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2014/06/25 21:38:38
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
pretre wrote: Yep and with turbo-boosting you go from:
20/36 hits to 11/36 hits. A bit worse, but still nasty.
Just above half is "a bit" now? Say it for what it is man.
Yep. A bit. Considering how many extra dakkaguns are going to be in the squad now.
Perfect's build was 10 Dakkaguns for the new version vs 5 in the old. So twice as many shots. Guess what that means.
That you have twice as many bikes whose exhaust cloud was nerfed? I mean, if you're going to change the topic from "exhaust cloud nerf" to "warbikes dropped in price", sure, I'll agree that they did and it's a nice buff.
PhillyT wrote:Hey, the flat 4+ was a nice easy thing to have. But it was often somewhat redundant since, once again, most units have a 5+ cover from SOMETHING. Now, our boyz at least get the option to ignore 2/3 the wounds that manage to get through our T5 and then we toss another 1/3 from FNP. Nob bikers are crazy tough now. They always were of course, but they now toss 16% more of the wounds that used to get through.
Nobody will say the loss of fearless isn't going to be felt. Or the loss of KFF projecting from vehicles. But when you combine all the other things (dedicated transports for key units, Tankbustas huge improvement, bikers costs dropping by 30%) you have a much improved army. And best of all, the here we go and waaagh rules will make this army.
Terrain will depend entirely on your board and club, and so is almost worthless to bring up in balanced discussion. We had the option of 4+ FNP on nob bikers before, in addition to cybork bodies being 5++, so if you can find a way to still make this a buff for Nob bikers... There is literally no way that Nob bikers are buffed now. None. Zero. Their cost is the same and their saves are all worse baring the 4+ armor save from the bike.
The buffs we got (baring Tankbusta buffs, which are sweet) in no way shape or form offset the neutering certain key elements received. You could say the codex is improved, I don't, but to say Orks are a "much improved army" requires a level of self delusion I am simply incapable of inflicting on myself.
So really people are crabbing about the loss of 50% of the goal hits we got last edition in exchange for a huge point drop and the potential for greater protection on a flat out?
First World problems!
Yeah, the real problem is that Ignore Cover exists not that we got nerfed. I think it was a buff based on points drop and the turbo-boost +1.
Exhaust is a Nerf in that it nerfs ALL Bikes. So Warbikers coming down in cost doesn't change the nerf to bikes for Warbosses, Big Meks, Painboys or Nobz. Is the points drop on regular Warbikers nice? Yes, it is. Will Warbikers be worth their now reduced points with their reduced save? Time will have to bear that one out. I'm suspecting plenty of people will play them, so hopefully we'll get lots of data pretty quickly.
Toburk wrote:
easysauce wrote: which is exactly the same cover you got before...
except you have 30% more models due to the 7pts decrease in cost.
so its a buff.
Regular warbikers got an unambiguous buff due to the cost reduction, which we all assumed would happen given the point reduction for bikes in every 6th Ed codex.
However, they still didn't get nearly the same degree of buff those other bikes received, which is pretty much the 7th Ed Ork codex in a nutshell. The whole thing reads almost like it was for mid 5th edition in terms of rules and power level.
This really is the perfect description for this book. It's a decent book with some unsightly flaws, but it's also 2 editions late.
PhillyT wrote:
This book will pancake tyranids and many space marine builds. IS it a challenger to the Eldar and Tau? Probably not, though I can see it giving mose Tau lists fits, especially if you go crazy biker heavy.
Plenty of S8 - S10 and/or AP2 in Nids that you characters are toast. Toast. Once that happens, Orks fall apart faster than Nids without Synapse. They may also have no invulnerable saves on Tyrants, but Tyrants can (and usually do) fly.
Broodlords? Broodlords will have your small units self destructing with Pinning checks at -2.
With how easy it is for Nids to spam psykers, your weirdboyz won't be getting anything through, and good luck stopping Catalyst from making your S10 warboss cry.
Seriously. I readily admit that I'm not the biggest fan of the Tyranid codex (even with the DLCataslates, but to say that this Ork codex will pancake Nids? You have to be joking. You just have to be.
And I'm not even getting into the Space Marine Chapter Master of Eternal Warrior Bike Thunderhammer Shield Doom.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 21:38:55
2014/06/25 21:39:40
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
So Wazdakka is gone because GW don't have a model for it. There are Relics in army now and one is a Bike? So what was the point of no model no special character? If we are forced to convert for relics what's the difference for character that has been part of our codex forever?
2014/06/25 21:41:22
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Bclion wrote: So Wazdakka is gone because GW don't have a model for it. There are Relics in army now and one is a Bike? So what was the point of no model no special character? If we are forced to convert for relics what's the difference for character that has been part of our codex forever?
Because that evil money grubbing Chapterhouse might make a model for it, and then you aren't buying GW pieces to make your own!
(there is none. it is pretty much a spite move, like Tyranid Myectic Spores being dropped entirely.)
2014/06/25 21:42:33
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
esp the part where he whines about flying MC's owning orcs...
its like the traktor cannon doesnt exist or somthing.
oh wow... just noticed you complaining about losing the 4+ FNP on them too...
stop living in the past jebus... that was literally AGES ago... may as well complain that choppas now allow saves better then 4+ while your at it..
not like the rules changed in the past 3 editions or so... str 8 no longer insta gibs and ignores that 4+ FNP either... you going to complain for GW to make nob bikers insta gibbed by str 8 again too?
context is important.
pre this codex, orcs lacked:
reliable ranged anti tank (we got it)
reliable ranged anti air (we have arguably, the best AA in the game now, and AA for MC's)
reliable ways to instagib MC's or multiwound models (we got it with force weapons and uber choppa)
a ++ on our mega nobs without having to take grotsnik ( we got it, as well as eviscerators for MANS, and the extra CC atack on mans... a nice buff)
reliable charge range buffs (we got it IN SPADES!! not only can we run and charge, but we also get to re roll a charge dice... serveral units like bikers, GAINED ere we go where before they didnt get it)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/25 21:56:04
2014/06/25 21:51:25
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Even if easysauces arguements are less then impressive, it seems you guys are quick to disregard some of the better upgrades we got in this codex and instead concentrate on builds and
armies that are pretty much exactly as they where in the last dex. I agree bikes look to be good still, but seriously, running orks like you have always done might not be the best way to go. We can actually shoot stuff now and get results.
Evil Sunz
The Dark Pact
2014/06/25 22:01:35
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Also the thing about tau - if you field a crapton of bikers against me im going to be a very sad tau player. I do NOT want to use my markerlights to strip cover because i almost never have more than 2 lights on a single unit unless i do the Mark'O trick - then i have little outside one unit getting hammered with lights lol.I would much rather make myself BS5 than ignore cover, but if its better than 5+ cover i kinda need to strip the cover. 4-6 units with 3+ cover turn 1 is going to scare the bejebus out of me. I might plaster 1 unit by giving my HBC riptide ignores cover, barring FNP rolls, but thats it unless you wiff 3+ like crazy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 22:02:33
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2014/06/25 22:05:04
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
We lost a 4+ cover for a 4+ cover with minus one bs... Not really a nerf, i used 15 bikes with a painboy yesterday against CSM and i lost 3 bikers the entire game! First turn i was on a 3+ followed by a 5+, 2nd turn i charged khornate terms and won, 3rd turn glanced a defilers back armour to deff. So for 18pts there good for what they do, not to mention a guarantee of line breaker
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
2014/06/25 22:08:08
Subject: Re:Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
I think with the new warbikers, you can have two squads of 15bikes with a painboy in each and they will do some amazing work. Both in the shooting phase and the assault phase.
I can't wait to use them. Not a huge deal they aren't troops anymore, they score in 7th anyways.
If you need objective secured, get some boyz in a trukk.
2014/06/25 22:10:51
Subject: Re:Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
tarnish wrote: Even if easysauces arguements are less then impressive, it seems you guys are quick to disregard some of the better upgrades we got in this codex and instead concentrate on builds and
armies that are pretty much exactly as they where in the last dex. I agree bikes look to be good still, but seriously, running orks like you have always done might not be the best way to go. We can actually shoot stuff now and get results.
I have acknowledged that there are several nice buffs in this book. Keep in mind I'm also focusing on units that existed previously and comparing changes, because there's only so much gushing that can be done over things like Mek Gunz (which are sweet, if stupidly expensive $$ wise).
Tankbustas are the most obvious example to me, of a unit that got buffs that it desperately needed. I would have loved to see them get more than just a Trukk for a DT, but meh. They still came down in cost, lost their unit-breaking Glory Hog limitations and get a few sweet USRs to boot. I look forward to finally getting to Tankhammer something in the face, and not risking my own Trukk when releasing Bomb Squigs!
Warbuggies! Even though a stray breeze can still wipe the floor with them, 5-10 points cheaper (depending on loadout) is sweet! I had just ordered a bunch of "sand buggies" from CNC to turn into Ork buggies, so I'm glad they're decent enough I did waste that money!
FlashGitz. Dunno if they'll really be that great on the table, but the models are super sweet. The sudden drop in armor save is perplexing though...
Shokk Attack gun! Okay, mostly unchanged (except getting Vortex on 11/12 strength), but still. I can put him on a bike, give him a Gitfinda and maybe I'll actually get something with it!
Blitz Bommas! AP2 + Large Blast on their Big Bomms? Sure they only get 2 per game, but still! I love the jets, and with the Dakkajet nerf why not make the other one into a Blitz Bomma?
The main issue is that just about everything I mentioned is secondary to units that can actually form a core of an army. Those are the ones that got hurt the most, generally speaking, and that's why despite the changes I do like, I can't see this codex as anything other than a sidegrade at best.
2014/06/25 22:16:37
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
If you are playing in an environment where FW is not allowed, then you are already in the world of house ruling, so are essentially limiting yourselves. Can't really blame anyone else.
If you can keep your head, while all about you are losing their's, then you have probably completely misunderstood the situation!
6,000pts
5,500pts
3,500pts
2,500pts
2014/06/25 22:17:58
Subject: Re:Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
deffrekka wrote: We lost a 4+ cover for a 4+ cover with minus one bs... Not really a nerf, i used 15 bikes with a painboy yesterday against CSM and i lost 3 bikers the entire game! First turn i was on a 3+ followed by a 5+, 2nd turn i charged khornate terms and won, 3rd turn glanced a defilers back armour to deff. So for 18pts there good for what they do, not to mention a guarantee of line breaker
Can you give us more details on the game you played? You mentioned it earlier as well, and I find it gonzo bizarre that an Ork army would only lose 3 bikes, 18 boyz (and a meganob or two? I don't totaly remember your post.) in a 2000 point game.
2014/06/25 22:26:14
Subject: Re:Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Vineheart01 wrote: Wait, SAG does the vortex thing on an 11 as well? You mean rolling an 11 isnt a BAD thing anymore?
Omg....
11 is still just the hole of the template.
12 is full template vortex
Soon his foes would learn that the only thing more dangerous than a savage three hundred pound brute is a savage three hundred pound brute with a plan - Ork Codex
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2014/06/25 22:38:40
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Did they at least get rid of the cannot fire next turn crap?
Thats the thing that peeved me the most about that thing. As i tend to roll it unusually often.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2014/06/25 22:39:36
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Bclion wrote: So Wazdakka is gone because GW don't have a model for it. There are Relics in army now and one is a Bike? So what was the point of no model no special character? If we are forced to convert for relics what's the difference for character that has been part of our codex forever?
Because that evil money grubbing Chapterhouse might make a model for it, and then you aren't buying GW pieces to make your own!
(there is none. it is pretty much a spite move, like Tyranid Myectic Spores being dropped entirely.)
See, this is why your complaints about the rules are so difficult to accept as legitimately about the rules. You have a great deal of bile to spew about GW as a whole. The rules are just one small part and your statements about them are heavily tainted because of it.
Bikes can take their 4+ cover save anytime they want. They often won't need to because of the existence of terrain. 90% of the time you can claim a 5+ save. On those occasions that that won't be enough, you can take a 4+ jink save. If you really want a good cover save, go flat out and get a 3+. It isn't in any way a nerd, especially when you factor in the price drop. But keep on venting, please.
Yeah that bits gone completely. The only thing 11 does is reduce the blast to the hole in the template, no restriction from firing next turn.
Soon his foes would learn that the only thing more dangerous than a savage three hundred pound brute is a savage three hundred pound brute with a plan - Ork Codex
I've recently started taking on commissions, if you'd like to talk a project over feel free to PM me here, or find me at:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BasiliskStudios Email: Basilisk.Studios@yahoo.co.uk
2014/06/25 22:47:47
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Epic. Thanks that makes me happier. Ive actually landed that thing before so it wasnt impossible, but not being able to fire next turn just pissed me off. I had it happen 3 times one game lol...basically never did anything since i missed every time and didnt fire the other 3 turns.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2014/06/25 22:50:52
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
Bclion wrote: So Wazdakka is gone because GW don't have a model for it. There are Relics in army now and one is a Bike? So what was the point of no model no special character? If we are forced to convert for relics what's the difference for character that has been part of our codex forever?
Because that evil money grubbing Chapterhouse might make a model for it, and then you aren't buying GW pieces to make your own!
(there is none. it is pretty much a spite move, like Tyranid Myectic Spores being dropped entirely.)
See, this is why your complaints about the rules are so difficult to accept as legitimately about the rules. You have a great deal of bile to spew about GW as a whole. The rules are just one small part and your statements about them are heavily tainted because of it.
Bikes can take their 4+ cover save anytime they want. They often won't need to because of the existence of terrain. 90% of the time you can claim a 5+ save. On those occasions that that won't be enough, you can take a 4+ jink save. If you really want a good cover save, go flat out and get a 3+. It isn't in any way a nerd, especially when you factor in the price drop. But keep on venting, please.
Uh, I guess I thought it was clear that post should be read jokingly ("evil moneygrubbing Chapterhouse" should have been a clue I guess?). I mean, I agree with the general sentiment that GW is removing things it doesn't make or want to make a model for due to the Chapterhouse lawsuit, but I don't hate them for it or anything. Am I disappointed they couldn't return Spores to even just a special rule for Nids? Sure. Do I think GW is evil and I hate everything they do?
I've said before: I pre-ordered the Warboss edition of this codex. I enjoy 40k. I enjoy modeling (not so much painting, but modeling), playing and talking about it. That doesn't make me blind to issues that exist in this (or any other) codex.
Again, the existence of cover is ENTIRELY dependent on the board you play on and the club you play in. It's generally left out as a factor because it varies SO MUCH from table to table and game to game. Looking at the hard copy, written rules of a game is what I'm doing.
We had something, we lost it except for going through this other thing that comes with its own cost. Sure, we get this bonus in this other situation, but that doesn't change losing something. Will it be the biggest nerf in Ork or 40k history? That I can't say, I'd probably say the loss of ++ cybork is a bigger deal, personally. Does that make it not a nerf? No. Can we work around it by doing other things? Yes. Does that make it not a nerf? No. I'm not sure how much more clear you want me to be.
2014/06/25 22:53:49
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
I feel like Warbikers have gotten overall buffs, so much so that I cannot conceivably imagine using my battleforce bikes as nob bikers any more.
I think Nob Bikers are a joke now, though. If you still want to use them, good for you.
Waagh requires a Warboss now, does it not? Or a roll on the warlord trait.
'Ere We Go is a substitute for the loss of Waagh. Combined they make for a massive threat range. I'm just not sure about using a Waaghboss any more.
Fundamentally I think that everyone can recognize that the really massive buffs in this codex are primarily the Mek guns and the Tankbustas. Anything else seems up in the air to me.
And the nerfs to the boyz are obvious, and god do they sting.
I can't believe you dudes are still going to take a KFF. It would cost as much as a battlewagon to put that thing on a bike - why not just buy another battlewagon?
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2014/06/25 23:01:35
Subject: Ork rumours - First post updated 20th June
CSM had 6 obliterators, 2 hell drakes, 30 marines with mark of slaanesh, 30 cultists with mark of nurgle, 2 rhinos, land raider with sorcerer lvl 3 on biomancy with mark of khorne termies with him, i had 90 boys, 3 big trakks (two with supakannons, ard case and riggers) 5 meganobs, 2 kff big meks, 2 meks (in the superkannon trakks), 15 bikers with nob pk and painboy with waaagh! Banner, and 2 blitza bommas, 10 kommandos
i got first turn and first blood, line breaker, game type was big guns never tire, kff's were my saving grace for all my boys, and due to his bad rolling. IWND and meks continually fixed my big trakks at the back of my deployment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Obliterators had mark of nurgle as well. I did even touch them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And banner of excess was dotted around the squads if i remember correctly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From skullchewer off warseer:
Ghaz supplement gives a new Warlord trait and relics section, some army wide rules if you use it and lots and lots of formations.
Some of the Relics:
4+ kff Axe of Ragnarork: Every model you kill gives +1str -1ap,
Cybork body that's give 5+ fnp and Eternal warrior
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/25 23:19:02
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
The whole thing reads almost like it was for mid 5th edition in terms of rules and power level.
Evil Sunz
The Dark Pact
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
6,000pts
5,500pts
2,500pts 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.