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2016/03/30 23:44:45
Subject: Miniature Market and Privateer Press Online Retailer Policy - Discount Reduced to 10% (Again)
judgedoug wrote: Miniature Market once again stands up to Privateer Press
So, I wonder if someone can change the thread title?
Original Post:
Spoiler:
From Miniature Market:
Note: In an effort to prevent us from selling their products at our current discount, Privateer Press has threatened to delay our new item shipments to our distribution partners. As a result, there is a chance that new item purchases could be delayed by 7-14 days past their release date. We have no intentions of raising our prices or ceasing to carry Privateer Press products. Let your voice be heard by contacting Privateer Press
PRIVATEER AXES OFFENDING ONLINE RETAILERS
'We Do Not Condone the Free Riders' Parasitic Business Model'
Privateer Press, makers of Warmachine and Hordes, has announced a new sales policy which it hopes will end deeply discounted online sales.
In the letter sent out to retailers, Privateer Press President Sherry Yeary explained the rationale. “Over the last eleven years… online retailers with nearly no overhead and very little meaningful contact with our audience have been undermining the stability of the market by selling product at discounts well below retail value, depending solely on the efforts of our brick and mortar partners who offer services that nurture our audience and grow the market to move their product,” she wrote. “This model of business is widely recognized by experts and the justice system as ‘free riding.’ While this can be a viable business model for many mainstream products, it is common knowledge that in our industry it’s crippling and anticompetitive.”
Privateer plans to create a list of retailers that it views as “free riders,” which it defines as “retailers …offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services” and will impose sanctions on distributors that sell to those retailers. The list will be updated by adding or deleting retailers as needed. Distributors that sell to retailers on Privateer’s “free rider” list will have their shipments of Privateer product, including new releases, delayed. The new policy goes into effect on April 4.
“We do not condone the free riders’ parasitic business model and elect to both continue and enhance our partnerships with those distributors that share our point of view and actively work in the best interests of the brick-and-mortar retailers,” Yeary continued. “While we cannot and would not dictate to our distributor partners who they can or cannot sell to, we believe free riders are eroding the foundation of our industry and hurting our business; only with the cooperation of our distribution partners can we prevent that.”
The letter also states online sales can continue, as “(w)e also recognize that online retailers provide access to the product to some customers who do not have ready access to a local brick-and-mortar store. We hope those online retailers with integrity and the foresight to protect the longevity and availability of the product lines providing their income will swiftly adjust any retailing practices that are counterproductive to the health of our industry.”
No maximum discount off retail price or other quantifiable measure of “counterproductive” business practices was outlined in Privateer’s letter, which said only that the process of creating the list would rely on an “internal evaluation process.” Nor was there any discussion of how Privateer will handle brick and mortar retailers that also sell online, for example as Amazon third party sellers, a growing trend.
ICv2 noted the growing channel conflict between brick and mortar game stores and online sellers (many of whom are also brick and mortar retailers disposing of excess inventory as Amazon third party sellers) in its most recent issue of Internal Correspondence #89 (see “Seven Years of Plenty in the Hobby Games Business”). And Privateer’s store support is definitely being affected by the problem, according to the report. Retailer Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games in Concord, California, for example, dropped Privateer products because of channel conflict. “There is a huge demand for the game, but everybody is buying it online at a discount,” Ray said of Warmachine. “It got down to one turn per year and we dropped it.”
Privateer is the latest in a growing list of manufacturers addressing the channel conflict between brick-and-mortar and online retailers. Asmodee NA has a policy going into effect in April, and discusses similar reasons why the “one-size-fits-all” system of distribution has undermined the financial position of Friendly Local Game Stores which offer additional services and community in addition to selling games (see “ICv2 Interview: Asmodee North America CEO Christian Petersen, Part 2”). WizKids introduced a policy limiting preorders on new HeroClix product last year (see “Rolling for Initiative--Kudos to WizKids” and Mayfair Games has a long-standing policy limiting online discount as well (see “Online Discounting of Games - One Year Later”).
And so with enough success every company begins down the GW road.
Be careful, he who fights monsters, to not eventually become the monster.
Oh well... If anything I have finally broken my weird need to play "the most popular" systems, and have found infinitely more hobby fun, and actual enjoyment in games, often from the tiniest publishers. Hell, Guild-Ball essentially out Warmahordes, Warmahordes, with just as well written, just as competitive rules, and a less aggressive, anti-hobby, pro-douche-bag atmosphere.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/30 23:55:56
ced1106 wrote: Privateer plans to create a list of retailers that it views as “free riders,” which it defines as “retailers …offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services
ced1106 wrote: While we cannot and would not dictate to our distributor partners who they can or cannot sell to
Yeah...maybe proofread stuff before publishing a statement.
This is just ridiculous and even below GW levels. I don't even know what to say on this...they complain about people having /decided/ to have an actual store having to pay for overhead and thus being forced to sell models for more? Yeah...so...if you can't run a Brick n' Mortar in the internet age, don't run it. Duh. This is amazing - and is this even legal?
As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
And that is noble of you, and something I respect. I likewise try to buy "something" every time I game at a FLGS to show support, and appreciation for them hosting tables, etc...
That said, i've also seen plenty of them pay their bills by grifting kids out of Pokemon cards, or Magic cards, or relegate their miniatures gamers to 2nd class citizens.
That's the thing. Game stores aren't a single "entity" to be "defended" by Privateer, or anyone else. They're businesses and the local community, economy, etc... will decide if they live or die. Frankly the last thing we need is any company emulating GW, who mostly just managed to make people hate them by enforcing dictatorial rule over a game.
I take this as nothing more than a sign that Privateer is doing too well, and might need a good old consumer adjustment, where fans show them how much they appreciate this sort of command from on high. But hey... Fantasy Flight tried this crap with X-wing, and reversed the decision almost immediately when sales briefly tumbled and Amazon huffed and puffed.
Well, I have bought 2 PP products in the last.. 12 or so years? Both were through Miniature Market.. who.. has an actual storefront as far as I know.. sooo.. this is funny to me.
So as a gamer with no LGS, I shop exclusively online. Now I will potentially be facing higher prices because PP wants to be "noble" and help the poor old LGS owner by blacklisting certain businesses. Nice.
The deep discounts were actually enabling me to buy their product. At MSRP their prices are a joke. Even some things at discount make me carefully consider them.
Oh well, no big loss. Plenty of more enjoyable games out there for me to throw money at.
Eh, Miniature Market and The Warstore will be OK, as they are physical stores. Discount Games might be a bit boned. Interestingly, it says they'll delay product to those distributors, not refuse to ship. I think its preferably to offer in-store promos like Wyrd does with Malifaux... carrot enticement goes over better with the gaming community rather than stick deterrent.
"offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services”
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Eh, Miniature Market and The Warstore will be OK, as they are physical stores. Discount Games might be a bit boned. Interestingly, it says they'll delay product to those distributors, not refuse to ship. I think its preferably to offer in-store promos like Wyrd does with Malifaux... carrot enticement goes over better with the gaming community rather than stick deterrent.
Will they be ok? There isn't a clear cut definition by what Privateer Press dictates as a "deep discount and offering". They didn't give any examples of these "deep discounts" or how they determine what "nothing in the way of services" means. Simply having a store front doesn't mean an online presence and/or store is protected as it is subjective based on how they defined it. What separates a clearance or sale price from a "deep discount" and since they will add and remove stores on a whim based on what they deem fit?
If this is some sort of April Fool's joke, it is in really poor taste.
I'd be curious to know what Privateer Press will do in return to support the communities at local stores as well, since, you know, this is totally about the services these stores provide and not PP maximizing profits.
Completely anecdotal, but my nearest FLGS had a huge end of year clear-out on unsold stock, offering a 50% off + buy2-get-1-free offer. I stopped by yesterday, months after they started the sale, and that discount shelf is still loaded with PP stuff, while the GW stuff is gone and others are all but cleared out. Sure seems like PP hasn't done much to support the community when they're practically giving away the stuff at this store and no one is buying.
If anyone is interested and in the Austin, Texas area, the store is Tribe Games. Can't say specifically what all they had because I didn't care enough to look, but there is a decent amount there.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
I wonder if the competitive nature of the game itself does not hamper sales to a degree. This has been billed as a refuge for those that want competitive play, and are unsatisfied by GW. But when Privateer releases a new book or unit that does not pass the 'sniff test' from the competitive crowd, is it then dead on arrival in shops when word gets around that it's not a world beating unit? We know this happens in 40K, and it is a much less competition focused game. At least in how GW promotes it, compared to how Privateer tries to sell Warmahordes.
Recently my store firesaled all of their PP stuff that isnt paint.
The problem allways seemed to be that most of the time you only needed 1 box or one of the blisters. It isnt like 40k where sometimes someone will just buy another box because it is cool. I just got some tempustus scions cause they are an awesomely fun kit, that doesnt happen in warmachine with alot of stuff is just bare metal or resin.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
And that is noble of you, and something I respect. I likewise try to buy "something" every time I game at a FLGS to show support, and appreciation for them hosting tables, etc...
That said, i've also seen plenty of them pay their bills by grifting kids out of Pokemon cards, or Magic cards, or relegate their miniatures gamers to 2nd class citizens.
That's the thing. Game stores aren't a single "entity" to be "defended" by Privateer, or anyone else. They're businesses and the local community, economy, etc... will decide if they live or die. Frankly the last thing we need is any company emulating GW, who mostly just managed to make people hate them by enforcing dictatorial rule over a game.
I take this as nothing more than a sign that Privateer is doing too well, and might need a good old consumer adjustment, where fans show them how much they appreciate this sort of command from on high. But hey... Fantasy Flight tried this crap with X-wing, and reversed the decision almost immediately when sales briefly tumbled and Amazon huffed and puffed.
I don't think it is a good decision on their part, morally or business-wise, my indifference is because I have enough world experience to be apathetic when people decide to dig themselves into a hole. They could avoid the problem entirely by pricing things more reasonably; 20% off a $30 box is a lot less attractive than 20% off a $60 box, especially when the price of shipping doesn't change.
What bizarro wargaming world have I stepped into where GW is releasing discount boxsets and engaging with the community again and PP are exerting draconian measures from their Iron Tower.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 02:56:34
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Whether or not you like the effect that online discounters have, it is frankly naive to think that any company like PP can actually fight these economic trends. The move to online discounters is waaaaaaay bigger than the hobby games market.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
Finally I can stop hearing about how PP's poo smells like roses and sunshine.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
"offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services”
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Eh, Miniature Market and The Warstore will be OK, as they are physical stores. Discount Games might be a bit boned. Interestingly, it says they'll delay product to those distributors, not refuse to ship. I think its preferably to offer in-store promos like Wyrd does with Malifaux... carrot enticement goes over better with the gaming community rather than stick deterrent.
Will they be ok? There isn't a clear cut definition by what Privateer Press dictates as a "deep discount and offering". They didn't give any examples of these "deep discounts" or how they determine what "nothing in the way of services" means. Simply having a store front doesn't mean an online presence and/or store is protected as it is subjective based on how they defined it. What separates a clearance or sale price from a "deep discount" and since they will add and remove stores on a whim based on what they deem fit?
Why would they? One of my best buds moved to Minneapolis, and MM is literally his FLGS. They run events and everything. The failure of other LGS to catch up is entirely their own. Frankly, if you cant offer 20% discount online, it's your own friggin fault.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why would they? One of my best buds moved to Minneapolis, and MM is literally his FLGS. They run events and everything. The failure of other LGS to catch up is entirely their own. Frankly, if you cant offer 20% discount online, it's your own friggin fault.
Because they didn't define what actual amount of the discount that they define as deep discount. MM gives more than 20% on quite a few PP items. If 20% is the cutoff then even if they have a FLGS their statement says they "could" go in the "free riders" list.
Also, way to be classy, PP. Saying that they "steal sales" is being incredibly antagonistic to the stores who are probably some of your biggest retailers.
The only thing I buy local is paint, I would love to support some of the local game stores, most in my area are rubbish. However most dont want to compete with online prices, and it a world where our table top games are already overly expensive I need to stretch my dollar even further just to afford to field a full army. My current example, I play Trollbloods and want a Glacier King, $134 retail or $91 on ebay with free shipping. That nets me $40 to spend on an entire Unit!! What do they expect us to do? It tells me that at $91 that dude is still making a profit, so they can afford to lower the price of these models.
"Bbbut....muh Privateer Press would never do that! GW is just an evil corporation who is trying to screw over the customers!"
I've been waiting for this day. Where is your god now? Maybe now, finally, we can stop hearing about how PP can do no wrong. The best part is, PP didn't even wait until they went public to pull this.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
& 