? I had no idea. I still think it's a bit pedantic to go worrying about it, but I honestly wasn't aware it was easily available.

But perhaps I am mistaken. After all, this post seems an exercise in point-missing;

Probably. I'm at work. I'm a software engineer, which means that I get periodic times when I wait for code to compile, and look away at the browser or something. I really don't go back and re-read every old post (is that normal behaviour) when writing a new one. At least half the time, I'm only half paying attention to this anyway, it's probably a bad habit, but oh well, it's what I do.

...

Hey, guess what? I specifically addressed that post! Not only did I address this, and include the explicit promise (it's the thing labeled "explicit promise"). Not only that, but the post is a response to you (Redbeard), and a follow-up to a post that addressed the issue at some length.

Uh, okay. So you found one clip of text buried in a comment section and gave it the same level of credibility that an official update would have? There are very nearly 10,000 comments on their comment board, I have no interest in reading most of them even once, and even less in going back and poring over them for information. In my opinion, if it's not in an actual update, it doesn't count. The updates have the relevant info that we need to pay attention to, and the comments have such a high noise-to-signal ratio that they're worthless. I wouldn't trust anything written solely in the comments.

I can understand not being aware of every post in a thread, but Red, you seem blissfully unaware of a conversation we had less then two weeks ago on this specific topic

Yup, it's how I keep my cool A trick I picked up a long time ago is not committing things to long-term memory that aren't worth remembering in the long-term.

You say "If I'm missing something else, let me know." Okay, start with this post, and bare in mind this distinction: there is a difference between the Survey (which went out 9/24/2013), and the Pledge Manager. The way you edited your re-post of update #57 it is not immediately obvious that you understand the difference (the points addressing the pledge manager and incremental spending were omitted by you).

You know, I didn't realize there was a difference between a pledge manager and a survey - again, I really don't pay that close attention. I'm sorry if you wanted a more detailed debate over the fine points of the wording of things, but that's really not my thing. I see, re-reading this (again) that they did say that it was a reasonable request and they'd try to make it possible. Again, I think this comes down to the way kickstarter works. Most kickstarters will say they're going to try things that seem reasonable, but later will realize that the extra time or cost associated with doing them makes such things unfeasible. In fact, the word try or trying is used several times in the quotes on the dakka post you linked to. Trying does not always mean success, nor even that success is possible.

You're looking at these comments and transcripts from a facebook chat as contractually binding agreements. Are you actually a lawyer? I know when I read such things, I see them as the company stating a goal. And, as an engineer, I realize that not all goals are met, and that the design process for anything involves trade-offs. One saying in my industry is that there are three variables, and you can control two of them. These are 'features', 'deadlines' and 'quality'. (As an aside, read 'The Mythical Man Month' for why you can't just throw more money at design projects and expect better or faster results). For this project, the features would be the number of models, something they are locked into by the terms of the kickstarter rewards. That means they have the ability to additionally control either the quality of the product, or the time it will take to get there. They appear, wisely, to have chosen quality - but that means that the schedule has to remain fluid.

Guys, wth are you arguing about now?

 Redbeard wrote:

I really don't go back and re-read every old post (is that normal behaviour) when writing a new one. At least half the time, I'm only half paying attention to this anyway, it's probably a bad habit, but oh well, it's what I do.

...

Yup, it's how I keep my cool A trick I picked up a long time ago is not committing things to long-term memory that aren't worth remembering in the long-term.

...
You know, I didn't realize there was a difference between a pledge manager and a survey -again, I really don't pay that close attention. I'm sorry if you wanted a more detailed debate over the fine points of the wording of things, but that's really not my thing.

(emphasis mine)

For future reference Redbeard, this is why you get people so angry with you. You don't follow the conversation even when the conversation is comprised of people directly addressing your posts, but continue to comment and criticize people's statements and positions despite this. People attempt to engage with you and you blithely ignore their points and continue to deride them instead of engaging with what they say. At that point you are no longer engaging in conversation but shouting random statements irrelevant to the discussion despite the vaguely relevant shape of the post. This behavior is what one expects from a fairly poorly designed chat bot or rampant partisan who does not wish to discuss ideas but rather put down any who disagree with them simply because they disagree.

I can definitely understand not putting a lot of time into studying the intricacies of a subject, especially one as corner case as a KS for little toy soldier women. However, one must recognize that when some people have put in a lot of time and study in the subject and are discussing the finer points simply popping in and saying "Lol you are all being stupid!" is not going to be well received, nor should it be. Using purposeful ignorance of a topic as an excuse for saying people's positions on a topic are wrong and irrational is not really helping.

I JUST WANT MY MINIATURES

First, thanks Wehr for both beating me to the post, and phrasing things with a great deal of poise and charity.

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

I really don't go back and re-read every old post (is that normal behaviour) when writing a new one. At least half the time, I'm only half paying attention to this anyway, it's probably a bad habit, but oh well, it's what I do.

...

Yup, it's how I keep my cool A trick I picked up a long time ago is not committing things to long-term memory that aren't worth remembering in the long-term.

...
You know, I didn't realize there was a difference between a pledge manager and a survey -again, I really don't pay that close attention. I'm sorry if you wanted a more detailed debate over the fine points of the wording of things, but that's really not my thing.

(emphasis mine)

For future reference Redbeard, this is why you get people so angry with you. You don't follow the conversation even when the conversation is comprised of people directly addressing your posts, but continue to comment and criticize people's statements and positions despite this. People attempt to engage with you and you blithely ignore their points and continue to deride them instead of engaging with what they say. At that point you are no longer engaging in conversation but shouting random statements irrelevant to the discussion despite the vaguely relevant shape of the post. This behavior is what one expects from a fairly poorly designed chat bot or rampant partisan who does not wish to discuss ideas but rather put down any who disagree with them simply because they disagree.

I can definitely understand not putting a lot of time into studying the intricacies of a subject, especially one as corner case as a KS for little toy soldier women. However, one must recognize that when some people have put in a lot of time and study in the subject and are discussing the finer points simply popping in and saying "Lol you are all being stupid!" is not going to be well received, nor should it be. Using purposeful ignorance of a topic as an excuse for saying people's positions on a topic are wrong and irrational is not really helping.

Second, I suppose thanks are due to Redbeard: it's rather refreshing to have someone be open about how they aren't paying attention and aren't going to start paying attention. As Wehr says, it's completely understandable not wanting to put in the time to understand things, and I appreciate the heads-up that I shouldn't be wasting my time.