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WayneTheGame wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Not an offense, but a serious question. Why do people bother "checking in" to 40k even after they've quit for 3+ years, some of you said up to 15? I quit WoW years ago because it looked like it was going in a boring direction and I haven't checked in since.

I totally understand if 40k isn't your thing, but especially for you who checked out 5+ years ago, why bother to check in when it's obvious the game probably won't change if it hasnt after all this time?

Hope that they get a clue. Like I said, I *want* to play again. I've come really close to ordering a couple hundred bucks of stuff. I know I could get games. But I want to make sure the game is worth my time. Call it a vain hope that some day GW wakes up, looks at their dropping sales and says "What the feth have we been doing? We need to fix this the right way"

Eh, I can understand that. I guess its just that when I quit a game, I usually quit it for good. That and sadly I don't see GW having any revelations anytime soon

 jreilly89 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Not an offense, but a serious question. Why do people bother "checking in" to 40k even after they've quit for 3+ years, some of you said up to 15? I quit WoW years ago because it looked like it was going in a boring direction and I haven't checked in since.

I totally understand if 40k isn't your thing, but especially for you who checked out 5+ years ago, why bother to check in when it's obvious the game probably won't change if it hasnt after all this time?

Hope that they get a clue. Like I said, I *want* to play again. I've come really close to ordering a couple hundred bucks of stuff. I know I could get games. But I want to make sure the game is worth my time. Call it a vain hope that some day GW wakes up, looks at their dropping sales and says "What the feth have we been doing? We need to fix this the right way"

Eh, I can understand that. I guess its just that when I quit a game, I usually quit it for good. That and sadly I don't see GW having any revelations anytime soon

Neither do I

 clamclaw wrote:

I've also tried to figure out why people who do not play and seem to only gripe about 40K spend so much time on forums for it, seems like a waste of time to me. I don't like Bolt Action or Flames of War, so I spend 0 time paying them any heed.

I'm an irish guy living abroad in the uk. Just because Im over here instead of over there doesn't stop me being interested in the comings and goings of the old country, or my home town. I still follow irish news both national and local, I keep an eye on the current affairs and I stay in touch with my mates from my hometown so I know what's going on.

It's the same principle for 40K boards. Playing the game is not a prerequisite for having an opinion. 40k is a setting, and one that people can be interested in in any number of ways. I don't play the table top game, but not playing doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, or a desire to stay in the loop. I follow all the football, not just *my* team. For some, they retain their interest in the lore. For others, modelling. For me, I retain my interest in the community and what it has to say, the corporation itself and it's decisions, and in the general state of affairs. But mainly in tgr people. Essentially, it's a topic of interest to me. 40k is a fairly big part of the gaming world, and gw is big player, and it's where a lot of us came from, so it's only natural to want to stay in touch and stay in the loop. If gw do good things, I can comment. If thry do bad things, I can also comment.

Spending 0 time paying people with a different pov 'any heed' does nothing but isolate you from the point of view of that section of the community. It's like an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. There is no point pretending people don't have legitimate grievances, and there is less point in refusing to try to understand them. Can things get too toxic? Yes. Could there be less negativity? Yes. I think a lot of people are all too willing to complain, and far fewer are willing to do anything about it to fix 'their' game. I think if a tenth of the energy that went into complaining went into positive and proactive endeavours to build the game and community the want to be a part of, it would be a better community. But people are nonetheless pissed off. They're entitled to say their piece. There is no smoke without fire.

Deadnight wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

I've also tried to figure out why people who do not play and seem to only gripe about 40K spend so much time on forums for it, seems like a waste of time to me. I don't like Bolt Action or Flames of War, so I spend 0 time paying them any heed.

I'm an irish guy living abroad in the uk. Just because Im over here instead of over there doesn't stop me being interested in the comings and goings of the old country, or my home town. I still follow irish news both national and local, I keep an eye on the current affairs and I stay in touch with my mates from my hometown so I know what's going on.

It's the same principle for 40K boards. Playing the game is not a prerequisite for having an opinion. 40k is a setting, and one that people can be interested in in any number of ways. I don't play the table top game, but not playing doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, or a desire to stay in the loop. I follow all the football, not just *my* team. For some, they retain their interest in the lore. For others, modelling. For me, I retain my interest in the community and what it has to say, the corporation itself and it's decisions, and in the general state of affairs. But mainly in tgr people. Essentially, it's a topic of interest to me. 40k is a fairly big part of the gaming world, and gw is big player, and it's where a lot of us came from, so it's only natural to want to stay in touch and stay in the loop. If gw do good things, I can comment. If thry do bad things, I can also comment.

Spending 0 time paying people with a different pov 'any heed' does nothing but isolate you from the point of view of that section of the community. It's like an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. There is no point pretending people don't have legitimate grievances, and there is less point in refusing to try to understand them. Can things get too toxic? Yes. Could there be less negativity? Yes. I think a lot of people are all too willing to complain, and far fewer are willing to do anything about it to fix 'their' game. I think if a tenth of the energy that went into complaining went into positive and proactive endeavours to build the game and community the want to be a part of, it would be a better community. But people are nonetheless pissed off. They're entitled to say their piece. There is no smoke without fire.

I completely agree with pretty much everything you're saying, in particular the last bit regarding the community and it's approach to the game. I've mentioned before there are likely better ways to go about discussing and actually trying to solve some of the issues with 40K and GW in general, and I'm all for that. It's the toxic and constantly negative attitudes seen in some areas that's disappointing.

 clamclaw wrote:
. It's the toxic and constantly negative attitudes seen in some areas that's disappointing.

So how many times do I have to kick you in the nuts before you get negative?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
. It's the toxic and constantly negative attitudes seen in some areas that's disappointing.

So how many times do I have to kick you in the nuts before you get negative?

Give him time azreal. within two editions, he'll have lost all hope in gw, and seen through the charade to the less than glamorous reality and he'll be with us, riding a warhorse of the gwpocalypse as well. or at the very least, he'll have a donkey...

Thing is, from my pov, regarding negativity, I can only do so much negativity. I Can't do all the negativity all the time. I'm generally in agreement with everything you have to say, but given the choice between having a rant on dakka, or being pragmatic and proactive with my gaming buddies, and negotiating/building games with them that make sense, I'll go with the latter. I get more enjoyment out of being creative at the end of the day. I don't hang around with negative people in real life, I'll be damned if I take the attitude and embrace it. I walked down that road before, and if nearly killed me.

But yeah, when it comes to corporate decisions, gw will get both barrels every time

I almost view some of the negative posters as jilted ex-lovers. They had a passionate relationship with 40K for a while, then one day, they walked in to their local gaming store only to find 40K in the arms of another gamer. The breakup was messy to say the least, but like many a jilted ex, they still stalk their former love, keeping tabs on it, quick to proclaim their hatred for 40K and everything it stands for, but secretly pining for the day they can be together again. Sure, they'll parade their new loves, such as Bolt Action or Warmahordes, in front of 40k in an attempt to make it jealous, but deep in the back of their mind, they know they would drop them all just to have 40K back in their arms like it USED to be.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

I've also tried to figure out why people who do not play and seem to only gripe about 40K spend so much time on forums for it, seems like a waste of time to me. I don't like Bolt Action or Flames of War, so I spend 0 time paying them any heed.

I'm an irish guy living abroad in the uk. Just because Im over here instead of over there doesn't stop me being interested in the comings and goings of the old country, or my home town. I still follow irish news both national and local, I keep an eye on the current affairs and I stay in touch with my mates from my hometown so I know what's going on.

It's the same principle for 40K boards. Playing the game is not a prerequisite for having an opinion. 40k is a setting, and one that people can be interested in in any number of ways. I don't play the table top game, but not playing doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, or a desire to stay in the loop. I follow all the football, not just *my* team. For some, they retain their interest in the lore. For others, modelling. For me, I retain my interest in the community and what it has to say, the corporation itself and it's decisions, and in the general state of affairs. But mainly in tgr people. Essentially, it's a topic of interest to me. 40k is a fairly big part of the gaming world, and gw is big player, and it's where a lot of us came from, so it's only natural to want to stay in touch and stay in the loop. If gw do good things, I can comment. If thry do bad things, I can also comment.

Spending 0 time paying people with a different pov 'any heed' does nothing but isolate you from the point of view of that section of the community. It's like an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. There is no point pretending people don't have legitimate grievances, and there is less point in refusing to try to understand them. Can things get too toxic? Yes. Could there be less negativity? Yes. I think a lot of people are all too willing to complain, and far fewer are willing to do anything about it to fix 'their' game. I think if a tenth of the energy that went into complaining went into positive and proactive endeavours to build the game and community the want to be a part of, it would be a better community. But people are nonetheless pissed off. They're entitled to say their piece. There is no smoke without fire.

But do you repeatedly write into the Irish newspapers' Letters to the Editor and proclaim how the UK is so much better than Ireland will ever be and everybody currently living in Ireland should wake up, come to their senses, and move to the UK?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I almost view some of the negative posters as jilted ex-lovers. They had a passionate relationship with 40K for a while, then one day, they walked in to their local gaming store only to find 40K in the arms of another gamer. The breakup was messy to say the least, but like many a jilted ex, they still stalk their former love, keeping tabs on it, quick to proclaim their hatred for 40K and everything it stands for, but secretly pining for the day they can be together again. Sure, they'll parade their new loves, such as Bolt Action or Warmahordes, in front of 40k in an attempt to make it jealous, but deep in the back of their mind, they know they would drop them all just to have 40K back in their arms like it USED to be.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it

Said jokingly but I think that's pretty much how I feel. I mean, I pay Warmachine. I like Warmachine. But I'd play 40k instead if I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of at every step of the way by GW. It's the combination of awful rules and high prices and no balance and pushing the miniatures over the game.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I almost view some of the negative posters as jilted ex-lovers. They had a passionate relationship with 40K for a while, then one day, they walked in to their local gaming store only to find 40K in the arms of another gamer. The breakup was messy to say the least, but like many a jilted ex, they still stalk their former love, keeping tabs on it, quick to proclaim their hatred for 40K and everything it stands for, but secretly pining for the day they can be together again. Sure, they'll parade their new loves, such as Bolt Action or Warmahordes, in front of 40k in an attempt to make it jealous, but deep in the back of their mind, they know they would drop them all just to have 40K back in their arms like it USED to be.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it

Said jokingly but I think that's pretty much how I feel. I mean, I pay Warmachine. I like Warmachine. But I'd play 40k instead if I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of at every step of the way by GW. It's the combination of awful rules and high prices and no balance and pushing the miniatures over the game.

But what edition was that ever NOT the case with 40K? Rogue Trader? Nope, it didn't even know what it wanted to be back then. 2nd Edition? Rules bloat and broken codexes started here. 3rd-5th? All three editions had their problems and fair share of broken armies. 6th-7th? Same trend.

GW products have always been priced at a premium, ALWAYS! GW has always been about pushing models off of shelves, ALWAYS! Warhammer was created as a means to sell models, and it remains so.

The only thing that is truly different now then "the way things used to be" is the level of player support GW shows, and I completely understand the frustration with that. Scarce and largely useless FAQs, WD going from a great magazine filled with fluff, rules, terrain/painting tutorials, and battle reports to being largely a new release showcase, no real communication with the player base (although, would YOU want to be in charge of that thankless job?), no official tournament support, all of those things can leave fans of the game feeling a bit cold. Of the myriad complaints I read, this one is really the only one that can be said to have been better in the past. Balance issues and broken armies, these are things that have been a part of 40K since day one and will likely continue to be so long into the future.

Deadnight wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
. It's the toxic and constantly negative attitudes seen in some areas that's disappointing.

So how many times do I have to kick you in the nuts before you get negative?

Give him time azreal. within two editions, he'll have lost all hope in gw, and seen through the charade to the less than glamorous reality and he'll be with us, riding a warhorse of the gwpocalypse as well. or at the very least, he'll have a donkey...

Thing is, from my pov, regarding negativity, I can only do so much negativity. I Can't do all the negativity all the time. I'm generally in agreement with everything you have to say, but given the choice between having a rant on dakka, or being pragmatic and proactive with my gaming buddies, and negotiating/building games with them that make sense, I'll go with the latter. I get more enjoyment out of being creative at the end of the day. I don't hang around with negative people in real life, I'll be damned if I take the attitude and embrace it. I walked down that road before, and if nearly killed me.

But yeah, when it comes to corporate decisions, gw will get both barrels every time

Eh, I've been with 40K since 3rd. Though I mainly focus on modeling and fluffly lists than competitive games, so I suppose a lot of the issues people find with broken units go around me.

I'll by no means defend all of GW's actions, they make some pants-on-head stupid decisions for sure. But some of the venom people spit at GW is intense, it's like, GW is a business. They're not hear to listen to each and every persons gripes. They want to make that sweet plastic crack monies. The game seems to be going a more casual route (read: sell models / less rules) and I'm just okay with that.

And the ex-lover analogy is fantastic You know they treated you bad... but with rose tinted glasses you remember the good times! When GW used to romance you on sweet dates! And hold your hand through the battlefield! But now they just spit in your face and ask if you like it...

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

But do you repeatedly write into the Irish newspapers' Letters to the Editor and proclaim how the UK is so much better than Ireland will ever be and everybody currently living in Ireland should wake up, come to their senses, and move to the UK?

Letters to the editor? How cute. There's other ways of communicating.

But in real life conversations, and Interactions, Yeah, I do, actually. And I'm far from the only one. I frequently chat to other diaspora, and folks back home when I'm home as to how much I enjoy living in the uk. It comes up quite often, since almost every second person of my generation has upped sticks and moved abroad. Sons and daughters coming home at Xmas from godknowswhere and waiting at the airport for them is our new xmas tradition. I frequently tell them of the better opportunities, and the better quality of life I have over here, that moving to scotland was literally the best decision of my life. I've had folks visit and say that they get it, when they see where I live, and why I say the things I say. They also agree with me that as much as we complain over here in the uk, theyre still better than back home, there is a reason I'm not the only irish person to move over either. My parents still tell me thry don't want me back As opportunities are so limited.

And if you want irish people to moan, just say 'something sonething economy, mumble mumble bloody bankers'. Thing is, they get it. like I said, moving abroad is the best decision of my life. Damn straight I'm gonna tell them about it and encourage them to move over. Worst case scenario is there's more people wearing the green when we beat the bloody English at the rugby!

 clamclaw wrote:

Eh, I've been with 40K since 3rd. Though I mainly focus on modeling and fluffly lists than competitive games, so I suppose a lot of the issues people find with broken units go around me.

Same here, actually. Thing is, my mates who played played at the competitive end of the spectrum. So I saw all the problems first hand and thry eventually burned me out of the hobby altogether. Because the issues don't affect,you doesn't mean there aren't issues, and that they really do get in some people's way.

 clamclaw wrote:

I'll by no means defend all of GW's actions, they make some pants-on-head stupid decisions for sure. But some of the venom people spit at GW is intense, it's like, GW is a business. They're not hear to listen to each and every persons gripes. They want to make that sweet plastic crack monies. The game seems to be going a more casual route (read: sell models / less rules) and I'm just okay with that.

ultimately, companies live and die by their customers or lack of them, and gw don't do a good job of listening, placating, humouring or pleasing theirs - hence so many ex players with gripes. Should they listen to every single gripe? No, but when you zoom out a bit, and see the trends and hot topics, you see something Is amiss. but if they're here to sell plastic soldiers for moneys, why are they doing it in such a hamfisted and counter productive manner? Sure, they're a business. But they're a badly run business that could be so much more than what it actually is.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I almost view some of the negative posters as jilted ex-lovers. They had a passionate relationship with 40K for a while, then one day, they walked in to their local gaming store only to find 40K in the arms of another gamer. The breakup was messy to say the least, but like many a jilted ex, they still stalk their former love, keeping tabs on it, quick to proclaim their hatred for 40K and everything it stands for, but secretly pining for the day they can be together again. Sure, they'll parade their new loves, such as Bolt Action or Warmahordes, in front of 40k in an attempt to make it jealous, but deep in the back of their mind, they know they would drop them all just to have 40K back in their arms like it USED to be.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it

Said jokingly but I think that's pretty much how I feel. I mean, I pay Warmachine. I like Warmachine. But I'd play 40k instead if I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of at every step of the way by GW. It's the combination of awful rules and high prices and no balance and pushing the miniatures over the game.

But what edition was that ever NOT the case with 40K? Rogue Trader? Nope, it didn't even know what it wanted to be back then. 2nd Edition? Rules bloat and broken codexes started here. 3rd-5th? All three editions had their problems and fair share of broken armies. 6th-7th? Same trend.

GW products have always been priced at a premium, ALWAYS! GW has always been about pushing models off of shelves, ALWAYS! Warhammer was created as a means to sell models, and it remains so.

The only thing that is truly different now then "the way things used to be" is the level of player support GW shows, and I completely understand the frustration with that. Scarce and largely useless FAQs, WD going from a great magazine filled with fluff, rules, terrain/painting tutorials, and battle reports to being largely a new release showcase, no real communication with the player base (although, would YOU want to be in charge of that thankless job?), no official tournament support, all of those things can leave fans of the game feeling a bit cold. Of the myriad complaints I read, this one is really the only one that can be said to have been better in the past. Balance issues and broken armies, these are things that have been a part of 40K since day one and will likely continue to be so long into the future.

Perhaps you're right, but it didn't feel as bad. I had no problem spending money when I was younger on 40k. Now I look at the prices and are like how the hell are they charging that much, yet now I work a good job and make enough money. It's not even the prices per se, I frequently spend $100-200 a month on Warmachine figures, but I feel I get a lot more value for my money there due to how things are costed and how much a unit box is worth in the game.

It might all be perception, but it still largely feels like the game today is nothing like the game before, even if it was fairly crazy back then.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Perhaps you're right, but it didn't feel as bad. I had no problem spending money when I was younger on 40k. Now I look at the prices and are like how the hell are they charging that much, yet now I work a good job and make enough money. It's not even the prices per se, I frequently spend $100-200 a month on Warmachine figures, but I feel I get a lot more value for my money there due to how things are costed and how much a unit box is worth in the game.

It might all be perception, but it still largely feels like the game today is nothing like the game before, even if it was fairly crazy back then.

I agree with you. The more money I make, the more loathe I am to spend it on GW products as the value just isn't there for me anymore. Just think of the people who purchased 4 or 5 Wraithknights and now the silly thing's a LoW. GW has a tendency to invalidate units with "updates" so that the new shiny gets sold whereas PP pretty much maintains unit viability while adding more variety into the game. I am just unable to get my regular gaming buddies into WM/H so I'm stuck with 40K if I want to wargame with the little hobby time that I have available.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Not an offense, but a serious question. Why do people bother "checking in" to 40k even after they've quit for 3+ years, some of you said up to 15? I quit WoW years ago because it looked like it was going in a boring direction and I haven't checked in since.

I totally understand if 40k isn't your thing, but especially for you who checked out 5+ years ago, why bother to check in when it's obvious the game probably won't change if it hasnt after all this time?

In my case, keeping tabs on the comedy value of GW's latest wacky antics is more entertaining than playing the game ever was. Like the Total War game that will showcase the Fantasy setting.....that they just blew up whoops. I kind of want to see just how absurdly far they can go in the current direction before the floor falls out from under them.

 Toofast wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:
Mainly because all of this negativity is a very, very vocal minority. Plenty of people are playing 40k and having a blast. Same logic as how a lot of people won't write a good review for a restaurant, but if they feel the need to write a bad review they shout it from the rooftops.

It may be a minority, but it's a large enough minority to cause GWs revenue to drop every year the past 5+ years. 49% is still a minority, but if 49% of your customers are unhappy, it isn't magically less of a problem than if 51% of your customers were unhappy. The "vocal minority" excuse gets thrown around almost as much as "forge the narrative" and "beer and pretzels", it's also just as poor of an argument.

Roll Tide!

I just had to say that. Anyhow, I think 40k owes a lot to the expansiveness of the setting and the rabid-ness of old fans. They don't have the safe monopoly they used to, and the business tactics they're using at the moment are a little unethical and outdated, but the new models are consistently cool as heck and I for one am too invested both monetarily in the hobby and emotionally in the story to quit as a result of these practices.If they ever get bad enough for me to lose the desire to spend money there, so be it; I'll probably still play with friends. They're testing their fanbase's patience a bit but with careful shopping I still get entertainment value proportional to the money I spend with them.

 Runic wrote:
GW's reports do not indicate people walking away from the game, nor does a vocal internet minority reflect a majority.

Not buying doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer. Buying less doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.
Buying used goods doesn't translate into an unsatisfied customer.

A "satisfied customer" who buys used from a third party, or doesn't buy, isn't functionally a customer anymore.


Anyway, Peregrine nailed the answer to the OP right on the first page like 5 posts in: they're coasting on years of momentum.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
like many a jilted ex, they still stalk their former love, keeping tabs on it, quick to proclaim their hatred for 40K and everything it stands for, but secretly pining for the day they can be together again.

I think the problem is that they don't understand that their ex-lover was never their lover; they were always in it for the money. This is the source of the disconnect.

People dream that in the distant past (2nd edition, 3rd edition, 5th edition, or usually the edition when their army was at its most powerful) it wasn't about the money. But it always was. And of course now that GW is a publicly-quoted company, the need for £££ and short-termism is, in reality, even more acute.

The most constructive way forward would be for the disenchanted to group together and re-write the rules. Maybe even pay someone to do it via Kickstarter. Would be great, wouldn't it? But we know that here, as in life, some people prefer complaining about an issue to doing something about it.

It was about the money, but it actually seemed like they cared about their customers back then. They had forums, their Web site had all kinds of painting and modeling articles, white dwarf was more than a weekly ad you had to pay for, they had a facebook, they ran tournaments with prize support, they had the skulls program, favorable terms with retailers encouraged them to stock GW product and the rules weren't perfect but they had less random and more balance. Now, well they uh...make the "best miniatures in the world", some of the worst rules and have raised the price 3x the rate of inflation while taking away all those great services they used to provide. It might have been all about the money before, they just didn't go out of their way to make it painfully obvious that it was all about the money. They actually had some pretense of giving a feth about the customers and their experience with the product after the purchase.

 Toofast wrote:
It was about the money, but it actually seemed like they cared about their customers back then. They had forums, their Web site had all kinds of painting and modeling articles, white dwarf was more than a weekly ad you had to pay for, they had a facebook, they ran tournaments with prize support, they had the skulls program, favorable terms with retailers encouraged them to stock GW product and the rules weren't perfect but they had less random and more balance. Now, well they uh...make the "best miniatures in the world", some of the worst rules and have raised the price 3x the rate of inflation while taking away all those great services they used to provide. It might have been all about the money before, they just didn't go out of their way to make it painfully obvious that it was all about the money. They actually had some pretense of giving a feth about the customers and their experience with the product after the purchase.

This. I know Privateer, for example, are after my money, but I get the impression they want me to help me have fun with their games and that they like their community. With GW, the greed may or may not be bigger, but it's far more off-puttingly naked. They don't seem to see any value in making customers feel like more more than a tiresome necessity that must be dealt with to get hold of money.

Every company is about making a profit, but some decide that maybe treating your customers with respect will help their product.

Wyrd Games put out an amazing skirmish game ruleset, that is very balanced despite having incredibly unique crews across factions.

They tell us about what they are planning on doing and give us information on what is coming up in the next month or two.

They playtest their rules, and while they don't just stupidly take the forum-posters opinions as absolute truth, they do listen to it, so if someone finds a way to break the game, they fix it.

They release FAQs that fix any holes they have missed.
They have people from their office on the forums talking to us and they even support things like writing contests with prizes.

I feel like they want me to enjoy their game. GW is the opposite of everything I mentioned above.

They sit at the top of their tower and vomit rules over the side. They are too far above us to hear anything we say and can't be bothered to give us any information as to what is inside their heads. I have never experienced a company less transparent than GW.

But yeah, I can't deny that the GW plastic kits are fantastic.

40k is an amazing game, has brilliant quality of models, rulebooks and all the other stuff like rulebooks, supplements, novels, games etc are really, really good.

I absolutely love everything about it. I'm sure the reason why it and GW haven't died is that despite some people complaining, the majority like me absolutely love it all. More people feel the need to complain about things and give negative reviews, whereas people that like things are less inclined to make the effort to shout about how much they enjoy it.

For me, 40k gets better and better and the amount of people still playing it speaks for itself.

 Slaphead wrote:
40k is an amazing game, has brilliant quality of models, rulebooks and all the other stuff like rulebooks, supplements, novels, games etc are really really good.

Define "good" because I dont think our definitions are the same. I understand that you love the game, but you dont see any problems with the rules?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
40k is an amazing game, has brilliant quality of models, rulebooks and all the other stuff like rulebooks, supplements, novels, games etc are really really good.

Define "good" because I dont think our definitions are the same. I understand that you love the game, but you dont see any problems with the rules?

There is that one thing where GW tells you to make up your own rules. Maybe he's really good at making up his own rules, so in extension the GW rules are really good.

I think the most important single thing for any game is the enthusiasm of the players. Because GW is so big they can keep up a steady rate of new stuff coming out for 40K that is enough to keep people interested.
The models are usually good, occasionally brilliant. The background fluff is probably the best in the business, and this is enough to survive a game system that is past it's sell-by date, and littered with problems.
Dust Tactics for example, is a far better game in my opinion, but GW runs rings round Dust Studio when it comes to generating, and maintaining the all important player enthusiasm.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
40k is an amazing game, has brilliant quality of models, rulebooks and all the other stuff like rulebooks, supplements, novels, games etc are really really good.

Define "good" because I dont think our definitions are the same. I understand that you love the game, but you dont see any problems with the rules?

"Good" is pretty subjective in this case. The rules might be terrible for competitive games/tournaments, but they work great for casual games. I thoroughly enjoy a relaxed 1500 pt. game with friends, the miniatures, lore and rules make it all fun for me. So I would also say 40K is "good".

 clamclaw wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
40k is an amazing game, has brilliant quality of models, rulebooks and all the other stuff like rulebooks, supplements, novels, games etc are really really good.

Define "good" because I dont think our definitions are the same. I understand that you love the game, but you dont see any problems with the rules?

"Good" is pretty subjective in this case. The rules might be terrible for competitive games/tournaments, but they work great for casual games. I thoroughly enjoy a relaxed 1500 pt. game with friends, the miniatures, lore and rules make it all fun for me. So I would also say 40K is "good".

No, they aren't. The rules are horrible for casual players. The rules favor one army over another just cause. The man who likes Eldar Jetbikes are going to dominate other players because Phil Kelly has graced them with low points and lots of firepower. The bloated and at times ambiguous rule set are going to make things hard for casuals too (Maybe not necessarily your group) as players a good chunk of their game time just trying to work how the rules function. A tight, balanced rules set benefits everyone. I never understood why people think that bad rules are great for narrative/casual games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaphead wrote:
40k is an amazing game, has brilliant quality of models, rulebooks and all the other stuff like rulebooks, supplements, novels, games etc are really, really good.

I absolutely love everything about it. I'm sure the reason why it and GW haven't died is that despite some people complaining, the majority like me absolutely love it all. More people feel the need to complain about things and give negative reviews, whereas people that like things are less inclined to make the effort to shout about how much they enjoy it.

For me, 40k gets better and better and the amount of people still playing it speaks for itself.

Out of curiosity, have you played many other table top games?

Yeah, I would definitely agree with TheCustomLime in that games of 40k work well with friends because you're all just there to have fun and its not as much of a competition (losing probably results in a light ribbing). With any game where you're actually trying to play a structured game against someone with whom you don't have a pre-established relationship, the imbalance can create some issues.

Although to that regard, I don't know why people who are in friend gaming groups feel the need to keep up with what rules GW are pumping out. You are sure investing a lot of money in something that really isn't improving very much, so do people see it as a high priced subscription then? I just imagine if I were in a group, we'd make an agreement about what edition we like the most and play that and stay away from wasting money on product that is not improving, only changing.

Even with friends, the power curve is borderline insane. Unless your Eldar player purposely gimps himself or plays like a complete scrub he'll trounce most other people, and that's assuming someone uses the best units. Pit Eldar against let's say Dark Angels or non-Nurgle Chaos and how well will they fare even if the Eldar player doesn't take Jetbikes?

For me that's the biggest problem. The rules are awful from a casual standpoint because if I like Jetbikes and play fluffy Saim-Hann, I'll demolish anyone I play against and come off like a WAAC jackass because GW made Eldar powerful just because, but if I was a fluffy Dark Angels player I'd get screwed and lose constantly because DA are weak. They're awful from a narrative standpoint because random warlord traits and psychic powers, along with power being all over the place means that you can't have narrative battles or campaigns without modifying the core rules. They're awful from a gampeplay standpoint because there's a bloat of special rules and hundreds of dollars in additional books that increase the scale and scope of the game while not adding much of anything.

The rules are bad because Fluff Player A and Fluff Player B can have armies on opposite ends of the power curve for no discernible reason and as a result be unfairly punished either with a weak army or an overly strong army, without really any way of knowing if they're new players who decide to pick up 40k. That doesn't affect the competitive powergamer nearly as much as it affects the guy who picked up Dark Angels because he likes the look of them, loves the fluff and wants to play and then finds out he always loses. It affects the guy who picks up Eldar because having a swarm of guys on jetbikes is awesome, and steamrolls his opponents because Eldar are better.

What you have is the functional equivalent of getting two children and letting them play a game where they are asked to pick their favorite color and there's a prize associated with it. One kid says red is his favorite color, and he gets a slice of cake. The other kid says blue is his favorite color, and he gets a plate of brussel sprouts. Why? Because reasons.

 Toofast wrote:
so stop using straw man arguments like that.

I must not be getting reported that much because I have yet to receive a single PM or ban from the forum in all the time I've spent posting on here. Report away, it isn't going to magically fix GWs business model or make your position any more defensible.

It was a question, not a strawman argument. The part where I even state it is a question should clarify that for you. Telling you to stop acting unpolitely, which is against the forum rules, has nothing to do with my position either. Nice bridgebuilding anyway.

Lastly, I wonder if you even have a clue about my actual position.

They survive by momentum and the fact that there will always be more 13-15 year olds who inject fresh money before getting burned out in a few years. Enough players have enough armies that they keep at it every new edition and codex change, even if they don't enjoy it, sunk cost style.

If 40k was released fresh today it would fail on the cost of entry alone.

Also can we move away from the ridiculous idea that 40k is a "beer & pretzels" game or "casual"? So easy to pick up and play after finding a 6'x4' table, building/buying enough terrain to fill it, spending ~$200 on rules and codexes, then a further $500 (assuming $200-$250 per starter army), painting everything, then finding 2-4 hours to setup and play the game!
Jeez! Yahtzee is beer & pretzels. X-Wing is arguably beer & pretzels. 40k is NOTHING BUT.