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At a tournament today and was just yakking with some mates, anyway, the topic of another player's GSC came up and I was surprised by a lot of negativity towards this player's mods - he's stretched the more expensive GSC kits with Imperial Guard that he picked up in the start collecting boxes and 2nd hand Genestealers and personally I think they look great - biggest surprise is that these are the same people who usually vote for my kit-bashed Space Wolves army or another player's Junkyard Boyz in the best conversions award. None of them can really give specifics on why they don't like the GSC conversions.


So the question is - In your opinion, what makes a Cool Conversion, just a Kit-Bashing or a Poxy Proxie?

To be fair, anything that looks good or follows a theme.
Got no issues with conversions or proxies.

Only time I have an issue is when it's done for a huge advantage (size and Base wise etc) or when you can see they simply couldn't be bothered to try.

Ie: the old coke can drop pods that I think most people have seen.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
At a tournament today and was just yakking with some mates, anyway, the topic of another player's GSC came up and I was surprised by a lot of negativity towards this player's mods - he's stretched the more expensive GSC kits with Imperial Guard that he picked up in the start collecting boxes and 2nd hand Genestealers and personally I think they look great - biggest surprise is that these are the same people who usually vote for my kit-bashed Space Wolves army or another player's Junkyard Boyz in the best conversions award. None of them can really give specifics on why they don't like the GSC conversions.


So the question is - In your opinion, what makes a Cool Conversion, just a Kit-Bashing or a Poxy Proxie?

Imho i judge by the overall look of the army. If all the conversions looks spot, and shrewd i couldn't care less if they are a proper kit-bash or just a proxy from some third party.

Also bear in mind that each people have different tastes and that can affect how they see the model (as an example i love my wraithblades with all vanes and spiky parts in head/arms while a local player likes them as smooth and round as possible avoiding such vanes and spikes) In the end Beauty it's in the eye of the Beholder!

On the genestealer cult part. GW actually encourages this - > https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Genestealer-Cults-Armoured-Claw


Proxies -> Just using an other model with no effort at all to make it represent the intended model.

On the what is a conversion an what is a kitbash part. Making a difference is in my opinion kinda nonsensical, since kit bashing is just one of the techniques of converting.

 oldzoggy wrote:
On the genestealer cult part. GW actually encourages this - > https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Genestealer-Cults-Armoured-Claw


Proxies -> Just using an other model with no effort at all to make it represent the intended model.

On the what is a conversion an what is a kitbash part. Making a difference is in my opinion kinda nonsensical, since kit bashing is just one of the techniques of converting.

Fair enough.
I've always considered it kitbashing when it stays within the confines of the GW kit range.

Those hybrid packs look pretty tidy, no third arm though.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Fair enough.
I've always considered it kitbashing when it stays within the confines of the GW kit range.

This is one of the reasons why I dislike most TO rulings about the "lowly kit bashing" and the "highly praised conversions" with a passion.
It isn't that I mind the points, its that those rulings can be quite insulting to an avid converter.
I am one of those guys who likes to convert every mini in his army, simply because I like to make my army my own and consider GW's kits a pre packaged collections of bits and realy take your time to inspect each minature.
Most TO's I have met hower are not the enthusiastic modelling type who know every bit by heart, this results either in mislabelled armies based on a lot of overlooked conversions or poorly phrased definitions like yours.

For example. ( note these are not my minatures)

This conversion that took hours will be "just kitbashing" in your definition, wile some dude who just did a kromleg body swap would most likely be ranked as a converion


There are some TO's who like to use the " when you had to use a knife" its converting rule. This is however next to impossible to deduce from most good conversions unless you are really familiar with all bits used.
So most conversions will be overlooked entirely or classed as kit bashing. The same holds true for greenstuff sculpting I am quite sure that nearly all To's would completely miss the greenstuffed boots on this mini once it is painted.

1. Does it look good and thematic (and the better something looks, the more I'm likely to let something get away for not being perfectly thematic)?

2. Can I consistently tell this model apart from whatever else I might be fighting?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Fair enough.
I've always considered it kitbashing when it stays within the confines of the GW kit range.

This is one of the reasons why I dislike most TO rulings about the "lowly kit bashing" and the "highly praised conversions" with a passion.
It isn't that I mind the points, its that those rulings can be quite insulting to an avid converter.
I am one of those guys who likes to convert every mini in his army, simply because I like to make my army my own and consider GW's kits a pre packaged collections of bits and realy take your time to inspect each minature.
Most TO's I have met hower are not the enthusiastic modelling type who know every bit by heart, this results either in mislabelled armies based on a lot of overlooked conversions or poorly phrased definitions like yours.

For example. ( note these are not my minatures)

This conversion that took hours will be "just kitbashing" in your definition, wile some dude who just did a kromleg body swap would most likely be ranked as a converion


There are some TO's who like to use the " when you had to use a knife" its converting rule. This is however next to impossible to deduce from most good conversions unless you are really familiar with all bits used.
So most conversions will be overlooked entirely or classed as kit bashing. The same holds true for greenstuff sculpting I am quite sure that nearly all To's would completely miss the greenstuffed boots on this mini once it is painted.

Don't know if he votes or not but the TOs only real job in all this is tallying votes, he's not a judge.

My Wolves are pretty clearly kitbashed.
*Bloodclaws are vanilla marines with Space Wolf heads and some carry Space Wolf Bolt Pistols or Chainswords - makes the rest of the army look like they're loaded with trophies rather than superstitious trinkets.
*Grey Hunters are WFB Chaos Warriors with Space Wolf heads, helmets, backpacks and Bolters.
*Wulfen sprues are stretched by TDA from Betrayal at Calth.
*Biker Guard look like the local 'retiree' bike club.
*Ironwolves "Extra Armour" is Tau drones strapped to the front of vehicles.
Only time I really use greenstuff is to make different hairdos and the drone straps.
Personally I count my army as 'Just Kitbashing' my modelling is nowhere near as good as the 'Junkyard Boyz' what gets me similar vote numbers is the comedy in my stuff.
Nothing is sacred.

In comparison the Junkyard Boyz vehicles are pretty clearly made up of non-GW materials. I can recognise Gundam, WWII tanks, Warmachine and Transformers. All Orked up with Greenstuff.
I usually vote for him.

The GSC like my Wolves are pretty obviously staying inside the GW range. I'm always open to the possibility I might be wrong - maybe he modelled the extra arms and claws with greenstuff, if that is the case I'm glad I voted for him this time.

I have never before heard of a definition of 'conversion' which relies on the source of parts. It is completely absurd. How the hell an arm or weapon swap with 3rd party parts makes it any more a conversion than making a similar swap with GW parts? Pure lunacy.

In any case, I'm highly in favour of conversions and kit bashes. That's like the best thing in this hobby.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Don't know if he votes or not but the TOs only real job in all this is tallying votes, he's not a judge.

Its his or her event so they can do whatever they want. Some of them of them rank the armies on the conversion scale themselves.
However I would be willing to bet a significant amount of money on that you and the average tournament players are no better in discovering conversions on models not in your own army, making the whole idea kinda moot.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Don't know if he votes or not but the TOs only real job in all this is tallying votes, he's not a judge.

Its his or her event so they can do whatever they want. Some of them of them rank the armies on the conversion scale themselves.
However I would be willing to bet a significant amount of money on that you and the average tournament players are no better in discovering conversions on models not in your own army, making the whole idea kinda moot.

Players who want to be in the conversions award enter their army and the players vote for their favorite then stick their vote in the bucket. I'm pretty sure it's not worth the TOs time to mess with the count.
It's possible there's converted armies that don't enter, cold feet or player didn't convert the models themselves.
Most people do this crazy thing called 'asking' to find out about conversions they like, so we do wind up with an idea about how conversions are made.
I did wind up asking the GSC player about his army, just a Stanley Knife and glue, no greenstuff.

I converted an Eldar Wraith Lord into a talos pain engine a few nights ago, I thought it looks pretty baller, and am really happy with how it turned out. I used bits from probably about 4/5 different kits, and did a lot of chopping to get it to look nice.

When I put it on the table yesterday, some guy picked it up and just said 'cool idea, its a real shame I know where all the bits come from'

I don't understand the obsession with recognizing bits? Honestly is that the best scale of a conversion's worth? I think not. Personally I believe it is more important to focus on whether the conversion is original and well executed, not how mysterious the bits are.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I converted an Eldar Wraith Lord into a talos pain engine a few nights ago, I thought it looks pretty baller, and am really happy with how it turned out. I used bits from probably about 4/5 different kits, and did a lot of chopping to get it to look nice.

When I put it on the table yesterday, some guy picked it up and just said 'cool idea, its a real shame I know where all the bits come from'

I don't understand the obsession with recognizing bits? Honestly is that the best scale of a conversion's worth? I think not. Personally I believe it is more important to focus on whether the conversion is original and well executed, not how mysterious the bits are.

That kind of comments like the one from that guy are the ones who pisses me off.

just look at the model does it looks cool, fits the army theme? then it's a good conversion if you can recognize the Bits sometimes can be a good thing as it can provide further ideas you may never had come with.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I converted an Eldar Wraith Lord into a talos pain engine a few nights ago, I thought it looks pretty baller, and am really happy with how it turned out. I used bits from probably about 4/5 different kits, and did a lot of chopping to get it to look nice.

When I put it on the table yesterday, some guy picked it up and just said 'cool idea, its a real shame I know where all the bits come from'

I don't understand the obsession with recognizing bits? Honestly is that the best scale of a conversion's worth? I think not. Personally I believe it is more important to focus on whether the conversion is original and well executed, not how mysterious the bits are.

That kind of comments like the one from that guy are the ones who pisses me off.

just look at the model does it looks cool, fits the army theme? then it's a good conversion if you can recognize the Bits sometimes can be a good thing as it can provide further ideas you may never had come with.

Agreed.
Never seen it in a Pain Engine but since they have the same cobbled look as Ork gear I think being able to recognise parts would add to the look of a model.

Polish and consistency. It has to fit with the rest of the army, and it has to be cleaned up and not haphazard or full of greenstuff scraps and the like.

Bonus points for implying narrative. Stick a prominent hood ornament on your Ork contraption and come up with a story about where he got it from, that sort of thing.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I converted an Eldar Wraith Lord into a talos pain engine a few nights ago, I thought it looks pretty baller, and am really happy with how it turned out. I used bits from probably about 4/5 different kits, and did a lot of chopping to get it to look nice.

When I put it on the table yesterday, some guy picked it up and just said 'cool idea, its a real shame I know where all the bits come from'

I don't understand the obsession with recognizing bits? Honestly is that the best scale of a conversion's worth? I think not. Personally I believe it is more important to focus on whether the conversion is original and well executed, not how mysterious the bits are.

Did someone really say that?

Excuse the French, but what a sanctimonious prick.

Find his address and I'll mail him a dog turd. I'll put a couple of bolters and some dryad arms in there so at least he knows where all the bits came from.

As for the whole 'lowly kitbashing' vs 'hallowed converting' I really don't get why people feel the need to belittle other people's work based on arbitrary measures. I spend pretty much all of my hobby time doing what these people would call 'converting', and as far as I can tell I haven't made anything that's in any way, shape or form better than someone who's 'kitbashing'.

I'll throw out some examples here, taken from one of my main inspirations. The utterly fantastic Lions of Asuryan by Cavalier over on 40kOnline.

Corsair Guardians

Kitbashed

Corsair Autarch and Archon (spoilered because the pic's huge)

Kitbashed

Corsair Howling Banshees


Kitbashed

Corsair Warp Spiders

Kitbashed

Corsair Striking Scorpion Exarch


Kitbashed.

I could go on and on and on with this one army along, let alone the dozens and dozens of other phenomenal kitbashed armies out there.

Apologies for the rant, but in case anyone couldn't tell it's something I feel passionately about! If I encountered that sort of negative attitude when I was just starting out converting, I'd never have done anything I've done in the past 5 months I'm sure of it.

Proper conversion work is nothing to do with the source of your parts, or your method of modelling.

It is about vision, execution and Rule of Cool.

Slightly off topic but has there ever been a case of a 4th wall break in the 40k universe?
All this talk of bits from outside the 40k universe is generating energy, that lightbulb might be lighting up for the first time in months.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...As for the whole 'lowly kitbashing' vs 'hallowed converting'...Proper conversion work is nothing to do with the source of your parts, or your method of modelling.

It is about vision, execution and Rule of Cool.

Agree wholeheartedly. A well-kitbashed model is going to score infinitely more points with me than a poorly-converted model. It's about the result, not the methods; 'degree of difficulty' is a secondary consideration if it deserves to be mentioned at all.

I can point at the swathe of Corsair Banshees and tell you that they're Dire Avenger torsos on Wych legs with Hellion arms and Scourge heads (except for the Exarch, who's got Warrior legs and Dire Avenger arms), but if I'm going to pick on them it's going to be for the blank bases or the male Howling Banshees, not because 'I know where all the parts are from'. The resulting poses are fantastic, the colour scheme is excellent, they look like GW cast them that way, they have Scourge beaky masks, and they look awesome, and in the end that's what counts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Slightly off topic but has there ever been a case of a 4th wall break in the 40k universe?
All this talk of bits from outside the 40k universe is generating energy, that lightbulb might be lighting up for the first time in months.

Occasionally you get models from outside the 40k universe that just fit the aesthetic, though. My favourite example is the Eisenkern from Dreamforge Games and their collar-aquilas.

(GW's usually pretty good about the fourth wall. You could check Ciaphas Cain for oblique references, but any actual fourth-wall-breaking is probably from the mad years of RT/2e.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...As for the whole 'lowly kitbashing' vs 'hallowed converting'...Proper conversion work is nothing to do with the source of your parts, or your method of modelling.

It is about vision, execution and Rule of Cool.

Agree wholeheartedly. A well-kitbashed model is going to score infinitely more points with me than a poorly-converted model. It's about the result, not the methods; 'degree of difficulty' is a secondary consideration if it deserves to be mentioned at all.

I can point at the swathe of Corsair Banshees and tell you that they're Dire Avenger torsos on Wych legs with Hellion arms and Scourge heads (except for the Exarch, who's got Warrior legs and Dire Avenger arms), but if I'm going to pick on them it's going to be for the blank bases or the male Howling Banshees, not because 'I know where all the parts are from'. The resulting poses are fantastic, the colour scheme is excellent, they look like GW cast them that way, they have Scourge beaky masks, and they look awesome, and in the end that's what counts.

Absolutely. 'Degree of difficulty' should only ever be a consideration when someone has put a phenomenal amount of effort into converting something. A positive comment about the talent involved. Never a negative disparagement for 'not trying hard enough' or whatever the hell it is that goes through these people's minds.

In defence of Cav's work I think they're WIP (couldn't find a finished shot as I think they got squashed in an accident before he could get a photo), hence the blank bases real shame as they're some of my favourites