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 Talys wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


It is an oversized skirmish game. Mechanically it is. There's far too many rules for the size of armies that you play, it's bloated and unwieldy, it either needs to be big armies with simplified rules, or smaller armies with complex rules. Saying the mechanics are different to WMH is a strange argument, the mechanics of WMH are also completely different to infinity, another skirmish game, which is completely different to Malifaux, another skirmish game, etc...

In that case, are you trying to assert that all large scale wargames are just oversized skirmish games? If so, that's fine; I'll just disagree, as I believe that certain games (like WMH or Infinity) would be unplayable, or at the very least very unenjoyable given 100 models vs 100 models. Also, because all of the models are monopose, the table would become extremely repetitive.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Large scale wargames have simpler rules, so the game isn't bloated. 40k has the rules of a skirmish game, but the model count of a large scale wargame.

 Runic wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It's quite funny this "vocal minority" argument. I've yet to see any evidence from the people spouting it so emphatically.

People who spout that the active hence vocal users on the internet make up a majority of wargamers on a global scale are even quite funnier.

Not a majority, just a large enough percentage to cause GWs revenue adjusted for inflation to fall every year for nearly the last 10 years. I'm not sure what universe you live in but here in the real world, that's a problem for any business.

 Korinov wrote:


If you want an "epic battle" go play Epic. Fifty infantrymen, ten bikes and three tanks is not an army. Specially not in a setting where Imperial Guard is said to deploy troops by the millions. 40k has never been more than a skirmish game, it just got incredibly more bloated and oversized than ever in its latest editions. 28mm scale is simply not suited for mass battle games, unless your gaming table is the size of a basketball court.

The reason Epic never took off in my local meta is that it fails at the Rule of Cool. Awesome Epic tabletops don't look anywhere NEAR as impressive as awesome 40k tabletops. At least, I have never seen one. And, because of the scale of the miniatures, you can't really make them awesome. So, it only meets one of my 3 criteria.

 Korinov wrote:


I do not play WM/H, but for the looks of it, it seems to be an skirmish game. A true skirmish game. What 40k was in 2nd edition. Unlike its current iteration which is an oversized and bloated skirmish game with too much special rules it can't handle well.

It is definitely a skirmish game, and it would be much worse than 40k, if you were to try to adapt it to the model count of typical 40k games.

I'd would welcome another awesome, high-model count, impressive scifi miniature wargame. Such a beast does not exist.


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 ImAGeek wrote:
No, that's not what I'm saying. Large scale wargames have simpler rules, so the game isn't bloated. 40k has the rules of a skirmish game, but the model count of a large scale wargame.

To my previous point, there are no other large scale scifi miniature games, whatever you want to call it. If there were, I assure you, I'd be modelling and playing it, in addition to 40k

But really, our group has a lot of fun playing 40k. The general flow of the game is quite simple, and really, it's just a matter of learning special rules. No biggie. Keep in mind also that a lot of the original 40k crowd were AD&D fans -- in fact, I learned of 40k, because I used to read White Dwarf, as an AD&D supplement -- and there never existed a more complicated set of rules than AD&D, where Gary Gygax made a table for everything conceivable, and where every month Dragon Magazine piled on more rules to the game.


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 Toofast wrote:

Not a majority, just a large enough percentage to cause GWs revenue adjusted for inflation to fall every year for nearly the last 10 years. I'm not sure what universe you live in but here in the real world, that's a problem for any business.

When GW's revenue was increasing year over year (for decades, really), there were also very vocal players who piled on about what a horrible game 40k was, how awful GW was, and how it would go bankrupt. Some things never change, and it really doesn't matter if GW's profit doubled next year, or dropped into the red; the folks who wish it would just die would still wish the same

So because people complained when their revenue was increasing YoY, it makes it irrelevant that people complaining now have yearly financial reports to back up their position? Wow, so many logical fallacies there I don't even know where to start.

I remember back in the late nineties we had three stores that all kept themselves afloat on mainly GW products. I mean sure, they all sold other stuff, but you could walk into any of these three stores at almost any time and there would surely be either a 40K or WHFB game going. Fast forward to now, and one of those three stores has gone completely out of business. One still keeps itself afloat on main GW products, but both the owner and his wife work other jobs and pay for a chunk of the store out of pocket. They do it for the community, but I don't know how long that'll last. The other store keeps a bare minimum of GW products in, and mostly makes it's money through board games, MTG, anything WOTC, and the very occasional game of 40K.

I feel that GW is trying to push their fanbase away, though they don't realize it. They try to bring new people in and to keep their old players loyal, but it's mostly through terrible tactics such as anything that has Matt Ward. Don't get me wrong, Grey Knights look so cool and the lore is awesome (my point), but it doesn't fit in, was unnecessary, and breaks the lore. I used to play me some WHFB along with the rest of the community, but then GW started this End Times crap and now we're afraid with where it's going to go. Yeah, there's the option of playing with the older rules after the new ones come out but that shouldn't have to be our option. Now, I used to play 40K and have recently picked it up again with a new army, but I have noticed a trend since the older days. Every time it's a new army that gets boosted to the fore, requiring anyone wanting to play competitively to go pick up this new army. They make no attempt to balance things because they don't care, they just want to sell models. That is how GW thinks: Money. They don't care because they assume they will continue to pick up new players, and that older ones will stay. But the numbers aren't lying. Some of us, like myself, will try to stay because for the most part the lore is awesome and the game is fun, but eventually we'll be pushed away as well.

If GW doesn't change their tactics, which I noticed they are by a recent, massive push in video games, then they're doomed. It might take a decade or two, but it will happen.

GW's implosion is visibly beginning over the last year. I give them 4-5 years at most before they're bought out or reform themselves so heavily they're an entirely different company.

Their current model is unsustainable.

 Toofast wrote:
just a large enough percentage to cause GWs revenue adjusted for inflation to fall every year for nearly the last 10 years.

Since you're talking about parallel universes, I highly doubt the vocal minority on an internet forum has caused a profits drop of tens of millions, which is in essence exactly what you're saying in this sentence word for word. Turn the ten millions into tens of thousands of dollars and we're probably getting close.

( Which is an amount GW makes in a day or two. )

Jaxler wrote:
So, I'm net to 40k, and been here for a few months. I keep seeing these endless complaints about GW, and stuff, and the more I see the more I wonder how this game and GW stay afloat.

The game is horribly balanced from what I see, and things like the new eldar aren't even rare from what I've heard.

The company has people who wright lore do the crunch, and people who do crunch wright lore.

The game keeps getting more and more expensive until large portions of the community leave. Literally most of the people who got me interested in 40K say they stopped playing/buying models because the prices are stupid high. It's like they enjoy killing off their customer base.

They go after fan and community sights, basically alienating more of their customer base.

They act like they have a monopoly when they don't.

They're website is useless, and only works as a marker place.

They release stuff that could have been easily balanced by less than a day's worth of play testing.

Seriously, I don't see why GW hasn't died yet, or at least 40k. It seems like a war game that the company doesn't want to treat like a game, while also having a company that wants to kill the community. How is GW and 40k not dead? They've been doing this for like 10 years. It doesn't make sense to me.

well, it seems obvious to me, they have incredible fluff, several games, the site isn't as useless as you might think, everyone is playing it so more people want to play it, the models are easy to built and look cool, it's not balanced but isn't terribly un-balanced, i mean a DA army could destroy an Eldar army. And it's a great community.

 Toofast wrote:
So because people complained when their revenue was increasing YoY, it makes it irrelevant that people complaining now have yearly financial reports to back up their position? Wow, so many logical fallacies there I don't even know where to start.

Nobody has to back up their position at all. I'm just saying that there are people who don't like GW and don't like 40k, who will have a negative outlook on GW, regardless of their revenue, sales or anything else. There are players who simply have a grudge against GW and would like it to see it fail as a company. For these people, no matter how well GW performs, even if it becomes a billion dollar company, they will STILL never say that GW did something right.

If you want a comparison, just take Apple and Microsoft. There are people who just despise one of these companies or the other (sometimes both), and are extremely vocal about it. But no matter how loud they scream, Microsoft will probably outlive them, as, likely, will Apple. Windows or iOS can't die fast enough for these folks. Just like there are people who wish GW would go bankrupt and 40k put out of its misery so some other magical, awesome, player-friendly company can have a chance to gestate.

The behavior of this group of people is rooted in emotion rather than rational decision-making. Which is fine, and they're allowed to express their opinion.

However, the existence of these folks is not an opinion; it's an observable fact.

There is also a group of people who hold the belief that if GW fails badly enough -- coming close to the flame, but not being enveloped by it -- GW will suddenly see the light, and become some magical, awesome, player-friendly company (with cheaper products). And so they hope, year over year, that GW will do badly enough to realize the error of their ways, but not badly enough to actually go bankrupt. I am pretty sure this is just fanciful thinking.

I have been on the 40k Trukk since pretty much the beginning, and I can say that although the corporate attitude of GW has changed, the tenor 40k has not. It never was a particularly balanced game, it never really made any scientific or logical sense, it never had rules that were simple or straightforward. Just like Gary Gygax's AD&D, we all wondered which parts were scribbled on a dinner napkin, and which parts were written while under the influence of recreational hallucinogens. And yet, for us, it was always a blast and for us, the miniatures and armies were so cool that really, nothing else mattered.

Speaking as someone with a very negative view of GW currently, I absolutely don't want them to fail. I'd like to see them turn things around, and frankly it would be almost sad for them to fail. They're basically an institution in the Wargaming field.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Speaking as someone with a very negative view of GW currently, I absolutely don't want them to fail. I'd like to see them turn things around, and frankly it would be almost sad for them to fail. They're basically an institution in the Wargaming field.

In my opinion, 40k has enough of a die-hard, loyal fanbase that needs not much more than a model and rules treadmill to keep it in business for a pretty long time (no different than Apple die-hards that will keep buying iPhones and iPads every year, even the ones that are virtually identical to their last year's model). The only question is, does it shrink, does it grow, does it bring in new blood, and does it remain relevant?

If GW made certain changes, would those answers be more positive? Would the company be more profitable? Would that be the vision of the company that management sees?

I don't pretend to know the answers.

 Talys wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Talys wrote:
2. If skirmish games are your preference, 40k is not the right game for you.

And what is 40k, after all, if not an oversized sci-fi skirmish game?

No, a game recreating an epic battle is not an oversized skirmish game at all.

I mean, I could go on forever, but I won't. But just look at the mechanics of WM/H compared to 40k -- they are totally different. WM/H rules are not enjoyable if you had 200 points per side. It just isn't designed for that. 40k is playable at low point values (eg Kill Team), but other games with better mechanics are simply superior at that scale.

Look at real life: two elite squads fighting in city ruins (alone) would be totally different than two battalions advancing upon each other in the same city ruins. For one, you want need exceptional heroes; for the other, you want regimented discipline.

You can't write a tabletop game (one set of rules) that's simultaneously as efficient at moving 75-150 models as is efficient for commanding 10-20 models. I mean, that's just common sense.

I hate retro-future settings to ever call them "epic'. The only thing epic about 40K is the price.

To be honest, I'd give me some measure of satisfaction to see GW go out of business permanently and have the IP passed on to someone competent.

 Runic wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
just a large enough percentage to cause GWs revenue adjusted for inflation to fall every year for nearly the last 10 years.

Since you're talking about parallel universes, I highly doubt the vocal minority on an internet forum has caused a profits drop of tens of millions, which is in essence exactly what you're saying in this sentence word for word. Turn the ten millions into tens of thousands of dollars and we're probably getting close.

( Which is an amount GW makes in a day or two. )

1. You do know that profit and revenue are 2 completely different things, right?
2. If unhappy customers don't cause a drop in sales, what does? The weather?
3. A quick glance at GWs past 2 yearly financial reports would show you that, adjusted for inflation, their REVENUE has dropped tens of millions of dollars.

Revenue in 2013 - £134.6 million
Revenue in 2014 - £123.5 million
£11.1 million drop in revenue. Converted to USD, that's just shy of $20 million. Keep in mind that this sharp decline in revenue included imperial knights and SM codex, 2 of GWs best selling products.

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, possibly the parallel universe you speak of. The half year results for 2014 aren't looking much better.
Half year 2012 - £67.5 million
Half year 2013 - £60.5 million
Half year 2014 - £56.5 million

Hmm, I'm seeing a pattern here...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this might help
Profit - the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something
Revenue - income, especially when of a company or organization

How does 40k stay alive?

In Australia it simply doesn't. 7th edition got outsold 7-1 by Dystopian Wars 2nd ed. GW sales have fallen to 10-15% of the total revenue* of our largest FLGS and are still falling.

GW has done this to themselves here by gaking on us with absurd prices and anti consumer practices, the same practices and prices that are now becoming more and more common in the American market, which they seem to be loosing a lot of ground in as well.

40k stays alive because GW are not working quite fast enough to kill it.

 jonolikespie wrote:
How does 40k stay alive?

In Australia it simply doesn't. 7th edition got outsold 7-1 by Dystopian Wars 2nd ed. GW sales have fallen to 10-15% of the total revenue* of our largest FLGS and are still falling.

GW has done this to themselves here by gaking on us with absurd prices and anti consumer practices, the same practices and prices that are now becoming more and more common in the American market, which they seem to be loosing a lot of ground in as well.

40k stays alive because GW are not working quite fast enough to kill it.

Good to hear. Couldn't happen to a nicer company.

 Toofast wrote:


1. You do know that profit and revenue are 2 completely different things, right?
2. If unhappy customers don't cause a drop in sales, what does? The weather?
3. A quick glance at GWs past 2 yearly financial reports would show you that, adjusted for inflation, their REVENUE has dropped tens of millions of dollars.

1. I do, and I originally talked about profit, you switched over to revenue. Shall I inquire if you know the difference between profit and revenue just the same?
2. You don't know any other reason that might cause a drop in both revenue and profit than unhappy customers? Oh wow. I wonder if there's a point to even explaining.
3. And so has their net profit.

And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

In any case, I find you a bit odd. You talk about crushing other people in tournaments with your new and shiny Eldar, and at the same time you flame GW and the game in vaurious posts. What's up with that? Just a side question. You can also turn off your offensive tone if capable, it does nothing aside from collecting reports.

I quite like the fluff and the *idea* of the game, even if the execution is messy and the rules over-complex.

The models can be fun and are very flexible in many cases (multi-pose and so on).

This is why I buy from discount retailers (who in turn buy from GW). GW still make money from the sales and I get my models. I don't expect I am alone in this, and so GW persists.

 Runic wrote:

 Toofast wrote:


1. You do know that profit and revenue are 2 completely different things, right?
2. If unhappy customers don't cause a drop in sales, what does? The weather?
3. A quick glance at GWs past 2 yearly financial reports would show you that, adjusted for inflation, their REVENUE has dropped tens of millions of dollars.

1. I do, and I originally talked about profit, you switched over to revenue. Shall I inquire if you know the difference between profit and revenue just the same?
2. You don't know any other reason that might cause a drop in both revenue and profit than unhappy customers? Oh wow. I wonder if there's a point to even explaining.
3. And so has their net profit.

And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

In any case, I find you a bit odd. You talk about crushing other people in tournaments with your new and shiny Eldar, and at the same time you flame GW and the game in vaurious posts. What's up with that? Just a side question. You can also turn off your offensive tone if capable, it does nothing aside from collecting reports.

The vocal minority might be the only ones complaining on the internet but their opinions reflect a much larger group that isn't a minority - it's the majority of their customers.

10penceman wrote:Going to answer this one because there is nothing else like it you may claim all these games are better and such and such but they are simply pretenders to thevthrone. No game has the back ground scope of 40k. No game has the balance between detail and quantity it does. More importantly lots of model designs something new all the time and its not slowing down that's why it won't die simple variety.

Battletech has a greater scope of background than 40K. It also does not regurgitate the same story 80 million times and call it new. Of course the premise is always the same, one royal house/clan is always trying to take out another. Factions have been destroyed, and it is looking like there may be another casualty or two in the future.

The game is far more detailed than 40K also, but it is a skirmish game. It does have a mass battle version with different rules, that appears to be growing in popularity also.

There are new models coming out every month or so, and they are usable by everyone. Sure, the scale precludes the excessive amounts of crap....i mean detail that GW models have on them, but they are decent models, most of the time.

The game has a much better balance to it overall, yes there are issues, but not as horrendous as GW games have.

There is not as much "variety" in 40K either. When a decent portion of your range is the same model with different weapons..... At least Battletech has over 200 unique models, just in Mechs, that is not including the Fighters, tanks, helicopters, infantry, or wet navy stuff. Then of course there is the space warship stuff, and dropships.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing 40K, but the balance has been what is slowly making me not care anymore. The stuff you claim is also quite false. Also, from what I can tell, the Warmahordes game is getting a decent amount of background now too. So every thing in your list is not only already false, but it is eroding with newer games as well.

What makes 40K most played by me, is that finding local Battletech players is difficult.

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

 clamclaw wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

People who have been complaining about the game generally aren't even power gamers or people who try to maximise their lists, generally it's casual/theme/fluff players, because they're the ones screwed over most by the crappy rules. Competitive players will just play what's competitive.

 clamclaw wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

The vocal minority that complain on the forums are currently a direct reflex of the silent majority that simply drop the game and walk away. GW's own reports show this.

GW's reports do not indicate people walking away from the game, nor does a vocal internet minority reflect a majority.

Not buying doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer. Buying less doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.
Buying used goods doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.

I'm doing all of the above in turns currently. And I'm a satisfied customer.

Infact, most likely the majority of GW's customers are satisfied instead.

 Runic wrote:
GW's reports do not indicate people walking away from the game, nor does a vocal internet minority reflect a majority.

Not buying doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer. Buying less doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.
Buying used goods doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.

I'm doing all of the above in turns currently. And I'm a satisfied customer.

Infact, most likely the majority of GW's customers are satisfied instead.

Those satisfied customers must all be Eldar players!
Conspiracy!

Runic wrote: (snip)....I highly doubt the vocal minority on an internet forum has caused a profits drop of tens of millions, which is in essence exactly what you're saying in this sentence word for word. Turn the ten millions into tens of thousands of dollars and we're probably getting close.

( Which is an amount GW makes in a day or two. )

No, my group leaving the game cost GW 10's of thousands of dollars. A group of 15 players with model collections running into the 150k to 200k points worth for our senior players and the newer players having at least 40k points worth.
"We" were collecting 10's of thousands of dollars worth each year .... until 6th and 7th editions.

This is just one group, there are many more. Enough to offset any gains from new players brought into the community.

clamclaw wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

This...a thousand times this, is what is wrong with the community and why players are steadily leaving.
People who insist that we are "powerless" to affect positive changes. That we should shut up and just keep buying whatever crap GW puts out. Attitudes like this are driving just as many people away from 40K as GW's recent policies have.

This delusion that this is an "internet only" problem of just a few malcontents is ridiculous.
Some of us travel extensively and have witnessed first hand, on a nationwide scale, the damage that GW has done to themselves, the 40K community and tabletop miniature gaming in general.

And, fyi, None of our group played tournaments. We just hated the new rules.

Edit for spacing

 Runic wrote:
GW's reports do not indicate people walking away from the game, nor does a vocal internet minority reflect a majority.

Not buying doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer. Buying less doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.
Buying used goods doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.

I'm doing all of the above in turns currently. And I'm a satisfied customer.

Infact, most likely the majority of GW's customers are satisfied instead.

In fact, every month, millions of dollars are spent by customers around the world on GW products. I'll bet that the majority of these people are actually happily buying product, rather than, say, being forced to do so with a scatter laser pointed at their head, or because their profession demands it, or because of some reason other than genuinely wanting whatever it is GW is selling

You also make a great point, Runic, that just because someone doesn't buy stuff doesn't mean that they're unsatisfied. If a player is happy playing their Ultramarines, they would have not purchased any release last year. That doesn't mean that they're unhappy with the game or hobby. For all the groaning that GW releases things "too rapidly", if you only play 1 faction, it's really quite long between the time that you get new toys.


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 Captain Avatar wrote:

People who insist that we are "powerless" to affect positive changes. That we should shut up and just keep buying whatever crap GW puts out. Attitudes like this are driving just as many people away from 40K as GW's recent policies have.

This delusion that this is an "internet only" problem of just a few malcontents is ridiculous.
Some of us travel extensively and have witnessed first hand, on a nationwide scale, the damage that GW has done to themselves, the 40K community and tabletop miniature gaming in general.

Of course, if you're not enjoying 40k, you should stop spending money on it. That's just common sense.

However, voting with your wallet won't necessarily effect change. For example: just because you stop buying burgers and fries because they're unhealthy doesn't make them get produced with any less cholesterol. Likewise, GW will make less money with each lost customer, but that doesn't mean they want to be something other than what they are.

The difference between the real world and the Internet is that in the real world, most people go do something else and don't really think too much about it anymore. On the Internet, people gripe about it for years after, apparently, which is something I really don't understand, because if I stopped playing 40k, I would not be visiting 40k forums.

Id argue that the increase of criticism on line is indicative of a growing malcontent among the general player populace. Especially coupled with the declining revenue.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

People who insist that we are "powerless" to affect positive changes. That we should shut up and just keep buying whatever crap GW puts out. Attitudes like this are driving just as many people away from 40K as GW's recent policies have.

I wonder if there's actually anyone who thinks what you describe here, or if you among a few others like to make it up. I atleast haven't seen anyone saying anyone should continue buying and shut up.

Stating that a small fraction of the community has no real power over things on a larger scale doesn't translate into that. It translates into a small fraction of the community having no real power over things on a larger scale.

You can make a stand and not spend, and that is fine asfar as I'm concerned atleast.

And just like Talys says, I have a lot of friends who have spent way less during the last year than at the launch of 7th edition. They have the things they need. They do occasionally make small additions. They are not unsatisfied customers or leaving the game. Instead they are satisfied, actively playing the game and having fun with it.

Maybe the argument of someone not buying/buying less translating into an unsatisfied customer/leaving the game could finally be dealt a killing blow because it's such a fail.

I still keep buying stuff. I still keep complaining. But overall, I'm enjoying myself more than I'm complaining. And there are many complaints.

Amayasu wrote:
Because every gaming system on the planet has a negative and vocal minority. And a minority scales with the size of the player base.

And coupled with the fact that that vocal minority continues to pay for and play the game means everything that comes out of their mouths is wasted.

Business don't care what you say, they care what you do ( or more specifically, don't do, as in "don't use their products").

People like, buy, and play 40k. Whining about it is pointless and only wastes everyone's time. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.