Astra Militarum: To buy the new codex or to not buy the new codex

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**Andilus Greatsword**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sasori wrote:
As a Tyranid player, let me bust out my small Vvolin for you.

In all reality, it's pretty hard to evaluate a full codex overnight. Give it some time.
Yeah, it took at least 13 hours to reach a consensus that the Tyranid codex sucked, lol. And 4 months later.... yup, still sucks.

13 hours? Took me 5 minutes. "...did someone copy + paste the last book?"

**Sparkadia**

I'll wait until it comes down in pri- Oh I couldn't keep a straight face for that one.

**Andilus Greatsword**

Sparkadia wrote:
I'll wait until it comes down in pri- Oh I couldn't keep a straight face for that one.

I can. I was going to pre-order it, but then I thought "why do that when I can just buy it on ebay after release for much cheaper?" Especially because I'd have to add onto my order to get free shipping from GW.

**ZebioLizard2**

Al'Rahem and Chenkov both unlocked very different playstyles for guard. It would be vaguely almost paramount to removing bike officers from the SM codex so that you couldn't run all-bike lists anymore.

Wouldn't bother me, at least DA would finally have their niche's back.

**Iron_Captain**

Sly Marbo isn't left out of the codex. He has just chosen to go back hiding in the shadows (Sly Marbo doesn't hide in the shadows, it is the light that hides from Sly Marbo!), stalking you.

**lilgammer123**

Man I played guard instead of any other army for Al'Rahem, plus the loss of artilery(guards icons all gone), and I dont want a remake of Marbo and Rahem I WANT MY GOD DAMN ARMY BACK! (im aware these are rumors but still)

**Agent_Tremolo**

It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.

It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.

**TheKbob**

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.

It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.

Spoiler:

(Bonus points to whomever 'shops that to be the new IG book)

**Sparkadia**

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.

It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.

That doesn't mean they won't be missed. The fact they cut anything at all is lamentable, and moronic.

**zoat**

Like it or not I'm getting the book. In fact I already ordered it!

Why?

I spend far too much time on the hobby aspect of 40k. If I don't get the book, what am I to do with all the guard models I have collected and painted over the years?

**Fenrir Kitsune**

zoat wrote:
Like it or not I'm getting the book. In fact I already ordered it!

Why?

I spend far too much time on the hobby aspect of 40k. If I don't get the book, what am I to do with all the guard models I have collected and painted over the years?

Errrr........the same as you've been doing up until now?

**Daston**

Here are my thoughts,

Characters gone - no biggie never use them anyway.

Nurfs to units does suck and thd hydra rules are pants.

Missing artillery again dosnt bother me, will just pick up the imperial armour book for the rules.

**Andilus Greatsword**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Al'Rahem and Chenkov both unlocked very different playstyles for guard. It would be vaguely almost paramount to removing bike officers from the SM codex so that you couldn't run all-bike lists anymore.

Wouldn't bother me, at least DA would finally have their niche's back.

Yeah I'm hoping the rumours are wrong because I loved Chenkov. Still, I can probably forgive it if I get 3pt Conscripts to work with...

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.

It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.

Yeah pretty much. Options are nice, but it's not heartbreaking or army-nullifying... unlike mycetic spores.

**lilgammer123**

Daston, I dont want to buy a $50 rulebook, a $75 imperial armour book, plus dataslates.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daston, I dont want to buy a $50 rulebook, a $75 imperial armour book, plus dataslates.

**Daston**

Yeah I hear ya and I agree that does suck. Thankfully I already have a copy for my super heavies, could you not photocopy the relivant pages from a friend?

**zoat**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
zoat wrote:
Like it or not I'm getting the book. In fact I already ordered it!

Why?

I spend far too much time on the hobby aspect of 40k. If I don't get the book, what am I to do with all the guard models I have collected and painted over the years?

Errrr........the same as you've been doing up until now?

As dust collectors you mean?

In the long run people are likely to respond badly to insisting on bringing lists from a codex that is actually obsolete. I am a guard player, so for me it was never a question of if, just when.

**Daston**

Yeah I hear ya and I agree that does suck. Thankfully I already have a copy for my super heavies, could you not photocopy the relivant pages from a friend?

**Sir Arun**

snip

**Ailaros**

Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.

How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?

Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...

**ClockworkZion**

I think the real issues isn't that Guard is being screwed by that Tau and Eldar are too good.

**AtoMaki**

Ailaros wrote:
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.

How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?

Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...

CSM? You mean, like, CSM CSM or Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes CSM?

**Vaktathi**

Ailaros wrote:
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.

How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?

Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...

And then you look at event results, especially the Adepticon results, and wonder why they may feel that way

There's some notable problems with each of those books. CSM's are built around a gameplay style more suited to previous editions and have lots of gak mechanics lazily copy-pasted from Fantasy and largely failed to address the complaints of the previous codex, Tyranids are very mono-build oriented in practice and still have lots of "naff" units. DA's essentially got to be "Codex: Space Marines Alpha Test" and their new "unique" units are absurdly fragile. Then we get books like the Tau codex which is exquisitely built to the 6E ruleset and did a very good job of largely making *almost* everything in the codex useful.

I'm not saying each book should be "zomgwtfpowerBOOM", but usually they should get better than the previous incarnation, if nothing else than in edition compatibility and addressing units which do not function effectively, which is not necessarily the case by any means unfortunately. IG look like they'll still retain many of the problems of the previous codex, ineffective RR's and Ogryn, heavy reliance on Vets, etc.

**Sir Arun**

Ailaros wrote:
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.

How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?

Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...

You sure DA players got shafted? I think they came off very well compared to their 4th ed codex. Dakka Banners, 3 deathwing vehicle LRCs profiting from said banners, powerfield libbies, twin-linking turn 1 precision deep striking deathwing terminators, plasma gunthingy raven wing bikers, AV14 land speeders...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:
I think the real issues isn't that Guard is being screwed by that Tau and Eldar are too good.

I think they're on the same power level as Space Marines.

The only reason things are broken are battlebrother rules, but thats a general fault of 6th.

**DanFST**

I won't play anyone in a month or 2 who doesn't use the new IG codex.

I'm excited.

**Sir Arun**

DanFST wrote:
I won't play anyone in a month or 2 who doesn't use the new IG codex.

+1 for your sportsmanship

**UlrikDecado**

DanFST wrote:
I won't play anyone in a month or 2 who doesn't use the new IG codex.

I'm excited.

I dont know...maybe you should allow guy who plays, for example Orks, play without the need for new IG codex.

**Bobthehero**

I though vets still had 3 SW?

**UlrikDecado**

Sir Arun wrote:

1) Vendetta price hike. It was obviously necessary, but right now it is 10 points too much, IMO. But given their spam in the meta, I'm not too peeved about this and can live with it.
2) Chimeras going up in price. I agree that after the Wave Serpent, Chimeras really were one of the most dakka laden dedicated transports in the game, so spamming them (even in 6th ed's hullpoint era) wasnt a bad decision, but was a 10 point increase really necessary? ESPECIALLY when the Inquisition codex still lists them at their original points cost? GW just doesnt seem to be able to make their mind up even within the same edition it seems.
3) Veteran points cost reduction by 10 points, but them only being able to carry 2 special weapons now. Not really a dealbreaker, given how everyone was spamming SW Vets, now they are an option instead of a mandatory must have.

The ugly:

1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Mogul Kamir is gone
4) Bastonne is gone
5) Harker has been nerfed to kingdom come - costs the same, confers relentless to entire veteran squad now (so you can assault after firing those plasma guns I guess? or move and shoot with that 1 heavy weapon which is pretty much the only useful thing here, especially if they're aboard a chimera), and his heavy bolter got rending, but lost his own feel no pain (no biggie), as well as his ability to grant veterans infiltrate, move through cover and stealth (dangit! I LIKED infiltrating one of my veteran squads (preferably the 3 melta one) and also giving them cloaks so they could start the game with 2+ cover (thanks to stealth + cloaks) close to enemy tanks and fry them, with Harker's HB providing anti-infantry support along with the rest of the BS4 lasguns, now this tactic is down the drain)
6) Sly Marbo is gone
7) The Griffon is gone
8) The awesome Colossus is gone
9) The Medusa is gone
10) The Penal Legion is gone
11) The Hydra nerf. Like, seriously. Going from an original 4 twin-linked S7 AP4 shots solid infantry hunter with ignores cover on skimmers moving fast and turboboosting bikes (making it an excellent light vehicle hunter) to being 6th ed FAQ'd to have skyfire (goodbye infantry hunter, but hello flyers) and ignores jink to just 4 tl-S7 AP4 skyfire for a mere 5 points reduction is hard to digest.
12) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit into a complete mess of a unit that is utterly unpredictable and now also only LD8 instead of LD9 for the same points cost.
13) Ogryns didnt get fixed - the lost furious charge for HoW, they lost stubborn (but you can attach commissars and the like to them now without penalty) and they lost their frag grenades so what little use they had as an assault unit is now gone. They gained krak nades, but I see little use for these.
14) Rough Riders barely got fixed (in that the hunting lance now gives +1 attack for laspistol) but did go up by 1 point (11 points now) and in 6th's meta are still too fragile to ever be worth taking (in comparison, look at the ridiculous points reduction bikes and assault marines received in the marine dexes)
15) points cost increase for plasma pistol and power weapons on BS3 / S3 characters from 10 to 15. really, GW?
16) We did not get the Baneblade as a super heavy even though Imperial Knights as super heavy walkers with D strength weapons are out and about.
17) The Taurox. An absolute disappointment. 11/10/10 seriously? That makes it more fragile than a Rhino!!!! And its costlier than a Rhino, to boot.

...and we should buy a codex that also has a silly name on top of all this? Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now. Next codex we could remove the Whirlwind for SM players and see how they react.

Just briefly, I like your "not everything is fethed" attitude

your neutrals - Vendetta nerf is for me positive. Chimera...well, neutral, but I like your analysis

Vets can still take 3 SW, you just need to drop heavy flamer from squad.

your cons
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - I miss those, but didnt see them played. Like really, even the good ones (=not completely useless like Bastonne)...but still, I miss them for the fluff reasons.
6 - He will return. Im sure of it. He must. HE MUST! He is just waiting.
7, 8, 9 - They are in IA books. For me its solid as codex. And to peopla I play with too. DKoK, Elysians...simply a lot of funny stuff to play, I dont bleed here and I hope wise TO wont cut it.
10 - No tears shed. Like, seriously, even Rough Rides has its (wobbly) role, but penal legion were simply unit for nothing. Not conscripts, not footsloggers, nothing.
11 - Heck, I missed the part about no more anti-jink. Are you sure? It would meant there is no need for Hydra, because I can take better counter-flyer combinations.
12 - New Psykers seems great to me.
13 - Ogryns became walking Aegis. Really, the unit is completely redone. IMO still too expensive, but their shield strategy is far from "didnt get fixed". And Nork Deddog can HEADBUTT!

14 - Yeah, still same "meh". Will play them sometimes for fun...when I make my Rouh Riders from Wellingtons hussars...

15 - IMO OK. Im not happy, but with cheaper Vets, Stormies, commisars and doctrines for vets its acceptable. Still, I wont pay 25 pts for Power Fist.
16 - Decision not to involve (probably) LoW into book is...for me strange. But, whatever, Escalation and IA here...still, its is strange.
17 - Taurox will rock, hear my word. I like him already, especially the Prime. He is fast, front armor is just point lower than chimera and he bring hell of firepower. For me its way to make quick strike from reserves, drop scions and make thrust forward. I think that soon Tauroxes will be used a lot...probably in some spam strategy, unfortunately :(

IG players are not shafted

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobthehero wrote:
I though vets still had 3 SW?

They have. Wording is, you can take three if you didnt take the heavy flamer. Otherwise its Heavy flamer and two SW.

**Ailaros**

Sir Arun wrote:You sure DA players got shafted? I think they came off very well compared to their 4th ed codex. Dakka Banners, 3 deathwing vehicle LRCs profiting from said banners, powerfield libbies, twin-linking turn 1 precision deep striking deathwing terminators, plasma gunthingy raven wing bikers, AV14 land speeders...

That's sort of my point. Everyone seems to get angry when their codex comes out and isn't overpowered. I know DA players that complained blue in the face because after all those many years waiting, GW would dare produce a codex that blah, blah, blah.

Just as you're pointing out how DA isn't that bad, no matter what the whiners say, you could make the same argument that AM won't be that bad, no matter what the whiners say.

AtoMaki wrote:CSM? You mean, like, CSM CSM or Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes CSM?

... Because this is what the other side looks like. Are you really saying that CSM is an overpowered codex?

A codex can't both be overpowered and underpowered at the same time.

Or should we have a whine-off to see who's right?

ClockworkZion wrote:I think the real issues isn't that Guard is being screwed by that Tau and Eldar are too good.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean guard should have an overpowered codex. The problem with overpowered codices is overpowered codices, not everyone else who is balanced among themselves.

**Talizvar**

Maybe the evil plan is to get everyone to digital codex's and they can tweak to their hearts content in real time!

Then only the illegal people who made a copy are the only "customers" they get upset (no need for FAQ's!).

Would love to see the Wave Serpent shield shooting get nerfed with no announcements or fanfare.