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2014/05/26 02:59:35
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Bottom line, they're not acting any different than any other company on kickstarter that I've been involved with, and I've backed no small number. Have some faith and some patience and you'll end up with nice models. This isn't worth giving yourself an ulcer over.
You must have only backed gakky kickstarters in that case, because RH are acting far more poorly, arrogantly and antagonistically towards their backers that most of the ones I've backed. Faith? I know the models will most likely be lovely in the end. Patience? This thread is almost entirely a laugh for me. I'm not raging, I'm laughing.
On the other hand, their current shenanigans with the pledge manager, concept art and renders isn't what I'd call acceptable, even for them. Ulcer? gak, this thread is calm and pretty much good-natured. If you want to take their endless broken promises and bs with a smile and ask for more please, Sir (Monsieur?) then I'm absolutely fine with that, but please don't tell me to be shut up, stop commenting and be happy to eat up their gak with a spoon, or that none of our concerns are relevant because you're happy with the status quo - because that's actually when I become less calm.
The main reason people pile on them is because how they keep making these comments, these grand proclamations, these sweeping statements and then fail to deliver on them by weeks or months, completely alter the deal by ignoring previous promises or outright lie to us. But I suppose that’s okay, because the minis will be worth it? Or is it okay because it is run as a Kickstarter, I suppose those have an automatic built-in excuse for gak like this eh?
This here right now is them forcing people to choose and get it over with. I'm pretty sure that a lot of backers who pledged a great deal of money and still don't know what to pledge because of lacking renders / actual models love to hear from the Raging stalwarts that they shouldn't sweat it, that they should just shut up and pick from the concept art because the minis will be worth it yo!
Flying feth, I went with general Wolfenstein, a mini that has as of yet nothing but concept art, it feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with my pledge here.
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2014/05/26 07:07:21
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Sure, they are a small fledgling comapny, sure it's Kickstarter..
But at the end of the day, they're doing business here. They are selling, or rather want to sell, a product. It's not just a bunch of guys sculpting figures for fun to show and give away to their friends, it's a company that seeks to sell something.
Yeah, I get it, a lot of companies on Kickstarter are at fault for delays and poor project planning - but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. What happens after this is done? They got a bunch of money and cannot handle things, what happens later, when the bunch of money is gone, but you still have to make and sell the products? Will they just lay down on their bed of laurels and sell only the miniatures they already have?
A poor company is a poor company. People are criticizing them in hopes they will listen and become better, but they don't seem to want to. In the end the market itself will crush them. They won't be gone, just.. insignificant. After this KS they could have 3000 people running around the internet/their friends promoting the awesome company with awesome sculpts and how everyone should check them out. Now I fear this will not be the case (Not saying for all 3k people, but a lot of them) and RH will keep being an insignificant small company, that a lot of people never heard about.
What happens if due to the delays they run out of money before they ship the Kickstarter rewards? 700k $ is a lot, but they have a lot of staff to pay, materials to pay, molds, most likely a studio, etc...
Not to mention that THEY came up with all the deadlines, THEY came up with all the rules and THEY keep breaking them repeatedly, while offending (check out that famous twitter-weened comment) people who question them about it.
I'm far from being angry in any way. I'm just.. disappointed. I got perhaps too overexcited at the beginning of this KS and they promised so many great things...
I mean, we still don't even know anything about the scale - they were considering different things at start and we still have no clue what they decided..
42nd Cadian Infantry Regiment - 4605 pts.
Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company - 7033 pts.
Elements of Dark Angels 2nd and 3rd Companies - 1155 pts.
The Last Hatred Kabal - 3005 pts.
Eldar Slaves - 630 pts.
2014/05/26 07:08:37
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
I think the reason people are pounding on RH is not because they're worse than normal, but because they were so successful, and exceeded their expectations by so much, that it's hard for people to remember that prior to this kickstarter, this was a tiny little operation that had all of 20 sculpts to their name. People think, wow, they made so much money, they must be a big operation. And I can't really see it being justified to hire a full time customer support person. Considering all the other things they need to be doing, responding to every question on a comment thread seems like an unrealistic goal. If those Dreamforge guys manage it, good for them, but it's not a standard I expect any kickstarter to live up to.
I call bullgak on the idea that they exceeded their expectations as much as that. Yes, they made a large amount of money compared to what they were asking for, but the original funding goal was very low for the number of figures that it made available. $12,000 for 43 sculpts doesn't quite seem right (~$280 per sculpt without taking of the KS percentage) especially when they jumped to $5-$10k for strech goals after the elastic goals when they were funded. They artificially lowered the funding target, whether they admit it or not, but whether that was to make the percentage pledged look better or so they could use it as an excuse for delays is something that we'll likely never know. But the very notion that they ridiculously exceeded their expectations is flawed, I'd say they were 10% past their expectations when the project ended. (17 uber stretch sculpts compared to the 150+ they had planned at the start)
BrookM wrote: Flying feth, I went with general Wolfenstein, a mini that has as of yet nothing but concept art, it feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with my pledge here.
Why? The sculpts turn out to look pretty much like the concept art, and have in almost every instance with little variation so far. Why should that model be any different?
Jimsolo wrote:
Offtopic the second: Redbeard, do you own the amigurumi beast in your avatar? And would you ever put it into a Fuzzy Heroes game?
I do, my wife loves to make amigurumi's and she made it for me (and a papa nurgle dice bag that eats and regurgitates the dice). I haven't seen fuzzy heroes in about a decade, are they still going?
Heck yes! They haven't put out anything new in forever, but you can still buy all the rules, and I'm still running it. KISS army forever!
BrookM wrote: Flying feth, I went with general Wolfenstein, a mini that has as of yet nothing but concept art, it feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with my pledge here.
Why? The sculpts turn out to look pretty much like the concept art, and have in almost every instance with little variation so far. Why should that model be any different?
Wolfenstein has a LOT of fiddly details, the kind that are hard to actually put into practice. Models with delicate details (like Shashenka) are the ones that seem to be most vulnerable to being shifted. I don't blame people for wanting renders for Wolfenstein, Nepharya, or the Werewolves. If I were getting any of them, I sure would.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/26 14:00:24
I just confirmed over live chat (yes, they even spoke to *me*) that they aren't sending anything out before June 16th. Even those with personal wave shipping.
I have therefore freed the mailman from the basement.
This leads me to believe that they do indeed have the stock on hand. They might also begin packing before, but no shipping per se.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2014/05/26 14:30:34
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Buzzsaw wrote:
The problem is that in almost every case of making a promise or representation, RH has failed to live up to its own obligations. Moreover, RH has consistently and adamantly resisted the constant calls for the one thing that would eliminate their problems: better communication.
I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with you. I'm not on the dreamforge one, so I can't speak to that. But every kickstarter and indiegogo project I've backed has had people asking for more updates. And most of them don't communicate near as well as they should, but again, I think it's part of the nature of the beast.
Kickstarter is a venue for idea people to get the word out and get some financial support without the rigorous project planning that would be required by a traditional bank loan. It does not surprise me, in the least, that idea people doing kickstarter projects don't have the sort of polished customer service experience that modern consumers come to expect from full-fledged businesses. The ones that do communicate well (as you seem to indicate Dreamforge does) are the exception, not the rule.
I have 12 outstanding kickstarter backings (is that the right term?). Of those 12, I would only say two of them communicate well, and they're both projects from more experienced developers - Tablescapes, from Secret Weapon, and Creature Caster, from Jeremy who ran Ultraforge. They stand out, in my mind, because of how well they do communicate their issues. The others, they're all essentially at the same level as each other, and Raging Heroes is notably better than a couple others.
I think the reason people are pounding on RH is not because they're worse than normal, but because they were so successful, and exceeded their expectations by so much, that it's hard for people to remember that prior to this kickstarter, this was a tiny little operation that had all of 20 sculpts to their name. People think, wow, they made so much money, they must be a big operation. And I can't really see it being justified to hire a full time customer support person. Considering all the other things they need to be doing, responding to every question on a comment thread seems like an unrealistic goal. If those Dreamforge guys manage it, good for them, but it's not a standard I expect any kickstarter to live up to.
I'll be blunt here, I don't just think you're wrong, but demonstrably wrong. To that end I'll note that you don't actually address any of the specifics of my points about what makes the behavior of RH different from the norm. So let's be very specific with what I would call the most recent important issue, finalized sculpts.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
Note that they do not saw that pledges will be on Renders, but finalised[sic] sculpts: as elaborated on in Update 57, finalised doesn't mean the initial "80%" renders, it means initial renders have been shown, feedback taken, implemented and no further changes are forthcoming.
Moreover, note that this statement of behavior was during the campaign, not after, and is a material representation made to address a specific concern. To be blunt again, people who are upset about pledging without sculpts are upset based on two things: 1) they are now pledging on concept art, and 2) Raging Heroes specifically told these people that what has happened would not happen.
I must be a purely evil person... but I'm kind of enjoying the backlash in the KS comment section.
This thread lost all sense of positivity months ago, but the comments were, most of the time, quite positive. Not anymore!
2014/05/26 15:24:25
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
I am so, so glad that I pulled my pledge on the final day. If I were one of you guys, I'd be considering a trip to france to have the satisfaction of shouting insults at them. As it is, I blew the money on a crapton of X-Wing stuff...
Buzzsaw wrote:
I'll be blunt here, I don't just think you're wrong, but demonstrably wrong. To that end I'll note that you don't actually address any of the specifics of my points about what makes the behavior of RH different from the norm. So let's be very specific with what I would call the most recent important issue, finalized sculpts.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
Note that they do not saw that pledges will be on Renders, but finalised[sic] sculpts: as elaborated on in Update 57, finalised doesn't mean the initial "80%" renders, it means initial renders have been shown, feedback taken, implemented and no further changes are forthcoming.
Moreover, note that this statement of behavior was during the campaign, not after, and is a material representation made to address a specific concern. To be blunt again, people who are upset about pledging without sculpts are upset based on two things: 1) they are now pledging on concept art, and 2) Raging Heroes specifically told these people that what has happened would not happen.
Yes, I'm aware of that. And, I still believe this originates not from malice, but from inexperience in dealing with customers, as well as conflicting demands.
I think we can all agree that to get models to the quality level that I've seen in their prior work, and in their renders, it takes some time. They go through a few revisions, they probably have a couple of complete restarts in there.
Then, they have two large vocal groups demanding different things.
Group one wants to get their pledge manager so they can put in orders for stuff that will ship sooner. Group two wants to see renders. And, being an inexperienced company, they tried to promise everything to everyone, only to realize later that this wasn't feasible.
You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that. But do you really think this is because they want to piss people off, or do you think that some facet of the original plan (to open up the system, and also to let people wait for renders) ended up proving technically too complex for them? They're sculptors, not webstore designers, and I can totally see how, if faced with a higher cost to have a pledge manager that allowed multiple buys, they backed off of that concept. Yes, they were wrong to have made the promise, and yes, I even understand that people get upset when faced with a broken promise. That doesn't mean that breaking the promise was an unreasonable business decision, and I still think this is par for the kickstarter course.
Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive. And, if they launch another kickstarter for a different set of minis, the thing that people will consider before pledging is were the minis good at the end. If they are, they'll be a success, and people will go for their next stuff, even knowing that they're poor communicators and revise their plans along the way. And if the minis are bad, the timeliness of future kickstarters won't matter.
Kind of proving my point, right? I mean, you have these customers saying "talk to us more", so they try to appease the loud squeaky wheels by hiring a guy, only to realize that the money they're paying him is better spent on other tasks. It's not feasible to hire a full time social media coordinator - there's usually just not that much to say, and realistically, they need to be focusing on fulfillment, not on maintaining hype in a group of people who already spent their money.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to apologize for their mistakes. It's obvious that they're making them. I'm just saying, it's kickstarter - you should expect mistakes. If those mistakes are in what they tell you, I'm okay with that. I'm only going to be upset if the mistakes are in the finished products - but I don't see that happening.
Redbeard wrote: You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that. But do you really think this is because they want to piss people off, or do you think that some facet of the original plan (to open up the system, and also to let people wait for renders) ended up proving technically too complex for them? They're sculptors, not webstore designers, and I can totally see how, if faced with a higher cost to have a pledge manager that allowed multiple buys, they backed off of that concept. Yes, they were wrong to have made the promise, and yes, I even understand that people get upset when faced with a broken promise. That doesn't mean that breaking the promise was an unreasonable business decision, and I still think this is par for the kickstarter course.
If it was just one instance of a broken promise then things wouldn't be so bad. However, there are a number of them over the course of this project, ranging from little things like the time frame for the next update through to fundamentals such as the issues with the pledge manager.
As for keeping it open, you don't need to have any fancy skills to put out an update (such as the one they said we'd have before the pledge manager went live) saying that anyone wanting wave on figures shipping now needs to pledge for them before the 15th of June and anything after that would fall into wave two for shipping purposes. This gives people wanting wave one items as soon as possible (drop ship / wave ship / entire pledge) to get them sorted whilst also allowing people the chance to see renders for later figures before actually spending money on them.
Kind of proving my point, right? I mean, you have these customers saying "talk to us more", so they try to appease the loud squeaky wheels by hiring a guy, only to realize that the money they're paying him is better spent on other tasks. It's not feasible to hire a full time social media coordinator - there's usually just not that much to say, and realistically, they need to be focusing on fulfillment, not on maintaining hype in a group of people who already spent their money.
Well, they thought about it and did hire the guy. However, they didn't actually trust him enough to work on updates for the project. all he seemed to do was post pictures to facebook that we'd already seen. Of course, this was before they had him collating all of the past updates into a word document so they could show how good they were at communicating due to the number of pages they'd written, not taking into account the fact that ~80% of those pages were waffle and already broken promises.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to apologize for their mistakes. It's obvious that they're making them. I'm just saying, it's kickstarter - you should expect mistakes. If those mistakes are in what they tell you, I'm okay with that. I'm only going to be upset if the mistakes are in the finished products - but I don't see that happening.
Buzzsaw wrote:
I'll be blunt here, I don't just think you're wrong, but demonstrably wrong. To that end I'll note that you don't actually address any of the specifics of my points about what makes the behavior of RH different from the norm. So let's be very specific with what I would call the most recent important issue, finalized sculpts.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
Note that they do not saw that pledges will be on Renders, but finalised[sic] sculpts: as elaborated on in Update 57, finalised doesn't mean the initial "80%" renders, it means initial renders have been shown, feedback taken, implemented and no further changes are forthcoming.
Moreover, note that this statement of behavior was during the campaign, not after, and is a material representation made to address a specific concern. To be blunt again, people who are upset about pledging without sculpts are upset based on two things: 1) they are now pledging on concept art, and 2) Raging Heroes specifically told these people that what has happened would not happen.
Yes, I'm aware of that. And, I still believe this originates not from malice, but from inexperience in dealing with customers, as well as conflicting demands.
I think we can all agree that to get models to the quality level that I've seen in their prior work, and in their renders, it takes some time. They go through a few revisions, they probably have a couple of complete restarts in there.
Then, they have two large vocal groups demanding different things.
Group one wants to get their pledge manager so they can put in orders for stuff that will ship sooner. Group two wants to see renders. And, being an inexperienced company, they tried to promise everything to everyone, only to realize later that this wasn't feasible.
You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that. But do you really think this is because they want to piss people off, or do you think that some facet of the original plan (to open up the system, and also to let people wait for renders) ended up proving technically too complex for them? They're sculptors, not webstore designers, and I can totally see how, if faced with a higher cost to have a pledge manager that allowed multiple buys, they backed off of that concept. Yes, they were wrong to have made the promise, and yes, I even understand that people get upset when faced with a broken promise. That doesn't mean that breaking the promise was an unreasonable business decision, and I still think this is par for the kickstarter course.
Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive. And, if they launch another kickstarter for a different set of minis, the thing that people will consider before pledging is were the minis good at the end. If they are, they'll be a success, and people will go for their next stuff, even knowing that they're poor communicators and revise their plans along the way. And if the minis are bad, the timeliness of future kickstarters won't matter.
Kind of proving my point, right? I mean, you have these customers saying "talk to us more", so they try to appease the loud squeaky wheels by hiring a guy, only to realize that the money they're paying him is better spent on other tasks. It's not feasible to hire a full time social media coordinator - there's usually just not that much to say, and realistically, they need to be focusing on fulfillment, not on maintaining hype in a group of people who already spent their money.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to apologize for their mistakes. It's obvious that they're making them. I'm just saying, it's kickstarter - you should expect mistakes. If those mistakes are in what they tell you, I'm okay with that. I'm only going to be upset if the mistakes are in the finished products - but I don't see that happening.
Red, I've got to be honest, I think we're really talking past each other right now. To the degree that looking at my points, I don't even understand how what you are saying is meant to relate to them.
For example, "I still believe this originates not from malice, but from inexperience in dealing with customers, as well as conflicting demands." Okay. Did I say they were acting maliciously? If something I said is liable to that interpretation I disclaim it: I agree with you entirely that Raging Heroes is, first and foremost, utterly incompetent in their communications and business interactions.
Similarly, "You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that." I didn't say they "broke a promise", I said that the statement made was "a material representation made to address a specific concern". This is not puffery, not a legally neutral statement: it is a specific course of action that was promised in order to assuage the fears of some backers and induce them to enter into contract. Unilaterally changing such a term is no more appropriate than changing any other term of a contract. For people that were convinced to pledge based on this assurance, RH forcing them to pledge based on anything but what they promised constitutes material breach of contract. I think there is a strong (but not yet conclusive) argument at the moment that Raging Heroes is about to engage in anticipatory repudiation.
All that is to say: it's a big deal. Moreover, under the law, for such people making demands is not just something they should do, but need to do.
"Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive." I'm curious what your basis for this is. I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data. Certainly the negative is true: if the minis end up bad, then RH might as well fold up shop as they will have functionally nothing going for them at that point. Alternatively, I can think of campaigns where good communications between backers and creators allowed a company to weather a non-ideal fulfillment.
Similarly I can think of campaigns that delivered good product after developing a tempestuous relationship with their backers, and... well, let's just say these companies wouldn't mind a do-over.
At the end of the day, in Raging Heroes we have a company that, we both agree, has displayed a tremendous degree of incompetence. They have displayed a consistent inability to actually follow through on their promises, no matter how big or small. They have displayed a remarkable inability to organize their own efforts and products, nor have they shown any ability to utilize the help that has been offered. At this point, basically all anyone can do is try and get off the ride, or cross their fingers and hope against hope that RH manages to actually produce and distribute their figures before the mass of their own missteps crushes the company.
A bizarre array of focusing mirrors and lenses turning my phrases into even more accurate clones of
Forgot I backed this thing and at least we have a pledge manager now. But, it's funny: I'm being reminded of star citizen every time they push back a deadline or make the scope of the project larger.
I will continue to hope this thing becomes a reality, unlike SC.
42nd Cadian Infantry Regiment - 4605 pts.
Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company - 7033 pts.
Elements of Dark Angels 2nd and 3rd Companies - 1155 pts.
The Last Hatred Kabal - 3005 pts.
Eldar Slaves - 630 pts. 
