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Good evening Dakka, I'm building lists at the moment and wonder if I can take a comms relay on its own without a parent fortification.

Battlescribe says no but the sentence at the debris section makes me question it.


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Crappy screenshot but I'm trying to keep points out.

That is actually interesting.

They do have associated cost and all.

Id ask your local group but id give you the go ahead if we where playing

I was sure that there had been more than one thread on this issue, but I can only find one - warning, gets heated.

Personally, I don't think it's allowable just because the wording at the top is vague. If I wanted to do it, I need a points value, and I can only do that by referencing the Battlements & Battlefield fortification upgrade list.

Also, the Imperial Statuary is in the Debris list, and occurs as a "fortification in it's own right" as part of the Honoured Imperium 'fortification'. I don't think it is implying that each and every item listed can be purchased as it's own fortification.

If it were, I'm quite certain that every tournament army that even had a hint of reserves would have a stand-alone comms relay (or more than one).

Thank you, even though I do want one in a list stepping back those reason seem sound, got the the same response on 40k for grown up with a little of the heat.

I think it's allowable. The rules are quite clear. I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I'm with Quanar on this one. I don't see that line a permission so much as description. Its telling you the list contains 1 or more things that can be taken as a stand alone fortification but that does not mean everything can be taken as a stand alone fortification. For me you need a datasheet. No datasheet no fortification.

 DJGietzen wrote:
I'm with Quanar on this one. I don't see that line a permission so much as description. Its telling you the list contains 1 or more things that can be taken as a stand alone fortification but that does not mean everything can be taken as a stand alone fortification. For me you need a datasheet. No datasheet no fortification.

Still, if they were willingly set up as part of "random terrain" by both opponents, than the need for the Datasheets or inclusion in the army is not necessary nor required.

 Desubot wrote:
That is actually interesting.

They do have associated cost and all.

It has an associated cost only in the entry for upgrades. It has no solo entry.

I would say yes. The text on the section that contains the entry for the Comms relay states you can take them alone as your fortification providing an exception to the rule that they have to be taken as upgrades.

Show me the actual solo entry/datasheet for the comms relay.

You can't.

There isn't one.

It is only an upgrade, as that is the only section in which you will find the actual permission to even take a comms relay to begin with.

Doesn't the very beginning of that section also say that you can take them as fortifications in their own right?

The wording is vague as to whether or not that line means everything can be purchased as fortifications in their own right. For example:
"The following list is of things that can be green or orange"
- Carrots
- Celery
- Oranges
- Broccoli

Things in this list are not both orange and green, but the list is comprised of orange and green things. Similarly, having a list of things that can be purchased as upgrades or fortifications does not necessarily mean they have permission to be both, it is just a list of things that may or may not be upgrades or fortifications.


Personally, I'd allow it if the comms relay was an integral part of a list my opponent wanted to play, but I don't think it is 100% clear RAW.

What an intriguing concept!

All I have to go on is Stronghold Assault rules.

I'm assuming everyone is talking about this passage:

The following list summarises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a
fortification, or as fortifications in their own right.

Weird, wild stuff. I truly never paid attention to the battlefield debris rules, but that seems like a legal rule to gets a comms relay without actually buying a fortification.

Interesting.



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 Jimsolo wrote:
Doesn't the very beginning of that section also say that you can take them as fortifications in their own right?

Yes it does.

This seams very clear cut, you can it is right their in black and white.

So then, without referencing the "BATTLEMENTS & BATTLEFIELD" list, where do you find the point cost to include a Comms Relay by itself?

 Happyjew wrote:
So then, without referencing the "BATTLEMENTS & BATTLEFIELD" list, where do you find the point cost to include a Comms Relay by itself?

You don't need to, since we are told that that is the point list for including a Comms Relay as an upgrade or as a fortification in its own right.

^ We aren't told that for sure though. As I stated earlier, The line is stating that it is a section of things that can be taken as upgrades or fortifications. This doesn't necessarily mean that everything contained in that section may be taken as both. It could equally as likely mean that the list simply contains both things that are fortifications and things that are upgrades. Refer to my earlier comment about how a list of green or orange vegetables does not mean all the listed vegetables are both green and orange.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So then, without referencing the "BATTLEMENTS & BATTLEFIELD" list, where do you find the point cost to include a Comms Relay by itself?

You don't need to, since we are told that that is the point list for including a Comms Relay as an upgrade or as a fortification in its own right.

Battlement & Battlefield upgrades are single pieces of battlefield debris. A list of the relevant descriptions and rules for
battlefield debris can be found opposite. Each fortification can purchase a single Battlement & Battlefield upgrade
from the list below. These are placed either on the fortification’s battlements (if it is a building with battlements) or
anywhere on the tabletop that is wholly within 6"of their fortification.

Please tell me where in the above you have permission to take items from the list without first taking a fortification.

Bojazz wrote:
^ We aren't told that for sure though. As I stated earlier, The line is stating that it is a section of things that can be taken as upgrades or fortifications. This doesn't necessarily mean that everything contained in that section may be taken as both. It could equally as likely mean that the list simply contains both things that are fortifications and things that are upgrades. Refer to my earlier comment about how a list of green or orange vegetables does not mean all the listed vegetables are both green and orange.

I read it, I just didn't agree that the hypothetical situation you're describing is the same as the real situation we are dealing with now.

The language is identical. You have a section describing things that can be A or B. This does not necessarily mean that everything contained in the list is both A and B, nor does it give explicit permission for everything in the list to be both A and B. It merely groups things that are A and things that are B into the same section and describes their rules individually.

Now that I look at it again, I'm not sure your vegetable example IS the same thing. All the sub entries beneath the Battlefield Debris header can be purchased as fortifications OR as upgrades. More than one of your vegetables don't come in green and orange varieties.

The fact that there are vegetables which are not both green and orange in the list is exactly my point. The title of the vegetable list is identical in wording to the battlefield debris wording, yet the list is still valid even though it contains things which are not both green and orange. Likewise, The description of the battlefield debris section could be interpreted to mean the same thing. That it is simply a list of things which can be taken as fortifications, and things that can be taken as upgrades. Not a list of things that may be taken as both.

A list of things that can be A or B does not give permission for everything in that list to be A and B. So long as each thing in the list is either A or B, the title is accurate.

Nothing in the 40k list is A and B. But in each game, each selection, when selected, could be either A or B. Each entry in the vegetable list is always A, or always B. With one exception (carrots) which are traditionally A and B at the same time.

The rule book clearly tells us that each entry in the list can be one thing or the other, not that each entry in the list is always one of these two things, regardless of what you want to take them as.

It does not clearly tell us that at all. It merely states that the section contains things that can be fortifications or upgrades. Not that they have permission to be either. The comms relay, for instance, states that it can be taken as an upgrade, but nowhere is it stated that it can be taken as a fortification. Since it may be taken as an upgrade, it still fits into a section that lists "things that can be fortifications or upgrades" because it has permission to be an upgrade. The title is not necessarily giving permission for everything it contains to be taken as either of the two options. Hence my example with the vegetables.

The rules for broccoli state that it may be green. It has no permission to be orange. It still fits into a list of "things that can be green or orange". The description of the list does not give the broccoli permission to be orange.

Likewise, the rules for a comms relay state that it may be an upgrade. It has no permission to be a fortification on it's own. It still fits into a list of "things that may be upgrades or fortifications on their own". The description of the section does not give the comms relay permission to be a fortification in it's own right.

I think I see how you're interpreting it now. Although I think the vegetable thing was an unnecessary comparison--I think we all knew what the opposing view was (that the listed items are either an upgrade or a fortification, and you don't choose)

Unfortunately, I think the other interpretation is still the correct one.

Yeah, I sometimes get a little "out there" with my comparisons. I should work on that. But yes, as I stated earlier, the line could be interpreted either way. I would let my opponent take a relay if it was an integral part of his list. But I would not agree that it is 100% RAW.

Bojazz wrote:
Yeah, I sometimes get a little "out there" with my comparisons. I should work on that. But yes, as I stated earlier, the line could be interpreted either way. I would let my opponent take a relay if it was an integral part of his list. But I would not agree that it is 100% RAW.

I'd certainly submit to a tournament organizer's ruling either direction without complaint. I'd love to see a poll on this, to see if there is a strong community consensus one way or the other.

So if each thing in the list is a "standalone" fortification, how do I go about taking an Imperial Statuary (on it's own, without the other bits in the Honoured Imperium datasheet)? Or just some Wreckage and Rubble?

This covers it:

 Unholyllama wrote:
Looking over the book in front of me....

My interpretation is that the items listed under the Battlefield Debris section are ALL special rules associated with upgrades or pieces of fortifications.

Ammo Dump, Barricades/Walls, Gun Emplacements, Tanglewire, Tank Traps, and Comms Relays are upgrades (as defined on the previous page under the Obstacles and Battlements & Battlefield upgrade subsections).

The Defense Line, Imperial Statuary, and Wreckage/Rubble are all part of 2 different fortification entries - the Aegis Defense Line and the Honoured Imperium (which consists of an Imperial Statuary and 2 pieces of of Rubble).

So the summary of the Battlefield Debris is accurate in that some elements listed in this section ARE upgrades while others are directly part of a fortification.

It's not saying you can take upgrades as fortification in and of themselves, it's saying some of the things listed in the section are upgrades and some are actual pieces of fortification datasheets found later in the book.